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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Feb 1972

Vol. 258 No. 9

Garda Síochána Bill, 1971—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

(Cavan): We learned on the last day that this Bill was discussed that the purpose of its introduction is to amend the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925 and amending Acts. At present the strength of the Garda Síochána is fixed by statute and as the Minister told us when introducing the Bill, the maximum permitted strength is 6,000 gardaí, 1,350 sergeants, 70 station sergeants, 110 inspectors, 157 superintendents, 29 chief superintendents, a surgeon and five of the ranks of Commissioner, Assistant-Commissioner and Deputy-Commissioner. We were told that without this Bill it would not be possible for the Minister to increase the force above that strength. The Minister also wishes to create a number of additional inspectors. However, it is rather strange to note that the force now is considerably below the permitted strength. In introducing the Bill the Minister told us that with an increase of 1,000 the force will be brought up to 7,560.

It appears to me that, allowing for wastage, retirement and death, the force now must be less than 7,000. If my mathematics are correct the present permitted strength is 7,722. With a reduction in the working hours of the gardaí pursuant to the Conroy recommendations, and with the increase in crime, it is alarming and seems to be unjustifiable that the strength of the Garda is considerably below the permitted level. We are prepared to facilitate the passage of this Bill through the House because we believe it will give the Minister an opportunity of bringing the strength of the force up to the necessary level. We do not believe that the proposals outlined by the Minister —600 for the coming financial year in addition to 400 in the last year—are sufficient. We hope that with this machinery at the Minister's disposal, he will be able to use his influence with the people who provide the necessary money, to increase the force by about 2,000. We will encourage him to do this because we believe, as do most people, that this increase is necessary.

This Bill provides an opportunity for discussing the force and in the time at my disposal the last day, I was pointing out that it seems to be generally accepted in the House and in the country that the morale of the force has never been so low as it is now. There is discontent in the force at all levels, from ordinary garda level right up to the officer grade. Since I spoke previously I have noticed that further meetings of the Garda Síochána have been held in the south of Ireland to protest about various matters. It does not matter very much for the purposes of my argument what these protests were about but the fact that there were protests is a display of an unhealthy atmosphere in the Garda. Gardaí in Cork have alleged that there were see-saw tactics between the officers and themselves to prevent them attending a meeting held there. They alleged that they were held on duty unnecessarily, to prevent them attending. Regardless of what are the complaints, the fact is that there are complaints and that there is a low morale throughout the force.

It is necessary to put on record, although I do not propose to do so at any great length, that the major cause of the complaints, is interference by the Minister and, more particularly, by the Minister's Department, in the workings of the Garda Síochána. I pointed this out to some extent on the last occasion. It would be healthy if the day-to-day workings of the Garda Síochána were left to the officers of the Garda Síochána. There is general dissatisfaction within the force because of interference by the Minister, by his predecessors and by officers of his Department with the day-to-day workings of the Garda Síochána. There is interference in respect of promotion and also in respect of expenditure, petty and otherwise.

Of course this interference does not take the form of written demand, written requests or written direction, rather it takes the form of niggling telephone calls to the effect that the Minister will wish such and such to be done, or asking whether so-and-so would not consider that such-and-such would be a better approach. It is very seldom that there is any direct demand made or direction given but if people on the promotion list and those at headquarters wish to have a happy life, they believe they must fall in line with these requests. There may have been some improvement since the Minister arrived on the scene. I appeal to him to take a strong stand on this and to ensure that there is the minimum of intervention at departmental level with the force. He should see that there is no unnecessary interference with them. I put my request to the Minister in that way.

I come now to the question of the head of the force. I said previously that I believe it is fundamentally unsound to appoint men to the position of Commissioner with one or two or three years to run. That is a hard thing to have to say. It may sound unkind. It may be said that it is unkind to say to a man who has served well in the force that he should not be appointed Commissioner just because he did not reach the penultimate rung on the ladder until he was 62 or 63 years of age, but it is a hard old life and we must face up to realities.

It is unsound that a man should be appointed Commissioner when he has only two or three years to run. That seems to have been the policy in the force for the last number of years. The result is that when a man thinks he has a chance of being appointed he is certain to fall in line with ministerial and Governmental wishes. When he is appointed the same thing applies because, in a few cases recently, he has to rely on the generosity of the Government to extend his years of service to qualify for full pension. It is hard to stand over that. It is not likely that we will get the best results from a Commissioner who finds himself in that position.

There should be some sort of a top level board within the force which would recommend to the Government and to the Minister a suitable man from within the force. There are precedents for that in other walks of life. It would be a good thing if high-ranking officers, for example, the Commissioner Board, or a certain number of superintendents, were to make recommendations to the Minister with regard to the Commissioner. It would be a deplorable state of affairs if we again reached the stage where we had to go outside the force for a Commissioner. The Commissioner should come from within the force and should come up through the ranks.

The Minister should take steps to ensure that young men of ability are given the opportunity to prove themselves fit for the position of Commissioner if the necessity for going outside the force for the Commissioner is to be avoided. It is very much in the interests of the force that that should be avoided. The way to avoid it is to have a system of spotting comparatively young men of ability and giving them responsibility fairly early in their career. There can be only one Commissioner at a time and there can only be a Commissioner Board of five. It is too late to start thinking about Commissioner material when somebody has just slogged up the ladder and got to a certain stage. There should be some machinery for spotting young men of exceptional ability in the force and giving them positions of extra responsibility at a comparatively young age. It might be that that responsibility would go to their heads but that would be their bad luck. They would have fallen down and they would be passed over.

I dealt with promotion and I do not want to labour it now beyond saying that promotion should be strictly and absolutely on merit. On the last occasion I invited the Minister to publish the recommendations from the Officer Board. As we know there is a system whereby the Commissioner Board consisting of the Commissioner, his two deputies and his two assistants, make recommendations to the Minister with regard to the necessary promotions in the following 12 months from the position of inspector to superintendent and from superintendent to chief superintendent. I put it to the Minister that that list should be published. The Minister said he did not think it should be published because there are more people on it than are likely to be promoted and it might be tough luck on them.

I believe that, in the interests of restoring confidence in the force, the list should be published within the force, and never departed from. The Minister told me on the last occasion that he could stand over the fact that it was strictly adhered to during the 12 months since he took office. He generously offered to let me see the list for last year. I accept the Minister's word —I have no alternative; I am not saying that in any begrudging way—that he adhered strictly to the recommendations and I am glad he did. That has not been the case in the past, but it should be the case in the future.

It is a fact that the morale of the force is low at the moment and I trust the Minister recognises that. He is a practical man and I do not think he could fail to recognise it from reading the newspapers and from listening to members of the force. He is in a better position than anybody else to hear the complaints and to know the trends. Protest meetings have been held already at officer level. Notwithstanding the Conroy Report we had lightening strikes last year and we had protest meetings—and I am now talking about the south of Ireland. The alarming thing is that although the lot of the serving garda has been improved immensely after the Conroy Report— their hours are shorter; their pay is better; they are not obliged to live in barracks; they have more time off— the dissatisfacation is there.

The monetary recommendations of the Conroy Report have been implemented but the more fundamental recommendations, including the very last recommendation in the report that the whole relationship between the force and the Department should be looked at and dealt with, have not been implemented. I leave it to the Minister to do that.

In regard to the position of recruits I am glad the Minister has said that he is waiving the educational examination in respect of those who have passed the leaving certificate examination with a certain standard. I hope he will introduce a minimum educational standard for the force because at the moment there is no such standard. There is a qualifying examination which carries no minimum standard.

I have thought for a long time that it is very doubtful whether four months training at Templemore is adequate to equip a young garda for the complicated and sophisticated duties expected from him immediately he goes on the beat. It is too short a time. At one time there was a refresher course after two years before the recruit was established. I think there is one refresher course subsequent to training but the one to which I refer does not now exist. I think it should be there. I find it hard to understand how a recruit raw from school or from the country and brought to Templemore is to be instructed in all the things in which he should be instructed and acquire all the knowledge he must have in four months. I cannot understand how that can be done and I suggest a longer training period should be given before a recruit is established.

A policeman's career requires a vocation; he must be temperamentally suited to deal with all sorts of people, not at their best but at their worst. Not everybody is temperamentally suited for this sort of life. In general, we have been extremely lucky in the force we have but you come across the occasional member of the force who is temperamentally unsuited for his work and, as in other cases, it is the one person who through no fault of his own is temperamentally unsuitable for the job, or a misfit in other words, who gives the force a bad name. It is not his fault; he should not be in the force but in some other occupation. We never hear much of the 90 or 95 per cent of the force who are perfectly suited for their job and do their work politely and give the best of service but you do hear of the odd member who is accepted in the force but it is not suitable for it and who gets in trouble with the general public and gives the whole force a bad name.

In addition to the educational examination there is an interview which at present is conducted probably by an elderly superintendent or chief superintendent who came up through the ranks 20, 25 or 30 years ago. I believe this minimum type of interview does not establish very much, if anything, and I recommend that these interviews should be conducted by professional persons. We should have a trained psychologist to interview recruits, assess them and decide whether they are suited for the complicated and delicate work required of them later on. There are several precedents for this. On the previous occasion I mentioned the church. I understand religious orders have trained psychologists to discuss matters with young men before they are accepted and this also happens in many other walks of life. I recommend strongly to the Minister that he should have a board of psychologists or whatever number is required to interview recruits, assess them and report on them. This is really in the interests of the candidates as well as of the general public because I cannot visualise anybody more unhappy than a man who finds himself in the Garda but it is temperamentally unsuited to the work and is getting into trouble with the public and with his superiors and his life is miserable. He makes everybody else's life miserable also.

In regard to Templemore, I suggest that the sort of instruction that could be given should not be detailed instruction—I do not know how it could be—in the various statutes these trainees will have to interpret. There would not be time for it. I suggest they should get a broad knowledge of the fundamentals of the law. I am told we are not equipped very well in this country in regard to technical and scientific methods of detection but it is essential that the recruits at Templemore should be instructed on how such technical and scientific aids as are available, work, so that when they go to the scene of a crime they will know what to look for, what could be tested by scientific aids or technical devices. I gather that matter is not very well covered at present in Templemore.

There should be a refresher course at the end of two years such as existed previously but does not now exist. There was another very useful class which applied not only to recruits but which was a daily occurrence in every Garda station, a police duty class. It was held for an hour in the mornings when the barrack party reported for work. The sergeant gave them instruction on some aspect of police duties, some new circular that was issued or some new law that had been introduced. As well as that they had a general short discussion on crime in the locality. I am told these police duty course held every morning were invaluable. They have been dropped, maybe because it would be necessary to pay the members of the force for that hour that was spent on them. I would recommend to the Minister that with the enlarged force which he will now have he should consider re-introducing them.

There are complaints at all levels of the force, and there are particular complaints at district officer level. That is bad, because if these district officers, superintendents and inspectors believe they are not getting a fair crack of the whip things will not work out well. I have told the Minister that meetings are being held by these officers throughout the country. I think it is with his approval, but, perhaps, his approval is not now necessary; anyway they are being held, and the threats are that if the situation is not improved these men will work according to rule. That is further evidence of the unhealthy atmosphere in the Garda Síochána. Several years ago it would have been unheard of that any member of officer status would work to rule.

There are reasons for this. Work has been piled on to these men. Criminal activities of a subversive nature are commonplace all over the country. There has been a considerable strain on the Garda Síochána in the last number of years and there will continue to be a strain, in the foreseeable future, in general, but particularly on the district officers. Their work involves continual checking, reporting and so on. Fatal accidents are becoming common. Road traffic accidents ending in fatalities impose a considerable amount of work on the district officers carrying out investigations, compiling files, reporting to the State Solicitor right up to the Attorney General, briefing the State Solicitor, et cetera. In recent times further work has been passed on to these officers. They are not required to pay witneses' expenses in all courts, in the District Court, Circuit Court and the Central Criminal Court. They are responsible for paying all gardaí travelling expenses and subsistence allowances. The system of medical attendance on the garda has now been changed. The gardaí are rightly entitled to a free choice of doctor. Again, these doctors are paid when they send in their bills instead of annually, and they are paid by the local officers. There are many other smaller accounts that have to be paid.

These men complain that with all this increase in work there has been no increase in staff at the district offices. The staff has been changed, perhaps, in some offices. Members of the force who were acting as clerks have been released and been replaced by lady clerks. However, it is not a qualification for these lady clerks that they should know shorthand. That means that the officer in charge has to dictate or write out in long hand letters that he wants typed. If that is true, it is an appalling waste of time. The answer might be that shorthand is not now as important as it used to be with the advent of dictating machines, but then I am told there are no dictating machines provided. It is a feature of Garda life now that reports in connection with all accidents which have been investigated have to be furnished to solicitors and other interested parties. Surely it is a waste of time hammering these things out in this stage when they could be done on copying machines in a very short time. These machines can be hired from many firms. It might sound ridiculous but there are no adding machines. With all the accounts that have to be paid now an adding machine would be essential equipment.

The force should move with the times. If solicitors and other people were not to provide themselves with dictating machines and copying machines they would not be running their offices economically and giving a proper service to their clients. These offices should be brought up-to-date and the district offices should be provided with adequate staff or equipment to discharge the onerous duties that have recently been passed on to them.

The Garda Síochána is grossly under strength. The Conroy Report did a good job, by and large, because it recognised that we are living in the seventies and that members of the force were not going to put up with the sort of treatment they got in the twenties. As the lot of the gardaí improved the manpower available was reduced. Pre-Conroy a garda worked a minimum of 48 hours which I do not think included meals. He now works a minimum of 42 hours, excluding meals which, in effect, is about 37 hours. It follows from those figures that the improvement in the working week has reduced substantially—some say 25 per cent and others say 12 per cent—the man hours available for police duties and there has been no increase in the force since Conroy.

The Minister recruited 400 this year but that is simply a flea bite. Apart from a reduction in working hours duties have increased and the crime rate has gone up. Before the Minister introduced this Bill the procedure was to recruit 200 men in 1972 and 200 men in 1973. Those figures have now been increased. There were 400 taken in last year and I believe 600 are to be taken in this year. I do not think that is enough when you provide for retirements and natural wastage. I believe a considerable number of men came into the force in 1942 and 1943 and that means there will be substantial retirements in 1972 and 1973. The proposal to increase the force by 1,000 does not seem to mean very much.

The present strength of the force is about 6,800 men. There should be, in accordance with Conroy, 1,625 of these men on rest each day. There are about 500 barrack orderlies and about 300 clerks. That leaves something like 4,375. There should be about 400 men on annual leave each day which reduces the force to about 4,000. When you allow for men who are off ill you get down to under 4,000. The gardaí in the city operate on three 8-hour shifts but that does not apply to some parts of the country. It means, however, that there is between 1,300 and something over 2,000 men available for duty at any one time in city and country. We must be a very peaceful, law-abiding State if that force is able to deal with it.

It is no wonder that the crime rate has increased and the detection rate has declined. I believe the figures I have given are substantially accurate, but even allowing for inaccuracies one way or another it seems that the available force to police the country at any one time, in Cork, Dublin, Limerick, Waterford and the Border from one end to the other, is grossly inadequate. We are living in an age when crimes of violence are on the increase and we should be doing something about it. When the Commissioners' next report comes out it will show that there is a fall in the detection rate of up to 20 per cent.

This, as well as the interference from departmental level which I complained about, is leading to a breakdown in morale in the force because the members of the force feel they are not giving the service they should be giving to the public and the public believe they are not getting the service they are entitled to. There is loss of respect for the force among the public and there is frustration within the force. The men feel there is nothing they can do. They fill in their time as best they can.

I believe, mechanisation or no mechanisation, there is no substitute for the man on the beat. This year on a Sunday afternoon my daughter's car —it was a small one—was parked in Grafton Street and was removed. There were three cases in the car which could be seen by anybody passing by. The car was recovered but the suitcases were missing, the mats from the floor and also the covers from the seats. If a couple of gardaí were on patrol in Grafton Street that kind of thing would not happen very often. I am not building my whole case for the men on the beat on this particular incident. I believe that the city is not properly patrolled.

It is foolish to close down Garda stations. A few years ago I would have said that you would have a more efficient force if you closed down barracks and policed the country by motor car and motor cycle patrols. I have completely changed my mind in that respect. I believe that the policy is wrong. Indeed, in times of stress we see that barracks in danger spots are being reopened. Barracks which were closed for years in Monaghan and Cavan are being reopened, and it is right to reopen them. The answer may be that there are exceptional circumstances there at the moment but it proves that the powers that be believe people living in the locality are in a better position to get information than people who drive in from ten, 20 or 30 miles away. That is what the reopening of these Garda barracks means.

It means that garda í living on the spot, mingling with the people, get the confidence of the people and are in a much better position to get information and to do the job than a few people driving in in a squad car and driving away again. Any of us who knows the ordinary country man appreciates that he is suspicious by nature and that he is particularly suspicious of strangers. To a country man everybody is a stranger, unless he is on talking terms or, indeed, on drinking terms with him. Therefore, the system of closing down Garda barracks and replacing them with squad cars and motor cycle patrols does not work. Even if there is only one garda with a sergeant in each of those stations it would be worth maintaining them, from the point of view of detecting subversive activities and crimes of violence and larceny. It is not enough to try to police the country in a general sort of way.

I referred earlier to the depleted force and to the fact that it is not being kept up to strength. Referring to Conroy, I spoke about the amount of work being put on to district officers. In addition, the ordinary rank and file of the Garda are under a strain as well. They are expected to guard banks in every town in Ireland, to guard post offices, to guard the houses of landed gentry, where there are landed gentry, to guard the houses of English people residing in this country and to guard public buildings. They are expected to guard gelignite wherever it is stored. In relation to that, I wonder why gelignite is allowed to be stored indiscriminately in isolated quarries here and there. I am glad to see the Minister reached as I would have done and has decided to take steps to have gelignite collected and brought to be stored in properly secured buildings where it can be adequately protected. To me the mystery is that somebody did not think of this before the recent robberies took place.

These are the sort of things the gardaí are expected to do at the present time. As well, they are expected to act as school attendance officers. One young garda told me he is a school attendance officer in a fairly built-up area and that he has paid only one visit since the schools reopened last September because he had not the time. He is expected to do a hundred other things as well. There are areas where the gardaí are on top of their heads. Some officer in Dublin sends down a circular to know why the transport laws are not being enforced. Everybody knows that if we were to enforce the transport laws we would be obliged to have a squad of gardaí in every station in the country and to listen in in public houses as well to find out what was going on.

My estimate is that we would need an additional 2,000 men and it is no use saying we cannot afford it. There are some things you cannot afford not to do and this is one of the things you cannot economise on. Apart altogether from the circumstances peculiar to the troubles in Northern Ireland which are overspilling here, we are living in an age when violence, protests and disrespect for law and order are on the increase. It is no use burying our heads in the sand and saying these things will not come here. They have come here.

Planning and research were recommended in the Conroy Report and at paragraph 1193 it is recommended:

We are of opinion that a research and planning unit should be established. The functions of this unit should be, inter alia, to plan police methods, to develop new equipment such as communication facilities, to study the design, use and standardisation of vehicles and office equipment, to study new techniques so as to enable the gardaí to deal promptly and effectively with changes in the pattern of crime and behaviour of criminals. This unit would require to be staffed adequately by Garda officers and by civilians trained in technical and management techniques. There is scope to investigate and advise on the unit beat policing system which is in use in Britain.

Surely to goodness that is a refreshing paragraph but it is not one that would not drawn on all of us. It recommends, in ordinary language, that the force needs to be modernised. We need to plan for the future and to see what sort of police force we want for the future and what the police should be doing in the future, how they should be equipped and trained.

A unit has been set up pursuant to this recommendation but it is part of the Commissioner's office. Apart from two civil servants, one of them, of course, from the Department of Finance, there do not appear to be any outside civilians as suggested. On this matter I would go further than the report and say that although we should have our own force exclusively to meet our own requirements, this unit should have on it some people from abroad who have had experience of the sort of crime, the sort of activities that are developing here. I am told the unit which has been set up is part of the Commissioner's office and does not contain the type of experts suggested in the Conroy recommendation. It is an invaluable thing. If paragraph 1193, which calls for the establishment of a research and planning unit, and paragraph 1266 of the Conroy Report which calls for an examination to be carried out by appropriately qualified people into the role, organisation and personnel policy of the force and in particular its relationship with the Department of Justice, if these two were implemented quickly, even at considerable cost, they would in my opinion do a lot to transform the Garda, to modernise it, to restore morale and confidence and to bring about efficiency.

To get efficiency there must be sufficient numbers in the force. I believe that the money voted to the Garda Síochána in this House should be largely under the control of the Garda Síochána, should be, with accountants, of course, checking in the normal way, at the discretion of the experienced officers of the force and should not be the subject of niggling, day-to-day queries from the Department.

If I were to speak in detail about office accommodation we would be here for a considerable time. Office accommodation in Dublin Castle seems to be quite inadequate. The headquarters of the fraud squad, the detection unit, is in a pre-fab. It is a new pre-fab and a vast improvement on where it was before, but the gardaí see the site which has been cleared there and which is now to be used to build a fine office block for the more fortunate State servants, the civil servants.

The Revenue Commissioners.

(Cavan): I know it takes money to do all these things. But communications need to be brought up to date. I am told that a multi-channel radio for cars and vice versa is not available. The result is an inefficient system. The centre of communications in Dublin city is housed in a building which I am told is in imminent danger of collapse. It is propped up by planks and boulders in Dublin Castle. It is 100 years old. As a result of this sort of treatment, the gardaí feel that they are the poor relations of the State services. Telephone lines in this communications centre are crammed. There are four gardaí dealing with all the incoming and outgoing calls. The result is that there are undue delays. There are only four men there because they have not got the equipment or the accommodation for any more. That should go on record.

Since this debate opened we had the burning of the British Embassy. I dealt with that in the debate on Northern Ireland last week. I want to join with the Minister in congratulating the gardaí who were there, equipped as they were and trained as they were, for doing the best they could in dreadful circumstances. I think what we saw at the embassy shows that we will have to think about training and equipping the gardaí who are stationed in the cities, particularly in Dublin, to deal with riots and crowd control. I respectfully suggest that I am developing a point. The Bill we are dealing with suggests that the force should be increased substantially and I am suggesting to the Minister that if the force is to be increased substantially it should be given all training and equipment necessary. I shall not go into any detail but I suggest that the gardaí who are to be recruited under this Bill, when it becomes an Act, and who are to be stationed in the city of Dublin should get special training in crowd control and in dealing with rioting because this is a thing we will have to live with. People now seem to want to march apart altogether from the peculiar, unfortunate circumstances bedevilling this country at present. It seems to be the age of marching all over the world and we will have to face up to that and live with it whether we like it or not. We will have to recruit gardaí and train those who are to be stationed in Dublin and other big cities in this type of activity.

It was shocking to see on television the gardaí, supposed to be able to do something about a riot, about a burning building, wearing ordinary headgear, without helmets. Surely gardaí who are called out on an emergency like this should be provided with helmets? Of course, this is new to us. Did we ever hear of crash barriers? Should the Garda force not have at their disposal crash barriers to deal with a situation like this? If they had them, and if it was thought desirable to divert people in one direction or another would these movable crash barriers not be a considerable help? The gardaí did their best in the terribly trying circumstances. Out of every evil comes some good. This was a stupid performance in my opinion because it did no good and every harm. It simply resulted in taking the spotlight off Derry and directing it on to Merrion Square. However, if this brought home to us that we will have to be prepared for this sort of thing in the future, whether it is subversive activity, a crowd of university students running amok, or people at a football match gone crazy, and be in a position to deal properly with it, then it will have some good results. We will have to be able to deal with this sort of thing; we are not equipped to deal with it at the moment.

I understand there is an outstanding claim for an increase of 10 per cent and that this is being put on the long finger. Civil servants in general have been paid this increase of, if they have not been paid it, it has certainly been sanctioned. Local government employees have got it. Employees of some semi-State bodies have got it. Why have the Garda Síochána not got it? This is the sort of thing that makes the force believe that they are the poor relation in the State services. That is not good. It is not good enough to argue that they did well under Conroy and that that will suffice for a long time. Conroy merely acknowledged that the force had been grossly underpaid for years and recommended that it should be brought up to a certain standard. This outstanding claim should be paid.

I make no apologies for having taken up some time on this Bill and for having availed of the opportunity to debate the Garda Síochána in general. I believe that was in order. I hope the Minister will take the political paws of his Department off the Garda Síochána. I hope he will recognise it as an independent police force operating under its own officers, officers who, through their merit, and merit alone, rise to the top of the profession. I hope that he will provide district offices with the equipment and personnel necessary to do the work in these offices. I hope he will increase the strength of the force more than he has done. I hope he will acknowledge that the closing down of barracks was unwise and guarantee that these barracks will be reopened. There was a time when I thought that those who pleaded for the retention of barracks did so because of prestiage. It is more than that. Such barracks are an essential part of a police force. I hope there will be sufficient members to carry out the various duties. Above all, I hope there will be a reasonable system of patrolling in both cities and towns. If the Minister implements these suggestions he will have the support of this House in voting the moneys necessary to do all these things. Any outstanding claims for increases in salaries, which have been recognised and paid to other State servants, should be recognised and paid to the Garda Síochána immediately.

The decision to increase the strength of the Garda Síochána is welcome. I doubt if the Minister's figure will be sufficient in view of the retirement rate and the drop-out rate from the force. Indeed, the Minister might give us some information about the retirement rate and the drop-out rate in these days when there is so much discontent in the force. There is massive discontent. That has been evidenced by the strikes, the threatened strikes and the protest meetings. On 26th January at column 630 of volume 258 of the Official Report, the Minister said:

It is inevitable, with such a large force, that there will be individuals, and, perhaps, groups, who are dissatisfied from time to time though I think it is somewhat unfortunate that the views of these members are regularly given such wide publicity.

It is no credit to the Minister to make this statement because, where there is room for discontent and people are discontented, they have a right to give expression to that discontent and to voice their grievances. This is a right which must be guaranteed to them. Will we tolerate a rigid system in which members of the Garda Síochána are prevented from expressing their views or airing their grievances?

There is cynicism in the force because of interference with the due process of the law. No one here will deny that there is interference. We have seen it. We have heard about it. We know that it is there. If one has sufficient political influence one can by-pass the due process of the law. A garda said to me on one occasion: "As I was taking the man's number he was taking mine and, when I went back to the station, I found he had been ahead of me." This sort of thing is demoralising. We need an independent force, free of political influence and political interference. Those things which give rise to discontent should be removed. It is not due to salaries or the payment of overtime; it is due to a lowered morale because the gardaí are not able to cope with the problems facing them.

Vandalism is rife. The stealing of cars and the destruction of property go unchecked. The gardaí are unable to cope. People are afraid to leave their homes because of the destruction of property. Crimes are reported daily but the force is unable to cope. This has been brought to the attention of the Department of Justice time and time again. It has been raised here in this House with the present Minister and with his predecessors. The situation continued to be ignored. The Minister is being forced now to do something and I regard what he is doing as totally inadequate. It is a common experience, having got in touch with a Garda station, to be told that they have no car to send to the scene of the crime, but they will phone another station and ask that station to send a car. Conditions like this can only lead to frustration.

The Minister says the incidence of crime is higher, but that is only natural; the situation is the same in other countries. He forgets this is a small island with a small population and the detection rate here should be very much higher than it is in the countries to which he referred. This is a very small community and a detection rate of 80 per cent or 90 per cent should be possible instead of the low rate mentioned.

There should be completed rethinking in regard to the training of gardaí and new standards should be set for detection. I would envisage special university courses in scientific detection for gardaí so that they could take out special diplomas. Perhaps, we should send a number of gardaí abroad to study scientific detection and teach it here when they return so that these methods could be used here. When stolen cars are recovered then they could be properly fingerprinted instead of having the gardaí saying: "You are lucky to get it back. We can do nothing about it." This is not good enough. We should be able to get fingerprinting done immediately so that this terrible problem of car stealing would be curbed as well as other acts of violence, vandalism and blackguardism in the cities in particular.

I should like an independent national Garda authority established. It would be a tremendous thing to have such an authority completely free of the Department of Justice. It would comprise men who would lay down policy for the Garda so that we would have a force of which we could be proud and which would ensure peace and protection for individuals and the community with proper conditions generally and healthy respect for the law.

I should like to see gardaí become education officers in schools and communities and become involved with communities so that there would be a garda in the community centre involved in community affairs. In this way, gardaí could participate in the life of the community, earn respect for themselves and enhance their prestige. Gardaí have been doing this in a personal capacity and have been involving themselves in youth clubs. This should be fostered so that the gardaí would be seen as leaders in the community and in this way we might change the whole public outlook on the gardaí. Even underprivileged persons growing up in certain areas might then see the gardaí not as enemies but as friends in the community. This is where rethinking is required and where a national Garda authority is urgently needed to spell out a policy which the gardaí have not got at present.

I should like to see proper recreational facilities in the Garda stations so that they could have billiards and table tennis and such things to enable them to enjoy their free time. This is very important. Proper facilities should be provided for dealing with complaints and crime so that we would have a statistical analysis of the incidence of crime in a particular area. This could easily be done if the requisite help were provided for the Garda. If the clerical facilities were streamlined and means provided for noting and processing crime the statistics could be filtered back efficiently to a central office so that we would know the incidence of crime and complaints at a particular time in a particular area. We should be constantly engaged in this type of research in the Garda stations. Despite appeals from Members of the House to the Minister the fact that gardaí have to do clerical work for which they were never trained was ignored for too long. This meant that they were tied up so much that they were unable to carry out their proper functions. Unfortunately, they are still engaged in traffic work. I saw this this morning when I found instances of gardaí substituting for traffic at intersections. We could easily install traffic lights and relieve them of this terrible burden. That is not the work for which they were trained. We are slowly changing over but it is deplorable that the position should be as it is when almost five years ago approval was given for traffic lights along the quays. The lights are not yet there; they are being put up at present but in many other areas gardaí are still employed on traffic duties where they should not be.

Surely it is not the duty of the gardaí to put up traffic lights?

That is what I am saying. It is not their duty but we should have a national Garda authority to ensure that this work was done and that the gardaí did not have to carry out these duties. Five years ago the gardaí recommended that this should be done but they were not heeded.

I also think it wrong that gardaí should be posted at banks to protect the banks' money. We should compel the banks to employ men to guard the banks and it should not be the duty of the gardaí. It is not really a duty of the gardaí because if that were so any householder could demand a garda on duty outside his door saying that he has money in the house and that there is a danger that he would be robbed. If the banks have the right, any citizen could demand the same right. We should see that gardaí are not on duty just to protect banks. In other countries banks employ their own staff for this purpose and we should insist that that be done here also.

In view of the discontent and frustration of the gardaí in regard to the promotion which has been highlighted here without my adverting to it, I think that from the time a garda joins the force there should be some means of continuously assessing his progress in his career. This assessment should be done by persons properly trained for the purpose and should be completely divorced from any political influence, patronage or interference. The garda would then know his work in the force was being recognised and that promotion would accordingly follow. This is vital if the morale of the force is to be improved. This is not being done at present; the history has not been good; it has been deplorable and we must let it be seen that promotion is on merit alone. It may now take place on merit but because of the record of the past in regard to political influence and interference it must now be seen that promotion is strictly on merit alone. That can only be done by a process of continuous assessment of the garda's progress in the force. I would agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick in what he said about refresher courses for the gardaí. Such courses are vital and the men should be allowed time off to attend them. If necessary, members of the force should be sent abroad to learn new methods.

It might help to improve the morale of the gardaí and to give them extra pride in their force if the Garda Band were restored. This band was symbolic of a great force. The cost of restoring it would not be exorbitant. It was a Minister with a petty mind who disbanded it. It was disgraceful that he should have done so.

As is the case with any profession, the Garda Síochána contain a number of people who are not suitable for the force. There should be some means of determining the suitability of a person for this work. Perhaps, after a year's training or even after he had spent a few years in the force, a man's suitability in relation to temperament, and so on, could be put to the test. Undoubtedly, there are a few sadists within the force and these people tarnish the good name of the Garda Síochána. Protests and complaints made in respect of individual members of the force should be examined. Perhaps, there could be people such as psychologists available to investigate this aspect so that persons who are not suitable might be encouraged to leave the force or at least that they would be put in a position in which they would not be dealing directly with offenders. This matter should be considered carefully. Very often I receive complaints and although all of these are not genuine there have been some cases in which gardaí have been brutal, unjust and guilty of ill-treatment of offenders. I am aware of the difficult task involved in dealing with offences and in so far as complaints are concerned one would need to hear both sides of the story. In any case, all complaints should be investigated.

It has appeared in the newspapers that there is a possibility of the Garda setting up their own trade union but it was pointed out that this would be contrary to Garda regulations. The Chair may think that I am deviating from the debate at this stage but I crave his indulgence and hope that he will permit me to refer to the importance of this question. If we are to ensure that there will not be massive defections from the force we must realise that the Garda, like any other body, must have their own trade union. This is a matter, too, that I should like the Minister to consider and approve. A Garda trade union might be the means of ending the discontent within the force. There is no point in taking in another 600 men if, say, 750 are to leave the force. The force must be maintained at the necessary level.

Consideration might be given too to the different grades within the force. Perhaps, extra grades might be considered such as the creation of a grade between that of garda and sergeant or between that of sergeant and inspector. The different stages of promotion might be considered. All these aspects could be studied by a national Garda authority. In this way men of the necessary ability who work diligently would be promoted as appropriate. An independent national garda authority would examine those aspects of the Garda that are vital to that force. If we did not have a proper Garda we would all be justified in expressing anxiety because it is only possible to have real security if there is also a strong Garda, a force that would win the respect of the people and that would become involved with communities, a force that would carry out educational programmes in respect of such subjects as civics. We know that wonderful work is being done in this respect by the Garda drug squad but I would hope that this aspect of the work of the force would be improved and extended. The television programme which features the gardaí is well worthwhile and is helping to win prestige for the force and to enhance their reputation with the people generally. When we compare our force with the force in Northern Ireland we can be very proud of the way in which our gardaí have behaved at various times in difficult circumstances.

The recent attacks on the Garda must be deplored. It is a shocking state of affairs when people are prepared to attack members of the force while they are trying to maintain law and order without the use of force. The recent attack on them by thugs was disgraceful and we would not be acting in our capacity as public representatives if we did not denounce that deplorable conduct.

It would be fitting to have a special task force within the Garda who were trained to deal with riots. I would agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick on this matter. This special force would be trained in riot control so that they could carry out this work without creating animosity among the people. This is a problem which, as Deputy Fitzpatrick said, will have to be faced in the furture. Marches, protests and parades will be a feature of our life for a long time to come. It is a problem with which we must be able to cope while at the same time avoiding the creation of riot situations. Only men trained properly and having the necessary equipment would be capable of dealing with such problems. In the controlling of crowds, the gardaí must show forbearance. The necessary training could be carried out under the control of a national Garda authority.

While many people may say that the present Minister makes one bristle, I would pay tribute to him in so far as he is conscientious and has tried very hard to apply himself diligently to his work. He is capable of earning for himself great respect and credit and, perhaps, of opening up a whole new way of thinking on the question of improving the Garda. If he applies himself to the suggestions that I and other Deputies have made, there might well be a restoration of morale within the force.

It is not the ordinary citizens who fear the gardaí. It is the underprivileged in our community, those who live in ghettos. Those are the people who have resentment, even though that resentment is completely unwarranted. Garda numbers should be increased in those areas, and if they are to undertake the work I have suggested they might win these people around to obeying the law in the knowledge that the gardaí are there not as their enemies but as their friends. Educational programmes in the schools would enable the gardaí to win the respect they deserve. If the Minister would ensure that the Garda is completely free of political influence or interference he would be doing a tremendous job and would earn the respect of the public and of this House.

This Bill gives us an opportunity of paying a tribute to the Garda and also of helping to remove any grievances they have. We shall never have the perfect force any more than the perfect society but we must deal with any legitimate grievances the Garda may have if we are to be easy in our own consciences.

Before proceeding I should like to question whether ban-ghardaí are included in the Bill. I do not see any mention of them, but if they are, then I suppose that in the foreseeable future we can look forward to seeing a female Commissioner of the Garda. I do not say that in support of women's lib. but in consideration of the fact that it is only in the past ten or 12 years we have had a force of women police, and I take this opportunity of complimenting them on the work they have done since they were recruited. However, I have always been very critical of certain work they were given to do which was never envisaged by those of us who advocated the recruitment of banghardaí. In the early days, for instance, I saw a ban-gharda directing traffic which to my mind was inappropriate Deputy O'Connell mentioned that we should have more traffic lights, which I suppose is a very good idea. Nevertheless, I do not think you can replace, by artificial means, the garda in the city, the dedicated man who joins the force because he feels that this is his calling. Gone is the old conception of the six-footer plodding his way along the street and representing law in the area. There were many good points about having the man on the beat and possibly we would be better off if we still had this type of patrol. However, in Dublin city alone there are approximately 700 miles of streets and this would require an inordinate number of gardaí. We should be able to have the happy medium where we would see gardaí on the beat in O'Connell Street and Grafton Street, something which one sees very seldom now. Itinerant children are sent to sit on O'Connell Bridge in fierce weather and one feels that by having them removed one is doing them an injustice. The gardaí should get after the people who put those children there in all weathers. About two years ago I crossed the bridge at about one o'clock in the morning and saw a couple, I presume the father and mother of the children who were going to sit on the bridge at that hour.

The Deputy will appreciate the danger of the debate becoming enlarged beyond the scope of the Bill.

I apologise and I shall come back to the Bill right away. I am trying to point out the difficulty the gardaí have in cases where people put their children on the bridge with a north-easterly gale blowing. The gardaí are hampered by the fact that they are considerate men. The ban-gharda should be sent to deal with these children or the parents who put them there. The Minister should ensure that banghardaí are put only on duties involving women and young children.

We must strive to have the highest possible standard in the Garda and, therefore, we must endeavour to give those men and women the best possible conditions. Many of the barracks in the suburbs of this city are there since the days of the DMP, and in some cases they are fortress-like buildings in which the policemen of those days had protection from the public. There was no attempt then to involve the people with the police force so that the people would give every assistance to the police and in return would receive the highest possible service from them. A number of new barracks have been built in the city, and I am sure, will be built. Perhaps, this is more a matter for the Office of Public Works than for the Minister, but I am sure he recognises the need for the modernisation of barracks throughout the country. One of these barracks in my own area is at least 100 years old; it has been changed very slightly and passing by one still sees the cells there. The public can see them. On very rare occasions a man might be detained there. It reminds me of the time when wrongdoers were put in the stocks for the public to gaze at them.

I know it takes a lot of money to provide a really modern barracks but in this society, facing all the changes that are coming, we must give the perfecting of the Garda force and their bases the top priority. We must have modern stations with all modern facilities. The Garda must have all the equipment they need to combat the growing crime rate. The first duty of the Garda is to prevent crime but that is almost impossible because very often, in our changing society, the criminal is much better equipped than the Garda. I acknowledge the work that is being done by the Garda and for the Garda to make them a really modern force but we have a long way to go.

Generally speaking, the mass of the people do not break the law. It is the small minority who break the law in a serious way. Probably most of us break the law in small ways by being careless, but I am referring to the most serious form of crime which afflicts our society today. We have heard criticism of the Garda but I can say without fear of contradiction that in no other country in the world are relations between the police force and the public better than they are here. There is the odd thug in the city or the agitator who will attack the Garda.

They are not very odd.

They are, in this city. They are a small minority of the 800,000 people in the Greater Dublin area.

I am referring to the odd thug, not the Garda.

The previous speaker mentioned the amount of crime amongst the working classes and the lower classes. I thought those terms had gone out with the Victorian era. I have never accepted that the proportion of criminals is greater in the areas where the lower paid workers live than in the more affluent areas in the city. The man in the overcrowded areas may feel less respect for the Establishment than the man from the more affluent suburbs, but they are both human beings with all the weakness that entails.

I want to pay tribute to the Garda for the way in which they deal with some very sordid cases which are brought to their notice. In cases involving young people, or women, the Garda have always acted with the greatest tact and compassion. I have never known of a garda who acted as a bully or who acted wrongly in one of these cases, even though his task was very difficult. The vast majority of the people trust the force and want to see the force getting the best possible deal. They will support the Garda if they are assured that they will not be attacked or penalised afterwards.

Some years ago a student from Africa was very badly beaten by some thugs in this city. I spoke to him in hospital and pointed out to him that he was not beaten up because he was a foreign student and that many other people had been beaten up in the city also. He said: "Yes, I accept that but surely somebody could have rung up the Garda." When he was being beaten up no one thought of ringing for the Garda. When they were notified they came quickly and they saved his life. An alert citizenry should know what to do in these emergencies. The first thing is to call the Garda and have these thugs put where they belong.

In Ireland we are inclined not to cooperate fully with the Garda for historical reasons. Many years ago anybody who co-operated with the police force was looked upon as not being a good Irishman. Surely after 50 years of self-government we must face the fact that the Garda are our men, that they are there to protect the citizens, and that they cannot do this adequately unless they get the full co-operation of the people. I think this would be forthcoming if the people believed that the force was strong enough to ensure that people who help the Garda and who suffer physical injury will be compensated, and protected if necessary in the future.

I do not wish to flatter the Minister but since his appointment I have felt that he has been on top of the job. He is dedicated to giving us the type of Garda force we need, that is, a good force with the best possible conditions and the best possible promotional outlets. We know that every garda cannot be promoted. We hope that the best means of assessing candidates for promotion will be adopted. I do not know what the system is at the moment. In any commercial company there is always the problem that no matter who is promoted somebody else thinks that he should be promoted. This problem probably also exists in the Civil Service and in other places.

Deputies have criticised the manner in which promotions are made and suggested that political influence was brought to bear but in commercial companies where there is no political influence people complain that others were promoted and they were not. We appreciate the many problems which the Minister faces. He will be criticised anyway. We must ensure that justice obtains in the Garda force and is seen to obtain. Every country in the world is faced with the problem of a rising crime rate. The very changed society in which we live today will encourage an increase in the crime rate. Some years ago in England they had the Wolfenden Report on Crime which made a very detailed examination of the whole problem.

Debate adjourned.
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