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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Oct 1972

Vol. 263 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 47: Social Welfare.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £87,067,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1973, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Social Welfare, for certain services administered by that Office, for payments to the Social Insurance Fund, and for sundry grants.

The net estimate for Social Welfare for the current year as set out in the Estimates Volume is £87,067,000. This represents an increase of £11,818,000 over the original estimate for the year 1971-72. The amounts shown for 1971-72 against the different subheads of the Vote include the additional provision for that year made by way of Supplementary Estimate, and are therefore not comparable with this year's figures. We will need a Supplementary Estimate later this year to provide for the cost of the rate increases and other improvements following from this year's budget.

The figure of £87,067,000 which I have mentioned is the amount which the Exchequer will have to provide for the social welfare services. To arrive at the total expenditure on these services it is necessary to take into account expenditure from the Social Insurance Fund, the Occupational Injuries Fund, et cetera. On this basis, and applying the new rates of payment, total expenditure is running at a rate of about £170 million a year. As the increased rates of payment arising from this year's legislation will not operate for the full financial year, expenditure in 1972-73 will not reach this figure; it will in fact be about £154 million.

The main reason for the increased expenditure in 1972-73 as compared with 1971-72 is that the 1971 budget increases are payable for the full 12 months in the current year as against eight months and six months for assistance and insurance services respectively in 1971-72. I do not think it necessary to go through the figures for the different subheads of the Vote, particularly as these will fall to be increased by a Supplementary Estimate to allow for the 1972 budget increases. If Deputies have any questions on the specific provision under any subhead I will, of course, give them the information they require as far as possible.

It may be helpful to Deputies if I make some comments on our social welfare system generally. In developed countries it is accepted that nine major benefits should be provided by the social security system. These cover sickness, invalidity, unemployment, old age, widowhood, occupational injury, maternity, family allowances and medical care. The last-mentioned service is the responsibility of the Minister for Health, but the other eight are provided for in the social security system administered by my Department. On the insurance side we have unemployment, disability, maternity, marriage and occupational injuries benefit together with retirement, invalidity, widows' and orphans' and old age contributory pensions.

On the assistance side we have old age and widows' and orphans' non-contributory pensions, deserted wife's allowance, unemployment assistance and children's allowances. In addition we have other services which are not generally available elsewhere, such as free travel, free electricity, and free television licences. Accordingly, it must be accepted that we have broadly as comprehensive a spread of services as any other country. While our insurance coverage is not as wide as that found in many European countries, we cater under our assistance schemes for those not included under social insurance.

I have frequently expressed the hope that it will be possible to abolish the existing limit of £1,600 for insurability of non-manual workers and thus bring all employees within the scope of compulsory social insurance. The question of covering the self-employed against certain contingencies is a matter which is also being considered. This raises a number of issues in an economy like ours where the proportion of self-employed is relatively very high.

It seems to me, having regard to some Dáil questions on social security over the past few years, that certain Deputies are still under a misapprehension in relation to the matter of social security in the EEC and in particular in relation to our position on entry. I have tried to clarify the position in reply to questions and in the course of debates, but perhaps it would be useful to summarise the position once more. In the first place there is no uniform system of social security operating throughout the area comprising the EEC. Each member country has its own system, which it is free to develop in the directions it considers most appropriate to its own circumstances. Thus we may find in one country a particularly well developed family allowances scheme, in another the emphasis may be on pension schemes, and so on. It follows that there is no European standard to which we will be obliged to conform on entry. The fact, however, that we will be part of a community of nine nations working in collaboration in the field of social policy will undoubtedly foster a tendency towards harmonisation, if only as a result of each member studying and learning from the others' arrangements. The Community has adopted regulations dealing with the social security of migrant workers. These are binding on member states and will of course apply to us. I explained the provisions of these regulations in detail in the course of the debate on membership of the EEC in March last. Briefly, the purpose is to ensure that when a person moves from one country to another he carries with him his acquired rights to social security and will, therefore, not be at a disadvantage because of migration. So far as Irish workers are concerned these provisions will, in general, be much more favourable than the existing reciprocal arrangements. To take one example, children's allowances are not covered at all under the existing arrangements, whereas under the EEC regulations the allowances will be paid by the country in which a worker is employed even though his children may be resident in his home country.

The fact that we have legislation each year to give effect to improvements in our social welfare schemes affords the House regular opportunities for debating social welfare policy. The frequency of these debates may, however, tend to prevent us from realising just how appreciable are the advances made over a long period. For instance over approximately the last ten years major new schemes have been introduced covering contributory old age pensions, occupational injuries insurance, invalidity and retirement pensions, allowances for deserted wives, allowances for incapacitated pensioners and others over 70, free travel, free electricity and free television licences. The duration of unemployment benefit was extended from 156 to 312 days, the minimum age limit for entitlement to widow's non-contributory pension was removed and payment in respect of dependent children was extended to all such children where it had previously been confined to two. There were many other improvements in the schemes, all designed to remove hardships that came to light in the course of the ordinary day-to-day administration.

These extensions and improvements in the services, together with the regular increases in rates of payment, have naturally brought about a spectacular growth in expenditure on the social welfare services. In 1963-64 total expenditure, including administration, came to about £45½ million, of which the Exchequer met just over £31 million. For the current year it is estimated that total expenditure, including the cost in this year of the latest increases, will be approximately £154 million, of which £96 million will fall on the Exchequer. Total expenditure has thus grown by about 238 per cent between 1963-64 and 1972-73. It is significant, too, that the rate of increase has accelerated in recent years. Between 1963-64 and 1967-68 expenditure increased from £45½ million to over £68 million, an increase of 50 per cent, whereas the increase of £85½ million between 1967-68 and the current year represents an increase of 125 per cent. Total expenditure as a percentage of GNP increased from 5.4 per cent in 1963-64 to 7 per cent in 1971-72.

As Deputies are aware, the cost of the assistance services is borne by the Exchequer, while employers, employees, and the State contribute towards the cost of the insurance services. Of the total income of my Department 19 per cent comes from employers, 16 per cent from insured persons and slightly over 63 per cent from the Exchequer. The balance comes from investment income and from certain local authorities. Of every £1 spent in the year ended 31st March, 1972, 30.6 pence was spent on old age, blind and retirement pensions, 16.8 pence on unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance, 17.4 pence on disability, marriage, maternity and treatment benefit and invalidity pensions, 13 pence on children's allowances, 14.1 pence on widows' and orphans' pensions, 1.3 pence on occupational injuries benefit, 2.3 pence on miscellaneous services including deserted wives' and old age (care) allowances, and 4.5 pence on administration, including the cost of services rendered by other Government Departments.

In the year 1971-72 civil proceedings for the recovery of arrears of contributions were initiated in 355 cases. Decrees were obtained in all cases which came for hearing in that period. In the same year prosecutions for offences were commenced against 142 employers. Of the cases heard in the year, convictions were obtained in 134 instances. Fifty-seven persons were prosecuted for fraud in relation to social welfare payments, the most common type of fraud relating to claiming unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance while working.

The Department is a member of the International Social Security Association, an organisation with members in 100 countries throughout the world. Officers of the Department attend periodical meetings of the association and take part also in the work of the Council of Europe as members of committees of experts dealing with social security. Membership of organisations such as these is, in my view, very valuable in enabling us to keep abreast of developments in social security throughout the world. I have myself taken part in a number of meetings of Ministers responsible for social welfare matters and have found them of much benefit.

I mentioned earlier that Deputies have the opportunity of discussing social welfare matters each year when the Bill implementing budget improvements is before the House. In addition, we have a Supplementary Estimate each year to provide the money required for these improvements. Accordingly, it is hardly necessary for me to go into greater detail in explanation of an Estimate which I am certain Deputies will be prepared to accept.

I move:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

I am somewhat disappointed with the lack of information in the Minister's opening speech because this Estimate is the only real opportunity the House has of discussing the problems of the poorer sections of our community. For far too long social welfare recipients have been neglected. There is one specific matter I should like to emphasise. The Minister said:

I have frequently expressed the hope that it will be possible to abolish the existing limit of £1,600 for insurability of non-manual workers and thus bring all employees within the scope of compulsory social insurance.

This is overdue. It is almost 20 years since an inter-Party Government issued a White Paper on this particular matter. Because of the present rampant inflation and because of wages chasing prices there are people now moving outside the limit of insurable employment. This creates a problem for them. I welcome the Minister's decision in this.

The Minister referred to our social welfare benefits in the context of the EEC. There is a certain amount of confusion. There are people, particularly small farmers in receipt of unemployment assistance or what is commonly known as the small farmers' dole, who are under the impression that once we go into the EEC on 1st January next they will lose these benefits. I am glad the Minister has referred to that.

The Minister has also said that in the context of the EEC we do not have to harmonise our social welfare benefits with those of other member States. Surely there is an obligation on us to ensure that our benefits will compare favourably with those of other member States. In regard to children's allowances, old age pensions, contributory and non-contributory, there is a wide gap to be bridged. Therefore we cannot ignore social welfare benefits in the context of the enlarged Community.

I said at the outset that this is an opportunity to discuss the problems of the less well-off sections of the community. I wish to draw the Minister's attention to some complaints I have received. Such complaints have been raised time and time again but no action seems to be taken. The maximum non-contributory pension is £5.15. If a book is recalled for investigation, weeks go by before the book is reissued and it takes as long again before arrears are paid. In one case where a book was recalled a person in receipt of a non-contributory old age pension had to wait for ten weeks before the book was reissued. This is unfair and I cannot understand the reason for it. I know there can be some difficulties but nothing would justify taking that length of time to investigate a case and keeping an old age pensioner without any income during that period. I have heard from other Deputies of cases where people had to wait longer, in some cases even for months. The allowance is small enough and therefore it is necessary to have it paid weekly. I would ask the Minister to investigate this in order to alleviate some of the hardship.

When people with a business or a farm come to the age of 70 years they often wish to make a normal family settlement. Application is made for an old age pension and I have seen a number of applicants turned down because the investigating officer is suspicious that the settlement is made for pension purposes. This should not arise. We should be encouraging people who own farms to transfer them to members of their family. In many cases people will continue as owners of a farm for far too long. We should encourage them to transfer the farm because this will lead to better farming, in the first instance, and will benefit the family considerably. I know the pension officer, under the Department's regulations, has to say in his report that, in his opinion, it is for pension purposes, but under question by the pension sub-committee of which I am a member he will agree that it is natural to have these family settlements. I hope the Minister will take note of what I am saying.

There are many problems in connection with our social welfare benefits, the greatest being that the amount is totally inadequate. If we are realistic about solving this problem it is necessary to determine once and for all the amount that is necessary to keep a person in existence for a week, because this is the only guideline for providing adequate social welfare benefits. There is no doubt that the reform of social welfare is far too low a priority. It is a terrible state of affairs that people who have given a lifetime of service to the State should be asked to depend on such a meagre allowance. Social Welfare is the one thing that has not kept abreast with the rising cost of living, not to mention the standard of living. For example, in the year 1965-66 the non-contributory old age pension was £2.30; the contributory pension was £2.62½. Today the non-contributory pension is £5.15, and the contributory is £5.60. Could we stop for a moment and ask by how much the cost of living has increased since 1965-66; how much have we bothered to examine the cost of living for these people? One has only to think of the various items of food. Take meat, for example. By how much has it risen since then? Such small items as potatoes have risen by over 100 per cent since 1965-66. Apples, cabbage, all kinds of food, have risen from 120 to 143 per cent. Have we increased the benefits to those who are in receipt of social welfare by that amount? The greater part of the income of those in receipt of social welfare benefits is spent on food. They cannot afford the luxuries of life.

Therefore, it is necessary to establish what it would take just to keep a person in existence for a week. Surely nobody should have an income of under £10 a week at present? This is necessary if we are to treat with Christian charity people who have given a service to the country. We know that it costs between £10 and £13 a week to keep a person in an institution. We have not yet realised that many people, because of the inadequacy of their incomes, are forced to go into our already overcrowded institutions. Because of the way we have treated our old age pensioners and others we have added to this problem of overcrowded institutions. This is what we must avoid. We should increase allowances so as to enable and encourage people to look after the aged at home.

I have been involved in a number of voluntary organisations dealing with the aged. These organisations provide recreational facilities, meals on wheels and many other things for these people. Great credit is due to them. They got very little assistance or encouragement from the State or from local authorities until recently. In my own town there are associations such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, geriatric societies and people who are in charge of meals on wheels. If it were not for the service given by voluntary organisations many more of our aged and infirm would be in institutions. It is necessary to determine a national minimum income so that we will not have people on the poverty line.

We have heard much from Government Deputies and Ministers, and I think there was a White Paper issued by the Inter-Party Government some years ago on the question of reducing the qualifying age for old age pensions. This would be very desirable but I would be far more concerned with dealing adequately with those who are in receipt of pensions at present. I would not widen the net and commit more people to a lower income even though it probably is necessary to reduce the qualifying age.

There have been fringe benefits provided for pensioners which are very much appreciated. They were overdue. I refer to free travel, free electricity and television licences. Many pensioners have television and travel more than they would otherwise do because of these concessions. This is helping those people in a small way.

We have heard about pay-related benefits. I am sure the Minister will be introducing a Bill in the House shortly to deal with this. It should not be delayed. It is very desirable to widen the net and accommodate more people in social insurance. I refer to self-employed people, particularly to farmers. This is very necessary. As far as unemployment assistance for small farmers is concerned, whoever drew the boundaries must be crazy. The poorest part of my constituency is omitted and the people there are not entitled to unemployment assistance. The Minister should review the areas.

Home assistance is something that must be changed. It is a demoralising thing. I do not want to condemn home assistance officers. They are doing a good job although some of them are probably not sufficiently trained. If a mother of a family suddenly becomes a widow she does not qualify immediately for widow's pension. It takes some time before her case is investigated. The widow must go along to the home assistance officer and look for home assistance until such time as the Department have investigated her claim and granted her a widow's pension. This is demoralising. The same applies to children of a widow who qualify under the free boots scheme and the free milk scheme operated by the local authority. I cannot see the justification for making children submit themselves for examination to qualify for free boots. Why not pay them an allowance so that they could buy boots rather than have to go to a home assistance officer. This creates second-class children in our schools and playing fields and it should be got rid of immediately. It belongs to a different age. We should be more sophisticated and more Christian in our approach to people who are in need. The Minister should tackle this immediately.

We were informed that there would be a reorganisation, an integration of the home assistance officers and the officers investigating claims. You can have a situation where the pension officer investigates an application and because the amount provided by the Department is not sufficient the home assistance officer must go along some time later to investigate the same case. If people qualify for rates relief the rate collector carries out a somewhat similar investigation. Surely this is not necessary? Surely the fact that people are old age pensioners or in receipt of social welfare benefits should be sufficient to satisfy the county manager or the rate collector that they are entitled to a remission of rates? Thousands of cases are investigated by three different officers. These are the poorest people in our community and to be subjected to such investigations is an embarrassment to them.

This reminds me of another matter, which I heard the Minister mention when he introduced his previous Estimate, and it is something I feel strongly about. Admittedly, as long as the present system remains cases will have to be investigated by the pensions officer. We accept this. On our pensions committees we have ten or 12 local people passing judgment on the applications and claims of their neighbours. If somebody is not satisfied with the committee or the amount awarded to the applicant there will be a full investigation and the applicant's means and the family settlements will be thrown open to discussion. I have heard these matters discussed in pubs. I think it is time these committees were abolished. The Minister should examine this matter. There should be some buffer between the Department and the applicant, some system under which the applicant's means would not be discussed in public. This is wrong.

In the case where an applicant has reached the qualifying age for a pension and the question of means is in dispute between the applicant and the Department's officials, there should be some system by which the applicant could get a hearing with an official or an appeals officer present to examine the case and by which the applicant or somebody selected by him, a solicitor or otherwise, would be present to give evidence or handle the case. I do not agree with the pension committee system. These committees have no function beyond examining and ascertaining means. The pensions officer will attend meetings if requested to do so. As one who has attended almost one meeting per month since I was elected to Cork County Council I say this. If the pension officer brings in his recommendation, can the committee change it? They can discuss it with him but it will not be altered. To my mind the committee has no function and has no power to change the decision that is already made even by bringing new information to light. My experience is that the pensions officer will not change his recommendation. He is obliged to open the file and discuss with the committee full details of the applicant's means and family settlements—a daughter getting £1,000 and, perhaps, a son getting £2,000, and so on, how the farm is distributed —and this is recited for the benefit of the applicant's neighbours.

There should be a much more sophisticated method of determining what an applicant is entitled to get. Perhaps it could be by means of an oral hearing with an appeals officer present. They do it behind closed doors in any case. If an officer makes a recommendation and if the applicant appeals the decision is made behind closed doors and the applicant takes whatever amount is given. Could the Minister examine this position and suggest some alternative? This is something that should have been done long ago. The views I am expressing are the views of many members of committees. I think this is a matter of urgency and I should like the Minister, when replying, to say if he has any suggestions.

We have different groups of people —this may not be entirely relevant— including politicians talking about reunification which is very desirable but we are asking people in the Six Counties to accept a much lower standard of living. I think the children's allowances are three or four times greater there than what is paid here. By these allowances you could provide more benefits for a section that would derive great advantage from them, the younger people. The children of today will be the men and women of tomorrow. Children who grow up in neglect and poverty will be a liability. Families here are twice as large as they are in Britain and where children are in want and undernourished they will not be able later on to contribute to the State to the same extent as children who grow up in plenty.

Children's allowances should be increased considerably immediately. This would benefit the weakest section of the community. Do we realise the cost of bringing up a family? I think we do not realise the cost of young children, their clothes and shoes and the many demands they entail for the widow with three or four of them on an income of less than £10 per week. It is impossible to make ends meet with the amount provided. In my experience in the majority of cases it is the mothers who draw the children's allowances and where there is an irresponsible father, or an alcoholic, if the children's allowances were raised considerably it would help the homes and particularly widows rearing families under most difficult circumstances. I hope the Minister will tackle this problem which is a long-standing one.

I have seen a number of employers who do not stamp cards for employees but I have never seen a prosecution. I have known workers who found when they applied for benefit that their cards were not stamped. I have made representations to the Department and I got acknowledgments but I have never been informed whether the employer was compelled to stamp cards or not. Not long ago resolutions were passed by at least two local authorities in County Cork bringing this problem to the notice of the Department. If employers get away with not stamping cards it is wrong. They should be compelled to stamp workers' cards.

I actually gave the Deputy in my speech the number of prosecutions.

I have known a few of them and I am waiting for action to be taken. I have not seen it taken and I have waited for the most of 12 months. If it is discovered that an employer has not stamped cards, is not a year a long period before the offender is brought to court?

It is the Government's job to try to create more wealth in the country and, having created it, it is also their job to see that it is equitably distributed and that the weaker section should benefit more. The situation is rapidly developing that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

I am disappointed by the amount of information the Minister has given us. Admittedly, Deputies have an opportunity when the Budget is introduced to discuss social welfare payments. One regrettable aspect of the Budget is that payments passed in April do not reach the beneficiaries until the following October and in some cases the following January. This aspect of the Budget should be examined in view of the fact that by the time the increased payments are received the benefit has been eroded by the increases in the cost of living which have taken place in the meantime. I do not understand why the poorer sections of the community are treated in the way they are. It should be realised that there are problems arising out of social welfare which must be solved.

Rather like Deputy Creed, I am afraid I must start by saying that I do not find the information supplied in the Minister's introductory statement to be adequate. His speech illustrates the degree of self-satisfaction, complacency, existing not only in the Cabinet but in the country in regard to social welfare and social security. Why should the Minister's speech be so brief? I could legitimately ask for an explanation as to why notes made available by the Minister to Fianna Fáil Deputies in relation to this Estimate are more extensive than was the Minister's speech to the House. One must protest and seek from the Minister an explanation as to the circulation of private notes to individual Fianna Fáil Deputies through the Fianna Fáil Whip's office. I would ask if this is in accordance with the best traditions of the House.

In the case of the Estimates for the Department of Transport and Power, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and, notably, the Department of Health, the respective Ministers traditionally provide every Deputy with background notes and information. I must strongly protest that on this occasion it would seem that background notes and information on the Department of Social Welfare have been circulated through the Fianna Fáil Whip's office to Fianna Fáil Deputies only. I do not want to pursue that matter further beyond asking the Minister at this stage to clarify the position. I shall not be able to conclude my contribution until next week as the debate will be adjourned at 2.30 today. I should like to have the maximum possible information before concluding my speech. I do not in any way hold the staff responsible for this matter. This is a piece of Fianna Fáil practice which should be questioned here and now. I would ask the Minister directly if I also as Labour Party spokesman on Social Welfare, may have a copy of these notes.

I did not circulate any notes.

Am I wrong in assuming that notes were prepared in the Minister's Office of the Department of Social Welfare for the benefit of Fianna Fáil Deputies exclusively?

Deputies have a service of their own which looks after their own interests.

I do not think that is correct. My information is that the Minister has made available through his Whip's office detailed background notes in regard to his Department for the purposes of this Estimate which are quite separate and distinct from the speech he has made to the House.

The Deputy is sure that the information is not in relation to the revision of constituencies?

I gather that other notes have been made on that matter. I am talking specifically about social welfare. We are entitled to protest at this practice. In Britain it is the practice to circulate to all Members of Parliament detailed background information. Here the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the Department of Health and the Department of Transport and Power provide such information for Deputies and we get a volume of background information each year from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. I would hope that this matter would be cleared up between now and next Thursday or Friday when discussion of this Estimate is resumed. I intend to raise the matter again. All Deputies are entitled to receive the same basic information from Departmental sources. I make that point by way of illustration of the inadequacy of the Minister's four- or five-page contribution to the House.

I am gratified that the Minister has dealt with the question of our social security system on our entry into the European Economic Community. I agree with a great deal of what he says but I would go much further. It is quite correct that the treaty does not specifically provide for harmonisation of social security systems and that, accordingly, our membership would not entail any direct obligation being undertaken by us to modify our system. As a statement of fact, that is supportable. However, we must have regard to the long-term implications of our accession to the EEC in regard to the harmonisation of our social security system with the systems operated by the other eight member States. The resources of the European Social Fund will be available to us to assist in the expansion of our retraining and resettlement schemes, under the Department of Labour. I would hope that under a restructuring of Government Departments the European Social Fund would come under the ambit of a Minister for Social Affairs. I hope that we would no longer have a Minister for Social Welfare as such, which is a rather outdated concept, to say the least.

We have also to take into account in the context of EEC membership the implications of the Protocol concerning Ireland signed by the Taoiseach and by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Hillery. This Protocol calls on the Community institutions to use all the financial means at their disposal to assist us in achieving our policy of economic development. In that context I would avail of the financial resources of the Community institutions to enable us to develop further our social security system. I place the broadest interpretation on the Community protocol. I have been quite critical of the content of the protocol and I regard it as rather nebulous in its attitude towards this country. The Taoiseach and Deputy Dr. Hillery accepted it too readily without amendment to give it more teeth. We should avail of whatever financial assistance is forthcoming to us arising out of the protocol in order to improve our social security system.

During the referendum campaign the Government were extremely careful to point out that there was no direct obligation on this country to harmonise our social security system with that of the EEC. Nevertheless great play was made of the fact that social security benefits were higher both in Britain and in the EEC and we would, therefore, in this country be expected to receive a much higher share of the benefits. Between now and the next general election, which I presume will be next May, some of the extremist propaganda of the EEC referendum should be put to the test in the context of restructuring and modernising our social security system.

The Minister said today that there is no uniform system of social security operating throughout the area comprising the EEC. I agree with him on that point. There has been a little too much loose talk in fashionable social security circles about the wonders of EEC social security. While we must level up and broadly bring our social security system into context with the EEC, I agree with the Minister that the complexity of their systems is not appreciated in this country. The Minister this morning warned us in that regard.

It is very difficult to make comparisons in regard to the social security system in this country and those in the EEC countries. It is extremely dangerous for any politician in any country to make any kind of sweeping generalisation about the EEC social security systems. This is well illustrated in a document which the Department forwarded to me at my request, the EEC publication, comparative tables of the social security systems in the member States, the sixth edition of July, 1970. It was quite evident from a cursory examination of that document that as yet there is no harmonisation between the systems in the different countries of the Six and it is likely that there will not be in the Community of the Nine.

It must be pointed out to the policy formulators in the different political parties in relation to social security in this country that the social security systems of the Six and of the Nine have all grown up independent of each other. The principal point of comparison is that they have spent and are spending vastly more money and vastly more of the gross national product than we are in the sphere of social policy. I detected a note of pride in the Minister's voice when he assured us that the total expenditure on social welfare in this country as a percentage of GNP had increased to 7 per cent in 1972 from 5.4 per cent in 1963-64. If one takes Luxembourg, Belgium, France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands into account one finds that they are spending between 14 per cent and 17 per cent of GNP on social welfare. The statistics for 1969-70 show that at least 13 per cent to 16 per cent is spent and we are in the region of 7 per cent. Therefore, it is necessary that we should spend an increasing proportion of our GNP on social security.

I agree with the Minister when he states that comparisons are extremely dangerous to make, generalisations are extremely dangerous to make and also comparisons in relation to GNP expenditure are extremely dangerous to make. While a lot of statistics are available in this country and in the EEC in relation to social security expenditure, a great deal depends on what one is talking about. There are so many qualifying footnotes in relation to the social provisions of the Six that only the propagandists are inclined to discard them when talking about social security in the EEC.

We have an advantage in this country which many of the EEC countries do not have. We tend to have a national system of social security. It is highly inadequate and rather outdated and I would say that it is suffering from the old age of one political party running it for 15 years. I would not care to live in Italy where they have six different national bodies responsible for different aspects of national insurance. In France I believe they have three different systems of national insurance. Many countries have individual, separate systems entirely for individual, occupations. The mining industry, for example, has a complete system of its own. Therefore there is no universally operable system within the Six and very little of what I would call centralised administration. We in this country at least have the benefits of that and I do not think we should be unduly apprehensive about learning a great deal from the Six or the Nine or Eight. I do not think we should be unduly apprehensive about trying to harmonise our system with that of the Six and we would be undertaking a far more fruitful political exercise if we were to attempt to harmonise ourselves in the first instance with Northern Ireland.

While I will deal more extensively next week with the subject, I want to make one comment on it and to use the phrase quite deliberately that it was total, sheer and brass hypocrisy on the part of the Taoiseach when he suggested in Der Spiegel that there would be very little difficulty in harmonising social security in the Republic with that of Northern Ireland in the context of a united Ireland. For international neck the Taoiseach deserves the prize of the year in relation to making a specious statement of that nature. It is very important to point out that in the context of national unity, the cost to Britain of maintaining its existing social security levels and benefits in the North means that they would have to continue a payment of about £100 million a year, leaving aside our up-levelling social security contributions in the Republic. In the 1971-72 financial year, financial transfers from the UK to Northern Ireland alone in relation to health services amounted to £20 million, in relation to family allowances and supplementary benefits, £37 million, in relation to transfers to national insurance funds, £15 million and towards additional unemployment premiums, £10¾ million. Taking these items alone, they total almost £83 million in transfers from Britain, just to give Northern Ireland its current British standard of social security. Does the Taoiseach seriously suggest that we take over that almost £100 million?

Then we have the cost of raising the Republic's social security benefits to UK levels which are operative now in Northern Ireland. This has been estimated by the most authoritative, the most conservative and most rational economist and social quantifier in Britain and Ireland as being not less than £140 million a year. I would like to know where the Taoiseach proposes to find the £240 million per annum to bring about the elimination of what one might call the major social barrier as between North and South in the context of a united Ireland. Even the most cursory glance at the current situation shows that if the Republic were to do that as of now we would have to raise taxation in this country by not less than 6s in the £ overnight. That is on current levels of taxation. It would represent a 30 per cent rise in our tax burden as of now and I do not think anybody wants to see taxation running at a level of 50 per cent of our gross domestic product as our rates of taxation are high enough at the moment. The Taoiseach is trying to play a kind of three-card trick by saying that we will pay more in the Republic, that Britain, of course, will have to pay more and not only will Britain have to hand over the Six Counties but she will have to pay a bloody fine, fat sum of £50 million to £100 million for the privilege of handing them over. All that means is that we are living in a kind of Fianna Fáil cloud-cuckoo land.

Family allowances in Northern Ireland are twice what they are in the Republic. To quote a personal example, recently I met an unfortunate ex-internee from Long Kesh who is now living in Dublin and living here because, being an ex-internee, he regards himself as having a death warrant out for him after his release if he dares return to Northern Ireland. He is a man who was involved in the civil rights movement on the streets and had nothing whatever to do with either the Provisional IRA or the Official IRA. He is a young Belfast man, a leader of one of the rent strikers, who is now in Dublin working for £26 or £28 a week. He has children's allowance for his three children in Dublin. The family are coming to live in Dublin. When it dawned on him after an hour's discussion I had with him in relation to what children's allowances he would get—exactly what I am getting; I think it is somethings over £4 a month—and when he discovered that he would have no supplementary benefits allowance, no supplementary benefit on unemployment assistance, if he became unemployed in Dublin, no general domestic assistance in terms of assistance towards payment of rent and so on he had a few caustic things to say about the Republic of Ireland and about national unity. He is an Irishman who did 12 months in Long Kesh, because of his entirely legitimate civil rights activity —I draw that distinction in his case— and was imprisoned by Brian Faulkner, being one of those unfortunate Irishmen who did not think he was going to be interned—most of the boys who knew got out quickly enough—and on that basis when I discussed a united Ireland with him, he was not thinking in the terms in which the Taoiseach spoke.

These are the hard realities of Irish life today and certainly there is a great need for explicit discussion in this community not merely in terms of Ireland and entry into the EEC, but Ireland in the context of the people living together not just in reconciliation and peace, not just in the context of not murdering one another but in the context of sharing equal standards of living and equal standards of social benefits.

Therefore I suggest that while considering the role of Ireland in the EEC the House must also address itself to the problem of harmonising our social security system with that of Northern Ireland and Britain, and I would point out to the House regarding the financing of our social security system that the State provides here more than two-thirds of the cost compared with less than half in the United Kingdom. This is one of the greatest difficulties facing us in the matter of financing social security in the context of EEC membership where the percentage provided by the State varies from 7 per cent in the Netherlands to 22 per cent in Belgium and Germany—a notable difference of which we must be aware.

In France and Italy the State bears two-thirds of the cost of social welfare and in Belgium the employers bear half the cost. In Germany and the Netherlands the employers bear two-fifths of the cost. In the United Kingdom the figure is 25 per cent. Employers in this country, roughly speaking, bear 16 or 17 per cent of the cost. That is a wide disparity between Ireland and the other members of the EEC. In the long term we will have to ensure that such major disparities are levelled out and that there is harmonisation as between employers' and workers' contributions. It is an important point, one which we tend to ignore.

I very much doubt if any serious consideration of a long term nature has been given by the Fianna Fáil Government to modern trends in the social security field in the EEC. I do not think there has been any serious discussion on this matter and I am appalled by the prospect of Deputy Brian Lenihan being Minister for Foreign Affairs and presumably having liaison with Deputy Hillery in regard to such domestic Irish matters because I do not foresee anything good coming in the context of revamping or modernising our whole area of social administration, particularly the social security system.

They are the question marks I have facing this Estimate. Now that we are entering the last year of this Dáil I do not think it is good enough just to get the classical Fianna Fáil attitude of sitting on those benches saying: "Let us hold tight until March or April. Jack will make sure the old age pensioners will get 50p or 75p which will not be payable until October".

That has been the extent of Fianna Fáil social welfare policy. It has evolved and revolved around that kind of social concept and they have been lucky that the Irish people have had confidence in that kind of approach during the past 15 years. It amazes me that anybody could have confidence in that kind of attitude. I have seen no effort on the part of a Fianna Fáil Government to get to grips with major defects in our social security system.

In this respect I would make one point very forcibly. I have been reading through what one might call the Department's production on social welfare and I think it is ironic that the only serious contribution made since the last world war was by the late Deputy Norton in 1949 when in a white paper he brought in a national system of social security. In the last 15 years of Fianna Fáil Government not one white paper, green paper or explanatory memorandum of any content has been introduced by the Government outlining their views on modernising, or on a planned development of our social security system.

When the debate is resumed I intend to outline the various areas where deficiencies have been manifest. The senior staff of the Department of Social Welfare through the years must have felt that they were there merely to administer a system which has changed only by alterations in the rates of benefits immediately after budgets. That has been the only progress made in this field.

The contribution of the Minister on this Estimate is an indictment of Government policy in the past 15 years. I am not quite sure which portfolio Deputy Hillery will assume in Brussels but I hope they do not fob off on him that of administration. There has been a sad lack of that at home. If he has the fortune to be allocated the Commissionership for Social Affairs he will have to light a fire under his colleague at home, Deputy Brennan, so that he will not be going off to Brussels burdened with the current futile system of social welfare in Ireland, a totally inadequate system in terms of fellow EEC members, inadequate to come to grips with the problem of poverty in our community.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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