It is proposed to take Business in the following order: Nos. 1, 3 and 21. Questions will be taken from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.
Order of Business.
I wish to ask the Taoiseach if his attention has been drawn to the remark with which the Minister for Justice opened his reply to the Question on the Adjournment last night, in which he appeared to reflect on the loyalty to this State and its forces of order of Deputy Fox as a member of the Protestant community and to subsequent remarks by the Minister for Transport and Power during which he was heard to call Deputy Fox a B Special. Will the Taoiseach ask the two Ministers in question of withdraw their remarks especially in view of the most unfortunate impression which such behaviour must make at the present time?
I read in the newspapers the remark of the Minister for Justice in reply to the debate in which he said he was glad that a conversion would take place, especially in the case of Deputy Fox. If Deputy Fox read an implication into that I did not see it. It is a matter for Deputy Fox and his associates. I did not see any reason for the uproar that was caused by these remarks and especially I did not see any reason for the remark of one of the Fine Gael Deputies in calling the Minister a sectarian scut.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
If there was an inference drawn from the Minister's remarks it is a matter entirely for the other side of the House.
(Cavan): Might I point out to the Taoiseach that during the last general election, in County Monaghan, there was a campaign of vilification adopted against Deputy Fox on the basis that he was a B Special and that that remark was repeated in this House by one of the Taoiseach's former Ministers, Mr. Kevin Boland, and that Mr. Boland, as the man that he is, withdrew that remark. In that context the remarks of the Minister for Justice last night—he is normally a man for whom I have respect— were read by everybody in the House and outside it as a repetition of this vilification against one of the 5 per cent in this country, and common decency demands that they be withdrawn?
I will not act as Ceann Comhairle and judge of this House. Remarks are thrown across the floor of the House very frequently and people take exception to them on one side or the other. It depends on which side one is whether exception is taken to them or not.
(Cavan): Will the Taoiseach grow up?
You would condone murder if it suited you.
Is that remark in order?
(Interruptions.)
Order.
I am not as sensitive as those on the other side of the House. I do not worry about some of the remarks thrown at me from that side of the House, more especially from Deputy L'Estrange.
You would condone murder.
If there is a ruling on the implication of the remarks made by the Minister for Justice last night it is a matter for the man whom we elected to do that job to make that ruling.
Firstly, the Taoiseach is responsible for the behaviour of members of his Government. Secondly, the Minister was asked to clarify his remark as to whether he meant what it was thought he meant and he refused to do so, thereby confirming the implication. Thirdly, this was further confirmed by the Minister for Transport and Power, referring to Deputy Fox again as a B. Special. In these circumstances can we ask if the Taoiseach has any responsibility for the behaviour of his Government?
If there was anything of a sectarian nature in the remarks of the Minister for Justice I will ask him here and now to withdraw any sectarian implications in so far as his remarks were so interpreted by the people opposite. He will do that.
I just want to make my position very clear. I endeavoured to reply last night to the debate on the Adjournment. I did not succeed. Indeed, I succeeded in uttering one sentence and although I remained on my feet for seven minutes after that I was unable to make any further contribution to the debate, notwithstanding your best efforts and my best efforts to do so.
The sentence with which I opened what were meant to be my remarks was apparently taken up by Fine Gael Deputies as meaning something which I certainly did not intend it to mean. I made no reference, either express or implied, to Deputy Fox's religion. It has been alleged this morning by Deputy FitzGerald that in addition I made some implication about his loyalty to the forces of this State. Certainly what I said did not do that either. If I expressly or by implication made any derogatory comment whatever on Deputy Fox's religion or his loyalty to the forces of the State I would immediately and without reservation withdraw any such remark or any such implication. There was no such remark and there was no such implication. Therefore, I cannot in all honesty withdraw what I did not say or what I did not do. I have no wish whatever, I had not last night and I have not now, and I never had and never will have, to reflect in any way on anybody's religion. I did not do it and, therefore, I cannot withdraw it.
(Cavan): Before the Minister for Justice stood up, I was about to say that if he gave an unqualified withdrawal of the implication last night I would withdraw my remark about him.
We cannot barter this kind of thing.
We are not in the kindergarten here.
You have nothing to barter. We know what you did to the Protestants in the early days of this State when you burned them out and murdered them.
(Interruptions.)
We cannot have a debate on this matter.
I will not accept anything from the corner where Deputy L'Estrange sits.
We know what you did in the past.
Order.
(Cavan): Unfortunately, I do not believe that the Minister for Justice made the remark he made last night of his own initiative. He was prompted and I am sorry for him. He has not given an unqualified withdrawal and I must let my remark stand on the record.
I am calling item No. 1.
(Interruptions.)
We cannot have a debate on this. There is nothing before the House.
Arising out of the Taoiseach's request to the Minister for Justice, I would ask the Taoiseach to make a similar request to the Minister for Transport and Power to withdraw the allegation that Deputy Fox is a B. Special. The Minister has not denied he made it.
I do not accept what Deputy Fitzpatrick says.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Lenihan, the Minister for Transport and Power, said that Deputy Fox was a B. Special.
That is untrue. It is totally untrue.
Let him speak.
Order.
Whether Deputy Andrews says it is untrue or not, we are not prepared to accept it. I distinctly heard the Minister say this.
(Interruptions.)
I thought I heard him say it.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
I am not in the habit of listening to imaginary remarks from the Minister for Transport and Power. I distinctly heard him say it and he should be manly enough now to withdraw it. I feel, as a person who is trying to cool this situation on a national level, that remarks such as those of the Minister for Transport and Power and the inference by the Minister for Justice last night are doing a terrible amount of damage.
We cannot have a debate on this. I allowed the Deputy to make a statement. I am calling item No. 1, Wireless Telegraphy Bill.
Before you move any further, there is something I want to discuss with you in your office which might not be so very pleasant either. I believe that the Taoiseach should be requested to ask the Minister for Transport and Power to withdraw his obnoxious remark.
(Interruptions.)
I read reports of this incident in the papers. I saw no reference whatever to the remarks alleged against the Minister for Transport and Power.
(Interruptions.)
The papers referred to this this morning if the Taoiseach read them properly. Has the Taoiseach asked the Minister for Transport and Power——
(Interruptions.)
We cannot have a discussion on this. The Deputy is being disorderly.
Could I ask, through you, Sir, whether the Taoiseach has asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he made that remark or not? He has not denied it.
I will say that Deputy FitzGerald comes in here like a schoolmaster trying to lecture to all of us. I am not going to accept Deputy FitzGerald's role as Leader of the Opposition, as Ceann Comhairle and everything else.
(Interruptions.)
Did you, who are Head of the Government, ask him if he made this remark?
(Interruptions.)
Order.
Go back to Athlone.
If you have any doubt, ask him.
(Interruptions.)
I will not try to talk until you shut up.
(Interruptions.)
What I am going to say is not to the House; it is to you, Sir. You are Ceann Comhairle. It is in your hands that the order of the House rests. If you make a request to any Deputy on this side of the House, then, Sir, it is a matter for you to make it and for the Deputy to comply with it. If you make such a request, I will ask any Deputy on this side of the House to comply with it. If you can endorse what was said on that side of the House, then I am sure the Minister for Transport and Power will do his duty by you.
As I said last night and I say it again this morning, I did not hear the Minister for Transport and Power make any such statement.
(Interruptions.)
I should like to advert to the fact that the pointed refusal of the Minister for Transport and Power to deny this allegation shows that it is true and you should act accordingly and so should the Taoiseach.
I am calling item No. 1, Wireless Telegraphy Bill.
(Cavan): On the Order of Business and on a totally different matter——
I want to know what the Minister for Transport and Power means when he said: "Do not try those tactics down here?" I want you either to withdraw the statement——
Will the Deputy address his remarks to the Chair?
(Interruptions.)
The Minister for Transport and Power has just asked me to address my remarks to you.
I want to address a remark to Deputy Fox to please resume his seat.
(Interruptions.)
The Deputy is inviting the Chair to have him sent out. I have no wish to send Deputy Fox out so early in the morning.
That is quite unfair.
It is not unfair.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, when a Deputy seeks your protection is it in order for you to reflect on the Deputy in such a way that you imply he wants to be thrown out? I think it is not becoming of the Ceann Comhairle to say this.
He was out of order in raising the matter in this way.
He was not and you are not manly enough to admit it.
I came here on the votes of the Monaghan people. I was not returned unopposed.
We went into this last night. We cannot have it all over again.
We will have it all over until you clarify this position.
(Interruptions.)
Shout the minority down.
The Deputy merely wants to be suspended as he was last December. I have no wish to suspend him again in such a short period.
(Interruptions.)
When a Deputy demands fair play and justice, if your authority makes you criticise him as wanting suspension it is a sad reflection on the National Parliament of Ireland.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
That is a disgraceful statement and you should be ashamed of yourself on behalf of the minority.
(Interruptions.)
Will Deputy Fox please resume his seat?
I think this is a sad reflection on this House and the country as we find it today. Can I appeal to the Taoiseach, to Deputy Liam Cosgrave and to the Labour people in heaven's name, to stop it? We will all say we will get on with the nation's business, which is very important.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
You were not called a B. Special.
I am calling item No. 1.
Soft talk is no use at this stage. I propose to make this statement and put it on the record of the House.
The Deputy made a statement.
Last night in this House I was grievously slandered by two Ministers——
Will the Deputy please resume his seat?
The Minister for Justice implied that my previous action had been anti-national and he was followed by the Minister for Transport and Power who called me a B. Special.
Would Deputy Fox please resume his seat?
I come from the North of Ireland and I know what this means.
(Interruptions.)
I want to protest in the strongest possible fashion.
(Interruptions.)
In view of the present delicate situation in this country, I want to protest in the strongest possible way at the outrageous outbursts of sectarian bigotry by two members of the Government and to point out to the Taoiseach how hollow and false they make his protestations that he wants a united Ireland in which there is to be room for all classes and creeds.
They should not be making those insinuations.
(Interruptions.)
It is typical of the Taoiseach.
Would the Deputy allow me one minute?
(Interruptions.)
Business is suspended until 11.20 a.m.
Business suspended at 10.50 a.m. and resumed at 11.20 a.m.
Item No. 1.
Before business was suspended——
Will the Deputy resume his seat and allow business to proceed?
On a point of order, the Minister for Transport and Power will have something to say right away if he is permitted.
In order to enable the important business of this House to proceed, in particular with regard to the EEC debate, I wish to say that last night I made a remark in response to a remark made from the Fine Gael benches calling the Minister for Justice "a sectarian scut". In response to that, and in the heat of the moment, I called Deputy Fox "a B Special Republican". In so far as that remark was said I withdraw it. It was said in the heat of the moment and in response to the remark made by Deputy Fitzpatrick to the Minister for Justice.
I accept that.
On the Order of Business——
(Cavan): Arising out of what the Minister for Transport and Power has said——
We cannot have a discussion on this matter again. The matter has been concluded.
The Deputy wishes to make a personal explanation.
I will allow Deputy Fitzpatrick to make a short statement if he wishes at this stage but that will conclude the matter.
(Cavan): Arising out of what the Minister for Transport and Power has said, I candidly admit that I called the Minister for Justice “a sectarian scut” last night. I did so in absolute indignation because of what the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Transport and Power had said. I was absolutely appalled at the attack that was made on one of the 5 per cent minority in this House——
(Interruptions.)
(Cavan): In so far as the Minister for Transport and Power has explained his position, I wish to explain mine.
Any withdrawal?
Is the Deputy prepared to withdraw his allegation against the Minister for Justice?
(Cavan): I have explained my position. I withdraw it in the same manner as the Minister for Transport and Power withdrew his remark.
Deputy Corish on the Order of Business.
It was a pity we did not have these withdrawals an hour earlier; we could have used the time more profitably. On the Order of Business, as far as I am aware it was agreed last night with the deputy Whip of my party and the Whips of the other parties that Questions would be taken between 1 p.m. and 2.45 p.m. I discover now that on the Order of Business as announced by the Taoiseach, Questions will be limited to one hour, from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. I should like an explanation about this matter.
My Whip's office got in touch with me this morning and I was told that the Order of Business as I announced it was agreed this morning following consultation. I am not sure to what extent there was consultation but I usually accept the messages I receive. The fact remains that I believe an Order will be made for the winding up of the debate which apparently would not permit Questions to continue until 2.45 p.m.
I think our deputy Whip has been treated shabbily because he says he was not consulted on this matter. Could the Parliamentary Secretary give us an explanation?
I do not have an explanation but I could discuss the matter privately with Deputy Kavanagh. I think the fault is on my part rather than with Deputy Kavanagh. I accept that the matter may have been done rather precipitately but the Deputy might discuss the matter with me privately. As I have said, the fault is on my side rather than with Deputy Kavanagh.
Perhaps the House could sit until 6 p.m.?
I agree with that suggestion to sit until 6 p.m. That would allow one and a half hours for Questions and those that have not been answered could be circulated as written replies.
Will Questions be from 2.15 p.m. to 3.45 p.m.?
Questions will be from 1 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.
Would it not be preferable to have Questions from 2.15 p.m. to 3.45 p.m. immediately before the closing speeches rather than interrupt the debate?
I think it should be left as announced by the Taoiseach.
And we finish at 5 p.m.?
Yes.
Does that mean that it is agreed that Questions will be for one hour?
I agreed to a request by the Labour Party because of the misunderstanding, but now the Labour Party inform me they are quite happy with the Order of Business as I announced it this morning.
On a point of order, as it appears that everything has been satisfactorily sorted out, may I ask the Minister for Justice to circulate the reply he was supposed to give to my Private Notice Question?
The Deputy will have to come again for that one.
(Cavan): On the Order of Business and subject to the approval of the Chair, yesterday I sought permission to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of Question No. 8 on yesterday's Order Paper but I was ruled out of order. Possibly the Chair did not appreciate the basis on which I sought to raise the question.
I understand I was ruled out of order on the basis that the Minister for Transport and Power is not responsible for the utterances of Mr. Evans, a member of Bord Fáilte, in his private capacity. That was not the basis on which I sought to raise the question on the Adjournment. I sought to raise the matter on the basis that Mr. Evans, in view of what he said publicly, is not a fit person to be a member of Bord Fáilte and I would ask the Chair to reconsider the matter.
I will have another look at the question and I will communicate with Deputy Fitzpatrick.