I spoke for a short time on this Estimate last evening. In order to bring my earlier remarks into some sort of focus, and in order to have some sort of continuity, perhaps I might recap very briefly. So far as I can recollect I had expressed regret that there was no framework of legislation covering the whole policy on education. I said it was simply deplorable that the Minister could, by simple decree or order, make drastic changes in the whole education policy. I referred to the community schools bungle and stated my intention of going into that matter later in greater depth. I also stated that I am no educationalist but that I have contacts with certain aspects of education for which I have some responsibility.
I had got to the point about the situation in which I find myself in County Dublin as the chairman of the vocational education committee. I was describing the experience I had some years ago when I was previously a member of the vocational education committee. I was trying to get a vocational school built in Clondalkin. The plans were ready, the consultants were appointed, and a tender had even been accepted. Nothing was happening and I went with a small deputation to see people in the Department about the delay. In the course of discussing the situation, I expressed the view that the whole procedure was extremely haphazard. I said that members of the vocational education committee could not possibly discharge their responsibilities to their own satisfaction because of the rate of growth in the area and because of the lack of statistics available to them and the lack of time available to them to follow up the necessary schemes and the facilities that should be made available. I said that a survey should be made of the requirements of the county, that in making this survey there should be the closest possible contact with the planning department of Dublin County Council and Dublin city and that they would be able to provide an amount of information in relation to projected development; also that the figures in relation to attendances at primary and other schools in the area should be readily available and that on this information decisions should be made as to where schools should be built, the type of schools and site provision.
At that time I felt I was expressing a view that was important. The outcome was most unfortunate as far as I was concerned because the school that was ready to go ahead was held up for two and a half years. The excuse given by successive Ministers—they changed very rapidly in that period—was that the national survey had now been started in order to secure this sort of information. I have no objection to the survey. In fact I was recommending it very strongly. However, it was most unfortunate that, as a result, the building of that school should have been held up. Eventually the school was built to the original plans and specifications. The cost was a good deal greater, after a lapse of two and a half years.
I considered that this was something stupid. A generation were growing up in a densely populated area and this educational facility had not been provided. The present position in relation to that school is that it is only half big enough. That was allowed to happen, even when the information had been obtained from the survey.
What the Department do in relation to building schools and in deciding the size of schools is to some extent conditioned by the amount of money available. Very often they decide to build schools that are much too small because they have not the money necessary for the building of a larger school. This is most unfortunate.
The situation in County Dublin, while it has improved, has not improved sufficiently. None of us knows where he is going. This time I returned as Chairman of the Vocational Education Committee. The whole responsibility has altered. We now have a regional committee and I simply do not know where the functions of this regional committee begin and end. When I try to press on with the provision of a school in a particular area I am told that the matter is under consideration by the regional committee. Who has the responsibility? We have a regional committee composed of people who do this work on a voluntary, part-time basis. While they may be making every effort and may be extremely able and suitable persons to pass judgement, they simply have not the time and the job is not being done. This is no reflection on the personnel of the regional committee. The information is not provided on which we can go to the Department and say: "These are the facts and it is obvious from these facts that something should be done".
There is a site in Rathfarnham which we have had for 2½ years. We do not know what to do about it. A school is urgently required in Ballinteer, Dundrum. We do not know what to do about it. There is no indication from the Department in regard to the matter. The over-crowding in the vocational school in Swords is appalling. Again, there is no indication from the Department as to what our responsibilities are. The community school idea is now imposed on the vocational education committee. We do not know what the responsibilities are. We do not know whether we will put a vocational school in one area or whether the Minister has, in fact, made up his mind that if a new school is to be provided it must be a community school. We should be brought much more intimately into the Minister's confidence. We should know quite clearly the intentions of the Department. We should be told what the future policy is to be in the Dublin region. Where the population justifies it, are we to have more vocational schools? This should be stated explicitly. I shall raise no objection. If the decision is to have community schools, that decision has been arrived at without adequate discussion with the people concerned. I am thinking mainly of the parents who have a primary responsibility in regard to the type of education provided for their children.
The Minister has not given sufficient consideration to this matter. He is imposing his ideas. I know his ideas reflect those of his advisers. It is not good enough. It is time that vocational education committees knew where they stood and knew the limits of their responsibility.
There is an enormous problem in County Dublin at primary school level and at junior cycle and senior cycle levels. Some years ago we tried to get the Department to accept our recommendation that the new vocational school in Walkinstown should cater for both boys and girls. We could not get that view accepted. Eventually we had to provide a school for boys only. I want to acquaint the Minister of the present position. There is a secondary girls school in the area under the auspices of the Sisters of St. Paul, who have done an excellent job. This school is a wonderful boon to the area. However, the school is not capable of providing the number of places required. This year selection has already been made of the pupils who can be accommodated next year from the primary section for entry to the junior cycle, post-primary. There are 35 girls who cannot be accommodated. None of the other schools in the area can accommodate them. I have spoken to senior persons in the Department about this, on the vocational side. We would be in a position to provide accommodation for those pupils in the vocational school. We could accommodate them temporarily and allow the block that was cut out of the original plans to be provided later in the year and have it for next year. This should be a mixed school. The enormous population of the area more than demand this. The matter requires urgent decision by the Minister and his Department.
We are concerned about the situation in County Dublin. I would ask the Minister to let us know what his mind is in relation to this matter. There is an enormous task to be carried out and there must be co-operation. Otherwise there will be floundering and the job will not be done as it should be done.
My personal view is that the vocational education committee, on its own, with the staff it has, is not able to survey the situation as it should be surveyed. Two or three persons competent to make a survey should be seconded to this work on a full time basis for a short period. The people acting in an honorary capacity on this regional committee have not got the time and it is not being done. I want to impress that on the Minister and to ask him, as a matter of urgency, to let us know, in the Vocational Education Committee in County Dublin whether it is permissible for us to take in this overflow of girls to the junior cycle. None of the adjoining schools can take them and every day I am plagued by parents ringing me up. I have got an assurance from the people to whom I spoke in the Department that accommodation will be found, that if it cannot be found otherwise the decision will be to bring them into the vocational school there. We have the junior cycle side of the school practically built. More than half of it is occupied and the remainder is to be finished in June but we want permission immediately to employ architects and consultants to get on with the job of designing the senior cycle school. Otherwise we will again be in serious trouble; we will be behind time and we will have the additional expense of putting in temporary accommodation to start the senior cycle in two years time. This will happen unless we are told now to start work on this. This is the sort of co-operation we should have.
I want to say clearly that whenever I meet officers of the Minister's Department they are extremely helpful but they do not seem to be clear enough as to what the Minister's decision will be in relation to the type of schools that will be provided in the future. The plans and preparations are not long-term enough to deal with the situation and it is the cause of great anxiety to everyone. There are anxieties not only in this field but also in the primary section. In County Dublin there are areas like Tallaght and Blanchardstown where there is a city developing almost overnight. There are people going to live there who have found it extremely difficult to find the deposit for their house. Some of them have borrowed portion of that deposit from relatives or other people. They are paying that back and also have their commitments on the loan. They have not got a spare shilling to contribute to the parish for the purchase of a site for a primary school. A site for a primary school of the size required in Tallaght or Blanchardstown is costing in the region of £25,000. That is for approximately five acres which could be regarded as an inadequate site. The school managers have not got this sort of money and they will not get it from the parents because they have not got it. The sooner there is a decision in the Department to take over this responsibility the better. The situation at present is that a proposal to build a primary school will not be considered in the Department until the school manager is able to say: "I have a site in my own name, fully purchased." The anxiety this is causing is unbelievable. The Minister will have to look seriously at this and accept the fact that that sort of money is no longer there and it is an expense that will have to be borne by the State. If this is the price of the type of managerial control we have had heretofore I do not think the clergy will hold out for it any longer. I do not think they should be called upon to provide anything more than quite a nominal sum to get the necessary site. Then they have to pay a portion. I know it will be quite a small portion in the type of area I am describing but nevertheless the responsibility is there. I do not want to divest them completely of responsibility to provide some funds but the funds required in areas where the people are poor and overburdened must be a very small amount indeed. This whole question of the responsibility for school sites in a rapidly developing area should be centralised, should be put on somebody's shoulders.
When we come to community schools we are told that the people in the Department are taking over complete responsibility, that the Vocational Education Committee need not worry. The situation in the two areas in which these schools are being provided is that we have not got a satisfactory site in either area. In a number of areas where we require sites urgently and where Dublin County Council have compulsory purchase orders with the Minister for Local Government they have been with the Minister for some considerable time. All he has to do is to confirm the CPOs but he is not confirming them. He is leaving a state of uncertainty there all the time. I would ask the Minister for Education to use his influence with his colleague in Local Government to get decisions on CPOs as soon as possible in relation to these schools.
I have assured the people in the Blanchardstown area, where I was selected as a member of the board of the new school—I do not know who is a member because the whole thing is so muddled—that a community school is a good thing for the area. I want to assure the Minister that I will do everything possible to get community schools accepted and to see that they are provided as quickly as possible with as little opposition as possible. It is a grand thing that the children of people from all strata of society can take the latch off the same door and go wherever they want to after that and that there is no longer any class distinction in education. I think there was too much emphasis on class distinction yesterday evening. This is not to condemn Deputy Tunney, whose contribution I admire in many ways. He was speaking as a man who was a headmaster, and a good headmaster, for quite a number of years. He is speaking from personal experience and I would not attempt to contradict anything he had to say, but I do think he dwelt too much on class distinction. This is one thing that should remove that.
When I was on the vocational education committee before and when the present Minister for Foreign Affairs was Minister for Education I was pressing for an upgrading of the scheme in County Dublin. I was almost assured by the Minister at that time that this matter would be decided very soon and was under active consideration. It is still under active consideration. A couple of months ago I raised the matter with the Department and was assured again that it was under consideration. I exhort the Minister to analyse what is happening in County Dublin and to make a decision on this all-important matter. I have made rough notes on the number of schools in County Dublin, the number of pupils and the projected development as we see it. There is the School of Horology in Blanchardstown. There are four centres—Ballyboughal, Kilternan, Rathcoole and Garristown. Some of these until quite recently were day and night centres but they are now night centres. We are providing teaching services outside the schools in institutions such as St. Anne's, St. Augustine's, St. Loman's, St. Ita's, Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Ballyboden Boys' Club, Clondalkin Pipe Band, Donabate Judo Club, Shanganagh Castle, Clondalkin Youth Centre. We anticipate expansion in Walkinstown, Clondalkin, Lucan, Balbriggan and Dundrum. We need a new school badly in Dundrum or Ballinteer. We want to get the senior cycle under way as a matter of urgency in Walkinstown. We have had a site for two-and-a-half or three years in Rathfarnham but no decision from the Department. We have Clonkeen Road and Ballinteer, all projected developments that are hanging fire.
Approximate present attendances of day pupils number 2,670 and at night classes 1,930. The number of permanent, whole-time teachers authorised by the Department for 1971-72 is 186. The Minister will appreciate that this number would be higher but we were prevented from employing extra teachers. In passing, I may say that this is one of the great grievances about the Minister being able to make decrees overnight by a statement. Last year, secondary and vocational schools brought teachers from England and elsewhere and promised them employment and then the Minister said: "You must not employ more teachers." This caused very serious disruption. Without any warning there was a clamp down on the number of teachers to be employed in post-primary education. That is a very serious situation.
When we raised the matter of staffing and grading previously we were told it was considered that while no single factor was fully satisfactory as a measure of a scheme's clerical staffing requirements, the number of permanent whole-time teaching posts was, perhaps, the most generally acceptable guideline. On this basis we were told the Department would be prepared to sanction clerical staffing arrangements in committees' offices in accordance with a certain pattern which was stated. On this pattern we would be entitled to a much better staffing at office level than we have. We are denied this and have been over years and I do not know why.
We have no Deputy CEO. The Minister must not be aware of the situation because the CEO is completely overworked and, in addition, he is now handed the responsibility of acting as secretary to the community schools. I think that he should rightly carry this responsibility and that we should have this link between the work of the vocational education committee where we have a number of elected representatives who must answer to the people and these new community schools. That contact is absolutely essential. I think the CEO should have the right— this is not yet clear—to delegate this responsibility to a deputy. I am sure that will be done but it has not happened yet.
Again, I want to impress on the Minister that if he is taking his job seriously he would have decided many years ago as a matter of urgency to up-grade the County Dublin scheme. It is crazy not to do so now. The Minister may come back—I hope not but I am trying to anticipate the possibility— and say that as a result of the decision to set up community schools instead of vocational schools we shall be hiving off, perhaps, 30 teachers and that will reduce the number. With 186 permitted and with the vast number of temporary teachers we have in the county we still more than deserve upgrading. Deliberately, I am being parochial because this is the area in which I have some responsibility and in which I know most about educational problems and can speak with some authority.
I do not want to harp unduly on mistakes made in introducing the community school idea but some things that have now been conceded were the very things that were raised when I went to the Department after the July announcement to talk about the implementation of the proposals. I raised these very points and I was shot down in the Department. I cannot be contradicted on this. I raised the matter of the question of faith and morals being introduced on the final appointment of teachers. Personally, I saw nothing in it and I appreciated the Minister's view that body like that could easily get a teacher from the farthest corner of the land who would sell himself well but might be a completely wrong choice and that some time should elapse between the board appointing him and the selection being made. It was decided that on "faith and morals" he could be dropped.
I raised this. The Archbishop's representative was there. I said this would be misunderstood by many people of minority religions and that it would certainly be used in a way that was never intended by people who would like to interpret it in a certain way and that it would be desirable to remove it. I am sorry to say that I was more or less rebuked by the representative who said they were not catering for that degree of intelligence. I had to say, as courteously as possible, that I was meeting that standard of intelligence every day as a politician and I knew the problem would arise. My objection was rejected by all and sundry in the Department. Now, it is conceded and considered important enough to be conceded but it was not considered important simply because we, the vocational education committee, and I, as chairman, made the representations. We were told there would be no move. At one stage I had to threaten to leave the offices if we would not be listened to and it was obvious that everything we proposed was being rejected.
We raised the matter of trustees and again it was rejected. Would the Minister, when replying, tell us if this matter is finally settled? I understood it was on the second change and that the Minister will now, in fact, appoint the trustees. But I saw there were some discussions taking place over the weekend that would seem to indicate that this matter is not finally settled. I hope it is. I hope the provision of these schools will be expedited and that there will be no more hitches. Indeed, there need never have been any hitches if the Minister had been more forthcoming and had shared his thinking in all this matter prior to throwing it at the people.
A draft deed of trust has gone out to those participating in this community school idea. There are certain little things which need to be cleared up. I am not now speaking for the religious orders, but a sum of money is required to be provided by the religious orders and by the vocational education committee. Why does the Minister not specify the amount? Has he discussed this with anybody? Nobody could accept a deed of trust which does not indicate what these various groups are letting themselves in for and it is my honest belief that the religious orders will not provide anything more than a nominal sum for a school over which they will have very little control and in which they will have no ownership whatsoever.
Another disquieting feature of the draft deed is the fact that the Minister is almighty and at any time he can wave the wand and change the conditions in the deed of trust. The trustees should be appointed for life. Unless they cease to conduct the business of the community schools they should be appointed for life and this should be stated. The responsibilities should also be stated and defined. They are not defined in the draft deed. I would be afraid of a little bit of overlapping as between the board of management and the trustees. It is expected that portions of the community school will be used by the community at large. There will be swimming pools and recreational facilities. If the school were used for a purpose for which it was not intended, would that be the responsibility of management or would it be the responsibility of the trustees? The Minister might look into this aspect.
There is some difficulty about the term of office of the board of management. It is suggested that it be three years, in the first instance, and five years thereafter. I assume it is intended to link this with local elections. Now that rarely works out. The Minister will recall that the first proposal published was that the religious orders would have the appointment of the two parent representatives. The last proposal says that each of the religious orders will appoint one of their own and a parent who has a child at the school will be appointed by the other two. How can this be done? These people are already elected. The religious orders have gone ahead and appointed two parents. Now the Minister says the parents must have a child at the school. Neither of the parents has a child at the existing schools and it is most unlikely they will have a child in the new schools. Is this another complication? Will this be another hold-up? This is the kind of muddle that arises when things like this are not fully dealt with by all concerned before publicity is given to them. Kites are flown.
This is a small matter, but not an unimportant one: an already overburdened CEO is being called upon to act as secretary and have responsibility for the secretarial work of these two schools. What extra remuneration will he get? There is no indication that he will get any.
It is stated that any member of the board may be removed from office by his nominator. I do not know whether or not this is wise. It will have to be mulled over. I can see some complications where the parents have the appointment or election of two members. I can see various influences entering in. A parent might be elected and might be dropped again in a month's time. This is bringing it to extremes, but there should be some decision about this. Unless a person misconducts himself in some predetermined way he should remain a member of the board for three years, in the first instance, and five years thereafter. This needs tightening up.
There is, too, the question of a rescinding motion. There should be some mention of the percentage of people present and voting; that should be required to have a rescinding motion carried.
The Minister will be responsible for the erection of the school premises and the development of the school grounds. Heretofore, vocational education committees had the responsibility of employing consultants, preparing plans, putting up a proposition to the Department, building the schools, and so on. This responsibility is now taken out of their hands and will be held by the Minister. Now we were simply told that consultants had been appointed. We asked who the consultants were and, after a good deal of reluctance to disclose the information, we eventually found out that the consultants were a firm from Cork. In the County Dublin Vocational Education Committee we appointed consultants in two areas. This was agreed to by the Department. They did a certain amount of work. Now they are, so to speak, redundant. They were not even notified that the Minister's decision has made them redundant. This is a rather highhanded action and I would plead with the Minister to compensate these consultants. Like everyone else, consultants have to make their arrangements in advance. They have to decide what work they are able to undertake and retain staff for that purpose. The committee do not know what to tell them but we know they are dropped.
It is wrong that one firm of consultants in Cork should be employed to do a job in County Dublin and, as far as we know, to do all future community schools. There is a vast sum of money involved and the public should know if one firm will do all this work and how this was decided. I know there is a certain justification for it and I know that the Department consider that there is a good deal of saving in time and money in making this kind of decision. I appreciate that this is so because this firm are working in co-operation with a project team in the Department and they have already worked out suitable schedules of accommodation for the schools. Apparently the design of the schools is such that there is a great deal of flexibility built into the planning and changes can be made without expensive replanning. This is excellent and I realise there must be quite a saving but consultants throughout the country are concerned about this matter. They have no opportunity to participate, regardless of the location of the school. I should be surprised to learn that the consultants and architects have not been in touch with the Minister in connection with this matter. It seems to have been a matter of selection without competition.
I have some reservations as to whether it is right that the Minister's nominee shall be chairman of the selection board with regard to the selection of teachers and that he will have a deliberative vote in the event of equality of votes. In this eventuality the Minister's nominee will have an additional or casting vote. I consider this a dangerous situation. When I was discussing this matter in the Department on behalf of the vocational education committee I asked that the same thing would happen in relation to the selection board as is agreed in relation to the board of management, namely, that the chairmanship should rotate. I think the Minister would be well advised to have another look at this matter. It is not necessary to hold up matters while this is done.
It appears the Minister can make statements at any kind of function, statements that change the entire educational policy overnight. The most recent one was to tell the people that unless the post-primary schools had 400 pupils from now on they were to forget about senior cycle education. It is fantastic that a Minister should have this power to tell these institutions which have provided post-primary education, in some areas for generations, that they cannot provide senior cycle education. This is without any warning to parents who may have children in the schools concerned. Now they realise the children cannot finish their education in the schools and it will be necessary for them to transfer to other schools if the Minister implements his announced decision.
I hope the country will not allow him to do this. One aspect with regard to community schools about which I have a reservation is the size of the schools. I do not accept that it is impossible to provide an adequate range of subjects unless there are 1,600 pupils in the school. A short time ago we were talking about a maximum figure of 400 but now it has suddenly jumped to 1,600.
