Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 2 Mar 1972

Vol. 259 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 27: Oifig an Aire Oideachais (Atógáil).

D'atógadh an díospóireacht ar an dtairiscint seo a leanas:

Go ndeonófar suim fhorlíontach nach mó ná £10 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun íoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mártha, 1972, le haghaidh tuarastail agus costais Oifig an Aire Oideachais (lena n-áirítear Forais Eolaíochta agus Ealaíon), le haghaidh seirbhísí ilghnéitheacha áirithe oideachais agus cultúir, agus chun ildeontais-i-gcabhair a íoc.

—(Aire Oideachais.)

Minister for Education (Mr. Faulkner)

Because of the importance of what is involved, I should like to repeat and further clarify the matter to which I referred just before Question Time. We were merely looking at schools which brought even one candidate to honours level in the leaving certificate examination in a modern language, in a science subject and in mathematics. When I say one candidate I do not mean he had to be the same candidate in the case of all three subjects. Let me repeat the results of our survey: schools under 150 pupils, 9 per cent; schools between 150 and 299 pupils, 13 per cent; schools between 300 and 449 pupils, 38 per cent; and schools with 450 pupils or over, 69 per cent.

The question of an adequate curriculum at leaving certificate level was also raised, and I shall just state what the aims are: first, the provision for higher and lower level courses in each subject; secondly, a full range of academic, scientific and practical subjects; thirdly, teachers qualified in subjects they are teaching and scarce specialist teachers who should be available to all children in the centre and not confined to one school; and, fourthly, the provision and economic use of proper facilities for the teaching of the subjects to the level required.

It is a common fallacy that because a child will normally take only seven or eight subjects, that is all that will need to be provided. This, of course, is not so. If we are to develop the varying ability and aptitudes of our children, then a reasonably wide range of options must be provided. Another slightly more sophisticated fallacy is that because a school lists a fairly large number of subjects in its programme, then all is well. The important thing is that these subjects be available at pass and honours level and that the option of taking them be available to as many children as possible and not that certain subjects be offered on a completely mandatory basis to certain children in the centre.

We are now developing an educational guidance service in our post-primary schools manned by experienced teachers with special additional training in this field. These teachers have available to them the advice and assistance of my Department's staff of psychologists. All this is of very little use if the subjects which the pupil is advised to take are not available in the school which he attends.

It has been claimed during the course of this debate that I am opposed to an independent examination board being set up. I would like to state clearly that this is not so. I told the House on a previous occasion that a departmental committee had been set up to consider the feasibility of such a project. This committee have submitted their report to me and I hope shortly to arrange for a meeting of all the interests concerned to consider the issues involved.

There was also some discussion on the question of remedial education in the post-primary sphere. Steps are being taken to provide training for experienced teachers with a liking for this kind of work. In the first term of the current school year a training course for 28 teachers was conducted by my Department in co-operation with the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee. The course was conducted on a block release basis for three days a week over a period of 14 weeks. The results of this course are now being assesed and further courses will be organised. The psychological service of my Department is available to advise schools and teachers of problems in this area. The aim is to provide remedial services in each school.

This, like so many other services, is easier and more economical to provide in reasonably large schools. Our resources are unlikely ever to be large enough to provide services such as this in small schools. There again, co-operation between schools, if it is forthcoming, would enable the service to be provided on a pool basis.

There was some discussion in relation to mathematics at the higher level leaving certificate examination of 1971. It might appear from a statement made that there were only five candidates presented for mathematics at higher level in Waterford in 1971. The fact is that there were 36 candidates presented.

My Parliamentary Secretary dealt with some aspects of the speech of Deputy Cruise-O'Brien. I would like to deal with another aspect of it. In suggesting that our system of second level education, as compared with that of other countries, is not designed to prepare students to think for themselves the Deputy seems to ignore the whole basis of our second level courses.

The purpose of the intermediate certificate examination is to testify to the completion of a well balanced course of general education suitable for pupils who leave school at about 16 years of age and alternatively to the fitness of the pupils for entry on more advanced courses of study in a post-primary school. The aim and purpose of the leaving certificate is to prepare pupils for immediate entry into open society or for proceeding to further education. It is made clear that high standards are set in this examination and it is strongly recommended that pupils should not be presented in too many subjects, not more than seven.

As to the subjects themselves and their treatment in class we find the programme emphasising again and again statements such as the following:

English Intermediate Certificate:

The aim is:

(1) To stimulate the pupils to think, to speak and to write correctly.

(2) To elicit their sincere response to their own experience of life in literature and

(3) to cultivate an understanding of and an interest in good literature.

English Leaving Certificate:

(1) To pursue the fundamental aims of the Intermediate Certificate course and (2) to equip the pupils for life after school, whether at work or in higher education,

(a) by cultivating their powers of communication

(b) by developing their judgment in relation to language, literature and life

(c) by enriching their experience of life through literature.

This is indicative of courses of study far removed from the mere inculcation of information. The Deputy may rest assured that the operation of the courses to schools is in accordance with the aims set out in the programme.

In making adverse comparisons in this respect between our situation and that of other countries, the Deputy seems to be indulging in the old illusion "Bíonn adharca fada ar na buaibh thar lear", "The faraway hills are always greener". That, of course, is not a literal translation. Without wishing to commit the same error in the opposite direction could I recommend that he study a bit more closely what the situation actually is in other countries?

May I quote from the substance of a recent statement by a Minister for Education in a European country. He said that he would maintain, notwithstanding difficulties, the objectives of the major reform announced three years before in the content and methods of teaching the programme in the home language so as to orientate the teaching to the outside world and put the emphasis on the pupils' motivation and personal expression. This was to say that what Deputy Cruise-O'Brien was recommending to us and what is actually in operation here, although he does not appear to be aware of it, is only in the process of being introduced as a major reform in another European country. I am far from suggesting in our approach here that we are superior to other countries but I am suggesting very strongly that it is quite wrong to think that we are always in an inferior position to other countries.

One of the first specific tasks which was assigned to the Higher Education Authority, when it was set up on an ad hoc basis, was to make recommendations on the question of training primary teachers in the context of the future provision for higher education generally. The authority pointed out that as the training of teachers was a wide national issue they felt they should concern themselves with the problem generally and not confine themselves to one group of teachers. Therefore, they set up a working party to identify the main problems in teacher training, to collect and analyse informed views and to advise the authority on their conclusions.

An túdarás subsequently presented their report on teacher training to me and this has since been published. The principal recommendation was the setting up of an authority for teacher training. An Foras Oideachais. I have sought the views of the various interested parties on this report and these recommendations and the various views are being considered at present.

In relation to the entrance to the training college this year with the introduction of a scheme for the recruitment of a number of mature students to train as primary teachers the obligation to repeat the leaving certificate examination is waived in the case of those who fulfil the necessary requirements for entry to that examination. This means that students who sat for the leaving certificate examination when they were too young to apply for entrance to training will be allowed to opt for that examination, under the mature students scheme, up to the age of 28 years. Similarly, students who are too old for open competition will qualify for consideration provided they have qualified in the leaving certificate examination. This point was raised by Deputy FitzGerald who was concerned about the student who was too young for entry to the training college when he did the leaving certificate examination. Deputy FitzGerald will be interested to see that such a student can now enter for the competition.

Mr. R. Burke

Is 28 years to be a rigid limit?

Mr. Faulkner

Generally, yes. I think there is some small factor which I cannot remember offhand. As the House is aware, legislation was enacted late last year to empower me to set up an independent board to take over the governing of the National College of Art and Design. I am awaiting the nominees of the student body and as soon as I receive them I will be in a position to appoint the members of the board. To put it mildly, I am rather surprised at the inaction of the student body so far in regard to the election of student members. The staff of the college have already done so and have sent me their nominees. I hope the students will very shortly elect their nominees and let me have the names.

Otherwise I would be compelled to establish a board without full student representation. I understand the night students are considering balloting for one student member. I would prefer, if at all possible, to establish a full board and, therefore, I hope the day students will elect their nominee and let me have the name as soon as possible. Otherwise, as I have said, I will be compelled to set up a board, as I am empowered to do by the Act, without that particular representation.

The financial provision for higher education has been raised by a number of Deputies. This provision is made mainly but not entirely in Vote 32, the Vote for Universities, Colleges and the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies. The provision for the current years is £10,199,000, representing an increase of nearly £2 million or 24 per cent more than the amount contained in the main Estimate and the Supplementary Estimate last year. In Vote 27, the vote for the Office of the Minister for Education, there are several subheads which also relate to higher education. I need only instance the subheads for higher education grants, university scholarships, scientific research grants and fellowships. For these four items alone this year's provision at £818,000 is higher by 20 per cent than that for 1970-71.

State aid for the colleges of technology is included in the grants for vocational education committees in Vote 30. This also has been substantially increased by 17 per cent. In that Vote also are the special subheads for regional technical colleges. The amount for building grants has fallen because building operations in some of them have been completed. However, recurrent grants have been increased by 30 per cent to £430,000.

I mention these figures in order to place firmly on record that there is a constant and substantial increase in the amounts of money being made available for higher education, for education in other levels and in forms other than instruction and training. It is not necessary that Deputies should try to impress on me that greater financial provision is desirable for higher education. No Deputy in the House knows that or appreciates it more keenly than I do. However, where budgeting is concerned—and this holds for the individual citizen in his domestic and personal activities—one must always weigh what is desirable against what is possible to try to achieve much of what is desirable within the bounds of what is possible.

Of course, one does not doubt the sincerity of Deputies who during the debate always demand that more money should be provided for the various aspects of higher education, but one challenges their logic knowing that they will march steadfastly into the division lobbies to vote against any proposal the Government may make to obtain the additional money required. We are making steady progress in the field of higher education. Anyone who does not appreciate this should think again. Of course, I will admit that much more requires to be done and I would be the last to deny it. Much more will be done. I am thankful for the constructive criticisms and suggestions which have been offered in regard to the various aspects of higher education. Deputies who have shown very considerable interest in this whole matter need have no doubts about my good intentions in this respect.

The Institute for Higher Education in Limerick was mentioned. This institute will commence operations in September next. Already the appointments of 13 lectures in addition to the director and the small administrative staff have been approved. The specialist staff members, graded as lecturers and senior lecturers, have been appointed for the following areas: applied science, electronics, business studies, European studies, secretarial science, computer science and European languages. A librarian is also being appointed. This will form the nucleus of a teaching force which will increase in numbers and in the range of specialisation as the institute builds up to attain the objective of providing trained personnel, technicians, higher technicians at professional level, to serve the needs not merely of the region from which the majority of the students will be drawn but in certain specialisations to serve the requirements of the country. Suitable accommodation, comprising lecture rooms, workshops and laboratories and administrative offices are also available.

The planning board of the institute, a voluntary body, have done excellent work in bringing the arrangements to a stage where one can be confident that the institute will be successfully initiated and that it will develop to the stage of becoming a noted and important element in the higher education structure of Ireland. The planning board expect that on opening the institute they will have an enrolment of about 100 students.

No one can with truth say that I have not listened to and given consideration to the representatives of students and to their opinions in relation to the various aspects of the educational system as it affects students. There is a close liaison between the National Union of Students in Ireland and my Department. Representatives of the students have had frequent consultations with me personally and with senior officers of my Department on matters in relation to which students wish to have their views heard. Deputies who have referred to student representation are aware that in recent years I have had students nominated to the governing bodies of the colleges of the National University and, of course, the new legislation for the new College of Art and Design provides for student representation on the board.

I will continue to listen to the representatives of the students on matters related to education and administration and I will endeavour to meet such requests as seem just and reasonable. I will not, however, be browbeaten or deflected from the course which I consider to be the best in the interests of the community by threats or other forms of intimidation. The tone of the debate at the annual congress of the NUI in January of this year would give the impression that the overwhelming majority of the students in third-level institutions are ardent revolutionary socialists, devout disciples of Karl Marx. I understand that one of their publications for the congress expressed the wish: "Rath Karl Marx oraibh." I do not believe that the picture so presented is a true one. I believe the great majority of our students would wish to build rather than tear down, to improve rather than to destroy. The vast majority of the students are, however, blameworthy in that by their passiveness they are not having their viewpoint adequately represented in the body whose task it should be to speak for all of them.

It causes me neither surprise nor distress that the Dundalk Congress passed a resolution of no confidence in me as Minister for Education. Indeed, had they expressed confidence in me I should have felt, knowing the ideology and philosophy of so many who spoke, that I must seriously consider in what way I was going wrong and to what extent I was betraying the ideals and objectives of the Irish people. With regard to the discourtesy which was shown to me personally I have only this to say: I was invited to attend the congress dinner and, although it required some rearrangement of existing engagements, I accepted that invitation. I was requested to speak at that function and agreed to do so. When, at the president's invitation and in fulfilment of that undertaking. I rose to speak I was subjected to some abuse and a number of those present left the hall rather than listen to what I had to say. It seems to me that the assertions of civil rights which these people had been making during the congress were in rather strange contradiction to the efforts which were made to prevent me from speaking.

I would suggest also that those who remained and who did not try to silence me although they might not have agreed with my point of view, and particularly the small number who clapped, gave an example not merely of courtesy but also of moral courage from which their companions might benefit. What distressed me about this incident was not the discourtesy shown to me personally but that young people who should be fitting themselves to take up positions of responsibility and leadership in the community within the next few years should have so little regard for the principles and attitudes accepted as fundamental by all civilised people. In this, as in the political philosophies which they express, I believe they are not truly representative of the student body in general. If I were to think otherwise, I should have to abandon my firmly held conviction that the future of our country and of our civilisation will be safe in the hands of these young people who within a short period of years will have the privilege and responsibility of guiding the country's destiny. I should like to place on record that the president and officers of the union who had invited me to be a guest at the function had no part in this unworthy demonstration. They extended to me the courtesies which civilised tradition demands of a host towards a guest.

I should like also to refer briefly to the incident in St. Patrick's Training College. All I have to say in relation to this is that it was said that for two years the students were unable to meet me. I want to place on record that I met the students on 3rd February, 1970, 2nd March, 1970, and 29th November, 1971.

Another matter which was raised here by a number of Deputies, and in which I have a particular interest myself, refers to the National Museum and the National Library. I should like to make some reference to the situation in relation to these two cultural institutions for which my Department are responsible. The problems which exist in relation to these institutions are basically problems of accommodation and inadequacy of space. There are questions also as to the inadequacy of staffing, but these two problems are linked together. Seven additional posts as technical assistant have been created in the National Museum. Four of these posts have been filled and the remaining appointments are in the process of being made. A post of librarian in the National Museum has also been created and arrangements are in hand for the filling of that post through a competition conducted by the Civil Service Commission.

Proposals for further increasing the staff of both the National Museum and the National Library are receiving the attention of my Department. I can assure the Deputies that it is my wish and intention that these two institutions should be suitably accommodated and staffed to fulfil the very important cultural functions and to give the best possible service to the community. When I speak of accommodation problems in relation to the National Museum and the National Library I really mean problems and not just difficulties. These two institutions, housed here on the same compound as Leinster House, cannot on their present sites expand to the extent that the tremendous increase in the scope and scale of their work demands. There are great advantages from the point of view of the convenience of the public in the present locations of the institutions. This is particularly true in relation to the National Library, since it is desirable and to be expected that the healthy collaboration which already exists between the National Library and the library of Trinity College will develop and strengthen. The proximity of the two institutions to each other is an important, if not an indispensable factor, in such co-operation.

With regard to the National Museum, while it is desirable that the entire institution should be in one location, it would not give rise to disadvantages of the same degree to have the various collections or departments housed in buildings at some distance from each other. There are some firm proposals for the long term solution of the accommodation problem in each instance. The present College of Art building adjoins the National Library premises. When the new College of Art building on the Morehampton Road site has been built the College of Art will be located there. I have had a survey made of the College of Art premises to see if they are suitable for library purposes. I am satisfied that they would not be capable of adaptation. When they are vacated completely the only solution would be to demolish the building and to have a new building erected there designed specifically for library requirements. This is a long-term project. A number of years must pass before the College of Art and Design will be completed and occupied. It will also take some time before the present building can be demolished and rebuilt as library premises.

With regard to the National Museum, the splendid premises of the former Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, have been preserved and used as a folk museum and perhaps as a place of exhibition for some of the museum's collection. To make the present building suitable for that purpose would involve demolition to some extent, and restoration, adaptation and preservation work to some degree. This would cost about £300,000 or even more.

The Commissioners of Public Works are engaged in the necessary planning and other preliminaries but the extent of the work to be done is such that its completion cannot be regarded as an immediate prospect. I am happy to say that an interim arrangement, which will give an amount of relief to both institutions, has been arrived at. In the new building to be erected in Kildare Street, on the opposite side of the street from the National Library, it has been arranged that approximately 33,000 square feet of floor space will be given to the National Library and about 22,000 square feet to the National Museum. This is an interim arrangement and it is not by any means suggested as a final solution. It will not meet fully the requirements of either institution but it will ease the problems.

As an illustration of the extent of the easement it will provide, the consultant I appointed to advise me on the accommodation needs of the National Library says that an area of 10,000 square feet would house approximately 100,000 to 125,000 volumes, nearly 100 readers and several staff members. We are giving more than three times that area. The total usable floor space in the existing library building is about 50,000 square feet so that the additional area to be provided as an interim measure will increase accommodation by more than 60 per cent. The use to which the additional space will be put by both institutions is the subject of discussion between directors of the institutions, representatives of the Commissioners of Public Works and those engaged in the planning of the new building.

I have given full consideration to representations that have been made to me by the Irish Manuscripts Commission and by other interested parties about the establishment of a national archives. I consider the National Library is the appropriate institution for the housing of the national archives and our plans for the library envisage that function being carried out by the National Library.

In March, 1971, the Government decided that legislation should be prepared to establish a national council for educational awards on the general basis of a recommendation which had been made by the Higher Education Authority. The authority had referred to the demand and the need on the part of industry for actual and potential technological students and for more advanced technological and other specialised courses for the formal recognition on a national basis of such courses and of qualifications awarded relevant to them.

They suggested the establishment of a national council for educational awards with powers and functions on the following lines: first, to grant certificates, diplomas and degrees to persons who have successfully pursued courses of study at third level institutions other than university; second, to determine the conditions governing the grant of such awards; third, to approve courses of study to be pursued by candidates in order to qualify for such awards including, where appropriate, arrangements for industrial and commercial experience in association with such courses.

When it became apparent that there was no prospect of the proposed legislation being prepared and enacted in sufficient time to allow of the statutory councils being set up and to enable them to assess study programmes which students in the regional technical colleges have been following since 1970, and to prescribe conditions for the award of appropriate certificates to students who had successfully completed two-year courses, it was decided to establish an ad hoc council.

This body will come into existence immediately. It will exist for a period of three years or until such time as the statutory council are established. it will consist of a chairman, 21 ordinary members and a director who will also be a member. Invitations to serve on the council have been issued to persons holding academic posts in universities, persons with teaching experience in third level institutions other than universities, persons having experience in industry, agriculture, commerce, public relations or related fields, and to persons having experience in post-primary education.

Apart from the fact that there is urgency attending the establishment of suitable machinery for the granting of awards to certain classes of students who will complete the appropriate courses this year, there will be an advantage in having an ad hoc council in operation for a period. As in the case of the Higher Education Authority, it will provide a valuable background of experience against which the merits of the proposed legislation can be judged.

In a debate which has ranged over such a long period it would be impossible to reply in a reasonable time to the individual points put forward by Deputies, but I have tried in a general way to reply to all the main points that were raised.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na Teachtaí uilig a ghlac páirt sa dhíospóireacht seo. Thuig siad an tábhacht atá ag baint leis an oideachas i saol na ndaoine, i saol mhuintir na hÉireann uilig. Gidh go ndúbhradh rudaí áirithe nár aontaigh mé leo dúirt cuid mhaith de na Teachtaí rudaí a chuideoidh liom sa bhliain atá romhainn.

Vote put and agreed to.