Vol. 258 No. 4
asked the Taoiseach if he had discussions with Mr. Health in Brussels on proposals for lessening the present tension in Northern Ireland; if a further meeting has been arranged; and if Mr. Health gave any indication of the British Government's future policy with regard to Northern Ireland.
2.
asked the Taoiseach if he will state whether or not there will be any change in British policy on Northern Ireland as a result of his meetings with Mr. Health and Mr. Wilson.
3.
asked the Taoiseach if he will state the content of the discussions he had with the British Prime Minister on 23rd January, 1972, in Brussels.
4.
asked the Taoiseach if he will indicate the areas of reappraisal in relations between Ireland and Britain following his Louvain statement after the meeting with Mr. Heath; whether the stage of reappraisal reached includes the possibility of altering this country's political or trading relationships with Britain.
With your permission, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 together.
It is not customary to go into detail on the subjects discussed at such meetings as I have just had with the British Prime Minister and with Mr. Harold Wilson, as such disclosure might have the effect of preventing a frank exchange of views in future.
Among the subjects raised by me with Mr. Heath were the opening of a second internment camp at Megilligan, County Derry; the cratering of Border roads; and the pursuit by Britain of a military policy in the North when a political policy is clearly required.
Among the matters raised by Mr. Heath were: the speech by the Minister for Justice at the Council of Europe on the 20th January; the question of movements across the Border and Border incidents; and extradition.
On all these subjects, I made the Government's views clear to Mr. Heath.
Mr. Wilson and I also had a useful meeting, the main subject being the proposals put forward by Mr. Wilson last November for all-Party talks in Britain and Ireland.
Dates for further meetings have not been settled.
Might I ask the Taoiseach, when he said that he hoped that the situation would be brought forward, did that imply a formula which would bring the SDLP to the conference table? Did it also imply that internment would end prior to such a conference? If a formula was proposed, could he say if Mr. Wilson felt assured that such a formula would have the support of the British Government especially in view of what the Chief Whip of the SDLP said on the radio today?
What did he say?
There was no implication in what I said that a formula would be found but I did express the hope that such a formula could be found to enable talks to take place and it was subject to that formula I suggested all-party talks might proceed. Mr. Wilson, as I have indicated already, told me that he regarded the situation as one of urgency, and I agreed with him, and he also impressed on me his determination to do everything he could to bring forward these talks.
Does the Taoiseach envisage some formula to bring them to the conference table in the near future?
When I first discussed this internment problem with the British Prime Minister and others and, of course, with the SDLP as well, I did put forward a suggestion whereby it might be possible to bring those interned to trial and, if that process started, it might then be possible for the SDLP to get into talks. That was one of the suggestions I made.
May I ask the Taoiseach if he would agree that with detention without trial in Northern Ireland for almost six months now, and becoming almost a permanent feature of life up there, that nobody North or South should unduly cavil about any form of approach which would result in internment without trial being ended since that is the key feature in the inter-party discussions which are urgently needed?
The important thing to remember is that internment without trial now appears to be an impasse to further talks and further progress and it behoves, I think, all of us involved in this in any way to try to get around this impasse and try to get the parties together to talk because, unless we talk, little or no progress can be made.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that internment without trial whether they like it or not, is an embarrassment to the British Government and that, if anybody agreed that talks should take place without that embarrassment being removed, there is less chance of having the matter straightened out?
I cannot speak for the feelings of the British Government.
The Taoiseach was talking to one or two members of it and I am sure he is aware of this.
In these conversations with both Mr. Heath and Mr. Wilson what is the Taoiseach's explanation of, and what are his proposals to these people with regard to, the defects in relation to civil rights and social conditions in the southern part of the country?
That does not arise on this question.
It must arise in discussions of this kind. The defects are not all one-sided.
We have a full democracy here and the Deputy should know that.
May I ask the Taoiseach if any further talks are envisaged with the British Prime Minister in view of the fact that it was stated by him in, I think, October, 1970, that there would be regular talks with the British Prime Minister? The situation in Northern Ireland being what it is, I wonder has the Taoiseach impressed on the British Prime Minister the need for regular talks?
I did not say there would be no further talks. I said no date had been fixed for any further talks.
Does the Taoiseach envisage talks in the near future?
I cannot say how near in the future they might be.
Is the Taoiseach now saying that in these discussions neither Mr. Heath nor Mr. Wilson adverted to the grave defects in relation to civil rights here——
Question No. 5.
——as well as to the social conditions under which the people live in this country?
I can answer that unequivocally: they did not advert to that.
Question No. 5.
If that is so, could I ask the Taoiseach to explain why it is that Mr. Wilson——
Question No. 5.
