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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Jul 1972

Vol. 262 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48: Health (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £58,028,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1973, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Ard-Chláraitheora), and certain services administered by that Office, including grants to Health Boards, miscellaneous grants and certain grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Health.)

We had a very interesting, prolonged debate on the health and hospital services in which a great deal of the comment was constructive and some of the criticism was quite fair in that there is no Minister for Health I know of who could make the progress he would like to make at the speed which would satisfy either his own ideas or those in the Parliament where he sits.

I notice that there was no speaker in the debate who in any way criticised the abbreviated statement of health and hospital policy which I put in at the very end of my Estimates speech. I think this is the first time that I know of for a number of years where a general statement of policy was made indicating the priorities and there was no general criticism or even no detailed criticism of what constituted the national health policy as devised by me as Minister for Health for the time being and as approved in the Oireachtas as a result of Health Estimates being passed during the last two years. I was glad that no one, therefore, challenged the general type of policy which should be developed.

I would have hoped that more Deputies would have spoken about the development of community services and would have, perhaps, by their speeches advertised the necessity for encouraging voluntary organisations throughout the country to come together, not to lose their identity, but to work together as participants in social service councils with a view to collaboration with the statutory authorities and the health boards, in respect of the ways by means of which people can be kept out of hospital, and people in distress of any kind assisted. Whether the reason for failure to comment on this was that the Deputies feel that in my Department we are doing our best to encourage the social service councils, or whether their interest has not been sufficiently aroused, would be difficult for me to know.

It is true that the social workers in my Department have helped to establish no less than 16 social service councils in the course of the last two years. More councils are in progress of formation. We now have a national council for social services on which there are experts of every kind. The council will give me advice on the development of community services and on matters that arise in connection with the formation, growth and pursuit of social service councils.

I want to say that we have a very long way to go in this regard. The domiciliary services which were referred to by a number of Deputies cannot be fully implemented without a great deal of voluntary help and through the work of voluntary organisations supported by voluntary funds, in addition to the funds donated by the health boards. Above all, a type of organisation which permits the appointment of more social workers in every social service area is needed, not only because of the valuable service they provide but also so that they can help to train voluntary workers to look after those in distress.

This also relates to the provision of youth services and to the very great importance of providing community centres and recreational facilities for youth. These matters are not my responsibility. They relate to the work of the Minister for Local Government and also, ultimately, to the development of more cultural facilities and adult educational facilities in every area. The social service councils can promote these activities in conjunction with the local authorities and with all those working in these fields.

I will deal now with the financial question, which arose. I am quite aware that the health services impose a very heavy burden on the ratepayers and the taxpayers. This is found in every country in the world. It is true to say that the richer the country the heavier the burdens of health and hospital costs seems to appear. I foresee that the costs here will increase still more. I foresee an increase in the cost of providing hospital services over the next ten years as techniques become more expensive and specialisation grows, and more and more people are saved from death and brought back to health through advanced techniques. The hospital services will become more expensive and involve us in considerable financial difficulties.

If one examines the position in a country like Sweden, the second richest country in the world, one will find that the Minister for Health there stated that he did not know how he was going to find the finance for the kind of health services which were being sought by the Swedish people. Sweden is a country where a married man with £3,000 per annum and two children pays £1,300 income tax. It is no use for Deputies to get up and make the bald statement that the health charges should be removed from the rates. This would involve the transfer of £35 million in the present year from the rates to the Exchequer. It would impose impossible problems on the Minister for Finance and on the Members of this House if such action was taken.

The following increases in taxation would produce approximately £35 million:

A 7p increase in the standard rate of income tax, or

A 17½p increase on 1 gallon of petrol, or

A 23p increase in the price of a packet of 20 cigarettes.

I do not think that such a transfer of taxation on property to taxation on incomes or expenditure is really feasible. We have limited the increase on the rates this year to 30p in the £ and we will continue, so far as possible, to give this kind of assistance in future.

Deputies have made various suggestions for some new kind of insurance scheme. I regard myself as looking pragmatically on all proposals for insurance schemes which are intended to limit the necessity for paying rates or income tax. It is almost impossible to devise any kind of insurance scheme that would be truly equitable. In Europe there are a number of countries which, through the growth of the co-operative societies and the co-operative principle applied on a very large scale, began their health schemes through the introduction of an insurance principle. Schemes varied from country to country. All those countries have found that it is quite impossible to charge on a pay-related basis, or on any other basis, the full cost of health and hospital services, because the cost of hospital services have grown so tremendously. If we look at the position in Denmark or the Netherlands, we will see that they have schemes on an insurance principle, but there are enormous subventions for hospital services from the State.

What is the reason for this? Even though it might be possible for the Minister for Finance to try to work out what the impact would be on the total expenditure of everyone concerned in an insurance scheme and charge the employers, the employees and self-employed persons compulsorily with an insurance premium the premium would either be so high that it would come to look like nothing more than a tax, or else it would be of a form that one could not be certain whether the relief of taxation that might be afforded would impinge on the various sections of the community in a fair and equitable way.

I am not saying this in order to give an easy or cheap answer to the Deputies in the Dáil. Deputies who have been a long time in this House and who have studied the reports of committees on taxation in general will know the difficulties of coming to sound conclusions on these matters. I do not know how to describe the means by which one arrives at a conclusion. You cannot tax a person more in relation to income tax without causing political difficulties and resentment and you cannot tax a person more in expenditure without going beyond a crisis point. We, as the Danes and the Dutch found, cannot charge insurance beyond a certain point by itself sufficient to pay for the health and hospital services without again causing a defence mechanism to arise whereby you know that you cannot go on with the proposition. If anybody could suggest to me a form of insurance that would really be equitable, that would really work, and that would have any very large effect in reducing rates and taxation in an equitable manner for the persons who pay the insurance, I should like to hear of it. I shall not go into detail about the Fine Gael scheme. It would not be worth while to apply that scheme in our present circumstances.

As I said, we shall go on thinking about the subject of whether some insurance scheme to replace the present system can be formulated. I do not know how it can be done. One of the difficulties is that if you substitute for rates a very considerable insurance scheme, it is very difficult to say whether simply relieving certain householders from rates as a result would be fair to people who do not pay rates. We would like to be certain of that. There might be some case for doing it, because everybody knows the rating system is imperfect in certain respects. It applies fairly in certain respects, but in relation to people with permanent incomes it applies unfairly. Provision has been made by the Minister for Local Government whereby rates can be remitted, through striking an extra rate by the county council, for those persons who are burdened by an excessive rate in relation to their unchanging incomes, incomes that have not altered through the passage of time and the growth of inflation. As I have said, it is very difficult to change the system we have.

Some Deputies have asked about the cost of our having the same system as can be found in Northern Ireland in relation to payment for the health services. The position here is that 90 per cent of our people get hospital services, drug assistance and out-patient facilities either free or for the very small sum of £7 a year, and only 10 per cent of the people are obliged to pay for most of their health and hospital services. The extra £30 million would add another £10 a year on taxation or rates to the £30 a year which is roughly being spent this year for that purpose. No doubt if the time came when we had to consider the co-ordination of the health and hospital services as between ourselves and our kinsmen in the North, we would have to go into the question of altering the service. However, I want to say with absolute frankness to the House that I cannot get a single statistic or fact in relation to the Northern Ireland health and hospital services which suggests that we have less good health here than could be found in the North before the terrible events took place which began in 1969. I can find no evidence to this effect in relation to expectancy of life, the death rate, the infant mortality rate or the perinatal death rate; I cannot find any evidence from looking at figures of deaths from various diseases. If deaths or afflictions from one particular malady are slightly higher down here we find they are lower in respect of others. Therefore, although it is true we shall have to consider this whole question of the method of financing our health services if we reach the point where a reunification measure comes into operation, I still say that our system has been greatly praised by doctors who came from Great Britain and from America and that we are not criticised by experts who come from outside in respect of our three-tiered system. Inevitably there will be defects in any three-tiered system, but I do not think it works so badly and I doubt if there are many people who are deprived of medical services to which they are entitled through the establishment of the three-tiered system which we have today.

Some Deputies made observations on the implementation of the FitzGerald Report. Let me repeat for the nth time that there will be no change in the function of the main hospitals of this country without, first of all, there being a study undertaken by the regional hospital boards, by the regional health boards and, in so far as the matter applies to the working of Comhairle na nOspidéal, by Comhairle na nOspidéal; and that before any change would be made I have agreed to consult the county advisory committees for health wherever there is a dispute on the future functions of a particular hospital. No hospital can be closed without my consent as Minister for Health, and under certain circumstances there must be a public inquiry held in relation to changes in the functioning of a hospital.

Having said that, I do want to point out to the House that the implications of the FitzGerald Report, not as applied to every recommendation they made but in general, are farseeing and, to my mind, must be pursued to the bitter end over a period of years. I am told by the experts in the field of consultant practice and by experts in the field of medical teaching that unless there should be some quite remarkable change in the general pattern of medical teaching, between eight and ten years from now it will not be possible to recruit surgeons for hospitals. Therefore, eight or ten years from now a number of recommendations made in the FitzGerald Report for the construction of certain general hospitals throughout the country and the closing of surgery in certain other hospitals will become absolutely inevitable.

This is not something which the relatives of people undergoing surgery like or appreciate, but it is always possible that, if a patient goes to a specialist hospital or a hospital where there are a number of surgeons and physicians working as a team with good paramedical facilities, the patients can return for convalescence, when they are regarded as out of danger, to a district hospital where they can be seen by their relatives more frequently. That is always a possibility in relation to the purely human problem, which is of great importance, that patients like to be as close as possible to their family.

Again, the FitzGerald Report must be seen in the light of the fact that there are health boards where already 22 to 25 per cent of patients go to Dublin hospitals in any event which, in many cases, are very far from where they live. Therefore, there is already a movement of patients from a local rural area to a regional hospital area and we want to examine the question of how many more regional hospital facilities we can provide which will reduce the number of people that need to go to Dublin. The extent to which we can do this will depend on the work of the regional hospital boards who, with the aid of competent staffs, would be analysing the results that will come from the in-patient survey of the Medico-Social Research Board. It may mean that in relation to some of the hospitals that will inevitably be developed in the country, such as Tralee, Castlebar and Letterkenny, and in relation to the more controversial proposals which have been made right through the midlands and on which there has been no decision, it may be found possible, if there is a sufficient patient workload for people living within a reasonable distance, to develop some specialties in these hospitals.

All this depends on very careful examination of the patient workload in each hospital and so there is no need for people to start marching or protesting on the future proposals in relation to the FitzGerald Report. Much of the FitzGerald Report is noncontroversial and can be pursued, even without waiting for the medical and social research board's findings because the facts are perfectly clear and evident, and this applies in particular to the development of the Cork Regional Hospital, the Tralee hospital, Castlebar, and the development, above all, of the great regional and general hospitals in Dublin where the population is increasing as in the case of other capital cities.

Deputy Burton referred to the position of Mallow County Hospital. I am going to see the county advisory committee for the north Cork rural area in order to explain to them why I refused to accept the proposition that not only should Mallow retain its surgeon but that it should be expanded. There is absolutely no case for the expansion of surgical or medical facilities there in a way that would go far beyond the population in the area and go beyond the inevitable results that would accrue from a very great modern regional hospital being built in Cork city. The action taken was to preserve the existing surgical facilities there.

I must say that I sometimes find it difficult to understand why people think that surgery is of such desperate importance in a local hospital. It is quite possible to imagine that in some hospitals where surgery, except perhaps for minor code surgery might cease, there could be expanded facilities for maternity cases, a better obstetrician—gynacological service, that some of the beds would be made available in order to conform with what I regard as one of the most correct decisions in the FitzGerald Report, that general practitioners should be allowed to take beds in county hospitals and to look after their patients. So you have the possibility of surgery stopping in a hospital but of there being better maternity facilities and above all, of general practitioners being able to find beds in the hospitals and to look after their patients there in ordinary medical cases. At the same time, if the FitzGerald Report is finally implemented one would expect more outpatient consultant services to be provided at the hospital.

This kind of service is growing, but all the emphasis seems to be on the retention of surgery as such, without looking at the whole picture of the developing services in the area concerned. If at the same time as a hospital changes its function, there is a great expansion of domiciliary services, if more people are being kept at home and looked after, more old people are being given meals on wheels and there is a whole community service made available to everybody in the area, while you may be centralising certain kinds of hospital treatment in one sense, you are decentralising the health services in another, so that no one could say that the Minister was a concentrator, a centraliser rather than a person who believed in a combination of inevitable concentration in relation to specialties and decentralisation in relation to the growth of community services.

This whole question will take some very considerable time to deal with. As I have said already in the House the Minister for Health has to face the very embarrassing proposals for the location of the general hospitals from the north midlands down to Waterford, in which Ardkeen Hospital in Waterford, Tullamore and Cavan have been chosen; we could have, even when the study is being made by the regional hospital boards and the regional health boards, so many deputations from people looking for Tullamore, on the one hand, and Mullingar on the other, for Monaghan instead of Cavan, for the preservation of Kilkenny and of Wexford, with the permutations and combinations involved in examining the proposition of where the general hospitals should go, from the north midlands right down to Waterford, that it would be enough to drive any Minister almost mad particularly after he had received a very great number of dissentient representations from people, all of whom claimed that their particular town was a better centre for the general hospital than another.

However, as I say, this is going to take some time to process and I am going to continue to communicate, as I try to communicate with everybody in relation to the FitzGerald Report and the whole development of health and hospital services through the country, through the advisory committees who can co-opt people who feel particularly keenly about a particular proposition. For example, the Roscommon County Advisory Committee could co-opt people from the Roscommon Urban District Council or from some group in Roscommon who felt very keenly about the retention of Roscommon, which is not in issue at the moment and cannot be decided for a considerable period, and so I would be able to hear from the body which is set up for this purpose. The county advisory bodies have been set up for the general purpose of ensuring that a regional health board apply the general health and hospital programme equitably throughout the area, so that domiciliary services, community services, public health nursing, general medical and hospital services are applied in a way which ensures that every county receives the same kind of treatment and can see that the same general standard prevails there as in every other county in the regional health board area. These county advisory committees are obviously the bodies to discuss the matters that arise when it is proposed that a hospital changes its function.

Whoever may be Minister—I may still be Minister or some one else may replace me in the future—may have to get very tough on this subject and in the end when the Minister makes a decision in relation to the FitzGerald Report, if he can be absolutely certain that he is going to save human lives, and if all the expert opinion given to him shows that, or if he can be certain that more people will be restored to complete health by having all serious surgery cases go to a hospital where there is a team working, the Minister would be justified in defying all the public opinion that may protest. That will be the ultimate consideration, and the Minister will have to be trusted, as I hope he will, by the Members of the Oireachtas and those who have particular feelings about particular areas in relation to hospitalisation.

The Minister can get very good advice on this subject. The modern consultants, those who are concerned with modern medicine and hospitalisation are all absolutely convinced that the multi-consultant hospital, with the right kind of para-medical facilities, is the best for a great many maladies. This does not apply to simple appendicitis or hernia or simple fractures or maladies of that kind, but as we get to know more and more about the human body we all realise that the interconnection between the various organs of the human body, can be far closer than has ever been imagined. When a person is affected by some malady it is very often important not alone that more than one opinion should be secured but that there should be examination by more than one doctor or surgeon.

As I have said, this is universally agreed all over the world. The Bonham Carter Report, published in Britain, was similar to the FitzGerald Report, in so far as the general principle is concerned of concentration for serious surgery, concentration within reasonable limits, not asking people to travel unnecessarily. This has already been demonstrated in practice by the very great number of patients who leave all parts of this country to go to Dublin to receive very specialised treatment and care. If I remember rightly, 29 per cent of the patient bed days in the Dublin voluntary hospitals are in respect of persons who come from outside Dublin. This is already an admission of concentration by the medical world and by the political world that you do have to move in order to get really first-class treatment in a specialist hospital. The FitzGerald Report examined the problem at a lower level of specialisation.

Having said all that, I want to indicate that I sympathise with the natural feelings of people in relation to this whole matter but at least I have provided an intelligent system of examination, the regional hospital boards, the regional health boards, the county advisory committees, Comhairle na nOspidéal, and the Minister for Health ultimately will be responsible for the final decision because it is almost impossible to imagine a single case where a decision of a major kind can be made without some financial element being involved, either from expenditure in a hospital which is to change its function in the direction of receiving more patients or a change of expenditure in relation to consultants or staff. So that the Minister for Health cannot get out of the responsibility which will ultimately fall on him, whoever he may be, for the implementation of the very controversial parts of a magnificent report, of which a great many elements and a great many proposals can be steadily implemented, as they are now, without this controversy arising.

Deputy O'Connell referred to the care of the aged in various ways. I want to tell the House that a great number of hostels for the aged are being promoted and are in various stages of building. A number of Deputies referred to this matter, including Deputy Donegan. I circulated statistics in connection with the capital schemes in progress applying to homes for the aged. I think we are doing fairly well. There were 357 places for old people completed since 1st May, 1971. There were 931 places under construction on 1st May, 1972. There are at tender 375 places and there are in planning—and I think I am right in saying that those that have been planned can be put into operation in the year 1973-74—631 places—a total of 2,294 places for the aged and that includes 14 new 40-bed hostels of the most modern type which will be built for old people who are still ambulant but who need some care, who are not chronically sick. These will be built in places where we can be sure that these old people, if their families cannot visit them, will be visited by voluntary organisations who will help to bring a human friendly atmosphere to the place. Apart from that, old people can be cared for in homes of this kind which compare favourably with the county homes that we had, many of which have been or are being improved. All of this clearly indicates that the object of the Government is to improve the geriatric service.

A Deputy raised the question of home assistance in relation to the community service, As I think I told the House in reply to a question, there has been no final decision about the general future character of home assistance and the method of its administration. The Minister for Social Welfare has indicated that he is examining the problem but the Minister for Social Welfare will agree with me that, whatever decision is made, the home assistance officers must co-ordinate with the community services, with the voluntary organisations, with the public health nurses, with those in charge of the community service, the health boards, because in a great many cases persons need far more than money when they apply for home assistance. They frequently need help of one kind or another. Frequently help can be a substitute for cash because there are some kinds of help which may be more valuable in the circumstances of the person in trouble than actual cash. So, I can assure the Deputy who asked me about the future of home assistance that we will certainly have the form of co-ordination which already exists in relation to the home assistance officers, that that will continue.

Deputy Burke referred to the necessity of having social welfare officers and social workers. We hope that in regard to the community services administered by the health boards there will be considered the necessity of appointing the kind of supervisory staff which will mean more encouragement to the appointment of social workers, working with voluntary organisations, as I hope, in most cases, so that the whole field of social work can expand throughout the country.

Deputy Donegan referred to the position regarding geriatric accommodation in County Louth. The Deputy is no doubt aware that, while the present situation could not be described as satisfactory, there has been a considerable improvement in recent years. The situation in Drogheda was relieved by the transfer of some patients to Ardee, the former district hospital, and a new building is being made available in the Dundalk County Home for use as a sanatorium, and approval has been given in principle to the erection of homes for the aged in Drogheda and Dundalk.

In speaking of this whole problem of geriatric care I must, of course, make it clear that we are only at the beginning of the road, as was indicated to us by Deputy O'Connell, in regard to providing a full geriatric service. When I refer to geriatric service I refer to expert facilities for geriatric assessment, assessment of the capacity of an old person to live in the community or whether the person needs to be rehabilitated, whereafter he may or may not be able to live in the community, or whether a person must be regarded as chronically sick. This examination of old people at the optimum point so far as they are concerned is of great importance. This policy is gradually being developed and it involves the appointment of either physicians who are skilled in geriatrics or of geriatricians. It is not very easy to get geriatricians at the moment although we have been able to appoint some.

A number of Deputies referred to the disabled persons' maintenance allowances and the implementation of section 69 of the 1970 Health Act. I told people in reply to Parliamentary questions that this would cost about £1¼ million a year and that having provided the great majority of the new services that were recorded and reflected in the 1970 Health Act, I believed I would have to wait in order to be able to implement this scheme in which the incomes of persons other than the spouse are disregarded for the purpose of determining the disability allowance. Certain Deputies suggested that uncles and aunts were being deprived of allowances by virtue of the means of nephews and nieces who live with them. We have written to the CEOs of the health boards pointing out that section 50 of the Health Act, 1953, only allows cognisance to be taken of the relatives specified in section 7 (5):

any spouse, son, daughter or parent of a person, or any brother or sister of a person normally resident with that person...

We asked the CEOs whether there had been any departure from this practice and we also suggested to them that they should take a reasonably liberal approach to the assessment of the means of relatives other than the spouse pending the introduction of section 69 of the 1970 Act. Having done that, one can be certain that the vast majority of those who desperately need disability allowances are getting them. As I have said, we hope to implement section 69 at a later date.

The cost of the health and hospital services is mounting so rapidly that it is simply impossible to do everything in one year, and with the choice-of-doctor scheme and the provision of drug assistance for the middle income group and the abolition of outpatient charges and the special facilities for those with certain disabilities such as epilepsy and mental illnesses, we contribute quite a good deal to helping people who are partaking of the health services. We have made a very good contribution in the last three years. We are making such progress as we can and we will continue to do so.

I come now to questions that relate mainly to health boards. The health boards are still in their formative stages. There are three programme manager posts vacant, in the East, North-East and the Western Boards. Some of the programme managers who have taken up office have done so only recently. There are some support staff posts that have not yet been filled in various areas. I have had a good deal of experience of administration of one kind or another—I have been in charge of eight State companies over a period of ten years and I have tried to learn as best I can modern methods of management—and I say that I could not expect health boards to be in full operation and revealing the potential for improving and making more efficient the health and hospital services until 1973-74, or perhaps the year after that.

I made it very clear to the House that the cost of the programme managers represented only a halfpenny in the £ on the rates and that the total cost of administration of the health and hospital services by the health boards in so far as health board expenditure is concerned is 3½ per cent. I do not think we need to be ashamed of that percentage. I doubt if there is a lower percentage to be found anywhere in Europe. All the remarks that were made in the Dáil that the health boards are enormously extravagant and expensive have not been shown to be correct by any evidence that I have. The increase in the total cost of the health and hospital services in the two years before the formation of the health boards is of a size which shows that whatever increase took place since then it certainly did not take place due to extravagance on the part of the health boards. Before the health boards were made operative, there were a good number of medical staff appointed. If I remember rightly, in the year 1970-71 something like 45 new consultants and psychiatrists were appointed all over the country either to do out-patient clinic work or to provide for the needs arising from a growth in the numbers of people attending hospital for one purpose or another.

The idea that the health boards in the first full year of their operation were recklessly extravagant in appointing more consultant staff, with a consequential increase in nursing and ancillary staffs, is totally without foundation and if anybody wants to ask a Parliamentary question the reply will show continuous progress is being made in relation to filling staff appointments of a medical kind and a para-medical kind that were absolutely inevitable.

A lot of people, like Deputy Coughlan, spoke in so loose and ignorant a way about the functions of the health boards and their purpose that I do not know whether I need to repeat the basis for their formation. It is quite simple. First of all, it was because of the growing specialisation in the hospital services, the fact that before the formation of the health boards there were a great many counties where virtually all the patients left the county to go to a hospital and a great many of them had to move throughout a larger regional area. In order to co-ordinate the hospital services within a health board area, the health boards were formed covering areas which for hospital purposes seemed to be reasonable in relation to the population and the number of hospitals in the respective areas and the purpose they served. The other reason was that if we are to get good health and hospital services where decentralisation is involved there must be expertise at the top, there must be opportunities for promotion for all kinds of expert staff dealing with the community services, and it was absolutely impossible to provide a system where there was expertise available in every one of the 27 health authorities which could be secured at a salary that could be afforded and where there were equally opportunities for promotion in those various fields.

So the area was enlarged with the idea of providing the right kind of headquarter staff, the secondary staff and the tertiary staff to do the best job possible in regard to all the services which should be decentralised and in order to ensure that the decentralised services would expand. This applies to the work of public health nurses, of the general practitioners and to the county medical officers of health, but it applies above all to the development of the domicialary services and the community services. If they are to be run in a first-class way, the staff at the top must have the facilities and the pay to ensure that the right kind of policy, the policy approved by the health boards, will be fully implemented.

I should like to say to certain Deputies who talked about the lack of information on the health services that I think this is true but I do not know how soon the health boards will be able to afford information offices for which provision was made in the Health Act. We are about to issue a new leaflet on the health services, or rather arrange for the health boards to publish a new leaflet, which will contain full particulars of all the health services available. I hope that if Members of the House find that local officers are slow in giving the necessary information to people about the health services they can get, they will make complaints to the health boards. I have not had many complaints on this matter.

There were a number of observations from various Deputies about the choice of doctor scheme. All I can say is that there will be a review after a period of operation and all the matters raised can then be examined. It has already been decided that, if the distance limit of seven miles is impracticable, it can then be extended.

Deputy Begley claimed that doctors must be resident at least two years in the country before being eligible to apply for appointment as a permanent or a temporary dispensary doctor. That is not so. The Deputy is presumably referring to the provision that, for official entry into the choice of doctor scheme, all doctors must have been in practice here for at least two years. A list of doctors wishing to participate in the scheme has been compiled on this basis and future vacancies will be filled on an open competitive basis without any residence qualification.

In the case of a doctor who joins the scheme and who takes on a partner or an assistant, that partner or assistant has no right to that doctor's patients in the event of his death. This could cause friction. A partner, who is married and who settles in a town like Swinford, might find himself deprived of a practice as a result of this. The Minister might look into that aspect of it. We should do everything to encourage doctors into the west.

All these matters will be examined as the scheme progress. Deputy Dowling suggested that persons in some areas are refused admission to the doctor's lists. He mentioned people living in a particular building. Doctors have the right to reject patients just as patients have the right to choose doctors. I understand that in the Eastern Health Board area no eligible person has been left without admission to a doctor's list.

May I ask the name of the building?

It was Mount Pleasant building.

But the Eastern Health Board facilities them. If patients contact the board they will be helped.

So I understand. No person has been refused admission to a doctor's list in the whole of the Eastern Health Board area. That is a splendid achievement remembering all the complexities involved in getting the system going. Some Deputy asked whether there would be an adequate night service from doctors participating in the scheme. The terms of the agreement with the health board obliges a doctor to provide domicilary services for patients on his panel, when called upon, and he is paid a higher fee for night calls, and the fee increases with the distance travelled.

Deputies referred to the fact that there were areas in the west which were under-doctored. This is quite true. There are areas in the west in which it is extremely difficult to get dispensary doctors. As soon as the preliminary arrangements for the choice of doctor scheme have been completed in all areas, the Department will be having discussions with the chief executive officers and the bodies representing the medical profession to determine what areas will require special inducements. Until the list of doctors participating in the scheme has been completed and patients have indicated their choice, a clear picture of the needs of these areas will not emerge. If it is necessary to advertise for someone who must be guaranteed an income in such an area, that can be done under the scheme. There is an extra payment for doctors living in remote areas in order to encourage them to take part in a service in such areas.

Deputy O'Connell asked what was the basis on which the cost of the choice of doctor scheme was calculated. It was assumed that on a national basis each eligible person would visit his doctor 3½ times per annum on average. It was accepted that in city areas the rate would be significantly higher because the practice has grown of more frequent visits either to the dispensaries or to the community health centres. This is because, unlike rural areas, the services are conveniently available. In the early operation of the scheme the visiting rate in Dublin city was higher than anticipated. On the other hand, the rate in Wicklow and Kildare was no higher than anticipated. It is far too early yet to say what the likely average rate will be for the Eastern Health Board area and I can say no more about this until we see what emerges from the computer.

The Minister will admit this was based on the British system under which all people are on the register, whereas here it is the lower income group which makes more demands on the doctor and, in consequence, there will be more visits.

We will have to wait and see. We have a fairly good reputation for correctly anticipating expenditure on new services and I hope we will be correct in what we anticipate this expenditure will be. As I say, we will have to wait and see what emerges from the computer.

It is true that there were some excessive claims which really could not be justified. In the arrangements we have provisionally agreed with the Medical Association and the Medical Union for the examination of these.

Deputy O'Connell suggested that the Minister or the health boards could not control the character of prescriptions. All we want to avoid is what might be described as really wasteful prescribing—in other words, prescribing a bottle of pills which in no circumstances could be fully utilised. There can be carelessness.

It happens more with hospitals who give geriatric patients as many as 200 or 500 tablets at a time so that the patient will not have to make too many visits. Old people whose memories are impaired will have forgotten at the end of a month or six weeks what the prescription was. This is the problem.

Deputy Byrne suggested that medical cards should be made available to the lower ranks in the Army and their dependants. This is impossible. The income standards for Army personnel should be the same as those for other groups and a provision like this would be neither just nor wise.

Deputy Treacy said the standards for medical cards bore no relation to average industrial earnings, which vary from about £25 to £40 per week. There is no reason for making such a comparison. The criterion for the issue of a medical card is inability to meet the cost of general practitioner services. Most industrial workers, earning £25 to £40 per week, should be able to afford such a service, bearing in mind the assistance given towards the cost of drugs.

Deputy Treacy made a number of comments on the eligibility standards for medical cards. I asked the chief executive officers of each health board to work out a system under which the differences in medical practices could be reconciled. I receive clips from all the local newspapers on health subjects. The regional health board has enormously increased publicity on health problems. It is absolutely amazing the amount of publicity that now comes from regional health board meetings as compared with that which emerged from the discussions on health in the county councils.

And then they say doctors do not want publicity.

Having read all these I have noticed complaints by certain members of health boards in regard to the standards that have been provided for health and medical cards but I have seen nothing like a really great volume of complaints at all. I think chief executive officers should be allowed to work out this principle. I think they are doing it well. The officers in my Department have routine discussions with them in all these matters in order to ensure that there is some element of uniformity as between one area and another and in order to ensure that the whole principle is being applied properly. As Deputies know, there is the hardship clause, which is a very vital part of the whole business, by which families who are just at the very upper end of the medical card level and who constantly have heavy costs in paying doctors can be given medical cards either permanently or for as long as they have a great deal of illness to contend with.

Deputy Tully said that the standards set by the North Eastern Health Board were not realistic, particularly in relation to the allowance for children. The standards applied in this area compare favourably with those applied elsewhere and the allowance of £1 per child per week has been adopted by at least five of the health boards. The North Eastern Health Board takes into account, when computing eligibility, any excess of £2 per week in respect of outgoings on the person's house. In so far as travelling expences are concerned I understand that the board allows £2 per week to persons who travel in excess of 20 miles per day to and from their work. These arrangements seem to be reasonable and I think perhaps with experience Deputy Tully may find that his complaints were exaggerated.

Deputy Kavanagh referred to what he regarded as the poor standard of ambulances in Wicklow. The ambulance services are being constantly improved and there is a standard ambulance provided. Some of the older ambulances are still in use in various parts of the country but they are gradually being replaced. I was very glad to find that the new ambulances have been so successful that the firm that assembled them is exporting them to Britain and they are in competition with all the firms who manufacture and assemble ambulances in Britain. The specification for the ambulance, council of my Department, and the manufacturer of the ambulance were apparently satisfactory. We are gradually developing better ambulances and in practically every area they are now radio-controlled. We still have the job of seeing what more can be done in relation to general telephone and radio co-ordination is between the ambulance, the hospital and the people who are concerned with accidents. That matter still has to be pursued and it is a very complicated one.

Deputy Gibbons said that patients requiring to go to Dublin should not have to get up at 5 a.m. to go to a collection point and be conveyed to Dublin to be in time for a particular clinic. He suggested that arrangements should be made to have clinics held later in the day to facilitate such patients. We will get in touch with the health board on this matter because it does seem a rather extreme case having to get up at 5 a.m.

Deputy Mrs. Burke said some terrible things about the health service in her area. She said there was no health services in rural Ireland, that what service there is is deteriorating with all the programme managers and health boards. All I can say is that when the county advisory committee for Roscommon is formed it will be the duty of the Deputy to ask for reports from the health board on what is supposed to be the services in the area and then to compile complaints of any deterioration of service which could be the result of poor administration or inadequate finance and to make quite sure that the county advisory committee present not only complaints but proposals for a better service to the Western Health Board. I am sure that in that way any weaknesses in any particular area can be put right—not immediately, perhaps, but in time.

Deputy Begley made a tremendous song and dance about a meeting of the Southern Health Board being held in the Mount Brandon Hotel. I understand that in future the meetings of the Southern Health Board, when they take place in Kerry, will take place in the county council offices in Kerry. There was some special reason, apparently for choosing the Mount Brandon Hotel.

A number of matters of a medical kind were raised. Deputy Ryan referred to the rats in Dublin. All information about a growth in the number of rats affecting an area should be presented to the Eastern Health Board. If people think that the danger is being ignored they can communicate with me and I will get in touch with the Eastern Health Board, but I have not any information that there has been a large increase in the number of rats in Dublin.

Deputy Ryan asked me how it was that deaths from heart disease seem to have been reasonably contained. I would suggest that the reason is the development of intensive care units in a great number of hospitals all over the country and the expansion of the consultant cardiac service. I should like to pay tribute to the "Mediscan" service and the work of the Irish Heart Foundation. The "Mediscan" service is an experiment conducted by asking people to come and be examined and see whether they are prone to suffer from coronary thrombosis. They are given some advice and referred to a higher level of medical advice if necessary. What we hope is that a sufficient number of them, when they are examined three years later, will have kept to the regime so that the service can be regarded as truly justified. If we can be certain that about 70 per cent of the people who have been told they must observe a particular regime because they are prone to suffer from coronary thrombosis keep to the regime then we can consider expanding the scheme beyond the ambit of the work done at present by the Irish Heart Foundation in various areas.

In connection with heart trouble I should like to refer to the very splendid example of co-ordination between two hospitals. I am speaking of the development which is now in progress of a national cardiac unit which could be described as a super specialist unit in the Mater Hospital with the co-operation of the Federation of Voluntary Hospitals. I regard that as a very good example of boundaries that previously existed between one group of hospitals and another being broken. I hope there will be more progress in that direction.

Are they appointing members of the Federation of Voluntary Hospitals to the staff?

I think they work in the centre. I do not think they are members of the staff of the Mater. The two groups of staff work together through a committee.

It might be a good idea if they followed the example of of Our Lady's Hospital and the National Children's Hospital.

Excessive smoking of cigarettes was referred to. As I said before, I do not think it is very much use trying to persuade adults to cease smoking. I can give as an example a recent effort made in Britain where there was a campaign of publicity and advice to women expecting a child who were very heavy smokers. They were warned of the almost certain results of heavy smoking during pregnancy. Even in those circumstances only 25 per cent of the women in that group gave up smoking showing how difficult it is to persuade adults to cease smoking.

Although there were some observations on alcoholism I wish more Deputies would refer to it. I should like to be plagued to a greater extent by Deputies as to what we are going to do about alcoholism, the worst social scourge of this country. It is conveniently put under the carpet by everybody. I shall make an announcement fairly soon of the development of a service by the Irish National Council for Alcoholism on a very expanded basis. I do not propose to give details now.

Will the Minister give them in the House?

Yes, if it is convenient, but they will relate to public relations and to a survey to be conducted in regard to this whole matter. They are not of a kind that will necessarily have to be given in this House.

Will it involve funds voted by the House?

Eventually it will. In regard to drug abuse, the Bill is nearly ready for introduction. There has been some delay because of difficulties in dealing with that part of it which relates to penalties and to general operations conducted by the Garda in relation to the Bill. I hope to introduce it as soon as possible.

Will it be in this term?

I hope so—if I pos- idea if they followed the example accommodation difficulties that have arisen in the accident and casualty department of Jervis St. Hospital. These difficulties were aggravated by the fact that the drug advisory centre was also at Jervis St. which meant that the majority of drug overdose cases were taken to Jervis St. for treatment. The extension of the casualty department has been under consideration and planning difficulties have been overcome so that I think the accommodation difficulties there will be relieved. This is being regarded as a matter of urgency.

The Eastern Health Board found the proposal to use Usher's Island centre as hostel accommodation to be inappropriate and when the activities of the centre as a day centre have expanded to the maximum it would not be possible to provide hostel accommodation. Dublin Junior Chamber of Commerce recently interested itself in this matter and has undertaken to provide and staff a hostel. However, the Eastern Health Board are considering a long-term plan to provide forensic services generally and this will include provision of the hostel type of accommodation recommended by the Working Party on Drug Abuse.

But not in the near future?

Not in the very near future.

The Minister will agree that hostel accommodation is very important for drug addicts?

I do agree although the success of the voluntary hostel is something that might be discussed for a long time because this is a matter of controversy. Still, I think they should be provided. Deputy Gibbons suggested that maternity deaths should be classified according to the social class of the deceased. We should look into this but whether it would be possible to do this I do not know.

Deputy Ryan and Deputy O'Connell, I think, suggested that the high admission rate to our acute hospitals reflected the possible deficiencies in outpatient, clinic and domiciliary services such as are available. The increasing demand in hospitals is being experienced in other countries also. I can assure Deputies, who seem to suggest that the large numbers going to our hospitals are due to inefficiency or inadequate medical service, that they are not right in what they say. In the US there are 150 admissions per 1,000 of the population; in Sweden, where there are superbly organised health and hospital services there are 140 admissions per 1,000. We are in the same bracket as Norway with between 110 and 120 admissions per 1,000. Denmark is somewhat higher. The British figures are lower but they are restrained by very long waiting lists for non-urgent acute conditions which, generally speaking, do not apply to the acute hospitals here except in the case of ear, nose and throat departments and one or two others.

We should not aim to follow or emulate other countries; we should be leading them.

I did not say we should emulate them; I was merely pointing out that there is no evidence that we have a situation here in which people are pouring into hospitals because there are inadequate out-patients facilities.

How does the length of stay in hospital compare with other countries? It would be an interesting figure.

I have not got that figure. I wish to make it clear also that in regard to hospital charges to private patients there is still an element of subsidisation by the State towards the maintenance of purely private patients. That is a fact. Even though hospital charges have gone up there is still an element of subsidisation.

There would have have to be if it costs £98 per week to keep a private patient in a teaching hospital and a private patient pays only £35 or £40.

Various Deputies mentioned the need for more hospital, county home, and mental hospital construction and so I should point out that in the list of schemes which have either been completed since 1971 or are at various stages of construction but in the case of all of which building can commence in either this or the next financial year, there are 62 schemes relating to general hospitals for additions, improvements or construction of one kind or another; there are 36 schemes affecting accommodation of old age persons, 32 mental hospital schemes, 23 mentally handicapped schemes and 41 schemes for the improvement of accommodation of staff, mostly nurses. We are making some progress in providing better hospital facilities.

Deputy Moore referred to the denigration of religious orders which is now a very popular form of sport in certain circles. We owe a great deal to the religious orders in our country for their help in hospital services, domiciliary services and in connection with the mentally handicapped. I regard as absolutely disastrous this attack on religious establishments by a great many people who should know better and who do not produce any alternative. I would suggest that anyone who wants to secularise everything overnight, as an ideal panacea for all ills, should go to certain countries where everything has been secularised. They can then come back and tell us if they like what they see. They can come back and argue it after they have been to the countries where everything has been duly secularised.

Deputy Moore asked about the long term plan for federated hospitals and voluntary hospitals. The arrangements are in train to develop a great hospital at St. James to replace Sir Patrick Dun's, Baggot Street and Mercers Hospitals. It will take a very considerable time to accomplish all this and in the meantime it is hoped to provide certain medical facilities at St. James Hospital which are urgently needed.

I do not think I need go into the question of the disposal of the property of St. Vincent's Hospital. All of this has been published in the newspapers. By an agreement made with the late Donagh O'Malley the nuns were permitted to use for themselves the proceeds of the sale of some of the property and for the property at 96 Leeson Street they agreed that the funds should be handed back to the State. That is an arrangement which I intend to keep.

I am afraid it is not possible for me to change the names of hospitals associated with cancer—I quite undestand what Deputy O'Connell meant —but neither can we afford to alter the position in relation to cancer patients and have all cancer patients treated in a great general hospital. Neither of those schemes is practical at the moment.

Maternity hospital accommodation is under very active consideration. We have communicated with the masters of the maternity hospitals here and a programme is emerging. If the Deputies choose to read the census, they will find that it would have been difficult for the Central Statistics Office, in the light of the figures available between 1966 and 1969, to predict the upsurge of births which has taken place during the past three years. If they study the history of efforts to calculate the future population of England and Wales, they will find it an extraordinarily difficult task. We are now on to this problem and we will have the necessary maternity accommodation made available.

Deputy Tully referred to the under-staffing of Cavan Surgical Hospital and the serious fire hazard there. The North Eastern Health Board have been endeavouring to find alternative accommodation for the patients and staff of the surgical hospital at Cavan where there is a fire hazard. The CEO is making arrangements to discontinue the use of the north wing comprising various numbers of beds and so forth. The intake of patients in this hospital is being relieved temporarily by referring County Cavan patients to the hospital at Navan or the County Hospital in Dundalk. The object is to reduce the fire hazard to which the Deputy referred.

Deputy Burke asked when a college of nursing will be established. This is being examined by An Bord Altranais, which is the body appropriate for this purpose. I have expressed the view that a college of nursing will be essential with special training in management. I am awaiting the report from An Bord Altranais on this matter.

Deputy Byrne in a very long speech referred to the imbalance of beds between the north side and the south side of Dublin. While it is true that it is customary to think of the hospital development being in some way bounded on either side by the Liffey, I do not think that this is necessarily the best way of looking at the entire situation. The Liffey must not be regarded as a Berlin Wall or an Iron Curtain. It is spanned by numerous bridges and I do not think we could continue to make comparisons between hospital developments north and south of the Liffey. We want to make quite sure that there is a right kind of hospital development to suit the population generally in the various areas.

Deputy Byrne claimed that tests of an emergency nature could not be done on Saturdays and Sundays because of the five-day week for laboratory technicians. This is actually not so. There are and there have been for a long time on call stand-by arrangements in operation for laboratory technicians and other key para-medical staff. When the stand-by requirements are needed, they can be put into force.

Deputy Byrne made a long song and dance about St. Laurence's Hospital. All I can say is that the scheme of improvements in St. Laurence's Hospital, now in progress includes a new neuro-surgical theatre, a new X-ray department and ancillary accommodation, new lifts, an extension of the out-patients department, an extension of the nurses' home, electrical re-wiring and fire precaution measures and being planned is the replacement of the boiler plant and centralisation. I can say without fear of contradiction that St. Laurence's Hospital has received very ample capital assistance as a result of arrangements which have been sanctioned by me.

Deputy Tully referred to patients suffering a financial penalty by choosing their own hospitals. He should know that eligible patients are liable for no charges if they receive treatment in a public ward in a health board hospital or a hospital to which they are admitted with the approval of the health board. There is a choice within the range of health board hospitals and hospitals with which the health board has a deeming arrangement. There is, therefore, no question of a charge arising for an eligible patient unless he decides to be a private patient or goes of his own accord without the agreement of the health board to a hospital with which they do not operate a deeming arrangement. I understand that in the case of the North Eastern Health Board they were in respect of certain matters going to deem Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital. The Deputy is a member of the board and it is a matter of a board decision. If certain people in the health board area have to pay if they go to the Lourdes Hos-pital——

There is, of course, as the Minister is aware, another hospital in Drogheda, the Cottage Hospital and there are a number of hospitals in Dublin which treat County Meath patients.

Perhaps the Deputy could take the matter up with the health board. If he thinks there is some anomaly, perhaps he would then get in touch with me.

As the Minister is aware, I do not really want to take the matter up with him but as I have already taken it up with the Eastern Health Board and there seems to be a misrepresentation of what those patients are entitled to. The Minister might consider trying to have the matter regularised. I think it is just a matter of a misunderstanding.

A number of Deputies referred to fire hazards in hospitals. We emphasise to health boards their responsibility in ensuring that hospital buildings under their control are examined regularly by the local fire officer. Fire fighting equipment is inspected and tested regularly. We try to ensure that regular fire drills take place and that hospitals are patrolled regularly at night and proper records of all matters pertaining to fire drills kept. We have drawn attention to fire protection standards set out by the Department of Local Government. Every year some of the capital fund of my Department is spent on improving the fire precaution arrangements in hospitals and undertaking rebuilding where required. When we meet the chief executive officers one of our duties will be to go over with them again the whole question of firefighting and fire hazards in order to ensure that everything possible is done to obviate the danger of fires in our institutions.

Deputy O'Connell told us of the fire risks in Nenagh Hospital. The Deputy said that there was only one nurse on night duty to cater for 40 patients. The Deputy was wrongly informed. There are normally six nurses employed on night duty at this hospital, which has an average daily bed occupancy of 93. In addition, special nurses are engaged to look after seriously ill patients. The matron considers that the arrangements are satisfactory. This is a modern hospital which was built in the 1930s. It is built of fire-resisting materials. Deputy O'Connell was given incorrect information in regard to this matter.

I have dealt with many of the points made by Deputies, with the major policy decisions of my Department and with the criticism applied thereto.

Vote put and agreed to.
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