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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Oct 1972

Vol. 263 No. 2

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Social Welfare Services.

101.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if, in order to reduce to the minimum those differences in the quality of the social services which tend to impede progress towards the unity of the Irish people, he will indicate the steps he proposes taking to bring the level of benefits to all persons in the socially dependent classes including old age pensions, disability and unemployment benefits up to the level at present obtaining in the North of Ireland.

I would direct the attention of the Deputy to the very substantial improvements in our schemes in recent years and, in particular, to the continuing upward trend in the rates of the various payments. There are further plans to improve our services structurally. For example, a Bill is at present before the House to provide for wage-related unemployment and disability benefit, and proposals for a reform of the assistance services, including home assistance, have been formulated. These, and other measures contemplated, will bring our services more into line with those of the North.

102.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare whether any consideration has been given at Government level to the economic implications of unity in the light of the Taoiseach's Der Spiegel interview so that arrangements could be worked out which would ensure that union with the South would not leave Northern social welfare beneficiaries less well off; whether it is intended to bring social services in the Republic up to a Northern level; and whether the Taoiseach's Der Spiegel statement implies British financial aid.

The economic implications of unity are a very important consideration and are being studied inter-departmentally. It is the view of the Government that the existing discrepancies between North and South in the social and economic fields are not insurmountable particularly with membership of the EEC, and that suitable financial arrangements could be worked out at the appropriate time. A complex matter of this kind would, of course, require serious negotiations between all concerned.

Would the Minister please tell us what that means?

What it, in fact, means is that if the present rate of climbing towards equality with the North is maintained for a number of years, the arrival or the getting there is already in sight.

I am tempted again to ask what that means but I will be charitable.

One has only to look at the two systems over the past ten years and see how the gap has closed. It is as simple as that.

103.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare in relation to a recent magazine interview the amount he considers would be required to bring the level of social security in this country up to a par with that in Northern Ireland.

105.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the current estimate, if any, of the gross cost of bringing the level of social welfare services in the Republic up to those in operation in Northern Ireland.

I propose, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 103 and 105 together.

Differences in coverage and qualifying conditions between the two social security systems render it impracticable to arrive at any reliable estimate of the cost of equalising them.

Surely the Minister is aware that estimates have been made by Members of this House and by authoritative economists in both Northern Ireland and Britain——

All of them wrong.

Would the Minister accept that it would be £100 million or, if we include the health services, the figure would be as high as £160 million? Surely a figure is available and it is quite wrong for the Minister to say it would be arithmetically impossible to calculate it?

I should much prefer not to give a figure than to give a wrong one, and as the Deputy knows, having done his home work, all the estimates attempted have been wide of the mark. The schemes in the two areas are not comparable. I have been asked a question about what our social welfare payments would have cost had they been at the same rates as in Northern Ireland. That was easy because we could take only the schemes we had and compare them with their counterparts in the North. There they have employees, they have self-employed and unemployed, all qualified for benefits of a different type. Then the question of supplementary benefits comes in. If I were to take the last census figures, how am I to know the number to whom benefits will apply in any particular sector? Widows' pensions alone would not be comparable because they have to pay for 26 weeks, there is an age limit of 40 years and there is a lower rate and a higher rate. Here we pay at the same rate at any age.

I am accepting that the schemes are not comparable and it is because of that that we are trying to reach a figure of the cost of levelling up. Does the Minister not agree that it is entirely dishonest for him and the Taoiseach not to admit that the figure would not be less than £150 million? If we only had that much honesty——

The Deputy is making a statement.

I am quite prepared to accept there is a problem but I deplore the people who try to make it an unsurmountable one. If any of the negotiators in Northern Ireland came up with a declaration in favour of unity, certainly social welfare benefits will not obstruct them.

Surely the Minister has some idea of the dimensions of the cost. All I am asking is whether the Minister accepts that the figure would not be less than £150 million. I will not argue further.

I always refrain from giving a figure when it may be a wrong one.

I challenge the Minister to dispute the £150 million figure.

Is the Minister not prepared to give an estimate?

The cost of unity my eye.

104.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare in relation to a recent magazine interview whether the British Government have at any time intimated that they would be prepared to subsidise social security in the context of a united country.

The answer is no.

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