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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Mar 1972

Vol. 259 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48: Health (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.
—(Deputy R. Barry.)

I should like to discuss the question of mentally handicapped children and the number of children awaiting admission to institutions or homes. Mentally handicapped children are a great burden on their parents. The Minister claims to have done wonders and marvels in regard to mentally handicapped children. Perhaps he has, but this is no consolation to the parents of a mentally handicapped child who requires constant care. I wonder if the Minister has seen any of these cases. The child is constantly banging his head against the wall. The mother must remain with the child day and night. She lives in fear that the child may burn or scald himself. This should not be the responsibility of the parent. The State must accept responsibility for these children. The State cannot ignore its responsibility and say that it is doing all it can. I say to the Minister the State is not doing enough.

This matter has been neglected by this Government for too long, on the basis of the same old doctrine preached by the former Minister for Health, MacEntee, that it is not their responsibility

The Deputy should not refer to a former Member of the House in that manner.

He was long enough in this House abusing people. He can take care of himself. It is a pity he is not in the House because I would love an opportunity of telling him that he evaded his responsibility as Minister for Health. He represented a Fianna Fáil Government who have always held that a person's health was his own responsibility. The Fianna Fáil Government were responsible for the long queues and the long waiting lists for beds in sanatoria, when people were left to die because the Government refused to face facts. I know this from my own personal, family experience. This is the doctrine which has been preached by the Government about mentally handicapped children. The present Minister for Health has said that they are doing their best. This is not good enough. The Minister is not getting his priorities right. He has shown that by speaking about the development of a social service council in this country. It is hypocrisy. Before I reported progress the Minister's last statement proved to me that he is nothing more than a hypocrite; he is not sincere. The Minister is not prepared to help old age pensioners. I am now going to tell the Minister what I think of him and of his policies and those of his Department.

We should not have long waiting lists of mentally handicapped children who are absolutely at the mercy of their own parents who have no one to help them, to provide for them or to guide them. The Minister says that they are doing their best. A Government who admit to a long waiting list have no constructive policy. This has gone on too long. I know of a mother who had been waiting 17 years for her mentally handicapped child to be admitted to an institution. The child was so badly mentally retarded that the mother could not move out of the house. There are thousands of cases like that in the country. The Government refused to accept responsibility for them. The Government have responsibility for them, unless it is Fianna Fáil policy that there should be euthanasia. Maybe that would solve all the problems. These are serious problems in our society today. The Government are not doing enough about them. They have depended for too long on voluntary organisations to take care of their problems for them.

I am not satisfied with the situation. I am going to see to it that the Minister does a little more work and uses more influence with his colleague, the Minister for Finance. The Minister must see that we have proper health services. Some grave mistakes have been made by the Department of Health. We talk about helping the people who are suffering from chronic illness. The Minister boasts constantly about the provisions being made for these people and the free drugs and appliances and medical treatment which are being provided. Let us consider the case of people with muscular dystrophy. They have been left out of the category to be helped. How many doctors in the Department have heard of this condition? The sufferers from this disease need constant attention. They need wheelchairs, but they are left on a waiting list because the Department do nothing about them. The sufferers from this disease have been brought to the notice of the Department but the officials only say: "That disease is not on our list." The Minister might consult a medical textbook about this disease. The sufferers from it do not live very long. They may live for 20 or 22 years but they are cripples and they need wheelchairs. Wheelchairs cost between £50 and £100.

When we are discussing chronic illness we must consider these people and the necessity of providing them with appliances. The present means test adds to their difficulties. The patients are fully dependent on their brothers and sisters. This is an injustice. I see glaring injustices and discrimination in the application of our health services. I do not intend to tolerate such injustices any longer. I will tell the Minister that he must do his job. I am disgusted about the Minister's pronouncement in regard to old age pensioners. He has made up his mind that he will not do anything for them. From now on the Minister will have a hard time with me.

A parent of a child with muscular dystrophy told me that there are about 2,000 victims in the Republic suffering from this condition. One parent asked why this disease was excluded from a list of diseases for which aids are available. She was told its omission was "just one of those things". This is a disgraceful attitude to adopt about a serious condition which affects about 2,000 of our people. I would like the Minister to give us an assurance that these victims, who do not live longer than about 20 years, will be given appliances free of charge. This condition is at least as important as diabetes. There is a constant wasting of the whole body. The patients need wheelchairs. They are cripples. We have no right to discriminate against them. They are completely helpless and cannot fend for themselves. I would like to get an assurance, in the reply to this debate, that the Minister is going to do something about these people.

I have already said, in reply to a Parliamentary question, that the new disability grants which have been started will be reviewed from time to time to see whether we can include other disabilities, but we have made a beginning.

It shows appalling ignorance on the part of the Department of Health that they do not know of the conditions from which people suffer.

The disease did not exist——

There are 2,000 children in the Republic today suffering from this disease. Would the Minister like me to go into the history of muscular dystrophy? It has existed for over 100 years but it is new to the Department of Health. It is a very serious condition. The onus is on the Department to find out how many sufferers there are from this disease. I do not want this point to be considered and reviewed at some future date. I want immediate action on it.

The Minister told us that he was disappointed because there was a strike by the psychiatric nurses. He deplored the strike and said that it must have caused acute distress to many of the patients and great anxiety to their relatives. It certainly did. I am wondering what it must take to bring official action in such a matter. I wrote about this strike and I emphasised the importance of it. I stressed in the House that there was a danger of suicide resulting from patients not getting their treatment. A reliable, authoritative medical journalist reported one case of suicide which resulted from this fact two days after I spoke. Why was something not done about this? The blame was placed on the psychiatric nurses but we brought this matter to the Minister as one of urgency. We tried to warn him about the dangers of it and he said it was not for him to deal with it. A Minister for Health must act in a situation like this. I hope there will not be another strike and that their grievances will be completely resolved.

Psychiatric nurses are a very important part of our health services. I would like to see their grievances rectified to their complete satisfaction. We do not appreciate how difficult their work is. We have to see that their conditions are right. There is talk about seniority versus merit. Who is to decide merit? If some person is due for promotion by virtue of his seniority, but a person has a grudge against him and says that someone else on merit alone should get the promotion, this is a dangerous thing. If I were working in the service I would not like to see someone chosen ahead of me when I had years of experience —which is what counts, not necessarily merit.

The Deputy knows very well that merit enters into promotions in every other section of the public service.

Seniority also. May I say that in the Civil Service seniority is an important factor.

It was proposed in the agreement that one promotion in two was to be on seniority and one promotion in two was to be on merit, 30 per cent marks to be given for seniority. What could be fairer?

I suggest to the Minister that he should have close consultation with the trade union representatives on this. They are the people who can best decide and who know the dangers of the other method. I hope the Minister will have a look at the question of nurses and doctors living in hospitals. It is not good for nurses to live in. It alters their approach to medicine and to nursing care. I would like to see us dispensing with nurses homes. They should be able to live at home or away from the hospital. They are much happier and they have a better approach to their work. I do not see anything wrong with nurses or doctors living away from hospitals. All sorts of problems can develop when they live close to the scene. We should take this into account in any future planning of hospitals.

I would like to refer to the question of the State registered nurse and the State enrolled nurse. Medical and nursing care has reached such a sophisticated state at the present time that we will have to consider the nurse in a new role as assistant to the doctor and she must be fully aware of all the new developments in medicine. In our policy document I proposed that we should have a college of nursing attached to the university. The new course for nurses should embrace this. We may need assistant nurses or State enrolled nurses. The Irish Nurses Organisation are opposed to this. This is a reactionary approach.

There is a great shortage of nurses. State enrolled nurses will not make great inroads on the nursing profession. Laboratory technicians had this problem, but now they have laboratory assistants. They opposed this originally but now they see that laboratory assistants are needed. Nurses will have to do the same. In America, with the shortage of doctors, they have doctors' assistants who give injections and such minor things. What is wrong with a grade of nurse who may not have her leaving certificate but may have the desire to help the sick, performing some chores in a hospital, doing normal routine work which would leave the nurse free to become so up to date with all the new advances in medicine? The whole curriculum for nurses will have to change, and there will be a need for assistants to nurses. We need people who will be able to help with geriatric patients, patients who may not necessarily require expert nursing care such as is required in a coronary, intensive-care unit or a brain unit. Why should a person need a leaving certificate for this? Why can we not have this grade?

This would solve many of our problems. Many girls are debarred from taking up nursing here because, due to our present system of compulsory Irish, they have not got their leaving certificate. They are forced to go to Britain. They should be permitted to come back here and take up posts as State enrolled nurses. There is no danger of our having too many nurses. There will always be a place for the fully qualified State registered nurse. The shortage will get worse because the United States, where nurses receive very high salaries, will always be an attraction. State enrolled nurses could complement nurses in their work. State enrolled nurses have done great work in England. But, when they come home here, they work practically as wards-maids. It is not right to discriminate against them. I would hope that the Irish Nurses Organisation would see reason on this, and realise they have a role to play. They could even supervise the training and co-operate in a special course to produce State enrolled nurses. I feel the Minister would welcome this. No. He does not. He is another reactionary. Anyway, he will not be that long in office and we shall bring about the changes whether he likes it or not. It is in the interest of the country and the hospitals. The medical profession and the patients are for it. Everyone is for it, and I do not think he can hold back the tide, because we need nurses.

With the ending of the dispensaries, I would hope that the system that operates in chemists' shops, retail pharmacies, will continue under the new scheme. On more than one occasion I deplored the system that operated in our public dispensaries and dispensary pharmacies. I thought it was wrong. We were not saving any money at all, and it was a dangerous system. Retail chemists are the only people who are properly trained to dispense prescriptions accurately.

A problem arises, however, about Sunday and emergency opening of chemists' shops. I have heard all sorts of excuses put up by the retail pharmacists about this, for instance, that doctors carry ample supplies in their bags. This is not good enough. Retail chemists must provide a proper service to the community. The community pharmacist is an important person. There should be a night pharmacy in the city. I have heard pharmacists saying over and over again that there is no need for it. I am saying there is need for it and they should promote a proper campaign to tell the people that there is a pharmacy available.

I know, even from the normal ailments and illnesses of my own children, that on a Thursday all the chemists in the area are closed. I might phone the chemist at his home, but I feel under an obligation, that I am upsetting him, getting him from his home to go a mile or a mile and a half to his shop. He should not have to do this. There should be a central pharmacy in the city. I brought this up on numerous occasions in Dáil questions and it has always been said that there is no need for it. I do not accept this excuse that doctors always have samples in their bags or that they have what would provide emergency treatment. Many a person becomes ill at night—it is not necessarily an emergency illness—and it is better that he should start off on treatment at night. A doctor could not be expected to have every sample in his bag. I should like to see the Minister taking the initiative and consulting the retail chemists on this matter. They are community pharmacists. It should not be a nine to five lock-up shop arrangement any more than a doctor can operate that system. When a doctor goes off duty he has a responsibility to see that there is a doctor on duty in his place. Illness can happen at any time. It does not recognise union hours, and because chemists are there to protect illness they should not recognise them either. I should like the Minister to elaborate on what he said in his speech about medical cards. He said:

Each CEO is now in the process of preparing for the area of his board means assessment regulations of a consistent pattern, the hardship clause, of course, being retained.

Is that just for the area or will it be uniform? I should like the Minister to clarify that in his reply.

Another point to which I wish to refer is the hardship clause regarding drugs. The Minister will agree that if we can keep patients out of hospital we shall save a great deal of money. This is important with the present high costs especially in teaching hospitals. The Minister said it is costing £60 to £70 a week. It will be difficult for a patient to accept that out of an ordinary wage he will have to pay for the cost of drugs as well as medical attendance, and, therefore, he will elect to go into hospital. He will be very annoyed with the doctor who says to him: "You are all right. Stay at home for a week or two, but it will cost you £5 to £10 for drugs." That patient will say: "I am paying 15p per week for hospitalisation. It will be easier for me to go into hospital and get all my drugs, food and everything else free."

Because many more patients will be pressurising doctors to have them admitted to hospital, we should be much more flexible about this hardship clause. I am talking about the immediate future. I know we shall have to have an extension to produce a complete national health service but, in the interim period, if we are going to save money on hospitalisation there must be more flexibility about this hardship clause.

There is a standardised drug contribution being introduced about 1st April.

Is this the first announcement about it?

No. It is in the statement I sent to Deputies about the new expenditure this year.

Would the Minister elaborate on it?

There will be a statement somewhere about April Ist ending the present hardship scheme for the limited eligibility group whereby the CEO, in his discretion, can make a contribution towards drugs, and it will be a scheme whereby if drugs cost more than £X per month, there will be a contribution of some percentage and if they cost more than £Y per month there will be a further percentage contribution. That scheme will be announced on April 1st. I have no doubt the Deputy will say it should be better but it will be a big contribution towards solving the difficulties which the Deputy has mentioned.

Was that not already there long before now?

We were spending about £250,000 a year on drugs for the limited eligibility group, given at the discretion of the CEOs in difficult, borderline cases. Now there is to be a prescribed standard in a period of one month.

Would the Minister tell us who prescribes what? Is it the CEO?

The regulations will make it easier for the CEO. He will know exactly what he can give instead of having to exercise individual discretion.

This is to be welcomed. Does it take into account the income of the patient? In general practice my biggest worry was the cost of patients' medicines.

It covers the broader spectrum of the limited eligibility group.

A person with £30 a week who has to pay £5 for drugs——

If the Deputy will wait until he sees it he will probably want something better, but he will agree that it is an advance.

Before he makes the regulations, will the Minister consider the income of patients? This is the time to do the talking, not when the regulations have been made.

(Cavan): A man with an income of £17 a week and a man with £29 a week will get the same treatment.

That is not fair. It should be possible to take the income into account and this should not cause any great hardship to the Department. It would be a recognition by the Minister that the cost of drugs is a big problem. At the moment, it would be much cheaper for many people to elect to go into hospital instead of being treated at home. They would be costing £60 a week in hospital.

It is a question of which is better for the State and which is better for the patient.

Dealing with the administrative costs of the health services, I have said they create a lot of jobs for certain people. I was referring to the McKenzie Report. I still think we are making jobs for people. This is the way big business operates in America. I am not satisfied that some of these jobs should be whole-time in one area and part-time in another. I wonder why this should be so. If there is need for a full-time appointment, the man should get a full-time job. I should like to have the Minister's view on this. I am afraid that the cost to the health services of these new posts will be very high.

I have been reading reports of health board meetings throughout the country and I know there is general dissatisfaction. For example, in Cork and Kerry they see themselves back at the original boundaries. The position arises here of the proportion of the health charges which should fall on the rates. Under the old system administrative costs were not so heavy on the rates but that has changed under the present system.

In relation to the big teaching hospitals, the cost of inpatient services is very high. I cannot see why hostel accommodation should not be provided for such patients with minimal nursing requirements, if any. In this way, with proper reorganisation we could save a lot of money. Indeed, during the past couple of hours I have indicated to the Minister where savings can be made. He spoke about insufficient funds being available for the mentally handicapped, for dental services. As I have said, savings can be made. For instance, I asked the Minister on a number of occasions the number of commissions set up under the aegis of his Department and the number of reports. I was told there were two investigations into thalidomide children but neither was published. If public money was spent on this, why were the reports not published? I cannot accept the Minister's earlier reply. Money was spent here on scientific research and the findings should have been published. Indeed, I was amazed at the Department's reluctance to make any statement on thalidomide children.

At page 33 of his opening statement, we find this reference by the Minister:

I am happy to say that a comprehensive assessment service for handicapped persons on the lines recommended by the Commission is being developed for the whole country.

That is a very broad statement to make. I wonder when this assessment service began, how far advanced it is and when some results will be obtained. The statement covers a multitude but does not say anything, and perhaps the Minister would clarify this point. It is a nice way of glossing over the situation, but it does not give us the facts. The mentally handicapped children I have been in contact with have not been assessed. I have written to the Minister making representations on behalf of these people, but other than getting a doleful letter saying that places are not available I have not been given any other information.

We were led to believe that everything was fine with regard to the child health services but the figures given by the Minister in answer to a parliamentary question indicated that very few schoolchildren were examined. We could have incorporated this service in the family doctor service, because the family doctor is the person who is best able to deal with the child. If family doctors are not up-to-date in paediatrics we should have taken steps to ensure that this was corrected. The other public health doctors were catered for in this regard and we should have done the same thing for the family doctor. If we had incorporated this examination in the family doctor service it would have been much more satisfactory than the present system where a strange doctor examines the children. I cannot visualise this system being a success and I would repeat my request to the Minister to reconsider this matter and to see how it could operate most efficiently for the benefit of the children and the parents.

The Minister spoke at length about cigarette smoking, but it did not impress me in view of the decision he took a few weeks ago which indicated that he is not sincere. He is well known in this House for giving lengthy answers to parliamentary questions and all he has said about cigarette smoking corroborates what Deputy Browne has said. Nevertheless, the Minister opposed the Bill. This makes me wonder how sincere he is about this matter, how sincere he was about the family planning clinics, about the Contraception Bill, and other matters.

The Minister has much to do. I am a little disturbed about what he said a while ago that he does not intend to take action or to help in cases from now on. I shall not make his life very pleasant because I will harass him with parliamentary questions and I will see that he and his Department work a little better. I started on a note of hope and euphoria that the Minister was trying to get something done, but the fact that he has taken such an adamant stand about the most neglected section of our community has disappointed me.

Many of these people are living in abject poverty, they are not able to articulate their problems, and the Minister is not prepared to stand up in their defence. I have held the Minister in high regard for many years, but now I am very disappointed in a Minister who has not the courage to stand up to his colleagues in defence of these neglected people.

The Deputy can ask all the parliamentary questions he wishes. He is not going to dictate to me about my duties.

I will see to it that the Minister does his job.

The Deputy will not see to it that I do my job. The Deputy can ask all the parliamentary questions he wishes.

The Minister will not discriminate against these people.

Of all the Estimates, I find the Estimate for Health the most absorbing and interesting. I have listened to many contributions and they have put some force into the adage that "doctors differ and patients die".

The speech of the last speaker makes me realise that to cure the ills of human beings would require unlimited resources, financial and professional. We have not unlimited resources and we must choose our priorities with great care. This is not an easy thing to do. Other Deputies have spoken about the dangers of smoking, drinking, of eating fat meat, of using motorcars and not taking sufficient exercise. I often wonder if we have come to the stage where we think people will live forever. We are trying to ensure that people have happy lives and that they receive proper care as they grow older. I am neither a drinking nor smoking man and I have been told that I do not live, I only exist. Having listened to some of the pronouncements made here it appears that if people wish to have long lives they will not really live but will only exist.

I have 30 years experience in hospital administration and this gives me an opportunity to see more of what happens in hospitals than the ordinary man in the street. Criticism was voiced about the recruitment of nurses. I do not know about the position in Dublin, but in the south we find that the best type of young people apply as trainee student nurses. In fact, we get ten times more applications than there are vacancies. In one hospital in Cork there were 40 vacancies; they received 530 applications and many of the applicants had their leaving certificate. Deputy Barry is not present at the moment but I can assure him that it does not hinder the recruitment of nursing personnel to apply the leaving certificate standard. The matron of that hospital told me that 500 of the 530 girls would have been snapped up by any hospital in England.

I am sure that the medical Deputies realise that only a certain number of nurses can be trained and this is related to the number of beds, patients, medical and surgical staffs. We are in the happy position in the south that an excellent type of person applies for nursing training. It is a great vocation but up to rather recent times nurses were second-class citizens. They did a tremendous job and got little recognition for it. Things are very different now. Perhaps conditions are still not all we would wish but good progress has been made in the past ten years. One exception is the recruitment of psychiatric nurses. It is rather peculiar that in spite of the vocation our young people have for doing good work and healing work which appeals to them so much, we find it very difficult to recruit young people, especially girls, for the psychiatric service. I think this is, first, because of the conditions in which they live which, perhaps, are not as modern as general hospitals especially the modern hospitals; secondly, psychiatric nursing is a special vocation. One factor, however, above everything else which to my mind prevents them from joining is the lack of promotional advancement. They cannot advance as they would in any other walk of life because they are in a psychiatric institution.

I have great respect for what the previous speaker said because of his profession and because he has given a great deal of time to health matters and knows much more about those matters than I profess to do but you cannot, as he says, have democracy for nurses by agreeing that psychiatric nurses should have a certain way of promotion, only through seniority, and then say that the general nursing body should allow in lay-nurses or helpers, whether they like it or not, because it is good for the patients. If he continued that line I would favour it 100 per cent because some of us are inclined to forget that the patient is the most important person. In all the £68 million we are spending we are aiming at benefiting the patient. I am sorry to say that very often I find on certain boards and bodies of which I am a member that it is only in one meeting out of every six that you hear a word about the patients. Apparently, there are so many other activities to be looked after in an institution that the patient is — I do not say forgotten —seldom discussed at board level. I deplore any situation that would bring a cessation of service to the patients, especially psychiatric patients. It is deplorable to right a wrong on the most defenceless and innocent people who have nothing to do with the dispute. I know it takes more than one to make a dispute and I am not apportioning blame to one or other, but before people take an action like that they should consider the innocent victims who will suffer most even if they gain their objective. Surely at this time in our history people of that standard of education should be able to sit around a table and solve their problems without drastic action.

We are very lucky in Cork, and I am sure this is also the case in most of the country, in the number of voluntary workers we get to help out in various hospitals and clinics. We have a tremendous service in Our Lady's Hospital, which is a psychiatric hospital. I was on the board there many years ago and, with other speakers, I can deplore the condition of some of it still, but I am glad that thousands of pounds have been spent on it in the past two years. I remember when it was infinitely worse than it is now. Progress has been and is being made. We have a voluntary organisation, the Mental Welfare Association, and hundreds of Cork citizens visit the patients, read or walk with them and do everything possible to ensure that they feel they belong to the community and that somebody takes an interest in their welfare. Very often these people have relatives who do not visit them at all.

We also have voluntary workers and organisations in our city in connection with polio, spastic and rehabilitation patients. In any place where you need help and volunteers you will get them in large measure. The only thing I would say to the Minister about that is that I feel there is a danger they may dissipate their energies by overlapping. Persons or organisations with the best intentions begin to take care of some clinic or school or institution and very shortly find they are doing similar work in another body of a similar nature. I do not want them to lose their identity but to continue enrolling workers and recruiting more help and I should like to see co-operation and co-ordination of their efforts so as to avoid overlapping. I need scarcely tell the Department that their value financially is incalculable. One could not pay for the service they give. I think nobody would give the service for pay that many of these people give freely.

I am very pleased with the Minister's idea of setting up a unit in his Department to be concerned with work study and management. That unit should have as one of their functions the overseeing of the general health of the country and the various bodies down to the smallest unit, and give all the help possible. We say we have more hospital beds per thousand of the population than any other European country but judging by my own experience if we doubled the number of hospital beds tomorrow they would all be filled in a month's time and there would be no trouble in doing that.

I wish there was less encouragement for people to go to hospital. I agree with the previous speaker and others on this point because anybody connected with hospital administration must realise that it is cheaper for the State and better for the patient very often, for the patient to stay at home and be cared for at home. I ask the Minister to use his influence with the Department of Social Welfare, if that is necessary, to see that people get some financial help towards keeping their old folk at home. Anything that would help to shorten the stay in hospital would be very welcome.

I am neither a smoking nor a drinking man but for years past I have felt that the campaign against smoking may have obscured something. I am against smoking. I fully realise its ill effects, especially on young persons who are interested in sports. I have always deplored smoking, which does not help any one of them. But I feel we are inclined to forget that excessive drinking brings more misery to more people. The excessive drinker may be a patient who is ill and he brings misery to his wife, family and friends, but the man addicted to drugs or smoking, while he may kill himself — and, of course, then he will be a loss to somebody — he does not bring the same circle of misery to the people around him as does the man or woman who drinks excessively. It is disturbing to hear today of so many young ladies who are drinking. I can only express the hope that they will be discreet in their drinking habits.

The Minister supplied us with a very detailed account of the activities of his Department. I was glad to hear Deputy O'Connell praise the Minister and, of course, he criticised him too. Earlier in the afternoon Deputy O'Connell expressed the hope that the Minister would be left in the Department of Health for some years to come but because of some remarks made by the Minister subsequently Deputy O'Connell changed his mind.

I certainly did.

I think Deputy O'Connell would be the first to admit that we could have a much worse Minister for Health than the present occupant of that office. It annoys me to hear the view put forward year after year that the health services should not constitute more than 10p in the £. That sort of money will not provide very much nowadays. When the 2s was fixed, the late Dr. Ryan, as Minister for Health, tried to bring in a Health Bill that would have been far in advance of anything we had up to then but that Bill met with severe opposition. When Dr. Ryan decided on a figure of 2s in the £ he could not have imagined the kind of situation that we are dealing with now and the amount of money that must be spent in providing the various services. One might understand various matters being used to some extent for political capital but I am sorry that the question of health should be reduced to the status of a political punch bag. No honest person could agree that 10p should still be the amount paid on the rates towards the health services.

Another question which comes up annually is that of the financing of the health services from the Central Fund. Many people advocate that but I have never agreed with the suggestion. In my county most of the people who put forward the suggestion are those who are most anxious to have representation on every board connected with health administration. If there should be no payment from the rates towards the health service, I do not see how these people could expect representation on the administrative side.

People talk about the Government providing money as if the money could be found without the collection of rates and taxes and so on. I can understand why the Minister ensures some of the expense is carried at local level. We must think of some other way of raising the necessary moneys than the method used now but until such time as that can be done, one cannot expect the Central Government to bear the whole cost of the health service. This year the Minister was able to persuade his colleagues to make available an extra subvention of £5½ million. This went a long way towards easing the burden and was in many cases more than two-thirds of the cost that would fall on the rates in the normal way.

The Minister has presented the House with a very elaborate brief, a record of what has been done and promulgations of what it is hoped to do. Tremendous advances have been made in the last ten years. It is impossible to meet all demands and no one knows that better than those of us who are members of local authorities. Not a meeting passes without a demand for yet another service. The only time there is any hedging is when it comes to striking the rate; then it is the faceless men in the Department and the Minister who are blamed, depending on which side of this House one sits. That is not good enough. Credit must be given where credit is due. There is another side to the coin: if people want specialists, they will have to pay for them; if they want hospitals, they will have to pay for them; if they want more services, they will have to pay for them.

With regard to the dental hospital in Cork, I would ask the Minister to come to a decision one way or the other as soon as possible. It is rather disheartening to find ourselves educating dentists and then failing miserably to provide a dental service. No sooner do these young men graduate than they go to England where, because of a shortage of dentists, they can command very high salaries. We should get some return for our investment in these people because not one of them graduates without some State aid.

The Minister has proved himself a very dedicated Minister. Professional men all over the country, though they may differ from him in some things, are agreed that he is probably the best Minister for Health we have ever had.

I would ask the Minister to accept that circumstances in rural Ireland, particularly in the west, are different from those in the bigger centres of population. The two previous speakers come from urban areas in which there are numbers of hospitals, doctors and consultants. I come from an area in which we have one surgical hospital. In 1969 a member of the Cabinet promised in Roscommon that this hospital would be upgraded; that promise was made in the presence of the Taoiseach. On February 23rd, 1970, that self-same Minister at a meeting of Roscommon County Council gave an undertaking that, before any major change would take place, there would be consultations with the local authority. It is time some definite decision was made known to the people of Roscommon as to what will happen to this hospital. I would like the Minister to deal with this matter in his reply. Plans and an estimate of the cost for the new extension to Roscommon County Hospital were submitted to the Department of Health on 25th September, 1970, for the purpose of increasing the bed complement from 126 to 203. The Department, instead of considering the plans, deferred the matter until the new body was formed. Despite that, we have had an increase in the rates.

Roscommon has the most up-to-date maternity unit in the whole country. The extension to this unit in 1968 cost £104,000. It is fully equipped. Recently a new X-ray machine was installed at a cost of £20,000. When the new hospital boards are established is there a possibility that this equipment might be requisitioned by another hospital within the region? This is a matter that concerns the people of Roscommon because this was purchased and paid for by the local authority of the county. With the establishment of regional health boards the authority invested in the local body will be limited to ordinary routine business and major changes can be effected only after consultation with the regional health board.

Recently a number of medical cards were withdrawn because there was a slight increase in valuation or a slight rise in salary. There was no allowance made for the increase in the cost of living and the fall in the value of money.

Again, patients attending out-patient clinics in Dublin are brought to Roscommon Hospital or the county home at a very early hour, possibly five o'clock or six o'clock in the morning, in order to be here in Dublin before ten o'clock; if they are not in Dublin by that time they will not be examined by the consultants. This constitutes a hardship on old people particularly on cold winter mornings. Would it not be possible to bring the consultant from Dublin once a month, or every other month, to examine these patients?

We have a grave shortage of dentists in Roscommon and a long waiting list for dentures. The system at the moment is that dentists drive from one dispensary to another. I have been approached by patients who attended dispensaries in three consecutive months and no dentist arrived. Granted the dentist may get sick or his car may break down, but would it not be more satisfactory if the dentist worked whole-time in a clinic where the patient could visit him instead of having the dentist driving from dispensary to dispensary?

There would be no need for our aged to end their days in county homes if the Minister would give an allowance to relatives to care for them. I do not mean now the same allowance that the Minister for Social Welfare gives because his allowance is very limited indeed. The aged person has to be living alone. It is really useless. If an allowance were given to a relative, whether married or single, a son or a daughter, a son-in-law or a daughter-in-law, to care for an aged relative that would be a far more satisfactory situation. It would also be cheaper in the long run because it costs at least £10 a week to keep these aged people in county homes. As well as that, the aged person would be much happier surrounded by grandchildren.

I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Irish Nurses Organisation for all they have done and are doing to improve conditions and standards. As a nurse, I appreciate the crying need for this organisation and its work. I deplore the insistence on leaving certificate for admittance to the profession. Academic qualifications are all very well in their own way, but they are no substitute for responsibility, cheerfulness, kindness, dedication and willingness to serve. These are the things a patient expects from a nurse.

Thousands of girls, admirably suited for this noble profession, are denied admittance to training simply because they fail a subject in their leaving certificate; very often this is the very controversial subject, compulsory Irish. Knowledge of the Irish language will not make them better nurses. I should like to see the establishment in the near future of the promised college for nurses. The emphasis at the moment is on the establishment of regional health boards. We should get our priorities right. Care of the sick starts and finishes at the bedside of the sick person and all the advances in management techniques, administration and training are no good if the nurse herself is not properly trained. Needless to say she cannot be so trained if she is not the proper material.

What progress has the Minister made in resolving the grievances of the psychiatric nurses?

The Minister should make a bigger contribution towards the cost of the health services. The extra grant of £5½ million which he has made available this year has already been collected by him under the 1971 Health Contributions Act. One of the reasons given by the Department why local authorities should bear a proportion of the health charges was that these local authorities had a say in the running of the health services. This is no longer the case. That being so the Exchequer should now provide more.

I am not satisfied with the composition of the health boards. Counties which hitherto ran their own hospitals may not even have representatives on the new hospital board.

I should like to congratulate the Minister for Health and the officers of his Department on the marked improvement in the health services. This improvement, of course, has resulted in an increased burden on the local authorities particularly in Dublin which, I understand, does not stand to benefit from the £5 million recently announced by the Minister. I am conscious, too, of the continuing spiralling of health charges which has created serious financial problems for the city and, to a lesser extent, for local authorities. I note that some representatives who could be regarded as being conservative in their thinking have protested about these charges and have implied that if they were in charge and if the old system had been continued these increases would not arise. Therefore, I was glad to see that the Minister recently pointed out that the extra administrative charges would not amount to more than a halfpenny in the £ in the share borne by the rates.

The Minister took a step forward in the setting up of the regional health boards. I am a member of the Eastern Health Board and I should like to pay a tribute to the medical and other ancillary professions associated with this body. They are making very valuable and constructive contributions towards the welfare of the citizens. It is an example of co-operative community effort and has been to me personally a very revealing experience.

We all know that the cost of health services has increased enormously in the past ten years. We have witnessed their improvement. There are more expert personnel running them. There are advanced methods and expensive drugs and equipment used for the treatment of patients. The question is raised as to whether a different method of collection of revenue to defray costs should be devised. To put the whole cost on to general taxation might not be the right answer. The possibility of putting it on a new national health insurance basis might be worth considering. I would ask the Minister, in his reply, having regard to the escalating cost of the services and the burden on taxpayers and ratepayers, whether he would keep this point in mind. I would point to the success of the voluntary health insurance scheme which provides a high level of service with a minimum of management and retains effective control. It provides us with a valuable headline. Contributors have a range of services to choose from and they can obtain cover for their needs according to their incomes. That organisation has shown a willingness to extend the range of benefits according as finances improve and as they gain experience. I would ask the Minister to take a serious look at the whole structure of the financing of the health services and having regard to the experience of the Voluntary Health Insurance Board, see if some better method can be evolved for the financing of our general health services.

I should like to join with other Deputies in speaking about the appalling lack of accommodation for geriatric patients. This is particularly marked in Dublin city. St. Kevin's Hospital has now been completely changed and is known as St. James's Hospital. It is being organised as one of the leading general hospitals of the city and I understand that it is the policy to phase out geriatric patients. There are no new admissions. There is no alternative accommodation available for these patients.

I have personal experience of the great difficulty there is in obtaining admission of a patient to St. Mary's Hospital. Understandably, there is a waiting list and a process of assessment and I hold with that. There is an urgent need for the provision of more accommodation for old people. It is a big problem in some of the older urban centres where many people are, unfortunately, living alone with, perhaps, their relatives far removed from them. At times the neighbours have to look after these old people. I would ask the Minister to keep this urgent problem in mind. It is an acute problem in Dublin but I am sure it exists in other areas too. Any public representative in this city can testify to the difficulty there is in getting a patient admitted to St. Mary's which is the only geriatric hospital as far as I am aware. There is another hospice which accepts geriatric patients under a different system of certification but this does not meet the situation in regard to the kind of case I have in mind.

I would also ask the Minister in his reply to deal with the problem facing this expanding city. The constituency I represent, North-East Dublin, is rapidly expanding. New housing areas are being developed and new families coming in. There are no hospital facilities in the constituency. On the north side of the city we only have the Mater Hospital, Jervis Street Hospital and the Richmond. These are traditional hospitals which served the needs of a much smaller population than that which we have today. In any policy that is being formulated by the Department of Health I suggest that the needs of these rapidly growing districts should be taken into account. Suitable facilities should be provided whether by way of a general hospital, maternity hospital or emergency hospital to cater for the needs of the people. There is a vast number of young people living in these areas. We have had the experience of young children meeting with accidents and the time taken for the ambulance to arrive at the scene of the accident, having to come from the centre of the city, through traffic, a distance of five or six miles, means that the victim of the accident is exposed to greater risk. The community should have a better service. The Department should address itself to these problems.

On the general question of public health, I should like once again to congratulate the Department on what they are doing to improve the facilities and to inform the public. Greater use should be made of the television and radio services to promote the objectives of the Department.

While efforts are being made to improve the health services we who live in the country are of the opinion that the machinery set up recently is too expensive, completely bureaucratic and too remote from the people. Having been a member of a hospital board for a number of years I am of the opinion that the closer the organisation is to the people, the better. The new organisation is covering a very large area. The people are hardly able to get in touch with it and are therefore unable to derive the benefits they should get.

In the last few years rates have increased. County councils now are charged with the burden of collecting rates that the people cannot afford, in order to implement the schemes devised by the Department of Health. The people did get a service from the already existing hospitals. There was no need for this violent change. Things are moving so fast that the people are not able to keep in touch and cannot afford to pay the rates demanded of them.

We saw an announcement in the papers today that the health charge in some counties has gone as high as 9/-in the £. It is obvious to any Minister and to the Government that the writing is on the wall. The people simply cannot afford such charges. It would be all right if they got good results but, as I have said, the services are too remote from the people for them to be able to benefit by them.

In my constituency there is Bantry Hospital which was built some ten or 12 years ago and has been of tremendous benefit to the people of the area. The area served by the hospital extends from the Kenmare River to Cork, the former West Cork Board of Health area. Prior to the building of that hospital persons requiring hospital attention had to travel from the glens and mountains of Ardgroom to Cork city. Many who undertook that journey died on the way. When the hospital was built in Bantry, the people were delighted. It is a well run, up-to-date hospital, a credit to the staff who run it and to those who built it.

I can assure the Minister that if that hospital is downgraded or closed, the people will rise in protest. I warn the Minister and the Department that the protests in Mallow will be mere tea parties compared with the protests that there will be in West Cork. I say that with a knowledge of what is happening. I appeal to the Minister and to his Department to ensure that the hospital is continued on the present basis and that it is not downgraded or closed. The hospital serves the people of that wide area. The next nearest hospital is, in the case of some of the people, 100 miles away. Workmen on the island who received serious injury during the building of the Gulf Oil plant and fishermen injured while fishing around the coast came to Bantry Hospital for attention. I have seen them there. French and Spanish fishermen have been brought into Bantry Hospital for treatment of injuries received at sea. But for the fact that their injuries could be attended to at that hospital, many of these men would never have returned home.

I would ask the Minister and the Department to reconsider any decision to close or downgrade Bantry Hospital. The people there are determined to retain the service they fought so hard to get and for which they waited so long. There is no reason to downgrade that hospital. The staff are excellent and do a great job of work. The sisters and nurses are highly skilled. The operations carried out there are too numerous to mention. The benefit conferred on the area is considerable. Urgent cases can be treated at Bantry Hospital. In some cases, if the patients had to be taken to Cork, the position would be the same as before Bantry Hospital was built: they would die on the way. The people deserve something better than that.

Like my former colleague from West Cork, I shall not delay the House more than five minutes. I am sure the Minister will be pleased to hear that but he may not be too pleased with what else I have to say to him.

With all respect to the Tánaiste, whatever he touches, no matter how he may improve matters, costs the earth. When he was Parliamentary Secretary in charge of Fisheries, the price of fish went out through the roof. When he was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the cost of posting a letter went from three old pennies to six old pennies, in a very short time, and of course it is now 9.6 old pennies to post an ordinary letter. As one of my children remarked to me, she could post ten letters for half a crown when she first went to school but could post only five when she left school. That covered the period during which the Tánaiste was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

We all have great sympathy with the Tánaiste. He worked very hard on the Health Bill during 1969 to 1970. Everybody gave him all the help possible. I agree with Deputy O'Sullivan, there is too much money going on bureaucracy. Everyone listening to me knows what I mean by bureaucracy.

I wish to speak about medical cards in Dublin city and county. I will not delay the House long. It appears that there were different standards in granting these cards. The Tánaiste provided me with the necessary material for my points, which I hope I have recollected accurately. In Dublin county only 8 per cent of the families have medical cards. In Dublin city 12 per cent of the families have medical cards. In Limerick city and county 40 per cent of the families have medical cards. Limerick is one of the wealthiest counties in this country. It forms part of the Golden Vale. Forty per cent of the families there have medical cards. I do not know how the medical card scheme is administered, but it is certainly not administered in Limerick the same way as it is in Dublin. In Cavan 35 per cent of the families have medical cards. I see nothing wrong with that. I know what West Cavan is like, and how hard the people work there to make a living from the land.

What is wrong in Dublin? Some years ago staff officers in the health service, when it was first established, were recruited from the ACC. Was it the training of these men in the ACC which affected the administration of the scheme? These men were badly paid. Is that what made them so meticulous? With the training they got in the ACC they would not lend a shilling to the biggest farmer in the country. That has all changed now. The majority of the staff officers in the health services in Dublin were recruited from the ACC. I presume they have advanced in the ranks.

I heard Deputy O'Connell saying that 50 per cent of the people in Galway have medical cards. When one considers the position of West Galway one cannot see much wrong with that. There is a great difference in the value of money in the city of Dublin and in the country. In the country a family often has an acre on which to grow potatoes. They often have a cow and hens. I know of large families in Crumlin, Dublin, with ten or 12 children and a father earning £20 a week. In The Times of London yesterday it was stated that the cost of food per person per week in England was £2.4. What is the justification for our system of handling medical cards in Dublin? Last year we raised this point but got no answer. Will we get an answer to it this year? The system of administration is outrageous.

I was back in this House for two years before I succeeded in getting a medical card for anybody. The situation is a bit better now. The Eastern Health Board are dealing with this problem. It is a central organisation. The Wicklow people come under the Eastern Health Board. Things appear to be better in the bigger organisation. Extra expenditure has been incurred on the health board but things are better outside Dublin, even if people are paying for the service.

Is there any possibility of a man earning £20 to £25 per week with a family of six or more children paying for medicines or for medical attention? Such a man has no chance whatever of getting a medical card in Dublin city. It could be said that there has been too much emphasis on health in this country over the last 20 years. I have as bad a health record as anybody in this House and have been ill occasionally. It is foolish to be upset about health. There has been altogether too much emphasis on health and it would be much more to the point if the Government attended to housing and children's allowances. There would be less illness in the community if young children were looked after properly instead of being reared in conditions of starvation as at present. If someone becomes ill there is altogether too much argument about the medical card.

The present Government have raised the social welfare contribution greatly. If that money had been put into an insurance scheme for health such a scheme would have been accepted by the ordinary workers. During the 1961 election campaign, on making inquiries in Ringsend, I found that the people would agree to a health system based on insurance. The Fianna Fáil Party pandered to the béal bocht. It is probably too late now to make radical changes. This also applies to what the Government are doing in relation to all expenditure. Since the Tánaiste believes obviously in this expenditure, why does he not attend to the question of medical cards in Dublin? The situation in Dublin is outrageous as compared with the situation in other parts of the country.

In Kilkenny nearly 40 per cent of the people have medical cards. This is absurd. In the city of Dublin there is extreme poverty. Nobody will write about it. The people who have investigated the poverty will not write about it. We have the Economic and Social Research Institute. I do not know what the second half of that title means. Nobody will write about the poverty although they are supposed to do so. No matter where one goes in the present establishment one notices the emphasis on keeping quiet. I see the Tánaiste looking to see how many Deputies are in the Fianna Fáil benches. That does not surprise me. I have said what I wanted to say. I want to make the strongest protest about the manner in which the health services have been operated in relation to medical cards in this city in recent years. As everything the Tánaiste touches costs the earth I hope that a little of the money that he is taking out of the pockets of the people will be used to provide medical cards for the unfortunate workers of this city who have to live on small incomes and whose money is not worth anything like what the same money is worth down the country.

I will not delay the House any longer than is necessary but there are a few points in the Minister's brief I want to refer to. I read recently in one of the newspapers that the Minister, speaking at the Coombe Hospital, stated that the figure for the coming year would be £84.3 million for health expenditure. This is a fantastic increase and it indicates the phenomenon which has occurred in the provision of medical services for the community. One cannot help however but compare this increase with what the general public spend on alcohol. It is estimated that last year something in the region of £110 million was spent on drink. I believe that, from the grassroots to the top, we have our priorities wrong.

Many steps have been taken by the Department of Health and we have heard some Deputies here praise the Minister for the work he has done. I do not come here to praise the Estimate but to criticise it in the most constructive way I can. There are aspects of the Minister's brief which I feel are possibly misleading. In the third paragraph of page 1 the Minister states:

These increases are attributable largely to improved pay and improved conditions of service for staff and the rising costs of drugs, medicines, foodstuffs and so forth.

The rising cost of medicines has not been helped by successive Ministers or by successive Budgets. Turnover tax on two separate occasions has been levied on medicines. This is possibly a budgetary matter, but I feel, since the Minister mentioned this in his brief, I am at liberty to comment on one of the reasons for the rise in the cost of drugs in this country. This is not totally outside the control of the Government. The turnover tax on medicines, as originally imposed and as later increased, is one of the contributory factors for the increase in the cost. It is impossible for the Minister to estimate the amount of money spent by private patients on medicines at local level.

There is great discontent among patients who are not covered for free drugs and they represent 90 per cent of the population. These people have to pay rates but they have little or no provision made for them at general medical services level. Deputy O'Donovan mentioned the increase in postal charges. When a patient is sent into hospital by a general practitioner the consultant sends a report to him and this postage has increased very much over the last few years. This has not helped the situation. I would like to see all forms of health accessories, all medicines and medical instruments exempted from the excessive taxation which the Government impose at least annually, if not bi-annually.

When the Government imposed turnover tax on drugs they exempted medicines for cats, canaries and household pets. It might not mean more than an extra few shillings in the £ every year if it only occurs once or twice in a family but in a chronic illness, which is not covered under the regulations which the Minister made effective from 1st October last, it means a big increase. These regulations give power to health boards to provide free of charge drugs and medicines to people under 16 years of age who are suffering from mental handicap, cystic fibrosis, epilepsy, diabetes, haemophilia, spina bifida, and cerebral palsy. There is no harm in pointing out that when we were asking the Minister to state his bona fides in regard to making medicines available for these categories of people there were many other classifications of patients we wanted included in this.

We appreciate the Minister's response to the numerous representations made by different voluntary boards who have got together to present their case to the Department of Health to provide some form of relief for these illnesses but there are other illnesses which could be included in this. Asthma is one of those. I know there are different types of asthma but certainly bronchogenic asthma should be included in this category. It is a very difficult illness to treat unless one has a free hand as regards the types of medicines used. Medicines which have come out during the past decade for the treatment of asthma are very expensive.

Asthma can be treated very successfully with modern drugs but where a private patient is on the borderline and does not qualify with a health board for the supply of free medicines in a case of bronchogenic asthma, which a patient suffers from for many years, it can impose a heavy cost on the patient. This should certainly be included in the category of diseases for free medicines. The quality of treatment and the quality of therapy that a general practitioner can give to a person suffering from the specific type of asthma I mentioned would greatly improve the patient's health and could restore him as close to normal as possible with the present compounds that are available, but they are so expensive that they are outside most people's pocket at the moment.

There is another disease which should be included here—I know it is a wide type of definition as regards disease—and that is arthritis. I do not mean lumbago or other such aches or pains, but osteo-arthritis or rheumatoid-arthritis where there is a specific disease diagnosed and where the general practitioner has to certify that the patient is suffering from this. If osteo-arthritis and rheumatoid-arthritis were included it could cover the vast number of those who do need the most expensive medicines, particular gold injections, cortisone treatments and so on which are given for these diseases.

There is another disease which one comes across every day, that is blood pressure or hypertension. This is a disease which can require very prolonged treatment. We have seen some excellent programmes on television which have come into the country from abroad indicating how chronic this disease can be, the effect it can have upon the patient, upon his family life, upon his performance at work and on everything he does. Yet this is a disease 70 per cent of the cause of which is never found, but one of the remarkable things about that disease is that the treatment, which is long-term treatment, can produce all the symptoms which result from the disease hypertension. Here again at general practitioner level we are not going to disguise the fact that people are not wealthy. They are not well off and you cannot prescribe the up-to-date medicines for a hypertensive person when you know that the very cost of the medicine will result in his getting upset and raising his blood pressure. Even though there is some provision whereby he can bring his prescription to the health board and get a month's supply until his case is investigated, there is far too much inquiry into cases like this. Due to the way in which the cost of living has increased nearly every second patient goes to James's Street to try to get his medicines free.

The fourth type of disease which I think should be included is chronic bronchitis and emphysema. In the city of Dublin there is smoke pollution which is twice that of London city. This is one of the factors in chronic bronchitis. Due to our failures as administrators and legislators we have allowed that to happen. A person might have a job in a mine or in industry which is not helping the respiratory system. Our damp climate, particularly for six months of the year, is also a factor. The first thing one is taught in medical school is to tell anyone who has chronic bronchitis to go to the Meditteranean. People cannot afford that, but there are many medicines which can give relief to a chronic bronchitic for the winter months. While once again there may be provision whereby a chronic bronchitic can get a week-to-week or month-to-month supply of drugs, I think that should be dispensed with and that such a person should be included among those entitled to free medicine.

Another disease which should be included is angina. Any person who has a coronary attack as a result of which he requires treatment for the rest of his life should get the benefit of this provision. In fact, any disease which lasts or is likely to last longer than three to five years should be automatically included. One thing I am pleased to see in this connection is that there is no means test in connection with these diseases, but the application form which a person has to fill in when he is applying for free drugs or a medical card contains many questions of a personal nature: his weekly wage or other income, overtime, bonus or other allowances; what the rent is, what the mortgage payments are, ground rent, rates, rateable valuation and special circumstances, if any. Then after that his house is inspected and possibly, if his furniture is good and shiny, if there is a television set, a telephone and so on, his application may be refused.

I have replies back from the Eastern Health Board indicating the number of people being refused or possibly having difficulty in obtaining the evidence necessary to give to the Eastern Health Board. There is a great deal of bureaucracy involved. The applicant has to go to his employer or to the secretary of the company for which he is working, get an income tax certificate, details of what he has earned for the year and so on. This can be embarrassing for certain people and they may not like to do it. It is time we got away from counting the chickens in the farmyard and having a look at the furniture in the house and made a reasonable provision in respect of those suffering from chronic illnesses.

May I point out, without being too severely critical of the Minister, that under his Ministry, for the first time as far as I can remember in any country in the world there has been a strike of junior hospital doctors here. Nurses have paraded in their uniforms and carried banners outside Dáil Éireann, certainly not what their parents intended them to do when they started them off in nursing, or when they entered that great vocation. There was a threatened strike of dispensary doctors about two years ago so that they could have a day-and-a-half off a week. We have had the tragic strike of the psychiatric nurses, something everybody was bewildered about. Nobody could understand how it could have been allowed to go to such an extent. I was not surprised that it was allowed to boil over, that once again the Minister was trying to capitalise on the nature, the vocation, of the psychiatric nurses. It had happened before in regard to the junior hospital doctors who found they could not live on the salaries they were getting for the hours they worked. The psychiatric nurses found themselves in difficulties with the cost of uniforms and the cost of meals going up. Earlier the dispensary doctors had the same experience. All of these strikes came right up to the full bluff point but the psychiatric nurses' strike was the one that exploded. Many of us know of the tragedies that resulted from that strike in certain parts of the country. We have had the dentists' dispute.

That is not a great record. I am not criticising the Minister as a person, though I shall have plenty of criticisms to offer later. I am criticising his general administration. No other country in the world has had that record in the two and a half years the Minister has been in that office.

The dentists, from a poll of 64 per cent, have voted 84 per cent in favour of the new proposals. I am glad to hear it and I hope they abide by that decision. It is good to think that the dental services will be back in action. However, a point that is often made, and there is great validity in it, is that once you cross the Border you can notice the difference in dental hygiene as between residents in the North and the South. The services here are very poor. Only the mother who has a medical card and who is pregnant is entitled to dental treatment in the local dispensary area. Only the man who pays his insurance stamps is entitled to dental treatment with a private practitioner. Where does the mother go in regard to her children? Where does the man go who has not got a medical card? For the adults, they can go to the Dental Hospital which has, as we know, quite a large number of people on its waiting list which closed in June 1970. The Minister told us that the reason for this was that the number of persons awaiting this service was beyond the ability of the hospital to deal with. He said the matter was plainly one for the Eastern Health Board. That may be so, but if the Minister is subsidising the Eastern Health Board to the extent he says he is, it is also a matter for the Minister. If our party were in office I would not expect Deputy R. Barry to make such an observation or to try to pass the buck in that way. I am surprised at the Minister in this respect.

For instance, I asked a question about somebody who could not get treatment for a particular illness. I was told to go to the Eastern Health Board. Practically every question asked of the Minister is referred to that board. One of the few democratic rights we have in the House is the Parliamentary question.

Three of the previous five speakers dealt with particular matters about which I have a certain amount of knowledge. I do not say I have the same knowledge as the Minister has. Let us consider what Deputy Mrs. Burke said regarding the hospital in her constituency. It is a short distance from where I was reared in north Longford. I very often travel there and I know the difficulties and the feelings of apprehension at the down-grading of that hospital. It ill becomes any Minister to say it will not be down-graded in the way Deputy Mrs. Burke stated. In this respect I would urge the Minister to reconsider parts of the FitzGerald Report, written by a committee chaired by Professor Paddy FitzGerald. It is a good document but since its issue we have had the results of a census. The report was based on the old census but left a certain amount of leeway for changes in the population. I do not think it covered fully the changes revealed in the new census. Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned a hospital in Kerry.

In the Kenmare River area, the area in which I first practised.

On the south side of Bantry Bay in the town of Bantry.

There is no doubt this hospital provided services second to none. I do not wish to intrude on the South Western Health Board but from my experience there in 1968 I fully appreciate the services that were available in that hospital. I should not like to think of practising in that area if the facilities provided by that hospital were taken away. One must have regard to the feelings of the people there among other things.

Deputy Timmons gave interesting facts about the relative poverty of the hospital services in the north side of Dublin. I am sorry he is not here to hear the figures I am about to give. The total number of hospitals in the Greater Dublin area is 72 institutions of one kind or another, including convalescent homes, children's hospitals and other places where institutional care is provided. Of these, 54 are south and 18 north of the Liffey. The adult population is 169,000 people on the north side of the Liffey and 157,000 south of the Liffey. On the north side there are six general hospitals, compared to 24 on the south side. On the north side there is the Rotunda Hospital which is the only maternity hospital on that side as compared with five maternity hospitals on the south side.

On the south side there is St. James's Hospital, which has a large maternity unit; there is the new Coombe Hospital which was built at a reasonable price. This is an excellent job and, in addition, recreational facilities for the nurses' home and the doctors' home are provided. However, it is overcrowded now; one of the reasons is that the number of maternity beds available on the north side is 134. This results in a massive overflow to the south side. The third hospital is the National Maternity Hospital at Holles Street. It is not unusual to hear complaints from husbands that their wives are left lying in corridors. I can remember one case where a patient was taken in at 10 o'clock; a D and C was performed and the patient was wheeled out to a car. The patient could not be kept in the hospital because of lack of accommodation. This happened in 1965 and the patient was allowed to go home after what might be considered a minor operation. In any operation involving the use of a general anaesthetic the patient should have expert supervision for more than one hour afterwards.

Another hospital is St. Michael's at Dún Laoghaire and this provides a good maternity service. This place is regarded as the "in" place to go. The fifth hospital, Mount Carmel, has adequate provision for maternity cases. On the north side there are 134 maternity beds catering for 169,000 adults whereas on the south side there are 442 maternity beds catering for 157,000 adults.

This leads to a situation where Dr. Clinch, Master of the Coombe Hospital, says that they need prefabs. I would appeal to all involved in the matter not to be too parochial in their attitude but to have regard to the way the city is expanding. Regardless of what the FitzGerald Report says there appears to be a definite need for a new maternity complex on the north side which would eliminate the overloading of hospitals on the south side. If we could have a maternity hospital with 130 to 140 beds on the north side considerable progress would be made towards providing maternity beds for those in need of hospital delivery. The question arises: how are we going to get this and how can we afford to pay the cost?

What about using a chunk of Blanchardstown?

There are people who consider that part of Blanchardstown would be suitable for a maternity unit and I do not deny that. However, I would point out the distance a patient from Finglas, Ballymun, Coolock, Kilbarrack or Sutton, would have to travel would be very great. It would be most inconvenient for those people who might only have to have a urine test carried out or an ante-natal examination carried out. Such a scheme might work later on when Blanchardstown is extended but at present the distance is too far for those who live in other areas. Although the distance in miles as the crow flies might not be very great, the amount of time spent in travelling by bus would be considerable. In addition, it would not be desirable for a pregnant woman to have to travel such a distance.

I will make a suggestion to the Minister. There is at Old Cabra Cross a large site which was purchased in 1957 under a compulsory purchase order by the then Minister for Health. It was intended for the erection of the St. Laurence Hospital which did not materialise. We will not go into the history of what happened to the board. One of the most expensive aspects of building in Dublin is the cost of land but here there is a large acreage which was purchased as suitable for the building of a hospital. There has been a certain amount of capital investment in that land and a considerable amount of work and effort was put into the planning of the hospital.

The new Coombe Hospital which was built some years ago was badly needed and it has provided benefits for the people on the south side. The plans drawn up by Mr. Kennedy, the design of that hospital and the facilities provided by that hospital and its outer buildings could be used on the site at Old Cabra Road. In this way the Minister will be able to provide at a minimal cost to his Department, to the ratepayers and taxpayers, a fully modernised maternity unit, a gynaecological unit, peri-natal and neo-natal care units. The Minister will be able to eliminate architects' fees because plans are available and the land is already available. All that is needed is to get the builders who did the other job to submit an estimate and then erect the hospital. It is an excellent situation, it is accessible to all parts of the north and north-west, 700 new houses are being erected nearby and 1,000 houses are being constructed a further distance away. When Blanchardstown expands there will be plenty of room there to provide maternity accommodation for the 100,000 people.

We know that the Rotunda Hospital is in disrepair. I do not know the exact date on which the Minister told me that the number of beds decreased by 28 because of the fact that repairs were being carried out to the roof. There is provision to provide 28 or 30 beds in the Drumcondra Hospital when the legal procedures are settled. I would ask the Minister to provide the extra ante-natal care unit and extra maternity beds at Drumcondra but even if he does that it will still not solve the problem and a new complex of hospital beds on the north side will still be badly needed. I know that senior consultants have been thinking of opening a unit in the Blanchardstown area but, with all humility, I do not think patients will travel that distance for ante-natal care which is a vital factor in keeping maternity deaths and morbidity at a minimum. The patient-lapse in ante-natal care would increase if patients had to go to Blanchardstown. It is not unusual—I am speaking for mothers on the north side—that they have to book in at the Rotunda Hospital very early, practically before you can tell whether they are expecting a baby or not, because the hospital is so crowded. There is an increase in domiciliary deliveries by the Rotunda unit because there are not sufficient beds available. One must give credit to the units doing this work and especially to the nurses who are up at night for this purpose.

I put this proposal to the Minister and I sincerely hope in the interests of all the people of Dublin he will seriously consider the utilisation of the site, the utilisation of the new Coombe Hospital plans and possibly the builder —I do not know who he was—to get that project started as soon as possible. It will solve the problem. If he does not do it now, he may have to do it very soon. Make-shift and patchwork arrangements will not be sufficient to cope with the population explosion we are now having on the north side and also on the south side.

In regard to the hospitals available in Dublin, and going back to facilities for children in Dublin city, we are evolving towards catchment-type areas and we find again this tremendous imbalance. There are three childrens' hospitals on the south side and only one on the north side, where you have Temple Street Children's Hospital, run by the Irish Sisters of Charity who do absolutely wonderful work there. On the south side you have our Lady's Hospital, Crumlin, Harcourt Street Children's Hospital and St. Ultan's Children's Hospital. If you take in the paediatric or children's beds available in the general hospitals such as Jervis Street, the Richmond and the Mater, all of which will have a certain number available, together with the other hospitals you find there are 50 per cent more beds on the south side than on the north side. There were 695 beds available on 27th April, 1971, for children on the north side and practically 1,000—966—available on the south side.

I have made pleas to different Ministers in regard to the big discrepancy in all facilities on the north side of the city. Obviously, over the years there has been top-heavy development on the south side which was regarded as the place to live or build a hospital or whatever it was. Since Lord Oxman and the gentry who were with him in Old Oxmanstown, and the Duke of Leinster, moved over here, it seems that nobody thought of the north side of the city. So we have five centres of higher education on the south side and one on the north side and so on. I shall not go into that but merely point to it to demonstrate the lopsided development of hospital services that we have.

In regard to fever hospitals, not only is there a decrease in the number of beds available this year compared with last year, not only have we had a succession of Parliamentary questions answered showing that wards are closed due to lack of nurses or because of decoration or because of preparation for a special type of unit or something like that, but the point is that in the city itself a vast number of children and the largest families have gone out to Finglas, Ballymun, Coolock, Kilbarrack and Donaghmede. Some time ago, before the water supply was connected in the Coolock area we experienced an outbreak of scabies, a contageous disease, because there was no water available or there was not a liberal supply of water. The same thing happened in Cabra because of the height. We know the mechanics of water pressure. We had boilers bursting and there was insufficient water simply because of the height.

It is all right to say that in a rural area, where I was brought up, you had to go to the well for water but when one is accustomed to something and has never experienced anything but a constant flow of water then, when it is cut off or interrupted for hours in the day it is not easy for one to adapt. Thank God in all parts of my constituency, following the co-operation I got and for which I am very grateful, there is plenty of water. We are very grateful to the Department and the corporation for their co-operation in providing an adequate water supply. We did have epidemics of scabies and so on and these have not yet abated to any great extent.

I think there should be a fever hospital on the north side of the city. Even though fever hospitalisation is provided completely free of charge under the Infectious Diseases Act the cost of going to see a baby through the glass wall—and for a young mother that can be a very trying experience— can also be very expensive because of travelling to and fro. There is not much justification for having the two fever hospitals on the south side. Very often children who suffer from the routine fevers, measles, scarlet fever, virus infections, chickenpox and so on, come from large families and those hospitalised are possibly hospitalised very often. It is not so unusual to see a child in hospital on a regular basis. Inaccessibility of the hospital to the parents can result in their not being properly briefed by the hospital as to the proper precautions to take. The next time the general practitioner sees them is when the child is down with the infection again. Without harping on the lopsided hospital facilities available I should like to point out we have over 70 hospitals in the greater Dublin area, 18 of them north of the Liffey and 54 south of the river.

The Minister said that the increases in the Health Estimate are attributable largely to improved pay and conditions of service for staff and the rise in costs, et cetera. I am not, and do not pretend to be, an economist and I know very little about the subject, but I imagine that if you have 72 institutions you will start off by having a secretary for each hospital institution. In some of the bigger ones there will probably be a panel of secretaries for the secretary and maybe some sub-secretaries for the assistant secretary. There would also be a matron, an assistant matron, staff nurses and others down the line. There would be a head of catering, a head porter, telephonists and many others. Special notepaper would have to be printed. There would also have to be the special charts that hospitals must have. Some form of rationalisation is taking place with the Federated Dublin Voluntary Hospitals but what amazes me is the number of hospital institutions that are doing the same kind of work. In general practice one often has to telephone the bed bureau when it is necessary to have a patient removed to hospital. The bed bureau then try to find a bed for the patient. There are approximately 30 specialised hospitals in this city. These include maternity, fever and the general hospitals.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

One of the points I was trying to make was that with the 72 hospital institutions that there now are in the Dublin area, obviously, the cost of maintaining staff will be very high. The Minister pointed out recently that we have a very high bed ratio per head of the population but at the same time these hospital beds are not all in what one might refer to as economically viable institutions. I would say there is overloading in so far as administrative personnel in the Dublin area are concerned. Generally speaking, the health services of the country are top heavy. Apart from the medical side there must be administrative and maintenance staff and when there are more than 70 institutions involved, the wage and salary bill for these staffs will be very high.

The Labour Party have deserted the House. They have no interest in the health of the people.

I would say that in certain cases the number of staff in some of these institutions is greater than is necessary. We know that many consultants travel from one hospital to another in the city and even outside it. Their appointments are duplicated in so far as they have visiting appointments to different hospitals throughout the city.

In the field of orthopaedics one might find a specialist with appointments at the Mater, Temple Street, Cappagh, Baldoyle and other hospitals. Some of the recommendations of the FitzGerald Report would be welcomed by economists. I do not wish to mention any hospital units in particular as not being viable economically but there are very many small hospitals and institutions.

Another point I would like to make concerns the conditions of service of the staffs of hospitals. I do not think a lot has been done in this regard. Therefore, I would not regard the reference in the Minister's speech to the conditions of staff as being valid. I have not noticed much improvement in the conditions of service of the staffs apart from the introduction of shorter working hours. The conditions under which some junior doctors had to live were deplorable. The recreational facilities did not extend beyond the table tennis table. The improved pay will enable junior hospital doctors to pursue higher studies. This is something we welcome.

One of the big defects in the general medical services is the duplication of drugs and the number of different brands of a preparation available. Tetracycles are supplied under different brands names. A committee should be set up to investigate the establishment of a national drug industry. As it is, we have little or no control over the cost of medicines. It should be possible to provide 20 essential compounds for general medical practice and hospital use. The duplication and the massive advertising indicate the profitability there is in this drug industry. Certain firms pay back a certain percentage of their profits to the Government but this, in itself, is not right. It is not right that the patient should be taxed, having had to pay his rates, his income tax and possibly voluntary health insurance. There is a double turnover tax on medicines, imposed by successive Fianna Fáil Governments. Rationalisation of the drug industry and the pharmaceutical industry is very desirable in a small country like ours. It should be quite a simple exercise. Incentives could be offered to existing pharmaceutical companies to help them to export. We should not spend the amount we do importing medicines from Germany, Holland, France, the United States of America and Britain. We are not justified in doing that. It should be possible to establish our own manufacturing industry which would distribute 20 or 30 of the most widely used essential medical compounds.

On 1st April there will be a change-over in the Eastern Health Board region to the choice of doctor system. If the two tier system is abolished there will be a massive increase in the cost of medicines. It is a fact that these have increased only once since 1947. That was an increase of some 25 per cent. A certain part of the fees paid by the health boards will be paid back by way of tax. I do not think the profession can complain. If the boards go broke the Minister will have to find the money somewhere. There is a guaranteed 16s; possibly 8s of that will go back by way of tax. I am sure allowance was made for that in the calculations.

The medical card will not disappear under the choice of doctor scheme. We will still have to forward them to the local authority. There should be a flat rate. If the scheme is estimated to cost £500,000 to £600,000 for one-third of the population, roughly 800,000 people, in the first year and since most of the capital equipment has already been provided by way of large dispensaries and surgeries the actual cost of providing a choice of doctor service on a fee per item basis would not seem to be a massive sum. The estimated total cost is 3 to 4 per cent of the £84.3 million the Minister mentioned. I think the ceiling should be raised from £1,600 to £2,000 per year. In 1961 we adumbrated the free choice of doctor scheme in our policy document and we are glad that a year ago the Minister adverted to that; we were the first to put it down in black and white.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 15th March, 1972.
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