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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Nov 1971

Vol. 256 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 40: Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.
—(Deputy Donegan.)

Before Question Time I pointed out that what was necessary was a complete review of our economic experience of the past five years and I asked that there be a reassessment of the planning procedures and the preparation of a comprehensive five-year plan to be operative from 1st January, 1973. My reason for doing that was the date of accession to the EEC.

Unless the country has clear-cut plans for adaptation and industrial development and a social programme, we will drift through the transitional period and find ourselves within the EEC even more uncertain than we are at present as regards economic development.

The necessary ingredient for the successful preparation of that kind of plan is a decision by the Cabinet to state now in 1973-78 terms the broad objectives of a socio-economic nature which must be recognised as definite commitments by the Government and by the various social partners in the Government. There is a need for adequate institutional arrangements. I would suggest a complete transition in respect of institutional arrangements particularly those relating to the IDA, to Córas Tráchtála, to the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards and the various State-sponsored bodies whose functions and objects have not been co-ordinated to bring about effective economic development.

During that period there may well be a need to establish a powerful, an efficient and a dynamic State holding corporation to assist us in the transition period and particularly to assist industries that may find themselves in severe adaptation difficulties. Above all there must be, within the Cabinet, some sort of commitment to bring about change in our own economic structure. In replies to Dáil questions and in the preparation of legislation that comes before this House there is nothing that indicates any real evidence of any deep discussion within the Cabinet on, for example, regional development or on new kinds of tax incentives that will have to be introduced when we enter the EEC. A complete change-over will be necessary in respect of export tax incentives. There is no new thinking on any of these matters. The Taoiseach is a very tired, a very confused and a very upset Corkman who is in charge of a more confused group of individuals within his Cabinet. There is no common sense of purpose in terms of economic and social strategy. This is bad for the country. Certainly, it is bad in so far as the prospects for future employment are concerned. It means that in this year we are likely to have 7,500 people unemployed as a result of redundancies in industries.

What is necessary also is the democratic involvement in economic policy by the various national voluntary organisations. I find that many employer organisations, trading organisations and trade unions within the country are by no means involved in democratic evolution of policy. It is essential that the various economic sectors and the major single industry firms, as well as the large State-sponsored enterprises in the country be fully involved, fully consulted and fully represented in the development of economic strategy in planning. So far there has been no involvement of these organisations in Government decision-making. This is a matter of profound regret and we are now seeing the results of that lack of involvement.

The overwhelming reaction that one gets from talking to any of the major State-sponsored organisations, whether they be CIE, Aer Lingus, the ESB, the Sugar Company or any other, is that they know what they would like to do. They may say that they have a five-year programme. An Foras Talúntais or the Institute of Industrial Research and Standards may say that they have a particular programme in mind but that, as soon as such a programme reaches the Cabinet, it is shoved off to the National Science Council. The general reaction from the major State-sponsored organisations is that the various Departments of State operate as autonomous entities in economic development and that there is no consultation involving these national bodies in comprehensive planning.

Such involvement is a necessity and we must have it in relation to planning in the period 1973 to 1978. Likewise, the Minister's Department must take some initiative on the introduction of industrial democracy. I suggest that, initially, they do this within the State-sponsored bodies. We have heard many pious aspirations and much window dressing from the Taoiseach regarding the need for participation and for consultation. That is all gone and the Cabinet becomes more and more introverted. The Minister for Foreign Affairs wants to run the show so far as our economic strategy is concerned in terms of admission to the EEC. The Minister for Finance blows hot and cold month by month. In the last Budget he imposed massive company taxation but three or four weeks ago that was lifted. He introduced a Prices and Incomes Bill but, again, this was dropped.

There is a need for an elementary sense of participatory democracy in the Cabinet but there is a need also to introduce industrial democracy at national level. In that regard I might give one example. This is an example that was rather berated in the House by Deputy Seán French. In respect of An Taisce Stáit I pointed out that where there were very substantial sums of money invested by the State in private companies, there should be broadly-based nominated directors to keep an eye on the taxpayers' money. I raised the matter in relation to a particular company in Cork and I pointed out that the Government had appointed four company directors. I suggested that there should be a worker representative on that board but I merely got a negative reaction from the workers concerned. From the Minister for Finance, I got an inspired reaction and, no doubt, the reaction of the Minister for Industry and Commerce would have been the same as his.

Therefore, an idea of national participation by national organisations in the Government agencies seems to have got a bad knock in recent years. I have asked also that there be an increasing attempt by the State to exercise more influence over banking and credit procedures, systems and policies. It is something of a joke that the Central Bank pronounce on high their particular version of economic policy.

The Confederation of Irish Industries follow suit, giving their interpretation. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions chase off to the Minister and the Taoiseach to give their interpretation. Finally the Minister has some kind of a reaction. There seems to be no basic cohesion and no basic system under which these organisations and the Ministers could consult rather than having the post-mortems on referenda held in the newspapers after the events.

It is a matter of profound regret that the repeated suggestions of the Labour Party that a national economic council should be set up and should be in operation by now were not adopted. The Department would be represented on that council. That council should now be debating the question of redundancy and advancing plans on policies to the Government and to the nation dealing with the question of unemployment and under-employment and the slowing down in industrial development. It has not been set up simply because, for the past three or four months, the Minister for Finance has been obdurate in trying to dictate to the trade union movement as to who they should nominate to a national economic council. The Minister should use his influence to bring the Minister for Finance to heel and he should make sure that his Department and the various organisations that consult with his Department are adequately represented on the NEC when it is set up. It should be established. It is a bit late now but better late than never.

There is an urgent need for control over the acquisition of Irish industrial enterprises by foreign groups. When the Minister promised us legislation relating to mergers I think he was talking with his tongue in his cheek. He has assured us that he will give us prices legislation and merger legislation and legislation relating to the new State company, Fóir Stáit. He hopes to have all this through the House by 16th December. Surely the Minister knows that, with the tremendous backlog of Dáil work and the large number of Bills which we have yet to get through, the likelihood of such legislation going through on this side of Christmas is rather remote.

We will find ourselves in a situation in 1972 in which the Fianna Fáil Government will propose to lead a rather stagnant and unprepared economy into the Common Market with little more protection than the kind of flimsy draft protocol which the Minister for Foreign Affairs brought back in respect of the export tax reliefs. He did not even mention the words in the protocol itself.

We demand a comprehensive public review of the state preparedness of Irish industry for entry into the EEC. I am not convinced that this is being done. If we are to enter we must prepare for it through the operation of an effective five year plan during the period of 1973 to 1978. Such a plan is quite inconceivable under Fianna Fáil rule. It is not on the cards. I do not think the Government have the capacity or the energy, or the competence to even think in those terms. They have had their chance to do so.

Through the decade from 1961 to 1971 there was a proliferation of surveys in preparation for the future. From 1961—and that is a solid ten years ago now—until 1964 we had the Committee on Industrial Organisation publishing reports on the main industrial sectors. In those reports they surveyed the problem areas in Irish industry. They made suggestions and put forward measures that should be taken to adapt to free trade conditions. Nothing happened during that period. By and large the Government did not take the necessary steps to implement effectively the many recommendations in the CIO reports. No positive programme of reorganisation and adjustment was adopted by the Government. They left each Department to get on as best they could with whatever arrangements they could make with industry.

In 1967 we had the Confederation of Irish Industries, more in desperation I think than anything else, undertaking a study of the prospects for industry generally in a free trade Europe. It published its own findings and recommended its own strategy at the time in its own publication called Challenge. In 1968 there was another proliferation of reports. I read through them. Before I came into this House I had to read them and consult the trade unions on them. If we take on the one hand the 1961 report and on the other hand the 1971 report of the CIO on the one industry, and go through the recommendations contained in those reports, we find whole areas where very little has been done by the Government. So far we have had reports on the women's outer wear industry, the tanning and dressing of leather industry, the metal trade industry, the men's outer wear industry, the paper and paper products, fruit and vegetables, hosiery and knitwear industries. We have had those reports as supplements, one might say, of the report of the CIO from 1961-1963.

One almost calls into question the purpose of going ahead with this kind of exercise. A report is published and nothing seems to happen. It is not good enough for the Minister to say: "There is not very much the Department can do. It is essentially a matter for the industries themselves. We only exhort; we only give guidance; we only try to persuade people; there is not very much more we can do beyond the publication of the reports." We must establish in Irish industry the kind of structure that will bring about the implementation of these reports. I do not think that is being done. I do not think it has been fully attempted by the Government. I appreciate that there were major difficulties. I remember that when I was in the trade union movement there were major difficulties in getting together industrial organisations to implement the recommendations in these reports on a co-operative basis.

I refer particularly to the adaptation councils and the proposals which emerged for the setting up of economic development councils for Irish industry. I accept that a great deal of bitchiness went on at the time between the interested organisations. I accept that there is an undue amount of cynicism at the idea of setting up any kind of new organisation to implement Government recommendations. I accept that a new organisation might well cut across some of the existing trade organisations. For all that, I believe that the original proposition to set up a whole range of economic development councils for industry based on a coherent national plan held out hope for the realistic implementation of the recommendations contained in those reports.

The fact that this did not happen shows the extent to which planning has fallen into disrepute. We have an ironical situation where the Confederation of Irish Industry seems to be once again rather taken up with the idea of planning. Originally it was not very co-operative in that field either with the Department of Industry and Commerce or with the Department of Finance. Now that the Confederation of Irish Industry experience, at first hand, the effects of free trade they are beginning to see the very urgent need to get together to devise some form of planning and organisational set-up which would assist industry and ensure that the opportunities open to industry will be fully availed of. Unless the Minister takes the initiative we will find in the next few years that redundancy in industry will be much more severe. It is my strong belief that this could happen unless remedial action is taken.

I was rather interested in Deputy Donegan's comments relating to the EEC and the prospects facing the Labour Party in particular in relation to the Common Market. I find myself in some agreement with what he says. The Minister devoted several pages of his speech to the prospects facing Irish industry. I would find myself saying bluntly to the Minister and the Cabinet, to coin a slogan, "No entry on the known Fianna Fáil terms". I would not be attracted towards the kind of terms that have been negotiated to date. On the information available to me, the Department of Industry and Commerce does not seem to be playing a very active role in the negotiations which seem to have been taken over almost exclusively by the Department of Foreign Affairs.

In the absence of hard information from the Government, in the absence of a White Paper, any political party would be stupid to commit itself as being in favour of general entry or to say how it will react to a referendum. Having regard to our comparitively under-developed industry, it must be clearly understood by those negotiating on our behalf that ours is not a normal situation in relation to other European economies. Our income per head of the population is about one-half of that of any one of the Six. As a member we will be a very small mini-region in Europe. We are not prophets of doom as suggested by the Minister but I am expressing legitimate fears of the Labour Party because of the fact that we would be only 1 per cent of the population of an enlarged community and because of that and because we produce only about one-half of 1 per cent of the GNP of the Ten we require special long-term arrangements and exceptionally sympathetic and favourable transitional arrangements. We do not seem to have got them. Certainly, the Department of Industry and Commerce does not seems to have done very much in getting these arrangements.

Of course the Taoiseach waits for the day when he may have a kind of referendum-cum-general election on the EEC and then get his party out of current difficulties. I do not think the country will be so sympathetic to him. I find it rather amusing when I hear balderdash on the part of Ministers about regional development and regional planning in this country arising out of the EEC. If we, at single party Government level, cannot advance any kind of policy in relation to regional economic development in this country, how can we hope to convey to the EEC what we want in terms of regional economic development?

One has only to contrast the current annual report of the IDA with statements made by various Ministers on economic development to realise the terrible dilemma facing the IDA on the question of regional economic development. In the current report, which has been referred to by the Minister, the IDA say that it is the stated objective of the Government that the aim of our regional policy should be to achieve broadly based regional expansion and to keep population disruption as low as possible; that the IDA plans, regionalwise, will cover the period 1972-1976 and will take 1971 as the base year for regional population and employment projections; that the plans would spell out the extra industrial jobs which must be created in each region over the next five years; that they will analyse the problems and prospects within each region affecting industrial development.

They will also examine economic and social development in each region and assess the availability of supporting services for industry. Off go the IDA. Jolly good luck to it. It is better to have the IDA trying to make up its mind as to what kind of regional economic strategy the country should adopt than to have the Cabinet arguing the toss, as the Minister for Finance does. The IDA has now gone ahead and has established a regional organisation, involving the setting up of the new regional headquarters of the IDA, seven regional offices throughout the country, the mid-west region, Clare, Limerick and North Tipperary being administered for the IDA by the Shannon Free Airport Development Company and the eastern region, Dublin, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow being administered from the IDA headquarters in Dublin. That is a magnificent development.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce was asked recently what the Government's policy was in relation to regional economic development. He replied last week in the Dáil and referred us to the 1969 statement of the Government on regional economic planning. I have the quotation here of the 4th November. This is an historic statement now. I quote:

I would refer the Deputy to the statement issued by the Government on the 19th May, 1969. That statement indicated that as an objective of the Government—

et cetera, et cetera—a lot of waffle. He went on to say that an inter-departmental committee are at present considering future regional policy, that they have before them the reports furnished by the Regional Development Committee and that they are also aware of the work being done by the IDA on regional industrial planning. The Minister said he expected to receive a report from the committee shortly.

It is rather peculiar democracy when the State-sponsored body does the thinking, transmits it to the Cabinet and the Cabinet then proceeds to argue the toss as to whether there will be a growth centre in Letterkenny. Presumably, since Deputy Blaney has now been screwed to the ground, his political preoccupation about a growth centre in Letterkenny will receive very low priority. It may be in Clara or in Tullamore or in Portarlington or in Portlaoise.

I am not quite sure where we are going, but I suppose it will depend on the geographical location of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in future Governments. Public servants of this country have my undying admiration for their capacity, which they have in rare abundance—the Irish people are not very much endowed with it—for profound patience and the capacity to know that it is wise and desirable to keep their counsel. Having read through the various CIO reports and the reports on growth centres of the National Industrial and Economic Council between 1964 and 1971 and when one sees the wry smile on the face of men like Mr. Whitaker when the words are mentioned, one begins to appreciate that there is no strategy for industrial development. I do not know what the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dr. Hillery, says in Brussels about Irish regional planning, because the Government have not pronounced on this matter. I asked the Minister only a few days ago if he would make available to Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas the eight regional industrial plans of the IDA when completed by that authority. The Minister replied at column 1419, Volume 256, of the Official Report of 9th November, 1971:

When the drafting of these plans has been completed by the IDA it will be necessary for the Government to consider them in the context of regional policy as a whole. When this has been done it will be circulated to Members of both Houses and made public.

I do not want to remind the IDA of the terrible fate that befell Buchanan and the many other reports that were prepared on the subject. However, at least we have this much consolation, that the IDA, taking its courage in its hands, has gone ahead and carved up the country appropriately, as it saw fit, for example, if I may quote the annual report for 1969-70:

The regional offices will provide a wide range of services for existing and newly-established industry in each region. These will include information and advisory services covering such matters as grants and other incentives, site and factory availability, labour availability, water supply, housing, communications and educational and training facilities. An after-care service for newly-established industrial projects will also be provided regionally. The offices will be responsible for administering the IDA industrial estates, advance factories and industrial housing in their regions.

The principal aims of regional planning are ...

At least one can be thankful that they have taken the initiative, and I wish them well. The former Chairman, Mr. Walsh, and Mr. Killeen have the capacity to make this contribution and to play the politics of the game well. As Mr. Killeen and the former Minister for Industry and Commerce, Mr. Colley, know, both of them have played the game rather well in the past in relation to restructuring but not without comment and not without it being fully known.

Having made these critical comments, which I think are well merited, on the absence of regional development, I wish to deal with a few remaining points in the Minister's speech. There is a need for a further evaluation within the IDA of the small industries programme. While the programme covers the country as a whole and has made some satisfactory progress, we could usefully have a reassessment of the extent to which it contributes effectively to the provision of new jobs. It was launched in 1967 to provide advice and assistance to Irish entrepreneurs in establishing and expanding their small manufacturing enterprises. I have some doubts about the extent to which it has helped the development of small industries in designated areas. The former Minister, Mr. Colley, tended to make a political plaything out of the small industries programme but then Mr. Colley has not grown up in terms of economic development. It might be useful to re-examine this programme.

The House should be gravely concerned about the very serious development in regard to our exports to the United States, which run at some 13 per cent of our total exports, £60 million a year. I believe the measures announced by President Nixon in August will have a more serious effect than the Minister has stated in pages 32 and 33 of his statement. I would hope there would be a very special effort made by the Minister, in consultation with CTT, to ensure that we, at least, maintain our existing level of exports to the United States and, if possible, increase it. I would be happy if, over the next 12 months, we were to maintain the existing proportion, but at the moment the prospects do not look very bright, and if the measures taken by the United States begin to bite more severly it could lead to more redundancies here.

I should like to congratulate CTT on their efforts in the export field. They are a dynamic organisation and have achieved very satisfactory results with not a great deal of assistance from the Government. I am glad to note they have continued the work of promotion against very difficult odds in the past 12 months.

I do not see any policy directives or guidelines from the Government to them. The organisation have been working in a vacuum but they do not seem to be getting assistance along the lines of economic development. An effort should be made to supply them with the collective views of manufacturers, trade unions and other organisations concerned rather than to have CTT scavenging around the various firms to gather economic intelligence. There is great need for co-ordination in that field and the Government could give much greater help.

I am worried also about the role of the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards. We have been rather mealy-mouthed in this respect and have never made up our minds in regard to co-ordination of industrial research throughout the country. We have the development by the IDA of a research park at Naas, admittedly for the benefit of international companies coming in here, but far more money could have been provided for the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards so that they could do much more valuable work for Irish industry. I do not regard as very encouraging the reply given by the Minister to a question on 9th November that research and development grants approved to date had been in respect of only 23 firms. I consider this to be far too small. I suggest that there should be greater liaison between the IDA and the Institute for Research and Standards.

This brings me to the volume of criticism one can now hear of Government policy in regard to failure to co-ordinate the organisations in the industrial field, to co-ordinate their work and their policies in an effort to ensure they do not overlap. Overlapping in this respect has gone on for many years, and one does not need a crystal ball to appreciate the extent of this overlapping in the day-to-day work of these agencies. Through lack of moral courage in this area there is a situation in which many officers, senior staff of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the various other Departments, spend their time running from meeting to meeting, trying to prepare memoranda and reports for the many agencies we have in this relatively small country.

As I have said, there should be more co-ordination between the IDA, Córas Tráchtála, AnCO, the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards and the others. From reading annual reports of these agencies and from listening to replies and statements in the House by the Minister, it seems to me that these companies are individually pursuing their own tasks, possibly from a sense of national identity and purpose, and their collective impact could be far greater if we had a tough and courageous Minister, a tough Cabinet and particularly a tough Taoiseach—and remember he was Minister for Industry and Commerce at a critical stage of development. We need to have a long cool look at the policy being implemented in respect of these organisations with a view to ridding them of the confused functions and the proliferation of work which is bewildering them at the moment.

I strongly urge that the Government should take their courage in their hands immediately and implement the promise they made to co-ordinate and to rationalise these organisations' work so as to ensure that the £30 million to £40 million they yearly dispense to Irish industry will be effectively distributed and effectively administered. It is to that end that I urge a strong and thorough-going root and branch evaluation of the work of these organisations. This has not been undertaken because the towel was thrown in two years ago by Deputy Colley when the going became rough.

I want to deal with a worry I have in relation to the export tax incentive scheme and the recent results at Brussels, confirmed by the Minister for Foreign Affairs. I ask the Minister to produce the text of the agreement in this respect between Ireland and the Community. We have had assurances from the Minister in reply to questions and I should like to quote Deputy B. Lenihan on behalf of the Minister for Foreign Affairs in this regard:

To quote the Minister:

The position has been clearly established that export tax reliefs are necessary for our economic and industrial development and that we can continue them as based on my intensive discussions with the Community on 19th October, the understanding reached there and the agreement in the text of the proposed Protocol.

The Minister went on to say:

As regards the reference in my statement to the Community on the 19th October on commitments in relation to export tax reliefs, the position established is that firms in respect of which commitments had been entered into at the time of the completion by the Commission after accession of its examination of our industrial incentives will continue to benefit from export tax reliefs for the full period of entitlement under existing legislation.

I would await the White Paper before giving formal credence to the Minister on that statement because, certainly, if one takes the introductory statement by the Community Delegation of 19th October, 1971, it is not very explicit. It merely says:

The Irish Delegation has also explained how the exporting industries are supported by tax relief. In this respect it is also a question of measures the aim of which is to do away with economic and social imbalances by the development of industry.

It goes on to state:

With regard to State aids for regional purposes it should be pointed out that, under the terms of Article (3) (a) aid to promote the economic development of areas where the standard of living is abnormally low or where there is serious under-employment may be considered to be compatible with the Common Market.

Again it is not terribly explicit in terms of the Minister's statement.

The text of the Protocol itself is, with due respect to the Minister, a lot of cliché-style waffle. I will read these paragraphs for the Minister, because he has been congratulated by Deputy Donegan for protecting Irish export tax reliefs for Irish industry. The very short Protocol says that the member states:

Recall that the fundamental objectives of the Community consist in the steady improvement of the living standards and working conditions of the peoples of the Member States, together with the harmonious development of their economies by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions;

Take note of the fact that the Irish Government has embarked upon the implementation of a policy of industrialisation and economic development designed to align the standard of living in Ireland with those of other European nations and to eliminate under-employment while progressively evening out regional differences in levels of development; Recognise it to be in their common interest that the objectives of this policy be so attained;

Agree to recommend to this end that the Community institutions implement all the means and procedures laid down by the Treaties, particularly by making adequate use of the Community resources intended for the realisation of the Community's above-mentioned objectives;

Recognise in particular that, in the application of Articles 92 and 93, it will be necessary to take into account the objectives of economic expansion and improvement of the population's standard of living.

I do not think that one has to travel to Brussels to get that in the form of a Protocol. Frankly, it does not mean a great deal if this is to be the Protocol and the magic formula.

I hope that, when the White Paper is published, we will have some background data and more detail of the precise agreement reached between the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Community on the continuation of our export tax relief system for existing industries at 1990; and of course any new industry coming in between now and the date of accession would have the benefit of the current system. If that is so, the text of whatever letter or minute of whatever arrangement was reached between the Minister and the Community should be published and made available. It certainly is not available in the statement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, apart from the statement:

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the question would arise in this connection of the commitments which we had previously entered into. We shall, of course, have to honour these commitments and we shall be ready to discuss in all its aspects, the changeover to whatever new incentive system is devised and we shall collaborate in solving these problems in an appropriate way.

There is no paragraph, no sentence, in the statement by the Minister to the ministerial meeting of 19th October which indicates that there has been acceptance by the Community of the Irish system of export tax reliefs, and frankly until I see it, I intend to keep an open mind on it, because the greatest single advantage we have and the most enticing inducement we have for economic development is of course the 20 year tax holiday. Whatever we have, we certainly have that exemption from tax on profit from exports made in Ireland for 15 years and partial exemption for a further five years. That inducement has been a major factor in the development of exportoriented industries in this country and I certainly would be extremely concerned that it should be diluted in any way.

The Minister is to be commended for his promise to bring in new legislation relating to prices. I think he was a bit sweeping when he said in his opening statement:

All proposals to increase prices will be submitted to the Commission for consideration and the Commission will furnish me with a recommendation on each such proposal.

If one contrasts that with the statement made by the Minister in public on September 9th, one cannot see that that is the precise procedure intended, as I gather from the Minister that the present requirement of three months advance notice of intention to increase prices will be modified so as to require one month's advance notice and, as I understand it as well, a proposed price increase could be put into effect on the expiration of the month's notice unless the commission advise that it should be the subject of a detailed examination.

I certainly welcome the introduction of this legislation but I would point out very strongly that it is belated, that it is years overdue, and that it has—to use a Blaney term—been screwed out of the Minister because of the current extreme situation in respect of price increases. It is not necessary to be a Deputy to point out that over the past two years prices have been rising at an unprecedented rate. Between November, 1963, and November, 1970, alone the consumer price index went up by 18½ per cent. In the past 12 months prices have gone up by well over 10 per cent and, while prices have been rising rapidly in most countries over this period, the increases in prices here have been significantly greater than the increases in any of the other countries. The price increases we are now experiencing over the past 12 months give rise to concern, and in some cases even to alarm.

It is a matter of some serious concern to the House to note that the prices legislation, which the Minister now promises to bring in and hopes to circulate in the near future, will not begin to have effect before at least mid-1972. It will be at least mid-1972 before it begins to have an effect and before the surveillance system of prices comes into operation effectively. It should be stressed that in the national agreement of the employerlabour conference the parties agreed that it was essential that the rate of increase in cost and in prices should be moderated substantially. That agreement has been in operation for a long time but there has been very little real action by the Government in respect of excessive price increases. The Labour Party accept the view that the mere setting-up of surveillance machinery does not of itself prevent higher prices particularly with regard to imported goods or materials. We cannot do a great deal where money incomes outstrip productivity. There are well-defined limitations on the extent to which price rises generally can be controlled. Had an effective system of price surveillance been in operation over the past 12 months, price increases would have been limited to a minimum and price or charges increases without justification would have been prevented.

The public at large have good reason to believe that, in some instances, prices have risen on an unjustifiable basis, on an excessive basis and on a selective basis in some industries. There is need for the Minister to bring in this legislation as a matter of urgency. This House, instead of driving ourselves crazy about the price of honour, would have done better work if the Government had realised the seriousness of the position and put legislation through the House instead of engaging in power politics on the part of Fianna Fáil. We have had an obsession with this kind of thing over the past two years.

The Minister has shelved the proposal of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions for the setting-up of local price committees. In the submission made to the Minister by the Congress it was pointed out that public involvement in the price surveillance machinery was needed. It was suggested that this should take the form of local price committees which should be set up in the main centres of population throughout the country and that these committees should be representative of the Chambers of Commerce, related local organisations of local trades' councils and of appropriate voluntary organisations such as the Irish Housewives Association, and that they should also include public representatives, who should exercise some influence on prices at local level. Certain statutory functions should devolve on these committees. There is no reason why, in a very large number of trading establishments, adequate price lists should not be displayed. With the introduction of decimal currency there has been no effort on the part of many traders to publish and maintain price lists in public areas of their premises.

Many tourists have told me of going into lounge bars and of finding enormous differences in prices as between one style of premises and another. The price of a drink varies from one type of premises to another and we have pub-style premises, singing-pub premises, take-away food stalls, ballad-singing pubs and hotels. There is a wide variation in drink prices. We speak of tourists not coming in, but many tourists, who have come, have complained that on the east coast they have been charged varying prices for drinks and food and that price lists were not displayed openly. Prices and service charges should be clearly displayed. Local price committees could watch such matters. Local citizens would also be involved in this work, thus ensuring adequate price surveillance at local level.

The Minister has not rejected the proposition of Congress for local committees but has said that he has requested the new commission to consider the proposal. It may be some time before the commission examines this point. I was disappointed to hear that the proposal of Congress that the National Prices Commission should take over the functions and powers of the Fair Trade Commission was not acceptable to the Minister. The Minister has decided on the National Prices Commission as a "never-never land" between the prices section and another section of the Department of Industry and Commerce. Presumably staff arrangements have now been made. I welcome the setting-up of the commission and hope that the legislation will pass through the House quickly.

The members of the House fully appreciate the action being taken by such organisations as the Irish Housewives Association. With the absence of effective local price commissions it is understandable that these organisations should engage in certain actions at local level, such as asking housewives to omit from their shopping lists certain items on which they feel they have excessive price increases. There are wide disparities which are noticeable. I asked the Taoiseach on the 20th October to give a list of the items included on the consumer price index which increased in price by more than 15 per cent over the 12 months ending 21st August. The Taoiseach gave me the percentage change on all the items. The list shows that sirloin steak rose in price by 16 per cent; corn beef, 16 per cent; whiting 14 per cent; cured fish 16 per cent; tomatoes 134 per cent; carrots 26 per cent; turnips 21 per cent; cabbage 30 per cent; cauliflowers 31 per cent. I do not think one can blame the National Wage Agreement for that kind of increase in a 12-month period. Margarine prices increased by 13 per cent; apples 27 per cent; oranges 18 per cent; sugar 13 per cent; jelly 5 per cent; chocolate bars 17 per cent; minerals 13 per cent; women's outer clothing, coats, woollen-lined, lowpriced 16 per cent; two-piece suits, worsted readymade 11 per cent; thread 15 per cent; coal 15 per cent. We also have today's newspaper announcement of a substantial increase in the price of coal. Rates and water charges in owner-occupied dwellings over the past 12 months have gone up by 22 per cent, which is quite substantial. These are the type of increases which we certainly feel should be investigated by the Minister because they have certainly had a dramatic impact on the standard of living of workers in this country. It is about time that legislation to control those prices was circulated in this House and that we got down to debating it. It does not look as though we will have it in operation for at least another six to nine months.

I welcome the decision of the Minister to include under the system of price control new houses, all services, professional fees, insurance charges and the profits of importers and distributors under a new system. It is high time that these areas were covered in legislation. There is great urgency to complete the legislation relating to the control and investigation of monopolies, takeovers and mergers. There have been some very questionable developments relating to take-overs in Irish industry in the past two years. As well as take-overs by foreign monopolies there have been some quite dubious internal absorptions and realisation of assets by some of our brighter new industrial rich in this country and I am sure Deputy Donegan knows whom I am referring to.

Indeed I do. The mohair suits and the Taca members.

Taca and some people who have now emigrated with the loot. As it is the tradition of the House not to name such persons I will wait for the legislation. There is urgent need for the Minister to be in a position to make orders for the prohibition of mergers or take-overs or in the case of monopolies where the breaking up of a business and the sale of the assets is not in the national interest and the public interest and particularly where such take-overs would restrict competition in a manner which would be quite contrary to the public interest. I have a feeling that the Minister, as he has been in regard to prices legislation, is coming in too late.

His predecessor was asked three years ago to do something about this.

I would accept that. I believe the Minister now appreciates that, for example, in the distributive trade there have been very substantial realignments, take-overs, mergers and rationalisation, some of it not of an entirely desirable nature.

It is important to point out that the Minister's predecessor, the late Seán Lemass, had no hesitation in bringing in the Control of Manufactures Act, 1936 and successive Governments have made it quite clear that foreign control of certain key industries in this country was not particularly welcome in the public interest. I welcome foreign investment into Ireland but I do not welcome the take-over of domestic outlets, particularly in the distributive trade or of certain manufacturing companies. I do not wish to see externally controlled monopolies developing in this country. We have to have a coexistence in this country of native Irish capital blending in successfully with outside foreign concerns who are contributing to investment in this country. We have to have balance in this matter and I do not think the Minister has ensured that that balance has been maintained to date.

I am concerned at the final pages of the Ministers statement, where he referred to the fact that he is about to grant to 16 companies non-exclusive petroleum prospecting licences for the general surveying of the balance of our designated shelf area. I welcome both mineral, oil and gas exploration generally. I feel the Minister should take a very careful look at the continental shelf area in respect of the non-exclusive petroleum prospecting licences which are now being sought. I do not know the 16 companies and I do not know very much about it but in the public interest I feel one should ask the Minister for further information, more particularly as the company he named, Marathon Petroleum Ireland Limited, have had some recent information from the three test wells in the area under their control off the Old Head of Kinsale.

There is need for the Minister to give more information on this subject. He must ensure, as the British Government and European Governments have ensured, that the greatest possible benefits accrue from the commercial exploitation of gas fields off our coast. Close surveillance will have to be kept over all stages of the exploration. There was public criticism voiced of the original agreement by Seán Lemass and Marathon Oil.

Since we have been talking ad nauseam in this House about Northern Ireland, I should have thought the Minister would have taken this opportunity of making some reference to the further development of trade between north and south. The majority of people in both areas believe that greater progress would be made if there were more co-operation, more co-ordination and a closer exchange of trade. We have the same soil, the same climate and the same proximity to markets. We have problems in raising capital for industrial development. Northern Ireland could teach us lessons about industrial growth centres, industrial training, planning and housing. There is a common field for action between the Republic and Northern Ireland. There could be joint promotional campaigns. Some of our transport problems could be solved by greater co-operation. Joint research bodies would pay a dividend on both sides of the Border. I trust the Minister will hold out some hope of such co-operation and co-ordination. At the beginning of the 1960s it looked as if we were on the point of a major break-through. The late Seán Lemass certainly made an effort in that direction. So did the present Taoiseach when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce. This might be an auspicious time to initiate a closer liaison and we should not, as it were, throw in the towel.

The Labour Party spokesman, Deputy Michael O'Leary, is in Belfast at a meeting of the Labour Party there, to which he was invited, and last evening he asked me to substitute for him in this debate and to put on record the reason for his absence today.

Normally my contribution is brief but, because of the excellence of the Minister's speech, covering every single aspect of industry, I shall not be able to follow my normal practice. I congratulate the Minister on his speech. It is an excellent record of what has been done. I hope—it may be a faint hope—that some of the Opposition Deputies will read it to see what is happening in Ireland today. I am very optimistic. Not so long ago in this country a growth rate of 3 per cent would have been regarded as very good compared with the stagnation of the 1950s when there was no growth rate at all.

Employment is increasing. It is regrettable that there are people who are out of work, but the regret is tempered somewhat by the fact that we are going through a transitional period and it is encouraging to know that more jobs are actually being created than are being lost. When there was talk initially about entering the EEC the Government stated frankly that there would be a certain amount of redundancy because of rationalisation. Only a week ago I was listening to a programme on the radio. The bacon industry was being discussed. There are something like 38 bacon factories in the country and the fact is that 10 factories could do the job more efficiently and in a manner from which better dividends would accrue to the industry and to the workers. Rationalisation is a must and I am confident the Government will not shirk their duty in encouraging rationalisation in industry. Where workers lose employment as a result of rationalisation it should be possible to provide alternative employment in factories in the same or contiguous areas.

We have here today very solidly based industries, industries which came in here with the prospect of the EEC in mind and also because of the very generous grants available. The grants themselves would not have been sufficient without the possibility of Ireland some day going into EEC. When it seemed that EEC entry was off applications dropped considerably but once the talks re-opened the tide turned with more applications than previously. Also, with the announcement that the Government, through skilful negotiation, have managed to retain the same benefits for industry coming here—tax free concessions et cetera—up to our accession to EEC, I believe that we shall have many more industries coming here as a result of this.

Industrial organisation has proceeded very rapidly. We have exhorted industrialists to modernise. We have offered all forms of incentive grants for this purpose. The index to the Minister's speech refers to industrial grants, the small industries programme, re-equipment grants, technical assistance and so on. We must adapt. I do not think there is an industrialist in the country today who does not realise that, if he is in difficulty, he can immediately get in touch with the Department which will guide him as to whom he should see about his particular problem.

I am glad to see from the Minister's speech that these efforts to encourage industrialists to adapt and move with the times are to be intensified. I referred to this matter some time ago here when I said that there may be factories in the country which are not modernising and perhaps not aware of their responsibility to their employees, and that, possibly, the Department should cast an eye over such factories that did not appear to be moving with the times and give them the necessary encouragement.

One of the skills which we have learned rapidly in the past ten years is marketing: producing goods is no use if you have not market expertise to sell them. Therefore, I am happy to compliment and give credit to the fine people we have in the IDA and in Córas Tráchtála who are doing a first class job. To suggest that they need encouragement from the Government or that the Government have not a sufficiently strong policy is, I think, incorrect. These people fully understand Government policy and are interpreting it in a manner of which the Government can well be proud.

In regard to the voluntary wage agreement earlier this year I believe the workers themselves now realise that this kind of arrangement is far more satisfactory for the economy as a whole than granting of large wage increases to certain sectors causing other sectors to seek similar increases so that the cost of living goes up immediately and the wage increase they got is worth nothing. A planned voluntary wage agreement is the only thing, in my view, that can really work for the benefit of the whole community.

The Minister referred to the fact that the impression seemed to be widespread that redundancies arising through closures in manufacturing industry were due primarily, if not entirely, to the removal of protection under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. I must agree with that: this is the impression given, wilfully, I think, in many cases. The Minister does not deny that the freeing of trade has been a factor in some of the closures but it is only one. As he says, there are many other factors also responsible, such as product obsolescence—it is not necessary to repeat what the Minister said but I hope it will be recorded as fully as possible in tomorrow's newspapers because it is informative.

Without the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement we might be in serious trouble because, if we were now getting ready to go into EEC without having had to ginger up our industries, we would be in a difficult position. I have not heard from Brussels that there is any reluctance on the part of EEC to accept Ireland because of the state of our economy. Ours is an expanding economy which will continue to expand and at a faster rate than in the last few years because conditions throughout the world have eased somewhat.

I was as disappointed as many others when the US Government found it necessary to put on a 10 per cent surcharge. For a country fighting hard to increase its exports it was pretty tough but it is probably better that they should impose this 10 per cent surcharge than that the American economy should collapse through failing to act in an economic crisis. We should be in far greater difficulty then.

I do not mean to imply that we are in dire straits now. I think we have dealt with this matter very well and I should like to refer to the magazine Export issued by CTT, Volume 5, No. 2, 1971. I shall read a couple of paragraphs from the leading article “Action Stations” in which they said:

In spite of difficulties 1970 was, in terms of total sales, a record year for Irish exporters in the US market. Subsequent increases gave promise of still better results in 1971; but even so the present year has been overshadowed from the start by the protectionist threat, with a growing demand from American industry for the extension of restrictions on imports of competing products. The fears aroused by this development were vindicated by the introduction of the 10 per cent surcharge in August.

It goes on to say:

From the Irish exporters' point of view the timing of the surcharge was particularly unfortunate in that it came at a juncture when things seemed to be looking up after a period of relative stagnation and tough conditions in the market. In the event, the effects of the measure have hardly been catastrophic; but it is, and will remain, what any such impost must be: a nuisance, an irritant—a hindrance to the smooth flow of commerce.

It goes on:

One must wish success to the United States Government in its efforts to overcome its problems, galvanise the economy and restore normal trading conditions. Meanwhile, it looks as though we shall have to run faster, so to speak, to preserve our position in the market.

When the English surcharge was put on some years ago we had to run faster and I do not think it did us any harm. In fact, as a result of the extra effort which had to be put in by every member of this community, when the surcharge was lifted we did not slide back, we had increased our efficiency and technology to that extent. Córas Tráchtála are giving extra grants to industrialists to go to America to look further into the field there. They say here:

Quite recently, the members of a newly-formed exporters' co-operative group returned to Ireland with satisfactory orders resulting from their initial promotional tour of the USA and Canada. "Our experience has shown", stated this group's spokesman, "that, whatever problems and difficulties the surcharge may generate, it need not be a fatal or even a serious bar to successful exporting." On the contrary, with close attention to such factors as design standards and market requirements and with increased and vigorous promotion "Irish exporters should be able not only to maintain but enhance their position". The surcharge reinforces a lesson that today is as valid as ever.

It has been said before that for this nation really to get going we must have somebody threaten us. They used to say that if somebody would threaten to take the Irish language away again maybe more people would learn it. I know that is irrelevant to this debate but what I am trying to say should be clear.

It is interesting to note in regard to industrial grants that in the year ending 31st March, 1971, grants amounting to £24 million were approved in respect of 78 projects. These figures include grants totalling £7½ million for projects in the designated areas and grants totalling £16½ million for non-designated areas. Out of the total of £94 million which has been allocated since the scheme began £32½ million was for designated areas, in other words areas which needed industry. This shows the success of the Government's policy in scaling the grants in such a way that people will tend to drift towards these areas if at all possible, if their kind of industry will allow it, in order to benefit from the extra grants.

The small industries programme has been a very considerable success. Communities and development committees have seen the advantage of working to get industries into their towns. The success of the re-equipment grants is shown by the number of people who have applied for them. The Minister has told us that up to March 31st, 1971, a total of 1,018 projects have been approved for grants. That is pretty good.

The success of the industrial estates at Waterford and Galway has been fantastic. The people of Waterford and Galway will be very thankful in the years to come when they see the success of these two schemes.

The Department of Industry and Commerce have missed nothing. They have their advance factory programme which is being administered through the IDA. The Minister said that a panel of consultants had been set up to advise on the implementation of the advance factory programme of the IDA and a team has been appointed to prepare the ground, to find out where key workers are, et cetera, for any particular industry that may come in. This is first-class. There may have been some closures at Shannon Airport but the future prospects for Shannon are very good. I would love to think that may be some day we might see Douglas and Boeing put up a factory there for the assembling and the servicing of their planes.

From Shannon to Seattle is quite a long way. That might be a very good situation for a factory.

May I ask if the Deputy said "planes"?

Deputy Briscoe, please.

If the Deputy was listening instead of trying to interrupt —just read it in the Official Report.

Was it a factory for planes? Out of courtesy the Deputy could elaborate a little.

I am glad that the Minister has again increased the capital of the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards. I should like to see the Minister make this £2 million next year and £3 million the year after. This is one of the most valuable institutions we have. The work the institute have performed is excellent. I wish more members of this House would go and see what they do there. The aid they have given to industry could not be purchased outside because they take such an interest in every project that is put before them. They are performing an excellent job and this will become more and more important. I remember somebody once saying: "He who buys technology is the slave of he who sells it." When you develop your own "know-how", and this institute are helping people in this regard, you are in a very good position to compete with whoever is on the market. Most times when you get "know-how" from abroad further developments have taken place in the meantime and the "know-how" you are getting may possibly have been used previously, although with today's communications maybe not but you pay an awful lot for it. It is very desirable that bigger grants should be given to this body.

The growth in our exports has been fantastic. The exports achieved by several individual firms this year are equivalent to the combined exports of about a dozen firms ten years ago. Semperit which was set up in 1969 have achieved figures in the region of £1 million. Deputy O'Connell should be pleased about that as it is in his own constituency.

I suppose I dare not interrupt the Deputy?

What I said before was so clear that it is obvious the Deputy was not listening. Because of the distance between Shannon and Seattle I would like to see Douglas and Boeing set up a factory in Shannon for the building and servicing of their planes.

We had one catastrophic experience with regard to planes not very far from my constituency.

Acting Chairman

Deputy O'Connell will have an opportunity of making his speech later.

The only graveyard in the country with a swimming pool in the front of it.

I believe TWA are coming to Dublin Airport.

One can never tell; we might do a deal with them. In the magazine Export it is stated:

Chrysler Ireland Ltd. is to export Irish assembled cars to the UK. The Irish company has been designated a source plant of the parent company, Chrysler United Kingdom Ltd., and initially will be exporting 3,500 cars per annum, representing exports of £2 million.

There has been a great deal of anxiety about the car assembly industry but this kind of thing is very encouraging. I am sure many people do not know about it.

It is interesting to note that four out of every ten jobs in industry today are dependent on our export trade and the ratio is likely to increase. Córas Tráchtála have been very energetic in the development of the design centre. The Kilkenny Workshops have produced some wonderful things. I have seen some beautiful Irish silver on sale in our shops which was a great credit to our craftsmen. Even though we have to employ people from abroad to train our craftsmen their work is proof that Irish people are capable of learning crafts and producing wonderful articles.

When the IDA are looking at a project one of the biggest problems is the question of management. A project will only be as good as its members. If management is inefficient the project may never get off the ground. It is important that we spend time and money training management. On the record before us today I have no doubt that we have gone very far in achieving this. There is a great shortage of skilled management and we must train people for our future needs.

There is a greater awareness amongst manufacturers of the importance of selling Irish goods and there is a vague awareness on the part of the public to buy Irish. People should look at Irish goods first and if they cannot get what they want then they can buy foreign goods but at least their consciences will be a little bit clearer. In most instances where Irish products are available the quality is as good as if not better than that of the imported article.

Mining development has been very successful. The amount of money which the mining companies have had to invest is phenomenal. At page 33 of the magazine Export it is stated:

The creation of new jobs is recognised to be one of Ireland's major priorities and it is significant that the mining industry now directly employs almost 2,000 people, a total which will rise steadily as recent finds are brought into production.

I am sure everyone will agree with that sentiment. The article continues:

Quoting financial figures for the industry, the booklet...

entitled "Tynagh: a case history of mining in Ireland",

...says that although Ireland's mining industry has only emerged as a viable factor in the economy during the past six years, it now accounts for £20 million of exports. The Tynagh mine has been in production since 1965. Since then it has produced £27,325,000 worth of concentrates for export. It has invested a total of £8,756,000 in the development of the mine and paid a total of £2,500,000 in wages. Other payments inside the Irish economy came to £6,744,000.

There has been considerable investment despite the risks involved.

I am pleased to see that the Shannon Mail Order Service is doing well. Sales have risen from £9,000 within the first two years to £528,000 in the last year and £132,000 worth of parcels were sold to duty-free shop customers.

It is also stated in Export:

A large expanse of Irish-produced vinyl flooring meets the eye at the arrivals and departures pier to the new passenger/jumbo jet terminal at Shannon Airport, where 5,000 square yards of special mark-resistent Gerflex "Classic" tiles developed at the company's new £1 million factory at Carrickmacross, County Monaghan have been laid...

Only a few years ago we would have imported this flooring. The fact that we are able to produce so many products at home is something we should all be proud of.

Export magazine referred to the following item:

A shipment of £120,000 worth of sugar-beet harvesters manufactured by the Irish Sugar Company left Waterford for King's Lynn, Norfolk.

It is amazing that a country which has not an industrial or business background, a country that in all its previous existence has had an agricultural economy, is able to compete in a tough business world and hold its own. I know it is natural for the Opposition to be critical of Government policies and to emphasise the points they consider can do most harm to the Government but the record speaks for itself. When this year and next year are out——

The Deputy's party will be out.

The Deputy has been saying that since 1965 and his predecessor said it before him. I realise that the Opposition are suffering from a sense of frustration and this is understandable.

I sat on the benches opposite——

I know that is so. I am sure the Deputy does not envy us our job and I do not blame him.

The Deputy need not worry because I shall be over there again.

I congratulate the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the work of his Department. I should like to pay tribute to the patriotic service of the members of the IDA, CTT, the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards and the many other relevant bodies. The people in these organisations are not only doing this valuable work because it is their job but are doing it for their country.

I agree with the previous speaker that the Minister for Industry and Commerce gave us a comprehensive statement. However, I do not share his optimism with regard to the condition of our economy. In the past few months there have been considerable redundancies and everybody is anxious about this problem. There is no sign of any reduction in the unemployment numbers.

In every country in the world people have been moving from the land into industry and this tendency has been very pronounced in this country. Forty years ago our economy was based completely on agriculture but this is no longer the case. Successive Ministers for Industry and Commerce have stated that it is their aim to create more jobs but this has not happened. The employment figures remain at the same level and, although new factories are opened from time to time and the golden key is still handed to the current Minister for Industry and Commerce, there is no escaping the fact that many factories have been closing down. This may be due to the fact that uneconomic units have been opened. I have the impression that we have concentrated too much on factories for which we have not the raw materials available in this country. That is probably one of the reasons we face such unsettled conditions with regard to industry.

I would not go so far as to say we have a very sick economy but we definitely have an ailing economy. The reason is that in the last four or five years we have moved into a high cost economy. Prices have been rising but we have been told by many Deputies that this can be offset by more efficient production. I do not see how we can get more efficient production if we are not able to sell our products. In order to maintain continuity of production we must market efficiently. We must face the fact that it costs us more now to produce the materials we manufacture than it did several years ago and because of this we have difficulty in marketing our products at an economic price.

Last week I was told that a subsidiary of a leather factory in Gorey were closing down. I do not know if the factory are closing for good but the employees have been given notice that there will not be continuity of employment for some time to come. I do not know if the factory are closing because they were not able to market the goods but the management have said the reason for the closure is lack of orders. The same thing happened about 12 months ago when a factory was closed for a period of six weeks as they were unable to market their products. Because of the higher cost of production they were obliged to charge a higher price for their goods than they did a few years ago when they were in full production. In this instance they were manufacturing a high-class product which was not over-produced. It was simply a question of costs. We must face this fact.

When the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement was introduced some years ago it was thought that it would be the solution to our problems. We were told that employment would increase, that emigration would cease and that our economy would get a tremendous boost. That did not materialise simply because we were not in a position to produce sufficient goods economically in order to overcome the difficulties of free trade between ourselves and the United Kingdom. This should bring home to those who manage our industrial concerns that we are not competitive. When we were faced, to a small extent. with free trade we did not succeed. The result has been increased unemployment.

Whether we are able in the broader complex of the EEC to face those difficulties remains to be seen. It is probable we will have greater investment of capital here. We will have it because in the EEC they have not got sufficient labour content to meet existing demands. With our high unemployment figures and the factory space that is available at a cheaper price than on the Continent, we should have great opportunities for investment; but of course we must get the right type of investment. We need people who are prepared to come here, invest their money in industry and employ our people. Such investment would improve and increase our balance of trade and payments. However, while we may get that sort of investment in the early stages of our accession to the EEC, we will not get it as a continuing process unless we are able to eradicate all the difficulties and the disadvantages which our industries are facing now.

The Government have banked all their hopes and desires for the future on our accession to the EEC. They hope that membership will solve all problems and difficulties, that it will solve the difficulties in relation to our balance of payments, to our balance of trade, to our employment and in relation to continuing emigration. There is every possibility of doing that but in order to do so we must put our own house in order. I do not see any sign of that being done.

This party have advocated, as one of the basic conditions of our policy, that there should be a prices and incomes policy but Fianna Fáil will not accept that advice. They have talked about trade agreements, about agreements with the trade unions and they have talked a lot about almost everything but they will not talk about the basic need for a prices and incomes policy. The Minister told us that legislation of this nature is being introduced. Such legislation would be welcome—better late than never— but we must consider all the damage that has been done to our economy by the lack of such a policy. We have a very high cost of living and much suffering has been caused to many people particularly those in the small income groups because of the inaction of the Government in regard to introducing any proper policy to control prices. Of course, whenever there is an increase in prices, there will be a demand for increases in wages. There is no point in making trade agreements unless there is something solid to back them. I am charging the Government with living on a day-to-day basis. When problems become very bad they introduce a palliative and this is what they are doing in introducing, at this stage, a prices and incomes policy. This is something that should have been done ten or 12 years ago. Perhaps the Minister will tell us why his party did not introduce such a policy earlier. They have refused to listen to the counsel offered to them from these benches. I suppose it is accepted that advice offered by a major Opposition party is not taken up by a Government party because they are of the opinion that they can run their own affairs better than can anyone else. However, history has proved that, certainly during the past three or four years, they are unable to run their own affairs. This is evident from the mess that has been made of the economy. I do not know whether the reason for this can be attributed to the Government's preoccupation with other matters but, at any rate, no attempt has been made to deal with the country's problems.

One matter that is causing considerable anxiety to everybody is the fact that big combines, not necessarily outside combines, are taking over smaller businesses. If one examines these combines closely one will find that while they may be functioning under national names and national directors, a lot of them are based outside the country. The tendency for firms to be taken over by big outside interests has reached a dangerous stage and nobody seems to have a remedy for the situation. At one stage if somebody wished to come in here and invest a certain amount of money we welcomed him but now the situation is that most small businesses are being taken over and that is what I consider to be the danger zone.

I suppose it is hard to blame any Irishman who may be running a small factory, or maybe two or three small factories in different parts of the country, if he should accept an offer from an outside concern for his business. As well as buying him out, such a concern may offer him a directorship on the board of the company and to pay him a good salary. Naturally, he will opt for such an offer because he has been struggling for so long against spiralling costs. The Government must be aware of this tendency and I want to warn them about the danger of it. I do not know whether it is possible for them to exercise any control over the situation at this stage, but, at least, they should endeavour not to let it go any further and to examine very carefully any suggestion of monopolies or transfers.

The Minister referred to legislation to deal with monopolies. Again, this is something that should have been done years ago. I regret to say that these monopolies and big concerns that we have here are subscribing to Government funds and therefore they are getting benefits and advantages that small national concerns cannot get. Consequently, our national image is being eroded gradually. The sooner we wake up to that fact the better.

This brings me to the potential of our continental shelf. Any country in the world that is producing oil has a sound economy. For instance, the small country of Kuwait can do more with its economy than other countries 20 times its size. Oil explorations are being carried out on our continental shelf. Here again, it is the big combines that are involved. I do not think it would be fair to name companies here because they are not in a position to reply but everybody knows the ones I have in mind. If natural gas is found the benefits should accrue to the State. I would like the Minister to tell us what benefit would accrue to the State in the event of oil being found. Very little I would say. What benefits would accrue in respect of employment? Of course, any such big concern would contribute to Exchequer revenue by paying income tax in the way anyone else pays it but the wealth that would accrue from oil would go mainly to that concern. Everybody knows that oil is one of the greatest assets that any country can have.

Austria was a comparatively poor country until a dozen or so years ago. She discovered that she had oil and, therefore, she was able to expand considerably and all within the confines of the state were able to benefit from that expansion. We are not benefiting because the big combines are here already and they are getting a monopoly. They get an exploratory licence and, when they find something, it is not thrown open to tender, although we passed a Bill in this House in which we claimed complete rights over our Continental Shelf. What rights have we now? We are probably going to sell out. We do not know because we are not told. We are probably going to sell out our full rights to any findings to some company. How does the nation benefit from that?

These are matters that should be looked into. These are rights for which Deputies should fight because they are national rights. If we have control of any findings we get the full benefit from them. The Arab States were prepared to go even to the extent of closing the Suez Canal to get their rights and, when the outside interests found that the states concerned said "Those are our rights", there was nothing they could do. We never do that here. We hand away every decent asset we have. We have done that for years. We have done it for as long as I have been in this House.

The question of marketing is, of course, of paramount importance and, perhaps, never more so than it is today. Córas Tráchtála deal with projections in relation to export markets and they helped considerably. I do not think we do enough to communise our industries to enable them to work as one body and concentrate on exports. One of our exports is Irish whiskey. The Scotch whisky distillers spend ten times as much as the Irish whiskey distillers on advertising to popularise their whisky. I think you will agree with me, Sir, that there is no comparison between the quality of the two products. Irish whiskey is a potstill whiskey. It is an acquired taste. Anybody who drinks Irish whiskey never wants to drink Scotch whisky again. Scotch whisky is distilled. It is a different product altogether.

In some instances, as a matter of fact, Irish whiskey is exported and used as a basis for Scotch whisky. The Scots have at their disposal a very fine organisation for exporting, publicising and marketing Scotch whisky, all over the world practically. We have not got the same advantages here. I am citing that as an instance of what the Department should concentrate on. Producers of different products should be encouraged to co-operate instead of being in competition for export purposes. That is what other countries are doing in relation to marketing and that is what we should do. We have slipped up very badly on marketing. We must expand our products in the competitive days that lie ahead.

The Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement has been a fiasco, to my mind. We gained absolutely nothing from it. It has shown us our weakness when we have to compete with free trade. There should be a reappraisal of the management of exports and we should be prepared to spend far more money on trying to market our goods abroad. We have spent a good deal of money on trying to establish new industries but we should concentrate on our existing industries and try to step up their production and their sales. If we did that we would not be faced with redundancies every other day of the week.

One matter was raised here the other day and the Minister was not able to give us a proper reply. I am concerned at the decision of the United States Government to impose a surcharge on imports into the United States and the effect this surcharge will have on Irish exports. The Minister said:

In 1970 Irish exports to the USA were valued at £60 million ... the USA is now, after the UK, our next most important market.

This surcharge by the American Government applies to two-thirds of our exports to the United States according to the Minister, so it applies to £40 million worth of our exports which means that it costs us an extra £4 million a year. That is a serious matter. The Minister's answer was far from satisfactory. If it is costing this country £4 million a year, I should like to think that our Ministers are doing something constructive about it. The surcharge was aimed directly at countries such as Japan and West Germany. It certainly was not aimed at Ireland which will not dislocate the American economy. We should try to use our influence with the American Government on this matter. We helped our exporters when Britain imposed a surcharge and I should like to think that we are trying to do something about this now.

I often wonder is the Department of Industry and Commerce really necessary since we have so many State and semi-State bodies. Some of the officials may not like that. I wonder how the Department can keep going with all the committees that have been set up. It would take the full time of a Dáil Deputy to keep abreast of the number of committees that have been set up and he would need a special diary for their reports.

I notice the weakness of the Minister's replies to questions about redundancies which are now part of our lives. The Minister has no early warning sign of redundancy in industry. His Department and the bodies attached thereto have given a considerable amount of support to some industries. They have financed them very heavily with public moneys. I should like to think that we could have some early warning sign, an alert sign, to show that a company were getting into difficulties.

It is not good enough that a Minister for Industry and Commerce may be in Cork, as happened to the present Minister, and see a news flash that a company had gone into liquidation, that the workers had been declared redundant and that he should be asked for his comments although he had never heard about it. This is no way to treat a Department which has been responsible for so much finance for so many industries. It shows the whole weakness in the system that we can give so much money to industries and ask for nothing in return. It would be no great demand if we were to ask that the Government would get a seat on the boards of these companies. Anyone investing so much money in companies might ask for some protection for the shareholders. The shareholders in these cases are the public and the Government are merely acting on behalf of the public. If we are going to be so generous in our grants we should ask for some accountability.

There was a factory in Ballyfermot manufacturing Christmas decorations. The works manager said to me: "We have so much left in the bank. I am preparing to go to the States. We are living on the grant that the Government pay us and that is paying the wages each week. I know how much is left and I know when to make my application for the job in America, to get out". They were doing nothing. They were living on the Government grant, the public money. He had that information because he was works manager.

I wonder why no safeguards are taken by the Department or the Government on behalf of the public. We saw the fiasco of the Potez factory. We were codded up to the teeth. Obsolete equipment was shipped in here. False values were put on it. We were fooled. "Defrauded" is the word. We had no redress. Some cock-eyed person gave out, on behalf of the public, vast sums of money. When I talk about £1,000,000 I am not exaggerating. That amount of the people's money went into this stupid idea of manufacturing planes. Anyone with any common sense would know that even America cannot hope to save companies involved in the manufacture of planes. It was a crazy idea. We have had our fingers burnt very often.

I love the expression "potential employment". That is a wonderful escape clause. It does not mean a damn thing. Anyone can say that there is potential employment for 1,000 workers when there may never be more than 100 employed. If we are giving out public money let there be accountability to the public and let us ask for a seat on the boards of these companies which we are heavily financing.

I am not too happy with the outcome of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. We in this party were told that we were reactionaries when we expressed our doubts and suspicions as to the success of this agreement. We have been proved right. I agree that exports have increased but imports have more than offset the increase in exports. The Minister says that a more favourable balance of trade is now evident. That is a relative term. More favourable than what? Than last year? Let us hear the comparative figures for the first two years. It is significant that we have not used the services of the body which insults the Irish language when it calls itself An Bord Dumpála. I refer to the anti-dumping board on the South Circular Road. I do not think it is attending to its business. Irish fertilisers were being sold in Britain. When 85 workers were declared redundant as a result of imports from Ireland, Denmark and other places, Britain quickly applied the anti-dumping clause. They were very quick to move in when the jobs of 85 persons out of 60 million were threatened. I do not think we have applied the protective clauses of the agreement. We have suffered very badly as a result of the agreement and the Government know we have, but Britain told them when they sought a review that they could not do anything about it.

It is significant that we have replaced Australia as Britain's best customer since the introduction of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. That agreement has brought havoc in its wake. It has brought great unemployment to our country. It was obvious that we could not hope to sustain the fierce competition from Britain. Take the case of one item manufactured here. One extra run for one hour on machines in Britain would supply the requirements of this country. This is what is happening. If workers object to conditions in a factory and seek better working conditions or more benefits they are told, "We will close down and we will supply direct from Britain". British exporters to this country have this protection and companies here can close down if the workers say anything. That is a terrible threat to hold over the heads of the workers in Ireland. They are told that, if they do not fall into line, the factory here will be closed down and the market here will be supplied from Britain. These are some of the defects of the operation of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. The Fianna Fáil Government here have not been able to do anything about it and now we are facing the disastrous consequences in massive unemployment.

The Industrial Development Authority, in their annual report for 1970-71, said that there was a shortage of skilled labour during 1970-71 and that it was a limiting factor in attracting and expanding certain types of desirable new industry. He also said the IDA during the year approved grants amounting to £1.6 million for training in a wide range of industry, and that AnCO was working in this field also. If there is such a shortage of skilled labour, what plans are we making to prevent this situation deteroriating? With the young people availing of the free education scheme in secondary schools there are more and more children gaining their group certificate. These children with their group certificate are unable to get apprenticeships in Dublin. This is talent that is being lost, and in three years time the situation will be so bad that I can see firms closing down and going elsewhere because they cannot get skilled labour.

This is one of the effects I foresee if we enter the EEC, because we are not doing anything to train these people who have got their group certificate and who want to take on a trade. Electricity is important but it would be impossible to get a boy with a group certificate apprenticed in the electrical trade at the present time. If you get on to the placement officer in the employment exchange in Gardiner Street he will say: "Send him down" but there is no hope for him. This is a diabolical situation in this city. This is a very serious matter and we should be applying our resources to help these lads to acquire skills which are necessary for new industry. We cannot say electricity will become an archaic trade. I would like to see the money that is being ploughed into other aspects of industry being ploughed in here to help these lads to get their training.

I have seen the report of the IDA and the grandiose plans they have and what they say about advance factories. We talk in terms of 2,000 square feet. If we are talking about bringing in foreign industries, I cannot see any foreign industry being satisfied with 2,000 square feet. It is an insult. That 2,000 square feet would barely provide office space, never mind a factory. That is the first thing that is wrong with the IDA plans for advance factories. You could not put three machines in a space of 2,000 square feet. I defy anyone to contradict me on that. You have to talk in terms of 10,000 square feet for a factory. You have to talk in terms of proper modules to allow for expansion. Advance factories of 2,000 square feet are unrealistic, unless we want cottage industries and nothing more.

The question of insurance is a source of anxiety to many people, especially in view of the exorbitant increase in insurance which was granted by the Minister for Industry and Commerce last year. He could not justify the increase and all he did to fob us all off was to say: "I will set up an inquiry". This has been going on for over 12 months and we have not had a report yet. I think the Minister has been dilatory in his work. Insurance, particularly motor insurance, is a very serious problem. It is a crying shame that there are motorists driving without insurance because they cannot get insurance. If these insurance companies are to operate here the Minister should ensure that they will fulfil their obligations to the State and to the public. If insurance is to be compulsory it should be compulsory on insurance companies to accept insurance. This is what is wrong and because they are not accepting insurance we see too many instances of motorists driving without insurance.

Fire insurance has been a big problem, particularly in the last year when there have been a disastrous series of fires in which almost £7 million worth of Irish industry was destroyed. This is a fantastic amount. The interesting thing about it is that this is greater than the amount of new industry which opened up in the country in the past year. I would like to think that we might do something about such a heavy loss, that we might encourage proper fire fighting facilities, perhaps create a co-ordinated national fire service to help to prevent this terrible financial loss. You can imagine businesses being disrupted, many employees being put out of work, perhaps declared redundant forever as a result of the terrible loss from fire. The Minister might give some thought to the provision of facilities whereby staffs could engage in fire-fighting. He might also consider the establishment of a national fire-fighting service because the situation is sufficiently serious to warrant it.

I must deal with the question of price increases. There has been very nice jockeying by the Government in the matter of price control. I came here in 1965 and saw the Price Control Bill introduced at that time. We tried then to explain to the Government the escape clauses in that measure but they did not listen to us, saying that all the protection the consumer needed was embodied in the Bill. Now we have been told that in the past year prices increased by the astonishingly high figure of 12 per cent. Since the National Wage Agreement the rise in prices has been phenomenal.

It reminds me of the late Taoiseach, Seán Lemass, altering the system of recording the number of unemployed in the country in 1966. Since then we have not been able to get valid unemployment figures. In the same way, decimalisation has bamboozled us in the matter of estimating price increases. It is difficult now to try to compare present prices with those of the predecimal period. We know that prices have spiralled but the Department's reply to complaints is that, if anybody sees an increase in price which he thinks is unwarranted, he should notify the Department. This is no remedy because the people most affected are inarticulate people, people who do not know how to write or to whom they should write.

The only remedy is to provide a team of inspectors who will be constantly on the alert. Manufacturers should be compelled to provide a regular price list and this should be surveyed constantly by the Department. I should like the Minister to tell us how price increases are arrived at. Are they based on sales of individual commodities or is it just a matter of deciding to increase the price of a commodity by one penny?

The Minister cannot remain complacent in the face of the vicious price increases that have been occurring. He has told us that price increases amounting to £43 million were sought in the past year and that the Department permitted only £30 million in price increases. That is nothing to be complacent about. That only offers manufacturers an opportunity to seek higher price increases in the future. They can say that if they seek price increases amounting to so much the Department will allow something lower and they will therefore seek much higher increases than are justified.

Unfortunately vested industrial interests control the present Government. The Government know where their power, their finance and their support come from and they must yield to those interests. They will use any device in order to fool the people because of this and they will allow price increases far in excess of what is warranted. The Minister must accept responsibility for the present high cost of living and for leaving the consumers without the protection they so badly need and are entitled to.

There is one other way of increasing prices. Take a bar of soap, for instance. If there is no obligation on the manufacturer to sell it at a certain weight, instead of seeking an increase of, say, one penny per bar he can reduce the weight and thereby procure his increase in profit. I should be obliged if the Minister would let me know if it is obligatory to provide such things as soap and soap powder at specified weights. If it is not it leaves the door open to manufacturers to increase their profits without increasing their prices.

We have been told it is impossible to control the price of meat. I think it can be controlled, and I think it must be controlled, because it cannot be the policy of any Government to allow prices to spiral, particularly in regard to essential commodities like meat. Their reason may be that prices will be so high here by the time we enter the Common Market that they will not expect a great outcry when we face the phenomenal prices obtaining in the EEC.

I do not see embodied in the Minister's elaborate document any real concrete plans for increasing employment. Despite what is happening in the North, this is a very big problem. I have not visited a home in my area that I do not see one or two unemployed people, young people. I cannot get them jobs and they cannot get jobs. There seems to be a real tightening up on this question of employment. I think we have 6,000 people redundant in the past year. I feel that we have an ideal opportunity here to encourage America to invest a little more in Ireland because she would have an opportunity, with the EEC, of gaining a foothold in Europe. I would like to see greater attention being paid to this. I would not like to feel that we were part of international cartels which, if things went wrong, could close down their Irish factories. I appreciate that this can happen and that where a world-wide recession hits them, they are not concerned about their Irish interests; but I would like to see medium-sized industries who would be glad to gain a foothold in Europe through Ireland and we should be concentrating on trying to help these, and we should be trying to train more and more of our workers and, if possible, training them abroad.

I would like to see money being poured into training our workers abroad. This is where we can get tremendous experience and tremendous skill and we should be planning to meet the challenge that will come if we are to overcome this problem of skilled trades and employment. I would like to see more and more encouragement of native Irish industries and of people who would like to set up an Irish industry. The joking remark has been made that if you wanted a grant from the Government, you had to be a foreigner who was unable to understand the questionnaire they gave you. It is unfortunately much too common that people have been able to come in here and be financed very well, while our own Irish people were not. They had the best of ideas, ideas which were indigenous to the country and could have been successful, but all the time they have been hampered by lack of credit.

It has been said that Irish industry should concentrate on exports and I have discussed with a number of companies why they should consider exports, but their one problem is that they do not have the credit or the finance to enable them to wait for their money from export orders. This is the big bugbear with medium and small-sized industrialists and I think we should be trying to help them to a greater extent. The Minister will say that the Central Bank has made arrangements with the commercial banks to extend almost unlimited credit for exports, but I would like to see small and medium companies, who would wish to engage in exports, having their finance and the interest on their finance subsidised.

They might have a small rate of interest to enable them to do so. I think we need this incentive but they are concentrating on the home market because of the fear that being without money and having got the orders, they could not hold out for their money. This is where we should be trying to help them. There is no use in saying that they can have credit facilities at the high rates of interest which we charge in this country. These are much too high and they are making it difficult for business to manage in the matter of overdrafts. A rate of 10 per cent is a very high rate, and what we should be doing is subsidising them with a lower rate of interest so as to encourage more and more exports. If we were to put forward a plan like this, we should and could encourage many more of our industries to participate in the export market. Only one-third of our industries are participating in that market and this is a low figure. Every effort should be made to increase this and we might adopt a policy of subsidisation in this way, or some modification of it, in this regard. I have talked to a few factory owners about exports and this was always the excuse they gave me.

There is another point—and this is not a reflection on the Department —that there are companies which can get the orders and which accept orders for exports, but they do not meet their obligations. They are not able to fulfil the orders, and this is very damaging for industry and for the country, because importers in other countries will not rely on companies here who cannot fulfil their obligations in a fiercely competitive world. We saw how Britain suffered in relation to this. Different industries were not able to fill their orders and Germany and Japan took advantage of that situation. I do not know how we are to bring home to them the fact that if they are to survive in foreign markets, they must be able to fulfil their obligations in respect of export orders.

The Minister touched on our plans for meeting the EEC. I will not say he has gone into any great detail but he mentioned the White Paper that is to come out. I am wondering in a situation, in which only one-third of our manufacturing industry is in the export field, how we could possibly survive, and perhaps the Minister might give his view on that situation. With only one-third of our manufactured goods being exported, what chance will we have. We have to realise that the other countries in the Six at the moment are all aiming at exports, but only one-third of our manufactured goods are exported which seems a very low figure. It means that two-thirds is for the home market and will be competing with all these other countries.

We have had published the reports on the various industries. I have read a few of them—the clothing industry and the printing and publishing industry—and I am wondering what action is taken on these reports. Are they just published, and is it then left to individual companies to make up their own minds as to whether they are going to stay in industry, or just to carry on as they are, hoping for the best and getting all they can out of it, and leaving the workers to the wind as would happen? I have seen it in the publishing and printing business and I have seen that we do not have a hope of surviving in the printing industry. We have too many printing businesses, and I would like to think that we might have a Department which might call these together and talk to them in terms of amalgamation, in terms of rationalisation and seeing what could be done. I do not know if these reports are acted upon by the Department or its various bodies.

Certainly to my knowledge, it has not happened in that industry. I would like to think that, when an investigation into these industries takes place and when a report is issued, there might be some action on the report. Maybe I am ignorant on this matter and perhaps the Minister will tell me exactly what they do, but I would be very enlightened if I heard what action is taken because it is a year since the particular report was published and, to my knowledge, nothing has yet taken place.

The way to avoid massive redundancies is to act quickly. We must discuss this problem in terms of acting on these reports on industries. I would like to think that the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards would have power to ensure that manufacturers were not producing cheap, shoddy articles and that the consumers had some protection. I had occasion to draw the attention of the Institute to a particular, inferior product. I was told that the Institute had no power to do anything about it. As a matter of goodwill and courtesy I was told that the company concerned would be phoned in connection with this shoddy article and that it would be suggested to them that they could do something about it. We should have more protection than that. Companies operating for quick money gains are not working in the national interest. They are creating a bad impression. Standards and quality should be upheld. We hear of buying "quality Irish". Poor quality articles should not be produced here. The Institute for Industrial Research and Standards should have some power.

Many products manufactured abroad are now being sold here. We see the word "guaranteed" on them, but not the name or address of the manufacturer. It took me a month to trace the manufacturers of one product. There should be an obligation on importers to protect the consumers. There should be some check so that if a product marked "guaranteed" is put on sale the purchaser should have some redress if he is not satisfied with it. What does "guaranteed" mean? The whole purpose is to protect consumers. Importers should not place products on sale without accepting responsibility for their quality.

As a doctor I had an unfortunate experience. I bought some hypodermic needles. One needle was defective and broke in a patient's muscle. The word "guaranteed" appeared on the box of needles, but not the name of the manufacturer. I could not trace the manufacturer. The Minister should give serious consideration to this question to see whether we can bring in legislation to protect the consumer. This is vitally important especially now when more and more foreign products are on the market.

A great deal of electrical equipment is being imported. There should be protection for the consumers in ensuring that parts for such equipment are available. Often equipment and machines are imported without any obligation on the importer to ensure that parts are available. Some of the international companies are selling obsolete goods on the Irish market. Washing machines and fridges sometimes need spare parts for repair purposes and it is annoying to find that one has to write to Canada or the United States for them, only to be told that the model was not being produced there before you bought it. In such cases the consumer needs protection. This should be the responsibility of the Department of Industry and Commerce. Importers should not have the right to dump these goods on the market. They must be made realise that they have an obligation to consumers. They are acting as agents for the manufacturers and must accept responsibility. Consumer protection is badly needed in this country.

I would like to see the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards play a bigger role as regards Irish manufacturers. They might act as watchdogs for the public with regard to Irish-manufactured goods. I would like to see the brand of the Institute on goods. This would provide us with an assurance as to their quality. A special stamp would be some protection. The manufacturers might pay something for such a stamp. Such a system would benefit both manufacturers and the public.

We have spent much money sending Irish businessmen abroad. Since the scheme was started in 1957 the total amount of money granted was £2 million. I know the cost of air fares and I would like to see this £2 million spent on sending workers abroad. We should finance firms who are sending their workers abroad. I would be very happy to see such money spent in this way. I would like a breakdown of this figure.

The Minister said:

I am fully satisfied that the expenditure incurred both by the firms and the Government has proved to be a sound investment in helping energetic and forward looking companies to prepare to meet the challenge of the seventies.

There have been individual cases of people evading their duties. I know of some people who had a holiday on this money. I do not like anyone taking a holiday at the expense of the taxpayer. I would like to see a breakdown of that figure of £2 million, because £2 million is a lot of money.

I see a firm of international consultants were engaged by the Department. I wonder if it is the same firm who have worked for several Departments. They will become part and parcel of the Fianna Fáil Party they have worked on so many projects here. I believe they have renounced their US citizenship and have come to live here permanently because they have said: "There's gold in them thar hills." That is exactly their attitude because there is no limit to the fields in which they will be employed. They are very expensive guests to have in this country.

I would like to see an end to McKinsey and Company; I would like to see Irishmen produce some plans. But we always have the mentality that we must go abroad and bring foreign experts over here to plan for us. The firm of McKinsey have produced some very elaborate documents. They produced a plan for CIE. I saw in the paper during the week where they had a map of some railway line which does not exist at the moment. They think they can bamboozle us with the terms and the names they mention, but you would want to spend a few years in America to learn about McKinsey and Company and what they mean.

I am on a health board and I can tell the House that nobody understands McKinsey and Company and what they are about. The sooner we get that firm out of this country the better for us because they will rob us before they are finished. It has cost £250,000 for one project in which they were involved. They produce very elaborate documents which are nicely bound but when you try to read and understand those documents you come up against a brick wall. The Minister may be super intelligent.

To what part of my speech is the Deputy referring?

I saw reference to a firm of international consultants. This firm have cropped up in many different Departments. No sooner was the Minister for Health finished with them than they moved to Transport and Power. Their plans for our health boards have really put us astray. The suggestions they have made in regard to different projects they have worked on will not help the country. I have no doubt they are a very good American company. I am not casting aspersions on their ability in America, but they are not suitable for this country. America has a population of 200 million and they think in terms of that figure. You cannot change a company like that to suddenly come over here and adapt their ideas to 3 million people. This is where we have gone wrong. I would ask the Government to forget about McKinsey. Perhaps the Minister would reassure me that the firm of consultants mentioned here is not McKinsey.

What page?

Page 25. The only reason I have spoken about them is that they crop up in so many places that when I saw a firm of international consultants were to carry out a survey for the Minister I almost went berserk.

It is not McKinsey.

Good. The Minister has had the good sense to keep them out of his Department, but if he is not careful they will find their way in. I am sure the Minister agrees with me that they have come up with some grandiose ideas not adaptable to this country. The sooner we tell that firm their place is in the US the better. We have got, periodically in reply to questions, details of our balance of trade with various countries. We have fared badly with many of the countries, especially in the East European bloc, China, Japan and places like that. I know the Minister has been abroad many times. My colleague, Deputy O'Leary, said the sun tan which he had was as a result of his world wide travels.

Deputy Donegan complained that I did not travel enough.

I believe that a Minister for Industry and Commerce should travel extensively.

I am not condemning the Minister for travelling abroad because I believe he can do a lot of good by meeting the right people in those different countries. I know it is easy to be critical when he comes back but I appreciate the problems of any Minister who goes abroad in the present situation in the North. It is hard for people abroad to differentiate between North and South and the first thing they will say to a Minister is "There is awful trouble in your country". It is certainly not a happy environment for setting up an industry.

There is great ignorance abroad about Ireland. I have been getting letters from people in the States who think that the people in this part of the country are still in trouble. I remember a president of a US bank saying to me: "You picked up English very fast". He did not know we spoke English here. I have a German friend who thinks we are involved in all the trouble in the North. This is the impression which people abroad have of this country. We are up against the handicap of the trouble in the North when we look for people to come in here and set up industries.

It is very difficult for a Minister to do everything, but I should like to see more concentration on trade attachés rather than embassies abroad. We should have special trade departments in all our Embassies and specially trained people working in them who can attract people to come here to set up new industries. The Minister should be able to make special visits to trade departments in all our Embassies after the people there have made contacts for him. I do not think our Embassies abroad are doing the work they should be doing to attract industry to this country. I know there is a great deal of work to be done. Proper information must be provided and I should like specialised teams in the Embassies doing this work. We might also encourage some of our more successful businessmen into the Department of Industry and Commerce and into the IDA. That would engender a more businesslike approach to and more businesslike thinking on the problems affecting our country. The Minister looks a little askance at this suggestion. He will probably say that this is done.

It is done and, when it is done, we are attacked by the Deputy's colleagues. We had Deputy Desmond on the subject yesterday.

I do not think so. A man qualified in the arts is no good in business. Business requires a businesslike mind. We also need sales teams. I have talked to many English people who have nothing but praise for the "Kerry Gold" campaign. They say we have done a fantastic sales job and that we have outsmarted the Danes. They are very impressed. Whoever was responsible for that campaign has won the admiration of British businessmen. I should like to see similar campaigns initiated in regard to other commodities. Everything depends on a dynamic sales force and on technique and know-how. With an expert team we could be very successful in markets abroad. We have the advantage, though some may not regard it as such, of speaking the English language. Whether we like it or not, English will be the spoken language in Europe; they are all trying desperately there to learn English. We should make more use of it.

The loss suffered by Erin Foods is a big one. I think their promotional campaign was wrong. If one wants to sell something one should find out, first of all, what the consumer thinks about it. One can flog something to death but, if people do not want it, they will not buy it. As I say, the promotional campaign was wrong. Perhaps they can change their plans now. Perhaps the product is just not right.

We should be training our young people now in expert salesmanship. We should have good brand names. These are the things that will bring results. More money should be spent on training and, if necessary, experts should be brought in from elsewhere to train our young people. If our young people are not given this opportunity we will regret it. The Minister might have a closer liaison with his colleague, the Minister for Labour, about the training of young people who have the necessary qualifications, particularly in view of that pessimistic report saying there is a great shortage of skilled personnel. We must act immediately. If we do not, the consequences in three or four years time will be disastrous. We must create the opportunities.

I come from an area in which there is no worthwhile industry, an area in which there are many people anxious and willing to work but unable to find work. Very often the Taoiseach, the Minister and other members of the Cabinet talk about the establishment of industries in the West. Let me tell the Minister now that he will have to establish industries, let them be big or small, in many of the towns throughout the West if he wants those towns to survive. It is sad to see so many young people leaving school and unable to find employment. They find it difficult to know where to go or what approach to make and, in the end, they go to England. I hope that in the near future some Government will come to the rescue of these towns because it is the towns which will save the rural areas. The rural areas are becoming depopulated because there is no employment. Even if employment were provided eight, nine, or 20 miles away the people would be glad to get it because wages are good and they could maintain a car. If they had employment they would be a benefit to their country and to their homes.

We have very active town development committees, giving voluntary service, working hard, late into the night, at long and tedious meetings, in order to try to help the towns to which they belong. After many such meetings they discover there is nothing doing. A great effort has been made by the North Leitrim Development Committee and by a very active branch of it in Dublin to get some industry established in Manorhamilton. A few years ago meetings were held in Carrick-on-Shannon and Manorhamilton to bring the town to the notice of the Department or of some industrialist who might consider establishing a pulp industry there seeing that we have extensive afforestation in the area. Afforestation has been going on there for over 20 years. The climate was suitable and so was much of the land and very good progress was made. Today the benefit can be reaped from the work done by the forestry section and the very efficient staff. Instead of using transport on our well built roads to carry ten or 20 ton trucks it should be more economic and more sensible for the Department to see what could be done on the spot.

It is all right for a Minister to say: "Put forward some idea and we shall look at it and consider giving grants." At this time, with a Government that have had the support this Government had down the years, it is their duty, as I have often said, to visit those areas and see the towns in rural areas for themselves. The forestry is there and the centre for industry is there. If some industrialist considered it costly to provide transport in the area the Department would be well advised to give a substantial transport subsidy.

But the idea has been turned down and I think it is in Roscrea, between 60 and 80 miles away, that the factory exists and all the surplus timber has to be taken there in the trucks I have mentioned instead of trying to have some industry established locally even on a small basis. The raw material is there but Manorhamilton is without an industry. If the Government intend to help those towns the time to save them has almost passed. The late Deputy Sweetman worked very hard to establish an industry at Ballisodare. He succeeded, and just as it was getting off the ground, he had a fatal accident. That industry, manufacturing concrete pipes for drainage, building and other purposes is making very good progress now. I visited the factory and it is a treat to see the fine product that is turned out there and the employment given and the life it puts into the area. That is what we want. If we had such industries rural areas would be saved and instead of emigrating people would remain there and some who had left would return.

Other towns such as Drumshanbo are also suffering from a similar degree of depopulation with no industry. If it had not been for the Arigna coalmines within four or five miles of the town it would be almost closed down. The mines were a source of revenue down the years and helped to keep the shops going thus the people from the mines made Drumshanbo their local town. Otherwise, there would be a much smaller population there today. The Taoiseach once held a largely attended meeting there and told the people he would see that the town would be well looked after but I can assure the Minister that Drumshanbo has not yet got any benefits.

The Department should examine these areas themselves. We can repeat our arguments, Estimate after Estimate, but if the Minister went there with his officials they could see for themselves what is required in those towns. The time has come when they should do this. Telling a group of people to prepare a project and that if it is worthwhile they will see what they can do is not the proper approach in an area which has suffered so much from depopulation. Yet, that is the only answer we get. The Government have been in office since 1932 except for a few interruptions and all down the years Leitrim gave the Government good support. All the Deputies from that part of the country worked hard whether in Government or Opposition and were all anxious to have something done to save the area and have the people kept on the land and in the towns. If it was not for the factories in Collooney and Tubbercurry there would be a much lower population in that part of County Sligo.

We now have a factory at Hazelwood, Sligo. It is now getting off the ground and employing a number of people which is increasing by perhaps 20 per week and we hope that it will ultimately absorb about 550 boys and girls. If that is so it will prove to be the salvation of the area because Sligo has suffered some serious set-backs and if it was not for this new factory we would have to shout louder. A chip basket factory closed there leaving between 40 and 50 employees out of work. There is a letter in the Evening Herald this evening referring to the closing of a Sligo factory. It says that the closing of the Innisfree Potteries factory in Sligo has gone almost unnoticed and the employees have now joined the 7,000 other workers who have lost their jobs in the last seven months throughout the Twenty-six Counties. “Innisfree Potteries,” it says, “was a thriving industry and was closed at very short notice. To date, no statement on the closure has been made by either the owner or the Industrial Development Authority.” The letter challenges both the IDA and the owner, on behalf of the Countess Markievicz Cumann Sinn Féin, in the town, to explain the circumstances leading to the closure. The letter was signed by Michael Mooney, chairman, and Seán Breannan, secretary. Those are the things that are happening. We are all hoping very sincerely that this industry will make progress. It is a really sound industry, one of the most advanced factories attached to that Italian concern. The progress of that company would help to save the life of north Sligo and north Leitrim. The youth in that wide area have nothing to look forward to. There are many young people leaving school with leaving certificates and they and their parents are very disappointed to find that there are no openings for them.

Deputy Donegan for years pressed to have industries in Sligo and he succeeded, but there was one factory built that never opened. I did not intend to speak on this or I would have had more specific information. When I make inquiries about the chipboard factory I am told that it is being bought but I have been told that for a long time now.

Deputy Dr. O'Connell spoke about expert advice. For years we have been listening to this both in the council chamber and from the Department. We are told they must have expert advice and when we make further inquiries we are told that the experts must come from England or America. I have the greatest confidence in our own trained personnel. I have no doubt many of them would do as good a job on many projects that come before local authorities and before the Department as has been done by the so-called expert advisers. We often see young lads heading for the city or even staying at home and establishing themselves beyond all expectations in the building industry and in many other spheres—for instance, the horse industry. These people got no expert advice. They are geniuses in their own way. If we had enough of them in the industrial world, we could do without the fellows who come along and think that we know nothing.

We have an industrial development officer in Sligo. I hope we will get more industry into that area. Ballinamore, County Leitrim, could also do with an industry. It is very well served by schools which have turned out many educated young people who, for want of employment, must go further afield. Those towns should be seriously considered by the Department for industry. I can assure the Minister that if industries were established in those towns there would be no problem in getting a labour force. There are people there who are well prepared by excellent teachers. There are night classes which they can attend. There is the Regional College in Sligo to which any of them can travel after a day's work if they wish.

For a number of years past when we have had a bumper yield of agricultural produce throughout the West there has been practically no place to take it in order to have it processed. There is a potato factory in Tuam but in the other parts of the West there is no centre to which one can take a surplus of farm produce. A few years ago there was a bumper yield. These people are not big farmers but whatever surplus they had had to go to waste because transport to Tuam would be too costly and there was nowhere else to send it. It is a pity the price and the market are not there for things such as green vegetables. There was a substantial sum of money collected in this area at one time towards establishing such an industry but it did not meet with a favourable reception from the Department and the money, which was generously subscribed by everybody who could subscribe, is lying in the bank and nothing has been done. The Department should have been more generous. There were very sound people at the head of that project with very good intentions but for want of encouragement from the proper source it fell through. That is something that should be considered, because we have there a large area with no centre to which to take any surplus of farm produce.

We had a sad experience in Sligo a few years ago when the woollen factory, which employed about 350 people, was burned down. The fire started at about 11 o'clock at night but it was soon discovered that the facilities available for fighting the fire were inadequate. I am suprised that the departmental inspectors who go around the country inspecting factories do not check up on the availability of facilities for fighting fires. There is a generous water supply in the town but the factory was gutted before the fire-fighting machinery got going at all. Inspectors should ensure that every factory has adequate facilities for dealing with such emergencies.

There are many small groups throughout the country who are exempt from the grants given to industry. A list was published recently in Sligo and only then did a few groups of people ask me if they could be included in that list. I got on to the IDA officer in Sligo and I hope they will be considered. I remember making representations on behalf of a small group engaged in making furniture but they did not come within the scope of the Act. I referred the matter to our development officer, Mr. Martin, and when I have found out from him what the position is I shall come back to the Minister.

Mr. O'Donnell

I do not wish to detain the Minister very long because I know the nerve-wracking time he has had during the last 24 hours and I am sure he wants to get away and have a good night's sleep. This is a most important Estimate and one which during my ten years as a Member of this House I have always felt obliged to speak on. It is true to say that the acid test of Government policy is the creation of employment. Looking at the record of the last 12 months it is to be regretted that the progress which has been made in the past few years has not been maintained. I admit, as the Minister has pointed out, that there were a combination of unfortunate circumstances this year which created serious difficulties in various sectors of manufacturing industry. The Minister has outlined these various factors but what has prompted me to speak is a comment by the Minister on page 13 of his brief where he was dealing with the question of redundancies. He admitted that free trade had been an important factor but he went on to say that, "it is only one of the factors involved". He then went on to point out and I quote:

... one of the sectors of manufacturing industry where the incidence of redundancy has been greatest this year has been the food industry...

This raises a point which I have raised on every occasion I have spoken on the Estimate of the Department of Industry and Commerce and that is the question of the potential of this country for food processing industries. The Minister did not attempt to explain in detail the significance of the fact that the redundancies in the food industries were greatest. The fact that the incidence of redundancy has been greatest in the food industry this year is a terrible reflection, if not an indictment, on the industrial policy being pursued by the Fianna Fáil Government. I suppose it is an indictment of the overall economic policy because the food industry is based on the agricultural industry from which it gets its raw materials.

We have the finest agricultural land in western Europe and there is no doubt about the capacity of our farmers to produce top quality food efficiently. It is inexplicable to find that this year the food industry has had a very high incidence of redundancy. Apart from the fact that we have all the natural conditions, and all the natural advantages conducive to a prosperous and growing food manufacturing sector, we have the additional tremendous asset that just a few miles across the Irish Sea is Great Britain, which is the greatest food importing country in western Europe. When one considers these factors it is very difficult to explain why this situation has arisen, free trade or no free trade. There have been bad reports from Erin Foods and Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta which I am sure, are matters of concern to the Minister even though these particular companies may not come directly under the control of his Department.

Is it not a fact that on a number of occasions this year we have been unable to meet the demands for certain food products on the export market? Is it not a fact that we were unable to supply a very substantial order for butter? Is it not a fact that we are unable to supply our full quota of bacon on the British market? Is it not a fact that there is a colossal potential in Britain for other types of food products? When the Minister is replying perhaps he will attempt to explain in more detail than he has done in his opening speech why there has been such a high rate of redundancy in the food processing industry. I have said on many occasions that I believe the food processing industry is inhibited by reason of the fact that the industry comes under the control of a number of different State Departments.

When the Arthur D. Little Report was being considered in relation to the restructuring of the IDA I expressed disappointment that the Government did not go the entire way in an effort to rationalise industrial development. It is wrong that the Minister for Industry and Commerce has not responsibility for important sectors of our manufacturing industry—the bacon industry, the milk industry and so on. This matter must be considered and I should like to see all manufacturing sectors coming within the responsibility of the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

The Minister in his statement referred to the Shannon Industrial Estate. Some years ago the manufacturing sector of the estate was transferred from being under the aegis of the Department of Transport and Power to that of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Minister referred to the fact that an additional subvention of £500,000 is being made available to the Shannon Development Company for the purpose of industrial development.

In his statement the Minister referred to the fact that there have been closures and redundancies at Shannon and in other parts of the country. For the record, approximately 700 people have become redundant in the Shannon Industrial Estate in the past 12 months. I regret this as much as anyone and I am not inclined to score political points on this matter. Because of my involvement with the workers at Shannon and my close contact with people on the industrial estate and following inquiries I have made regarding some of the industries which have closed, there are certain suggestions I should like to make to the Minister.

At Shannon there are about 23 manufacturing enterprises and it should be possible to arrange for some kind of early warning system when an industry is getting into difficulties. The development company concerned and the Department of Industry and Commerce should be alerted in adequate time to enable them to assess the situation and see if action might be taken. I want to be fair to the Minister on this point because whenever I have had occasion to approach him about redundancies he has been anxious to help and has been courteous to me. However, the problem is that it is usually too late when the situation is brought to public notice. The term "fire brigade action" has been used in this context but I am not in favour of this because such action is usually a last minute effort. When an industry gets into difficulty because of adverse factors on the export market, the Department, the IDA or the local regional development company should be alerted to see if timely action could save the situation.

In the case of a sophisticated and highly-efficient organisation such as the Shannon Industrial Estate it should be possible to arrange that a new industry would be able to take over when a firm get into difficulties. I realise this would be difficult to achieve in the normal way but given the early warning system and a new method of processing new industries it should be possible for a new industry to go into production as soon as a firm might have to vacate an existing plant.

There is another point I should like to make on this matter and this has been advanced by the trade union movement catering for the Shannon workers. In the case of redundancies at one factory at Shannon strong criticism was expressed by the representatives of the workers that they had not been given adequate warning that difficulties had arisen. A group of 20 workers arrived at my office in Limerick one morning during the summer recess. These workers had suddenly become redundant at the Shannon estate. They had no redundancy pay and they did not know what to do about it and I had to phone the Department of Labour on their behalf.

In an effort to tackle this problem a suggestion has been put forward by the trade unions which I think is valuable. In the case of a concern such as the Shannon Development Company who have jurisdiction not only over the industrial estate but over the airport and the mid-western region, there is a cast-iron case for worker or union representation on the board of the company. The Minister has probably had representations on these lines and I would urge him to consider this matter. Apart from the fact that it would ensure that the unions knew when a firm was getting into difficulty, the workers could be warned and steps taken to secure alternative employment. This is more easily done in an industrial estate than in a town with only one industry.

A sad aspect of the redundancies that have occured is the fact that many highly-skilled workers have no prospects of alternative employment. Many of them wait for some time but finally they are forced to go to England or elsewhere. With more efficient planning and foresight and with better understanding between the Shannon Development Company and the unions some formula might be devised that would minimise the impact and consequences of redundancy and which would ensure that, when a plant or an industry got into difficulties, everything possible would be done to ensure that any workers who became redundant as a result would find employment as quickly as possible in the particular industrial estate concerned. This is the first Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce since the present Minister took responsibility for it and this is the first occasion we have had to review the progress made by the Shannon Development Company since they were given responsibility for industrial development, not only at Shannon itself, but in the mid-western region which comprises Limerick city and county, Clare and North Tipperary.

As one who, for a number of years, had been advocating this development, I am happy to be able to say that the progress being made by the Shannon Development Company throughout the entire mid-west region in the promoting of industry is very gratifying. There are two very large industries being promoted adjacent to Limerick city. One of these is in my own constituency while the other is in the constituency of Limerick West. I hope that when these industries go into production in the course of the coming year, they will go a long way towards absorbing redundant workers of which there are quite a large number in Limerick at present.

Because they had the expertise and the know-how, the Shannon Development Company have been of invaluable help in the promotion of industry in the mid-western region. So far as the concept of regional development is concerned the Shannon Development company have justified the confidence and the hope that was placed in them when the Bill giving them this additional responsibility was going through the House.

The Minister referred also to the small industries programme. From the figures he has given it would appear that this programme, which now extends throughout the country, has made a very important contribution to the overall growth of industrial development and to the provision of jobs. For many years I have been keen on this idea of promoting and assisting small industries, particularly in rural Ireland. Perhaps I was the first Deputy to voice this idea in the House and I wish now to pay tribute to the man who was responsible for implementing the idea by having set up a special division to deal with small industries. I refer to Mr. T.M. O'Connor who was then our county manager in Limerick and who, I think, by reason of the success of a small industries' programme that was his brainchild, has made an outstanding contribution to the development of industry in this country and who, in particular, has made an outstanding contribution to rural development because in the vast majority of cases it is in rural areas that the small industries are operating. I have had a fair amount of contact with the small industries division of the IDA and I must say that the officials, from the chief right down to the men who go out into the field to assess projects, are outstanding men. It is only fair to say that the success of the small industries programme is due in no small measure to the dedication and hard work done by these people.

The Minister has told us that for the year ending 31st March, 1971 grants totalling £1.2 million were approved for the small industries programme and that there was involved an additional employment potential of 1,140 workers. This is remarkable development. The Minister went on to tell us that since the scheme was initiated in 1967 the number of grants approved was 593 and totalled £4 million and resulted in additional employment for 7,400 workers. Those who for many years have advocated this type of development, have reason to be pleased with the results that have been achieved. There is yet vast potential for this type of programme. Of course it is only fair to point out that the idea of the small industries division was not original from the point of view of industrial development because long before we thought of it, such programmes under different names had been in operation on the continent, in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and various other countries. The reason I say there is yet vast potential for development is because there is a tremendous amount of latent talent throughout the country. We have a great fund of inherited skills in particular crafts that have been handed down from one generation to another.

I hope that the progress of the small industries division will continue and that every effort will be made to ensure that any project offering a reasonable potential will be assisted. The Minister referred briefly to the EEC. I suppose one must agree with him when he says that this is not the time or the occasion for a full discussion on the implications of EEC membership in so far as Irish industry is concerned. I am not an expert on industrial development nor am I an expert on the EEC. I only want to say that, despite the gloomy prophecies that have been made about the impact of EEC membership on industry of the the whole I am quite confident of the ability of industry to meet the tremendous challenge that lies ahead.

I see one very real possibility for new industrial expansion. I believe that our entry into the EEC—and I understand from offical channels that there is evidence of this already—will lead to a very big increase in the number of foreign industrialists, particularly American industrialists, who will be seeking a base in Europe and whom we have a very good chance of attracting to Ireland. Certain doubts were expressed about the future of the Shannon Industrial Estate and the customs free zone. I believe that within the context of the EEC and industrial development Shannon has a tremendous future. It is an ideal base for American manufacturers in particular who are seeking a base for manufacturing their products and exporting them into Europe.

With the airport, the air facilities and the tremendous facilities that are available to be exploited in the Shannon estuary, with proper planning and with confidence, Shannon has a bright future as a transportation and a trans-shipment centre for manufacturers who wish to export into Europe. I sincerely hope that this will be borne in mind because no other part of western Europe has at the moment the same facilities for trans-shipment, and trans-shipment between Europe and the continent of America is a growing business and will be bigger business.

I want to say something now which is relevant to what my colleague, Deputy McLaughlin, said. A very interesting case was put forward within the past year by a former director of the IDA, Dr. Cathal Loughney, in relation to industrial development in the west. He pointed out that one of the factors which inhibits industrial development along the western seaboard is the high cost of transport, particularly from the port of Dublin and other eastern ports. He put forward the view that the scheme of grants administered by the IDA should incorporate some form of transport subsidisation for industrialists who would be prepared to set up an industry along the western seaboard where employment is very badly needed.

I do not know whether any survey has been made, whether any information is available, or whether the Minister and his Department have made any assessment of the relationship between transport costs and the development of industry along the western seaboard. I would be very grateful to hear the Minister's observations on this because this is a matter in which I am keenly interested by reason of my interest in transport and western development.

This should be possible in order to encourage the establishment of industry along the western seaboard, if we are serious about western development. I was horrified to find that many of the people who have been very vocal about western development, and about saving the west, proved to be complete hypocrites in relation to another issue. If the Minister is serious about industrial development in the west, and serious about retaining at least the existing population in the western towns and in the rural areas in the west, this whole question of transport subsidisation for industrial development along the western seaboard will have to be looked into.

There are numerous other items which arise on this Estimate on which I do not propose to speak since the views of the Fine Gael Party have been put forward very adequately by my colleague Deputy Donegan. In conclusion I should like to express the hope that the year that lies ahead will be more favourable for industrial development and that there will be a reversal of the unfortunate trend towards redundancy that we have seen in 1971.

In general the observations made by the various Deputies in this debate were extremely constructive. The wide-ranging nature of the comments made makes my task this evening a sort of broken one. I intend to try to deal with as many of the points raised as I possibly can and I anticipate that my remarks may, of necessity, be a bit disjointed. I will, however, endeavour to cover the debate as fully as I possibly can.

Deputy O'Donnell was extremely worried about my capacity to stand up to this in view of the rather difficult 24 hours he felt I had been through. I should like to console him and say that I feel reasonably easy about it. In fact, my normal Saturday at home would put me through far more difficult problems than the problems I have had over the past 24 hours.

Deputy Donegan led off for the Opposition. His contribution to the debate was extremely constructive, as usual I must say. I had this experience when I sat in for the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries some years ago. This is my second experience of dealing with the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce. On all occasions his contributions have been extremely constructive. I think I should say this.

He spoke about industrial development. He attributed the fact that not enough new jobs have been created mainly to two major factors. He decided that the difficulty arose from instability of Government, that due to what he described as the present instability, foreign industrialists and entrepreneurs were disinclined to develop new industries here. I should be in a position to disillusion the Deputy in this regard. From my understanding of the situation from the reports coming to hand from the Industrial Development Authority and from practical experience of the IDA, and to the knowledge of Deputy O'Donnell who spoke last on this Estimate, there are a number of outside industrialists who are marking time waiting for the final decision as far as we are concerned to join the EEC, so that they can go ahead with their development plans at that stage. If there is any indecision or postponement of decision it is not because of any problem within the Government but because of the fact that we have not as yet had the national referendum which will put the rubber stamp on our entry into the EEC.

The second cause cited by the Deputy is one that of necessity one must agree is a major factor in the promotion of exports coincidental with the development of industry and it is something about which I and my pre-decessors have on many occasions warned against, that is, the danger that we might price ourselves out of markets if costs are allowed to rise too much. The Deputy referred to that today and said he hoped his remarks would not be taken out of context. I have no intention of taking his remarks out of context. He did make the point that if the cost of living could be kept down in relation to the cost of production, and one went with the other, it would be possible to generate further industry here and at the same time maintain living standards with a comparatively low rate of cost. This is desperately easy to argue but it is not so easy to attain.

Deputy O'Connell said that there was nothing in my speech which would indicate that anything was being done to procure more jobs or to develop further industry. This is an extraordinary sort of statement and it is a statement that it is pretty difficult to take inasmuch as this was the presentation of an Estimate which showed that an additional £4½ million was provided for industrial development in the original Estimate and I was in a position to indicate that an additional £6 million had been laid aside further to augment the £23 million which had already been provided in this year's Estimate. I was in a position to state that in this year provision had been made for the spending of £29 million to attract industry to this country, as compared with a figure of £18½ million last year. In face of that, Deputy O'Connell had the audacity to say that there was nothing in my speech which would indicate that the Government were doing anything to create further jobs or to attract further industry to the country.

We had Deputy Desmond pointing out that the Government invariably claim responsibility for progress while, on the other hand, they disclaim responsibility for failure. In direct contradiction of that statement he went on to say that if there had been any progress it was progress that would have come anyway, despite the Government, and that failure was the Government's responsibility.

The contributions to this debate from the Opposition benches indicate a clear divergence of opinion as to the causes of the number of redundancies that have occurred over the past 12 months. During the course of the past year, by way of Parliamentary Questions and arising from speeches made by Opposition Deputies, the overall impression has been created that it was the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement that had been responsible for almost all of the redundancies that have occurred during this period. I outlined the position this morning and limited reference was made to the effects of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. It was clear to me from the debate that the factors which I spelt out, world conditions and so on, were reasonably fully accepted by the Deputies who contributed to this debate.

Deputy O'Connell, in general terms, dismissed my contribution as containing nothing. I have just referred to the fact that it did contain the information that the money being provided this year for industrial development is in fact—in one year—almost 50 per cent more than was provided last year. Nevertheless the Deputy found it possible to say that there was nothing at all in my speech this morning.

I should like to mention another matter now that Deputy Desmond is here. I am not saying that in a derogatory way because Deputy Desmond has been here for most of the day, like Deputy Donegan and myself. We did sneak out to get a bite. Deputy O'Connell said that it would be very useful if the Department of Industry and Commerce and the various State-sponsored bodies that come under their aegis were to attract into their ranks successful businessmen, persons who had made a success of their own jobs, and tried to use them in the general development of the various businesses in which they were involved. I deliberately interrupted to draw Deputy O'Connell's attention to the fact that a colleague of his had criticised the action of the Minister for Finance in introducing four well-known, successful businessmen as representatives of the State into a commercial concern recently. The Deputy said he welcomed the Government's use of successful businessmen and their contribution to industrial development. I know the Deputy was not present to hear it but I would refer him to the debate——

The Minister will appreciate that I was dealing with the question of worker representation. I was making the point that where substantial public funds are put into a public or private company the nominations to the board should not be exclusively for company directors, that there should be some worker representation.

I shall be dealing with that aspect——

With due respect, nomination should not be confined to the financial supporters of Jack Lynch.

I think that is rather unfair.

Even though he is a very good businessman.

I take it the Deputy means the Taoiseach.

My apologies, the Taoiseach. One gets familiar with fellow Corkmen.

For fear that Deputy O'Connell might be faulted for his contribution I deliberately interrupted him at the time with apologies and drew attention to the fact that he was saying something with which a colleague of his might not agree.

I have no objection whatsoever to business people, but there should be balanced representation —four managing directors appointed to the board of one company and the union involved told to go and "get lost" by the Minister for Finance, Deputy George Colley. One representative would have satisfied me, and I do not think that these nominees would have objected at all.

There was no objection from anyone except the Deputy. Deputy O'Connell suggested that it might be a good thing if we were to bring in foreign expertise to train some of our unskilled workers to become skilled in some specific trade in which there might be a scarcity at present. Deputy O'Connell made this suggestion at the same time as he was attacking various sectors of Government for bringing in foreign experts to examine the workings of various businesses. In this regard over the last few years when the Industrial Development Authority attracted in some industry in which there was a lack of know-how when the industry was getting off the ground, there was an arrangement whereby a number of potential workers in that new industry could be grant-aided towards going, to perhaps, the home base in whatever country it was to do a term of training in preparation for their future work in the factory. This system has worked pretty well up to now. This problem was raised at the recent meeting to which I referred this morning and at which the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Labour and myself met the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. The Taoiseach asked the ICTU to try to persuade certain unions to modify their opposition to giving recognition to people being trained by AnCo in certain industrial techniques here.

One of the difficulties I always find about replying to a debate on the day on which it occurs—and I am not saying I have any objection to doing that; it is always very welcome from a Minister's point of view—is that while one has recollections of what the contributor has said, one is always not too sure until the Official Record has been checked. However, as far as I can recollect, Deputy Donegan said it would be Fine Gael policy, if they assumed office, to provide grants at new-industry level where there is major expansion of existing industry. That would not be new policy. That is the situation at present.

It does not appear to be the policy that is being implemented.

This is the policy. As a matter of fact I did promise during Question Time today, arising from supplementaries, to go into more detail during my reply on this Estimate on the question raised by Deputy Donegan as to what industries are globally disqualified from receiving grants either for new industrial projects or re-equipment, and the reason for such disqualification. Spelt out in the background information arising from the reply today in connection with new industrial grants is, first, that the purpose of the scheme is to encourage the establishment of new manufacturing industry and the major expansion of existing industries. That is the position as far as the IDA are concerned.

As far as I know, expansion of existing industry, even though major, does not enjoy the higher level of grant.

That is the position, but if there are any problems in that regard which cannot be ironed out with the IDA, perhaps the Deputy would care to contact me, but I do not think it will be necessary. The reply on this question could have been so exhaustive today that it was not appropriate to Question Time, but in the meantime I had the opportunity of checking on the joinery aspect. The supplementary to the reply today developed into a discussion as to whether there was prohibition on the allocation of re-equipment grants for joiners. Taking what one would describe as standard joinery, windows, doors, et cetera, that is a sensitive area. This does not apply to off-standard joinery such as furniture, built-in wordrobes, bar fittings, et cetera. However, standard joinery is suffering from a national over-capacity at the present time, that is, even within the State; there is no question of pressure from outside. Nevertheless, the IDA will look seriously at an application for grant assistance if the applicant can show, for example, that there is a local developing market and that the project has export potential such as cross-Border trade. In the matter of such things as wardrobes, bath fittings and so on, there is no problem. Each case is examined on its merits. I do not know if that covers what the Deputy was asking me.

It certainly helps.

In relation to industrial development as a whole, information from the IDA is that there is no slackening off at the moment of inquiries from outside industrialists.

There may be a lack of immediate pressure because of the question mark about our EEC entry prospects, but it is anticipated, and my solid information from the IDA is, that there is a sort of back-up in the pipeline of applicants who are preparing for determination of our EEC application.

Deputy Donegan referred to boardroom decisions in Birmingham and Chicago that can never be counted on. The Deputy will appreciate that, while no one can claim there are genuine decisions of this nature, it is just as easy to say they have been made, because the question is not one of the Government being in a state of chassis——

The trouble in the North as well as the Government's trouble. All that comes into it.

On the other hand, it is unfair to say that trouble within the Government is responsible for the indecision or the changing of decisions in this respect. From information available in SFADCO, Deputy O'Donnell was able to tell us that American industrialists are waiting for the final EEC entry decision and that it has nothing to do with any problems across the floor of the House.

I would say that the problems across the floor of the House and the North are two big factors.

It is a question of who will say it last. My understanding is that there is no falling-off in applications, that there is a build-up in the pipeline.

The Minister said it last.

I am supposed to have the last word, anyway. I referred to the EEC earlier today and I will have to refer to it again because most Deputies who spoke did so. Deputy Desmond was not as happy as Deputy Donegan in relation to the success of the Minister for Foreign Affairs in regard to export tax reliefs. He read it differently from the Government's presentation of it and from the manner in which Deputy Donegan read it. In a reasonably short time we shall have a full debate on the White Paper on the EEC and it would be preferable not to anticipate that discussion in this respect. I shall satisfy myself by reiterating——

Can the Minister tell us how the Commission see it?

We see it as the Commission see it and we are satisfied with the preservation of the export tax relief provisions. If at any stage before the end of their promised life they have to be altered in any way, the alternative provisions will be at least as attractive as what we have been giving.

That is a rather new slant on it. I have not heard Deputy Brian Lenihan or Deputy Hillery use the term "at least as attractive".

It is on the record. We can further develop that subject during the discussion on the EEC White Paper. Deputy Desmond went on from that to the question of the Protocol and he suggested that there was no industrial regional development plan. In relation to the regional planning which the IDA are doing, he complained that the Minister for Industry and Commerce had given no directive to the regional managers or the regional officers of the IDA in relation to plans for the various areas. He went on to say that he objected to a State-sponsored body doing the planning for the Government.

I do not think I said I objected. I said I thought it incongruous that the Cabinet decision should be taken by the IDA—that it is a reversal of government. Thanks be to God the IDA are there.

Bord Iascaigh Mhara did not get away with it.

There is no question of the IDA making decisions for the Government. Deputy Desmond went on to say that when the regional reports had been finalised by the IDA they would then be presented for examination by the Government before release to the House. He found fault with that.

No. I suggested——

Deputy Desmond spoke for more than two hours and he should allow the Minister to reply without interruption.

We are just clarifying our views. We are being most friendly.

Perhaps I make my points in some peculiar way which prompts the Deputy to comment. The present arrangement is that the IDA regional officers, in consultation with the various local groups, are preparing the regional plans. All the proposals will be collectively looked at, even in conjunction with the overall looking at Buchanan, and then will come to Government, having been completely vetted at top level by the IDA. I personally think that is the ideal arrangement, and it is in fact the answer to the criticism, which Deputy O'Connell came up with tonight, about bringing in outside experts. Here we have our own experts, something which was recommended by Deputy McLaughlin, and I do not think anybody would really object to it, except Deputy Desmond.

My objection is that, when you get the reports, you do nothing with them. That is what has happened since 1961.

My recollection and my note of the message given to the House today by Deputy Desmond was that he objected to a State-sponsored body doing the thinking and the planning on behalf of the Government.

Being obliged to do so—that is my point.

We will see what the record says in due course. I certainly think that the arrangement worked out is the proper one. It is planning, as I see it, by Irish people, who know best in their own given areas what the requirements of those areas are, and here we have the Government looking at these plans with a view to being able to link them in with the general overall development plans which are contemporaneously going on and I think this is the best approach yet to overall regional planning.

Deputy Desmond went on to describe the various reports already prepared by the Committee on Industrial Progress as in general being non-progressive and that they are a reproduction of the CIO reports, or coming to the same conclusions as the CIO reports came to in the early sixties. Coming to the same conclusions does not make the reports inconsistent. That in fact is really the message that needs to be got across to industry. The message was got across early in the sixties and succeeding Ministers for Industry and Commerce, and other Ministers, have endeavoured to get across the message to industry to re-adapt and re-equip, and this is what all the re-equipment and re-adaptation grants have been for and geared towards over the last number of years. The Deputy did not quite spell out what he meant by forcing the implementation and I think he did suggest that I set up a whole lot of development councils to work this out. This is not the solution. Exhortation and inducement, as I see it, is the most practical way to get industrialists, who are disinclined to do so—in some cases they are only now waking up to the problems they are going to face, and are facing, in a free trade situation— to prepare themselves.

I do not think that the forcing of the implementation of the recommendations is the ideal solution in this type of situation and I am positive that to endeavour to force our industrialists into re-equipment or adaptation would not be a solution to any problem. Certainly, from the point of view of overall management in any industry, unless management is able to bring the workers along with them, the industry cannot be a success, and from the point of view of a Government endeavouring to force industry along with it, that could not possibly be successful either, and all I can continue to do in that regard, as Minister, is to endeavour to prevail on, to cajole and to do what I possibly can to encourage the sectors of industry which have not so far taken the advice of the experts which is so freely available to them through the various agencies in my Department. I can only continue to appeal to them to take this advice because this is the expert advice, which, if ignored, can only lead to closures of further industries and to a loss of jobs situation.

Deputy O'Donnell spoke of the number of people who have become redundant in Shannon over the past 12 months. I have met deputations in this regard and it has to be accepted that we have had a certain amount of redundancy in the Shannon area. My information from SFADCO and the IDA is that everything possible is being done in an effort to attract further industry in to replace industries which have in recent months closed down. There is the situation in which we have had lay-offs in some of these industries, while in various others there have been further expansions. SFADCO are quite confident that, within a reasonable period, within a period of the next 12 to 18 months, they will be in a position of having attracted in more than sufficient to make up for the job losses. In fact, they have plans at the moment and they hope that they will have in production new industries there which will have provided 1,000 new jobs within the period of the next year and a half to two years.

In addition, as Deputy O'Donnell said—he said he welcomed two sizeable industries into County Limerick which would partly compensate for the loss of employment in the Shannon town area—there are the Ferenka and Howmedica industries, which it is hoped will be well off the ground inside the next 12 months, and in fact Ferenka are at present recruiting workers. I referred to the fact already that Deputy O'Donnell was looking forward to membership of EEC and he said that from his experience of the area as he saw it, there was a great future for the Shannon Industrial Estate in an EEC situation.

Deputy McLaughlin went out of his way to stress the need for further industry in his own area and this is understandable from the point of view of a rural Deputy. I have had this experience myself. He complimented Deputy Donegan for his efforts down the years to attract industry into Sligo town area, and at the same time, Deputy McLaughlin, even though he represents Sligo, was naturally anxious to see industrial development in County Leitrim. This is something to which I fully subscribe. I may be doing Deputy Donegan an injustice in this regard, but I think that in last year's debate he said that we should not concentrate too much on that but should really develop Sligo and provide jobs for people to go into. I think I am right in saying that.

I think the Minister might be shading it. What I did say was that, if it had to be, it would be preferable that people might have to move from one place within the country to another rather than one of these other places. I certainly did not extol the virtues of industry in Sligo as against industries in Leitrim.

I am glad Deputy McLaughlin gave due credit to the potential which SNIA held for that expansion, the huge expansion in the Sligo area. While I am conscious of the fact that the IDA have not been as successful as they might have been in the Leitrim area, I know, of my personal knowledge, arising from conversations I had with the IDA, that they have had difficulties in regard to the provision of an advance factory at Manorhamilton. They have been endeavouring since the advance factory programme was first mooted to get a factory established in Manorhamilton. I have been under considerable pressure from one of my colleagues about this and I have no doubt the problem will be solved as soon as possible.

There are problems of this nature in the Leitrim area but Deputy McLaughlin specifically said the Government had done nothing for Drumshanbo. There is one industry in Drumshanbo at the present time and from the limited amount of foreign travel I have done I know that the management of that factory are extremely active in the export market. The Deputy did pay tribute to the developments which have taken place in Tubbercurry and Arigna. While the Deputy appreciates those developments, he seems to write them off as not contributing a great deal to the economy of the area, but I understand they are contributing to a great extent. The IDA are fully conscious of the needs of further industrial development in that area and are doing all they can in this direction. I have no doubt that when the regional programme is prepared further development will take place. The Deputy thought there was no point in the IDA telling local development associations to try a little harder; he felt the IDA should go and see what the problems were. The regional development offices of the IDA are established for this purpose. I hope by the time next year's Estimate comes around that we will be able to discuss the progress which has been made in that area.

From which benches?

I hope to be able to look at the Deputy's smiling face over there. Deputy McLaughlin said there was nowhere in the West able to take bumper yields of farm produce. This does not directly concern me as Minister for Industry and Commerce—it is more a matter for the Minister for Agriculture—but I would draw the Deputy's attention to the fact that I read almost every day in the newspapers of constant appeals being made by the Sugar Company to farmers to grow more beet and potatoes in order to keep the factory in Tuam going, so I do not think the Deputy need worry about that.

Deputy Desmond spoke of the need for restricting the control of Irish industrial enterprises by foreign groups, although at a later stage in his speech he said he welcomed foreign investment in industrial development. His earlier objection seemed to me to be contradicted by his later statement.

I have no objection to foreign investment. I object to the takeover of existing Irish firms by foreigners.

During my speech this morning I said I was providing legislation for the investigation and control of takeovers and mergers. I hope this legislation will guard against the abuse referred to by the Deputy.

When dealing with redundancies Deputy Desmond said that they could have been reduced if the Government had acted on the NIEC Report on Full Employment. This morning I outlined the factors which gave rise to these redundancies. I do not accept that redundancy is due to either Government action or inaction. It is natural for the Opposition to blame redundancy on the Government, but during the course of the debate it has been accepted across the House that there were a number of contributory factors which could not be attributed to Government action or inaction.

Deputies Donegan, McLaughlin and O'Donnell referred to the subsidisation of transport costs for industries in the West. Deputy Donegan said he was satisfied that the Rome Treaty could be read as not being specifically against subsidisation if a decision were to be taken.

Not quite so—that an exception could be made. I checked on this.

I am satisfied that provision could be made if, after a study, the Government felt that this was a useful contribution. The general policy of the EEC is not to allow transport subsidies which would be regarded as a distortion of competition. I am satisfied that if it were decided to introduce a subsidy of this nature it could be done without being in conflict with the Treaty of Rome.

Deputy Donegan clapped himself on the back for having stirred the Minister for Industry and Commerce in April or May last into doing something rather speedily about reviewing the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement. Under the terms agreed a review was to start on the 1st July, 1970.

The review year, representations to be made before 1st July, 1971.

Yes, the Deputy said this morning that there was no reason why the Minister should not have made application with regard to the items he wanted reviewed immediately after 1st July, 1970. I disagree with the Deputy. The review had, of necessity, to take place first. There was no point in trying to talk to the British about matters that had not been reviewed.

That is not so. The year of review was the year in which the bilateral talks were to take place.

In fact the review has been carried out at length. It started on 1st July, 1970, and concluded by March, 1971, thus enabling a Government decision to be taken towards the beginning of April on the subjects to be raised with the British and about which the negotiations are still continuing.

The Minister is talking about another Article.

The Deputy's reading of the Article would lead him to believe that, if the problem had not been resolved by the 1st July of this year, we had lost all hope. This was where the Deputy misinterpreted the Article.

The Minister's interpretation is different from mine.

Deputy Dr. O'Connell spoke about the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. He said that the agreement was working to our disadvantage and brought havoc in its wake. This was dealt with in my speech. The suggestion that the agreement gave rise to redundancies was dealt with on pages 12 and 13 of my speech. I presume there was no point in dealing with it because Deputy O'Connell said there was nothing in my speech so obviously he had not read it at all.

The Deputy said that the Anti-Dumping Commission were not doing their job. I want to say that this commission have investigated all cases of alleged dumping and it is wrong to say they have been neglecting their job. Many cases of appeals against dumping turn out to be appeals for protection against competition. This is one of the factors: straightforward competition cannot be proved to be dumping. The most convenient thing to say in connection with it is that it is dumping. This is why those allegations are made against the Anti-Dumping Commission.

Nearly every Deputy spoke in glowing terms about the various State agencies under the control of my Department, the Industrial Development Authority, the CTT, which came in for quite a fair share of general praise, and the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards. I should like to acknowledge the various tributes paid to those organisations. My experience in my time as Minister for Industry and Commerce for a little over a year has been that all of those organisations are dedicated to serving the needs of the country. I deeply resent any unfair criticism of those organisations.

Criticism of the IDA that they do not give a sufficient grant for some particular project is reasonably acceptable, but nobody today criticised any of those organisations and it is very satisfactory for me to acknowledge on their behalf the tributes which were paid to them. I want to avail of this opportunity of conveying to them the House's appreciation of their efforts. Córas Tráchtála got a good deal of very merited praise today. Any Member of the House who read my speech today will realise the tremendous progress made in exports, but let us not forget that much of the exports have been generated by the exporters themselves and by the quality of the goods produced. I should like to join with the House in paying the very deserved tributes to those various organisations.

Deputy Desmond said the Small Industries Programme should be looked at again. On the other hand, Deputy O'Donnell paid tribute to this division in the IDA and specifically drew attention to the 7,400 jobs which I had pointed out had been created since the establishment some five years ago of this programme. There is at this stage no positive need, as I see it, to have any serious look at it again. The IDA will be able to look after any problems that may arise in that regard.

Deputy Donegan felt we were not geared up sufficiently at this stage for our entry to EEC. After complimenting CTT on their endeavours so far, he said he was pleased to see they were opening offices in Brussels and Milan but questioned whether that was sufficient at this stage. He even said it was too late. As I see it, Córas Tráchtála must allocate their resources in the most beneficial way possible. They must decide which activities they should follow up, in what countries they should undertake particular projects and keep the position under constant review.

With an office in Brussels and offices in Paris, Düsseldorf and Milan, they will be represented in each of the EEC countries. The office in Brussels will cover the Benelux countries. From my knowledge of CTT, if we were able to have 12 rather than six of those offices, it would be of great benefit to us.

It is a question of CTT's energies. They are now endeavouring to generate exports in preparation for our entry into the EEC. Because of my knowledge of the capacity and ability of the people there for the job I do not accept the contention that it is too late. Deputy Donegan also suggested that a subsidy should be paid to help exporters to get a hold in the Common Market. This kind of subsidy would be contrary to our commitments under GATT and would immediately attract countervailing duties in the EEC countries.

Britain operated a 50 per cent deposit scheme.

But they did not subsidise exports into the EEC.

Look at the increase in imports here from the Common Market countries—from £19.7 million to £51 million in three or four years.

But these are not subsidised.

I referred a moment ago to dumping. If what Deputy Donegan suggests were done in order to get a foothold in the Common Market countries, we could logically be accused of dumping because we would be subsidising the tariff. If this operated in reverse no home manufacturer would have any problem in proving to the commission that this kind of dumping was completely out of order.

Was this ever examined until I suggested it?

It has been examined. The Department, CTT and all the other bodies have joined in looking for ways and means of getting around corners. This was examined and there is a ready reply to that suggestion by the Deputy.

That would not surprise me.

Deputy O'Connell made the point that there was no provision for credit for export and small exporters could not carry on an export trade because of this. Over the past 12 months arrangements have been made for financing exports. A firm, be it large or small, can get credit at the special rate of 7 per cent for from one to five years on the sole condition that the firm gets an export credit guarantee insurance. This new scheme was evolved within the past 12 months and there is no reason why any exporter of capital goods should have any problem.

A very good scheme.

A scheme welcomed by the trade. Deputy Desmond referred to lack of co-operation between the IDA, CTT and the other various State agencies. There is constant co-operation and co-ordination between all the bodies serving industry. There is a special co-ordinating committee which meets regularly. There has been some criticism in recent times of CTT and I got the impression that Deputy Desmond was using——

I think their new method is very good, but I must confess I have been a victim myself of a lack of co-ordination since 1957.

The difficulty is an old one. The Deputy suggested—it rather surprised me—the setting up of another committee.

No. I made a clear delineation of their precise functions.

There are consultative arrangements between all these agencies. They are all linked together under one central body to further streamline co-ordination.

Deputy Donegan referred to the Prices Commission. He criticised the commission; Deputy Desmond welcomed it.

Not the commission, the setting up of it.

He criticised the Minister in creating the commission.

That is right.

He accused me of behaving like Pontius Pilate and washing my hands of the problems.

That is right.

He said that justice must be seen to be done. Deputy Donegan paid tribute—and I was glad to hear him do so—to the prices section of my Department for the manner in which they deal with these problems. The CII some years ago, to my predecessor, and the Congress of Trade Unions early this year to the Taoiseach and to me, expressed their lack of confidence in the Department being seen to do justice to applicants for price increases. On the other hand, the consumer saw the Department as letting applicants get away with murder. It is not a question of the Minister washing his hands, because every application has to be approved by the Minister and the Minister be responsible.

But he is backed up by their report.

It has not been in existance very long. When I come to face this House next year with next year's Estimate——

That will not happen.

——it will be the Minister who will be blamed for any price increases that take place.

The civil servants produce the proper price increases for the Minister, whatever they are.

The Minister, concluding.

The Minister had to keep his options open in case of a general election.

This body was set up in response to popular demand. Everybody wanted some kind of commission which would take the job away from the officials of the Department. Under the previous system there was a three months delay from the time of notification. Under the new system there is only one month's delay. This is welcomed by manufacturers, and understandably so. This goes a great deal of the way to meet the point the Deputy made about frustrations and the losses sustained.

Compensated for by the consumer.

In effect, the new system is a good one because we have watchdogs on behalf of all involved.

I believe you are going to decentralise the prices section to Tullamore; did the Minister hear that?

I did not. Deputy O'Connell spoke also about the necessity to protect the consumer against spurious claims for products. I have spoken recently about this elsewhere. The Merchandise Marks Act enables me to lay down regulations or make orders and insist on descriptions and, if necessary, on the weight and content of packages being displayed. The order is being prepared at present in respect of a number of items and I hope to be able to make an announcement about it reasonably soon.

Deputy Donegan made a statement in connection with Irish Steel Holdings and the question of the inquiry. I do not know if it is in progress at present or is about to take place. It is in regard to the supply of scrap. The Deputy accused the Minister of setting up this inquiry which is not so. Complaints had been made over the period and in reply to parliamentary Questions on a number of occasions I said that if people had complaints in this regard they should be referred to the fair Trade Commission.

That is an old Pontius Pilate act also.

Not by me. They should be referred to the Fair Trade Commission. The Deputy said that he, and everybody behind him agreed with him, believed that there should not be any inquiry.

I did not say that; I said that I believed it.

The Deputy said he spoke on behalf of his party in this regard.

Not in that context.

I went to the trouble during lunch time to check this because I felt——

Do not put words in my mouth.

I felt that all the complaints had come from the Deputy's side of the House and I found this to be so.

Not from me.

No, I agree. I am not saying that. I answered questions on 4th December, 1969, from Deputies Fox, Donnellan, Belton and Burke asking if the Minister was aware of the excessive discrepancy in prices paid by Irish Steel Holdings to persons engaged in the business of scrap steel. There were similar questions by Deputy O'Donnell on 16th July, 1970. The Deputies were informed on both occasions that I was aware of only one complaint which originated from an interested group who were told in December, 1969, that the matter should be referred to the Fair Trade Commission if there was a complaint.

Does asking a question indicate what side a person is on?

No, but a series of four people subscribing to a question does.

If you ask a question it does not indicate what side you are on. I am 16 years here and I cannot be cought on that one.

It often gives a peculiar impression.

The Minister might try to say so but do not worry.

No. I shall not comment. Let me say that I feel the same way about it as the Deputy. It would certainly be very wrong, when we have a Fair Trade Commission, if the Minister endeavoured to prevent somebody bringing a case before it. I would be open to criticism and nobody would criticise quicker than the Deputy.

The Minister could have opened his heart when he was asked the questions.

I must say I was a little disappointed at the attitude of the House in one regard. Deputies went down through my speech, and many of them had much to say about the effect of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement, how little prepared we were, and so on, but, with the exception of Deputy Briscoe, nobody joined me in appealing to the people to buy Irish and to sell Irish. Deputy Donegan said there was nothing in a certain section of my speech except the Minister's "usual jazz" about buying Irish.

No, I said it in relation to small shopkeepers when you were offering them the advice to sell Irish. That is not much use to anybody.

I will not apologise to anybody for asking shopkeepers, big and small, to sell Irish. I think we should do more in this regard. I can be criticised, and many will criticise me, for not raising this, that or the other barrier to prevent articles from coming in so that various factories can be kept open. The necessity would not arise if the people, purchasers, consumers and sellers, did their part. The more I study this the more I find myself having to find fault with the seller who is projecting the imported article. Perhaps this is because he can make more profit from it; I do not know; I have not been able to analyse it sufficiently. I spoke today about £450 million worth of exports. People across the world in the course of last year spent £450 million buying Irish products yet, unfortunately, there are people in this country who do not think these products good enough for them. I find this abominable and I shall use every possible opportunity to draw attention to it.

On the last occasion that I did this I was approached by members of the distributive trade in Dublin who drew my attention to the fact that there is a developing problem in this regard in that manufacturers who engage in export are inclined to neglect the home customer and concentrate on export, only supplying the home market if they have a surplus which they cannot export. I should like to warn our manufacturers about that. They cannot expect much sympathy from distributors if the distributor is abused in this regard.

In paying tribute to the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards Deputy Briscoe spoke of it as a very valuable institution. I fully agree and I appeal to industry to make more use of the institute which is there to give the fullest assistance.

I have endeavoured to deal as exhaustively as possible with the points raised in the debate. I have some further notes and I propose in relation to certain matters raised to communicate with the Deputies concerned when I have an opportunity of investigating more fully matters that I cannot deal with fully at this stage.

It is rather difficult at the end of a day such as this, when I have been out of the House for a few moments on a number of occasions, to be comprehensive but I have endeavoured to deal with all the matters raised.

This debate was contributed to by all speakers in quite a constructive way. This is something that is to be respected. We are always inclined to blame the Opposition for "knocking" on an Estimate. The debate was extremely constructive, and if any of the Deputies who spoke feel that I have not covered some of their points in my reply——

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

The Deputy anticipated me. I have completed my reply.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Vote put and agreed to.
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