Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 1972

Vol. 263 No. 12

County Management (Amendment) Bill, 1972: Second Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute:

Dáil Éireann declines to give a Second Reading to the Bill on the grounds that the appointment of rate collector should be made a function of the Local Appointments Commission under the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926 instead of making it merely an executive function under the County Managements Acts.

—(Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick (Cavan)).

Mr. Begley

There are a few matters I should like the Minister to clarify. He said that the posts will be filled on the basis of open competition, following advertisements in the public Press. I should like to know what kind of competition is envisaged by the Minister: is it an interview, an oral or a written examination? Will a certain standard of education be required? The Minister's statement on this point was so vague it was difficult to draw any definite conclusion from it.

Have the County Managers' Association been consulted about the new job they will get? I have a feeling this is a hot potato the county managers do not want. I am sure their association meet from time to time but we do not know what is their attitude to this proposal. No matter what any Member here may say, the Department of Local Government can put subtle pressure on county managers. This can be done in different ways.

I was chairman of Kerry County Council in 1967-68 and as such I had certain rights not granted to other councillors. As chairman I was able to inspect files and read the correspondence from Government Departments and in this way I could find out what was going on behind the scenes. On one file I was amazed to read a nice letter from the then Minister for Local Government, Mr. Kevin Boland, inquiring about a certain case and asking the manager to make a decision on the matter as early as possible. That was subtle pressure put on a county manager and it was done by a Minister of State.

Let us examine the procedure of appointment of rate collectors under the new system and see how the machinery will work. I presume an advertisement will be put in the newspapers. Immediately applicants will rush to the secretary's office to seek application forms; next, the applicants will go to their local councillors and ask them to do what they can to help in their applications. Human nature being what it is, the councillor in question will say he will do his best for everyone. As the appointment will refer to a certain locality, it is obvious that the successful applicant will have to be from the locality and will have to have local knowledge. The day of the competition arrives and all are under starter's orders. However, before this date arrives the vast majority of the applicants will have asked the political parties to make representations for them. This is why I was interested to know what kind of competition for the applicants is envisaged. Is it an oral competition, is it a written competition or what kind of competition is it?

I presume the type of competition the Minister has in mind is an oral one. That being so, the manager will set up an interview board on which will be staff officers, assistant engineers and others, all from other counties. That is the usual procedure. The applicants will come before that board and a decision will be arrived at. For argument sake, let us say a Mr. Molloy is appointed as rate collector. Let us say his appointment was on merit. What will happen when it is announced that such a person got the job? What interpretation will be put on it? The first question to be asked will be to which political party the successful applicant belongs. He could belong to any of the three parties but, for argument sake again, we shall say he is a Fine Gael man. Immediately—let the Minister have no doubt about this—all the councillors from other parties on that council will say that the man got the job through his political connections.

In that situation the finger of suspicion will be pointed at the manager, no matter who has been appointed. This in itself will cause friction in the council chamber. The Minister went so far in his brief as to say he wanted to take away from councillors the embarrassing situation they have been finding themselves in. I put it to him that managers will now find themselves in the same position and I should like forcefully to say that it is not fair to the managers to be put in that position.

Therefore, since the Minister took the trouble to introduce this Bill he should have gone the whole hog and either given the job to the LAC or adopted the system that has been working very successfully in some counties for some time. I am sure the Minister can find out easily how many counties successfully have been collecting the rates through their own offices. The percentage collection has been very high.

It is unfortunate that during the debate some Members, not from my party, took the opportunity to castigate councillors up and down the country, no matter to which party they belonged. I am quite sure that a great many Members of the House were at one time and still are members of local authorities. I am afraid it has become fashionable of late for certain people to knock public representatives, members of health boards, of harbour authorities and of urban and county councils, no matter what their politics have been. I should hate to have it go out from this House that we are wont to belittle such public representatives in this chamber. In my 12 years' experience as a local authority member I can say that 99.99 per cent of councillors have been men of integrity.

Getting back to the Bill, if the Minister is not coming across favourably to local authorities he has only himself to blame. A large proportion of the conflict now emerging between county councillors on the one hand and the Custom House and the Minister on the other could be and should be avoided. Up and down the country we have councils asking the Minister to receive deputations on different projects and it is unfortunate that the Minister, whether because of advice from civil servants or otherwise, has adopted a closed door attitude—he will not meet them. I take this opportunity to ask him to have another look——

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Molloy)

There is no truth whatsoever in the Deputy's suggestion. How many deputations have I met? I even went around to the regions and met local authorities on their home ground. Nobody has met more local authorities than I have since I became Minister.

Mr. Begley

The Minister refused to meet Kerry County Council on a number of occasions.

Mr. Molloy

Naturally I do not see every deputation.

Mr. Begley

How many deputations has the Minister refused to see in the past 12 months?

Mr. Molloy

I decide these things and I have been very generous in meeting deputations.

Mr. P. Belton

The Minister is like Deputy Begley. He got married and he is worried.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy has other problems.

Mr. Begley

Everybody has problems and the day we stop having them we will not be Members of this House. I was pointing out to the Minister that because of poor public relations in his Department he has been in conflict with local authorities. Perhaps this situation has evolved from decisions which councils have taken and which the Minister came along and reversed. I know this has nothing to do with the Bill but between refusing to meet deputations and reversing planning decisions things are not going too well between the two groups.

I would ask the Minister to go the whole hog. Half the heat would not have been engendered here if he gave this to the Local Appointments Commission or handed it over to the different councils to collect the rates through their offices. It has happened in the past, through no fault of the managers, that when they set up interview boards and appointed men whom they thought would keep their mouths closed, information has come out even before a decision has been reached that a certain person has been appointed by the board. Previously the officials of, say, Cork County Council and Kerry County Council would hardly ever meet but now with regional development boards, joint sheep-dipping committees, et cetera, there is a coming together and officials are as well known in neighbouring counties as in their own. I am worried that undue pressure will be put on the officials when they are known to be on a board. The managers will be in the cockpit now. They will bear the brunt of the criticism, no matter who is appointed. The Minister is being unfair to the managers. I would ask him to have a hard look at my argument. I do not want to be personal but I know that if a rate collector who happens, whether by coincidence or not, to belong to a political party is appointed, God nor man will not convince the councillors in that authority that it was not political patronage. If the Minister sees the wisdom of my argument, he should have a chat with the county managers and save them the embarrassment of having friction in their local councils.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I welcome the Bill and I congratulate the Minister for having taken this step, which is long overdue. We have now realised the situation in which councillors found themselves down through the years. I am sure that every county council will thank the Minister for introducing this Bill. It has taken from them a function which quite often placed them in an embarrassing situation.

Deputy Begley said this will put county managers in an impossible position. I believe that once you are attached and known to be attached to any political party, irrespective of whether an appointment is made by county councillors, county managers or the Local Appointments Commission, somebody will say you had political pull. I think the Minister has done the right thing in giving the power to the managers to make these appointments. It might not be feasible for the Local Appointments Commission to appoint a rate collector in Mayo, Sligo, or some other part of rural Ireland. The manager would have to have some knowledge and the man appointed would need to have some knowledge of the particular county. It might not be taken very well throughout the country if rate collectors were sent from Dublin. I am sure many people would object to this.

Dr. O'Donovan

I do not think that has been suggested at all. The Deputy's side of the House is bringing that in but there is no reason why it should not be confined to a county or a particular area.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): That might not be possible either.

Dr. O'Donovan

It is quite easy. It is done already on occasions.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I believe the Minister's decision is the right one and I think that county councils will welcome it. We have had many embarrassing situations in the past. I am not on a local authority but I have been canvassed on occasions by people who were looking for appointments in various counties. This is undesirable. Now appointments can be made on merit and I am sure that is the situation that will obtain from now on. I should like to put on record that rate collectors who have been appointed in the past have been as efficient even as those we will have appointed under the new system. It cannot be said that the right people were not appointed. Even so, there was that little doubt there. We are removing it now. Even in county councils where Fianna Fáil did not have a majority we heard the same accusation being made. I am sure all political parties welcome this Bill. I know they welcome it to a certain extent but Fine Gael would like the power to be given to the Local Appointments Commission. I think the Minister has made the right decision.

It has been said that the Minister refused to meet deputations. Since he took office I have met no Minister who is more willing to meet deputations. I am sure many people will agree with me on that. I am sure that on this issue any representations made to him were listened to sympathetically but there are certain difficulties to be overcome and I am sure the Minister weighed all the problems very carefully. I support the Bill. I am delighted it was brought in. I know this view will be shared by every county council. It cannot be said in future that certain groups appoint their own colleagues.

Mr. Cooney

This Bill has been introduced to remove what was commonly considered to be a rather scandalous position in so far as the appointment of rate collectors gave rise to rumours of corruption and graft and regretfully some of these rumours were based on fact. In so far as the Bill is designed to remove an abuse of that kind in public life it has to be welcomed. The Minister is kind in his speech when he refers to alleged abuses and malpractices which are reported in newspapers as being part of the system of appointment of rate collectors.

He is long enough in politics to know that there were abuses and malpractices. He talks of the scope for canvassing and unreasonable pressures that may be exercised on elected members, and as a member of a local authority I would be pleased to be relieved from these pressures.

However, in my local authority we took the step of relieving ourselves from these pressures by deciding to discontinue the appointment of rate collectors and arranged for the collection of rates through the office of the county council. This is something that was open to every local authority in Ireland to do. Some of them have done it and the reports from the counties where this particular system of collection is in force are encouraging.

The appointment of rate collectors is valued by many in politics as being a political weapon of some substance. Rate collectors are involved in the revision of electors lists, and this is a duty of high political import. If persons are put on the list whose entitlement to be there might be challenged or persons are left off whose entitlement to be on might be undoubted, one can see that a person evilly motivated politically, with the power of altering those lists, could do an immense amount of harm to one party or bring a lot of political benefit to another party. It is not in the nature of the Fianna Fáil Party willingly to give up the right to have control over the appointment to posts which have that political power.

The reality of the situation is that the Fianna Fáil Party by and large up and down the country have lost control of the local authorities. They do not have the power to appoint rate collectors and thereby have the power over something as important as the compiling of the electoral register. I have not the slightest doubt, having regard to the practice of local politics by the Fianna Fáil Party for many years, that if they had the continued control of the local authorities we would not see this Bill before the House. It amazes me that the Minister should unblushingly give as one of his reasons for the introduction of this Bill his desire to relieve local councillors from what he calls unreasonable pressures. If he is motivated in that way in relation to this Bill, this comparatively minor matter, it defies the imagination how he himself can continue in a position where he is subject not merely to unreasonable pressures but to unsustainable pressures, and I refer to his capacity as the arbiter of planning appeals.

Mr. Molloy

I have already stated that I shall be removing the power to decide planning appeals for myself as Minister.

Mr. P. Belton

It was suggested the last time——

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy is implying that if I do this I should do the other. I have already stated publicly that I am doing the other as well.

Mr. Cooney

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. We have been waiting for this move for a very long time. In fact, the Minister has now no choice but to make that move. He is coerced into it by reason of the recent High Court decision which compels him to reveal the technical advice given to him in making decisions on planning appeals. I have not the slightest doubt that it is the existence of that decision which has triggered the Minister's decision to dispose of his power.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy has a warped mind, because this was decided long before that recent decision which, I think, was made only last week.

Mr. Cooney

The decision may have been made a long time ago. I am not speaking of the judicial decision.

Mr. Molloy

Anyway the Deputy has his own views on what I say.

Mr. Cooney

I will have my own opinion for the simple reason that if the Minister was genuinely concerned about this unsustainable position which he keeps for himself he would have got rid of it literally years ago.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question of planning appeals does not relevantly arise on this Bill.

Mr. Cooney

With respect, Sir, one of the justifications for this Bill is stated to be unreasonable pressures which may be exerted on elected members. I believe it is apt to draw a comparison between that statement and the position in which the Minister sustains himself. However, I am glad the Minister is going to share this power. I would urge him for his own sake and for the sake of the good name of politics generally to share that power without any delay whatever, because there are matters pending which give rise to serious concern if they should fall to be decided by the Minister personally. The bona fides of his statement will be decided by the speed with which he brings in this new piece of legislation.

I do not quarrel with the principle behind this Bill, but on this side of the House we are somewhat apprehensive of making the simple change from a reserve function to an executive function, and the amendment which has been tabled by Deputy Fitzpatrick goes a bit further and makes the appointment not just one to be made on a local basis but to be made by the Local Appointments Commission. It is still, of course, an executive function in so far as the county manager will be the person to make the appointment.

The post of rate collector might be considered somewhat of an anachronism in this day and age, because it is a hangover from the old poor law system. I am inclined to the view that the appointment of collectors as such to go through the countryside collecting is no longer necessary. I would quote two counties, Westmeath and Cork, as examples of how the collection can be effected in an impersonal yet humane and efficient way without the necessity of appointing local individual collectors. Some years ago in County Westmeath a vacancy occurred and as a result of an offer made to a councillor—it was a bribe which was offered to and rejected by him and reported by him to the council—the council decided that if this scheme could give rise to such offers, then it should not be tolerated. Therefore, the council took a decision not to appoint any further collectors but to carry out the collection through the office. I am glad to say that this decision was implemented and is now working efficiently. In the first year or two after it was implemented the percentage collection was lower than that being achieved by the existing rate collectors, but that position is now rectifying itself and the percentage being achieved by the office is now on a par with that achieved by the rate collectors. The actual cost of the collection of rates in terms of so much in the £ is less than the cost of collecting by rate collectors. That was also the experience in County Cork. There is no reason why, if this system works in two dissimilar counties like Westmeath and Cork, it would not work on a national basis. As the law stands, a person has to be named as a collector, but there is a vast difference if that person is a permanent official of the local authority or a person brought in specially to do this job.

A further difficulty in giving a warrant to an individual who is not an established officer and not subject to the normal checks and restraints that such an officer would be subject to is that the powers conferred by the warrant could be abused. When the rate collector gets his warrant for the collection of rates he is placed in a very independent position. He is virtually untouchable and he is master, subject to certain statutory checks as to the level of rate collection achieved, of his own affairs as to how he goes about making his collection. There can be abuses which can be difficult to uncover and when uncovered, difficult to deal with.

In Athlone a few years ago there was a rate collector, who is now dead. This collector was being pressed to improve the collection. He chose as his target for achieving this improvement a local factory which had never been in default and which was the single biggest ratepayer in the town. To show his contempt for the County Manager in his effort to improve the collection, this factory was subject to the levy of distress in order to improve the collection. He closed the front gates and brought operations to a standstill. He was entitled to do this under the powers arising from his warrant. He was suspended by the manager and an action was brought in the High Court arising out of this, and the manager was upheld. That was in relation to suspension for questions of staff discipline. The point is that there was nothing illegal in the rate collector's action in attempting to levy distress on this factory. It highlights the point I am making that the warrant gives unduly wide powers to individuals who, if they care to use them, can do so in a way that could cause hardship to ratepayers.

It has been suggested that the individual collector represents a more humane method of collection because, being a local from the area under his charge, he knows the individual circumstances of people. There is merit in that argument, provided the person appointed is well-disposed. Equally, collections through an office can be carried out in just as humane a manner. Our experience in County Westmeath is that this is what happens. If there is a case of temporary hardship due to a farmer having his premises locked because of brucellosis or TB reactors or some other temporary difficulty altering his financial position and his ability to pay rates, invariably the county council, whether the collection is through an office or by means of a rate collector, give time for payment and no hardship is caused. Many people prefer the impersonal method of payment and the impersonal way of making payment through the post by postal remittances or cheques. More and more people in rural Ireland have bank accounts now and find it easy to pay through the office. Collection through the office, if it is expanded on a county basis would involve officials being placed at strategic points in the county and this could help to overcome any doubts one might have about the system of collection at a central point being efficient.

Another argument is some times raised against office collection and the compilation of electoral registers and lists of valuations for revision. These matters have to be attended to. In rural Ireland they are attended to by the rate collector who gets an extra fee for his work on the electoral register, but nothing extra in relation to the revision of valuations. I am subject to correction on that point. Where there is no rate collector, somebody has to be employed to carry out this work. In County Westmeath this work has to be done by collectors from adjoining areas or by retired collectors in their own areas. This involves expense. This adds to the cost of office collection. It may bring the total above the old cost of collecting through a collector. There are other officials in the Council who could be used for this purpose. Home assistance officers could be seconded for this particular purpose on an ad hoc basis. If the position is that officials are placed at strategic locations throughout a county they could be put in charge of the revision of the register of electors as part of their job and they could also be instructed to watch revisions of valuations.

Revision of valuations is very important. It would be a simple matter to put a legal obligation on an occupier to notify the local authority of any change of ownership. It is expecting too much, possibly, to expect an occupier to notify a local authority of a change of user or an extension of premises which might lead to an upward revision of valuation. By reason of the requirement to obtain planning permission and the inducement to apply for a grant all extensions to premises come within the knowledge of the council and can be listed for revision. When there is a change of ownership it would be a simple matter legally to make it obligatory on the person succeeding to property by devolution or purchase to notify, as one of the requirements to perfect his title, the local authority that he has succeeded. This would keep the valuation lists up-to-date. That requirement does not exist at the moment. Often there is a family transfer which is not known to the rate collector and the valuation might not be revised for many years after the change of ownership. If that change in ownership were known at the time it took place, or if there was an obligation to make it known to the council, that might have an important effect in regard to the rating liability in so far as one can take an example of a man with three or four holdings who decides to transfer one or two of them to his son. The groupings are then different. If they are to the advantage of the ratepayer, he will notify the local authority so that he can get the relevant remissions but, if the contrary is the case, he will not notify the local authority and the Central Fund is thereby liable to continue paying a subsidy to the local authority which it might not otherwise have to pay.

Irrespective of this, the Minister might consider introducing some measure to compel notification by persons of their succession to property. Incidentally, that would remove the requirement of the rate collector in regard to watching valuations for the purpose of having them revised, and would remove one of the arguments against taking the collections away from the individual collectors. Where collections through the office have been introduced the experience has been that they have worked satisfactorily. The system is efficient, cheap and humane. I do not think you can get any more desirable criteria to justify any course of action.

In default of that I would urge the Minister to consider the Local Appointments Commission for this post. It is a minor post—I concede that—and it is not normally the type of appointment which would be made by the Local Appointments Commission. It is common knowledge that there is a bit of a backlog or a jam in the Local Appointments Commission system and that some appointments are in arrears. This could be an argument not to send more appointments to the commission but this does not take account of the principle. The answer to that is to revise the system so that it can deal with the demands made on it.

The other argument is that this is a comparatively minor post. It may be, but I have already indicated that its political import is immense. In order to reassure all parties that they will not be subject to any political pressures in spite of this change, the Minister could do a great deal to vouch for his bona fides in making this change by accepting our amendment and having the appointments made through the Local Appointments Commission. Bearing in mind that more counties might be encouraged to adopt the office collection, the numbers that will fall to be appointed from time to time will decrease, possibly, and the demands made on the Local Appointments Commission will not be serious. It would have the added benefit of reassuring the public and the politicians and the applicants that the old political taint which so discoloured these appointments in the past has been finally and completely removed.

Mr. Coughlan

I am in complete agreement with the method of appointing rate collectors as now envisaged by the Minister. Those of us who have been in public life for any length of time know the manoeuvring that goes on when a rate collectorship becomes vacant. Whatever motives have prompted the Minister to take this action at this late stage are no affair of mine. Better late than never. Those of us who have had any contact with local government know what has been going on down along the line. Whatever political party could manage to get a majority on a local authority outside of the boroughs immediately mustered their forces and the tug-of-war began between the party in power and the others. There the trouble started.

Naturally enough, canvassing went on. That is a normal, natural thing to do. When anything has to be decided by a vote, I do not see anything wrong with people asking for support provided the person is qualified in every respect to hold the position. It is a responsible position, as we all know. We know that backward men and men who erred were appointed and paid the penalty. Whether it was the result of a bad appointment I do not know. Other appointments such as appointments as rent collectors in the boroughs are made by the county or city manager. In his wisdom he brings in independent men from outside his own authority. This is the normal practice, and a good practice. The applicants are interviewed and questioned. The propriety of the questions asked is another thing. In 99 per cent of the cases the end product has been proved right.

I have seen this in relation to appointments in the city I come from. The candidates come from areas from which they are entitled to come and they are interviewed by an interview board. The secretary makes up the mark given to him by each member of the board and the board then assess the marks in their hotel, or wherever they are, in private. In assessing each individual they take many things into consideration. The standard of education is laid down and then there is a general knowledge test and a test on the approach of each applicant to the job. There have been misfits in different jobs. I know that rate collectors and rent collectors and gas collectors have been appointed and, instead of creating a pleasant and helpful atmosphere, some of them made things very awkward, and difficult indeed, when people met with hardship from time to time.

I am confused about this. In the appointment of rate collectors prior to this, in the boroughs the county manager had the right to select his interview board and, on the recommendation of that board, the appointment was made. If similar circumstances are to apply to the county manager I see nothing wrong with that.

It is time that there was a change from the tug-o-war system that has been going on for far too long. The rate collector has many responsibilities and there are some collectors who do not pay as much attention as they should to these responsibilities. I refer in particular to the compilation of the voters' list. Very often rate collectors sub-let this work to such people as temporary clerks in county councils. The point is that these lists are compiled in a haphazard way with the result that up to the day of polling we find people telephoning us to inquire why they are not on the voters' list although they have been living in a particular area for, perhaps, ten years. I am sure every Deputy has had such experiences. There must be a more rigid approach on the part of county and city managers in this regard. The right to vote is a right that people cherish.

Occasionally, too, one finds a rate collector who is lacking in cooperation. Some rate collectors, in their quest for poundage, harrass people coming up to poundage date. Of course, if they had their ear to the ground they would be aware of such problems as unemployment which would be likely to occur in an area. We overcame that in Limerick city by accepting the rates through the instalment system. Ratepayers are given a card which they present every week or every month as they wish to pay. It is only right that there should be such a facility for the ratepayers especially in view of the very high rates at present. This year, in particular, with the introduction of the new health services, ratepayers will be dealt a bodyblow from which they will not recover for a long time.

It has been said here that the cheque book was the order of the day regarding the appointment of rate collectors. I have been a local government representative for more than 20 years and I can say that never once have I heard a mention of money in this regard. However, if there is any man in public life who has had such experience, I say to him that he is not fitted for public life. It is his duty to expose any such practice and to expose any persons who have been involved in any way in such corruption so that they might be charged accordingly.

Mr. L'Estrange

Hear, hear.

Mr. Coughlan

Of course, there was canvassing and there have been many occasions on which I was called from my bed at a late hour at night by canvassers. They must have been amateurs because anyone with experience would know that they would get no satisfaction if they called at an unreasonable hour.

Mr. P. Belton

They might be prepared to buy a few half-one's, though.

Mr. Coughlan

The Deputy might advocate that since he might profit from it.

Mr. P. Belton

So would the Deputy have profited from it at one time.

Mr. Coughlan

That is the case no longer, thank God, because I realised the futility of trying to save one's soul and being a publican at the same time. In any case, there would be no harm in an appointee being hospitable in that respect. Socially, it is a good practice. It augurs well for good relations between the rate collector and the public representative and hardly a day passes but we find it necessary to call on rate collectors in order to have something done. I do not know whether the Dublin people have this experience.

Dr. O'Donovan

We do not know them in Dublin.

Mr. Coughlan

Any man who is not prepared to expose any corruption of which he may be aware is not fit to be a public representative.

While we may make representations to county or city managers from time to time for the waiver or remission of rates in hardship cases, these managers have no immediate function in such matters. They can do no more than ask a rate collector if he is in a position to comply with a request for waiver or remission. Such power should be given to city or county managers. There are rate collectors who are never prepared to give in but who will try to ensure that they get their poundage at all costs. Therefore, I welcome the Bill. One might say that the area I represent is a "dual-purpose" area. In the city there is one method of appointment while there is another in the rural area. I have had more than 20 years' experience of both systems and I am fully behind the procedure that has been adopted by the city managers. I am glad that the Minister is now conferring on the county managers a similar authority. From now on the tugging and politics can be left to one side and persons, regardless of whether they belong to the underprivileged, the privileged or over privileged classes, will jump the same fence together. At long last we will have the right people to do the work but let it be done in a humane way and outside of politics. This will result in a happy ratepaying community. They will then know exactly that if there is any hardship or anything like that and they are unable to meet the rates immediately they will get favourable consideration. I want to impress on the Minister the need for leaving the last word with the city or county manager and not just to the rate collector, which is the position at the moment.

Mr. P. Belton

The Minister said in his opening speech: "As things now stand there is scope for canvassing and unreasonable pressures may be exerted on the elected members". This seems to me somewhat naïve because I know of no business or occupation in which there are not pressures. There is nepotism everywhere. There are pressures in the business world. There are pressures in the professions. Auctioneers tout for business. While architects may not advertise they certainly let their names be known. Even in the Civil Service there are pressures where promotions are concerned. Does the Minister want to wrap county councillors up in cotton wool? He also said that there are abuses and malpractices in the present system, but the Minister did not spell these out.

As I say, there are pressures everywhere. The businessmen will have up to 20 agents calling on him and they will tell him that they knew his uncle, or were at school with his son or were friendly with some relative, in order to get business. It is stupid of the Minister to say he is against canvassing. Do not all of us canvass for votes under our democratic system of election to this House? Does not the greatest of all canvasses take place in Seanad elections? What happens there is worse than anything that happens in the case of a rate collector.

We are all agreed the change is necessary, but the change must be for the betterment of the system. Where we disagree with the Minister is that we think appointments should be made by the Local Appointments Commission rather than by a local body or the manager. If a man is selecting staff for his own business he will go to whoever is in charge and ask him if he can recommend staff; the board then listens to the recommendations and make up their minds. Very often it is not the man with the degree who will prove to be the best. Nine times out of ten the reverse is the case. I know men who were in the C class in school and they are now employing men who were in the A class. The best man should always be picked. He should not get the appointment just because he supports a particular political party. No businessman could run his business effectively if he made appointments on that basis. Politics, religion, the golf club, the rugby club or anything else do not count. He picks the best man and the better the man he picks the less work he himself will have to do.

Deputy Desmond welcomed the Bill and he lacerated county councillors. They were, apparently, all corrupt. Perhaps he makes an exception of one party. I do not agree with Deputy Desmond. I have never been a member of a local authority but I have had many relatives in local authorities. Deputy Desmond is a member of a local authority. What he recounted were all the bad things that happened. He forgot all the good things. He exaggerated one side and ignored the other. A group of employers talking together will discuss bad employees because bad employees hurt them. They forget the good employees. A group of employees will talk about bad employers and forget the good ones. There must be a proper balance. You get good employers and bad employers everywhere. You get good and bad workers everywhere. You even get good and bad trade union officials. Trade unions have had their troubles too.

I believe that the good far outweighs the bad in every sphere of activity. The suggestion was made that the rates demands could be sent out from an office in the same way as ESB bills are sent out. I am familiar with Dublin County Council and I know that their rate collectors are appointed by the old system of voting. They have had no failures but, on one occasion, when there was a commission there were no fewer than three failures. The proposal now is that the city manager rather than the council should make the appointments.

The Minister said that there was something printed in the papers about the abuses. In regard to the report in the Sunday Independent, I should like that person to examine his own conscience about this. As far as I am concerned, in Dublin Corporation the system I have referred to has worked. There may have been failures of which I am not aware.

The third system may work. If the Minister were to agree to it now I would not be that much against it. It is the system that most businesses would favour, namely, the phasing out of what is there; as persons retire, bring in the system and build up the council staff to collect the money, something like the system in the ESB. One objection I have to it is that in the case of the ESB, for instance, there is no competition, just a red tape situation. The demand is issued and the date for payment is prescribed and the money must be paid. Where a rate collector is employed he can use his judgment as to the financial position of the ratepayer and can assess his financial difficulties.

I do not accept the Minister's explanation of the reason for the proposed change at this time. We are told by the Minister that the proposed scheme is better than the system which has been in operation for 40 years, during 30 years of which Fianna Fáil have been in office. If the Minister were to tell us that he is a Minister and that he is changing the system because it is wrong that there should be political appointments and if every other Minister were to do the same, I would say that that was fair enough, let us get a proper system; let us get a system to be operated by all Departments. Let us have the same thing done in the Office of Public Works. Let us have the same system in Aer Lingus. In the case of Aer Lingus, recommendations are not allowed but that does not mean that the Minister cannot make recommendations. A person has only to walk through the gates of Aer Lingus to see the chairmen of Fianna Fáil cumainn in various jobs.

There is one reason for the proposed change which it is easy to discover. On the council of county councils there are 36 Fine Gael members, 17 Fianna Fáil members and eight Labour members. That is the sole reason for the proposed change. Fianna Fáil cannot do now what they could do years ago. The opportunity for jobbery in that section has gone and, therefore, the system must be changed. They think they can still do it in other departments and in that case they hold on to the opportunity for jobbery. In Aer Lingus you will see chairmen of Fianna Fáil cumainn. The appointments in this House are completely political. As Deputy Oliver Flanagan said the other day, one ray of hope is that if Fianna Fáil want to change the system now they must be sure they will lose the next local elections. The Minister looked to the appointments commission and said: "I have not enough control over them but the city manager is different; he is a man who has to be in touch with my Department." I can tell you the politics of the city manager of Dublin. So can any Deputy from any part of the country.

Mr. Coughlan

The city manager of Dublin was in Limerick for a long time and there have been many city and county managers and I never knew any of their politics.

Mr. P. Belton

I know it.

Mr. L. Belton

It is well known in Dublin now. There may be a change of heart.

Mr. P. Belton

It is an easier way of doing it.

Mr. L'Estrange

See what builders have got favours in Dublin and you will soon know.

Mr. Coughlan

I am only going on my experience.

Mr. L'Estrange

It is well known in Dublin.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Belton, without interruption.

Mr. P. Belton

I am not saying it is happening. What I do say is that if you meet a person every day or meet him often you have a better chance of getting something done than if you do not meet him at all and the manager will meet the Minister more often than the appointments commission will meet the Minister.

Dr. O'Donovan

I have been trying to get him to do a simple job, to build a swimming pool in Rathmines and, although he has promised, he has not done it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing with rate collectors.

Mr. P. Belton

Under the old system, having regard to the membership of local authorities at the moment, the chances of Fianna Fáil members being rate-collectors are very small. There is a greater chance of getting Fianna Fáil rate collectors through the city and county managers. As mentioned by Deputy Cooney and many other Deputies, if the rate collector happens to be a Fianna Fáil supporter there is a great chance of the register being compiled in favour of Fianna Fáil rather than against them. In my opinion the Minister should copy the straightforward business. Let a board decide that there is another man required, let the manager or management recommend two or three and let the board decide, taking all things into account. Let the city manager and the council nominate three persons. Let the names go forward to the Local Appointments Commission, the commission to select one person. I see nothing wrong with that system. That is the system adopted in business. Businessmen are not interested in politics; they are interested in getting the most suitable person. Let the manager and the council have a say, without voting, in selecting the three names to go forward to the Local Appointments Commission. This will ensure that the candidate will be from the area in question. I would like a four years' residence qualification to be included.

The manager has too much work and too much responsibility. There has been great pressure on councillors. If more work is given to managers the pressures will be increased. In Dublin there is no council to push the manager. The manager can do what he likes. He can meet residents' associations if he likes or he can say he is too busy. They are now making the manager a director. At present a manager in any city or county has a tremendous amount of confidential information and a tremendous amount of work to do. It is not so much the hours he puts in as the decisions he has to make. If you add another task, you take up more of his time, worry him more and put too much pressure on him. Planning permissions and building are all under his control and now it is suggested that we add to this load. Take the case of Dublin city where the manager must do all these things——

Mr. Coughlan

With all respect to Deputy Belton, I wish we had that manager back in Limerick. He is the best county manager——

Mr. P. Belton

I did not say anything against anyone but I am saying that you are putting additional work on him and the more work you give him the less he can do in meeting people he should be meeting. That is logic.

Mr. Coughlan

He is a man of many parts.

Mr. P. Belton

We have heard discussion of political approaches and use of political influence and so on but at least it was done openly. Now you have a manager—or it may be any man, a member of the appointments committee; I mentioned manager because that is the person mentioned by the Minister—who will be under this pressure. Apart from political influence, if it is in a golf club, a rugby club or any other club he will be approached by somebody to do something. He will have the choice of agreeing or putting the matter out of his mind altogether. If he gives the job to the son of a friend of his he is accused straight away. I am pointing out the weakness of one individual; if the matter is put to a board of six or seven, the chance of any one person knowing all of them privately is very small. I do not have a job going but about ten people approach me about it, whether people in the political sphere or in the sporting sphere. Friends of your friends will do it and then you have to make your mind up. If you bend you are accused and you get into trouble. A committee of six or seven who sit, no matter how it is comprised, will not be subject to the same pressure as one individual, the manager. Two heads are better than one. Not alone will six or seven people think better than one, but the chance of any person influencing all of them is more remote.

I should like to see a system which would be fair all around. I said we favoured a change, if the system could be improved, but we disagree with the manager proposal for various reasons, some of which I have mentioned. This should be done by an appointments commission, either the present one or another one which would be set up. The candidate should be living in the area for four years and, above all, he should be an employee of the council concerned. Many Deputies said that this is a very small, part-time job. In many cases this is true but in Dublin it is a very well-paid job. Some are paid higher than many officials in the council.

Mr. L'Estrange

More than Dáil Deputies.

Mr. P. Belton

The candidate should be selected from the council because when people are entering any post or business they look ahead to see what the future offers. If it is known that rate collectors can be selected only from council staff there will be more and better recruits for that council. I ask the Minister not to put pressure on a manager. I was not speaking against any manager but I think this would put too much pressure on any manager, particularly a manager in a council the size of those in Dublin or Cork. That would be asking too much from one man. I suggest the matter should be left to the Local Appointments Commission.

Dr. O'Donovan

I intend to speak very briefly on this measure. It was suggested by Deputy Flanagan yesterday that the Minister came into the House yesterday wearing white gloves. I was under the impression that the Minister came in as a white sepulchre because the only reason this Bill has been brought in is that Fianna Fáil have lost the majority in the great bulk of the county councils and therefore are not able to make the appointments any longer.

Mr. Molloy

We never had it.

Dr. O'Donovan

Come off it. Does the Minister not remember when they took every position in Limerick County Council, when the late Jimmy Collins——

Mr. Molloy

You can name individual county councils.

Mr. L'Estrange

In Galway they would not even allow an Opposition man on a sub-committee.

(Interruptions.)

Dr. O'Donovan

I agree with Deputy Flanagan. This is part of the game of centralisation. The Government should have got enough of centralisation from the regional health boards for two Governments. When the next Government comes in after Fianna Fáil—which will be shortly— they will have learned a lesson. We shall see very soon when rates come to be struck what this will cost.

Mr. L'Estrange

They will be up by £1 in the £1 for health alone.

Dr. O'Donovan

Exactly. I have only one objection to these appointments being made by the county manager and it is that the county managers are, in fact, public servants. It would be much better if Deputy Fitzpatrick's suggestion were adopted and that the appointments be made through the Local Appointments Commission. Despite all the clap-trap we heard yesterday to the effect that the Local Appointments Commission could only advertise jobs for the whole country, that is all nonsense. They can always provide that candidates must be from a certain area, which may be even part of a county. They can say that only candidates who are resident in the area will be eligible. There is no difficulty about this and the talk we heard was all my eye and Betty Martin. It is typical of what goes on in this House. It is very bad for the reputation of the House when this type of argument is made. Such people as read the records—and fewer and fewer are reading the records of the debates in the House—are intelligent and get the message that tomfoolery goes on in the House and that Members will say anything to make a political point.

Mr. Coughlan

Fine Gael broke their promise to us on three or four occasions.

Dr. O'Donovan

I hope not about the appointment of rate collectors.

Mr. E. Collins

I thought Deputy Coughlan said these things do not happen in Limerick.

Mr. Coughlan

I said there was no such thing as cheque books in circulation but there was an arrangement——

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman (Mr. Tunney)

I would ask Deputies to allow Deputy O'Donovan to continue without interruption.

Mr. Coughlan

I want to clear the record. There was a gentlemen's agreement arrived at in Limerick County Council but Fine Gael ratted on it——

Mr. L'Estrange

That is bunkum. I should like to hear the two sides to the story.

Acting Chairman

The Chair would like to hear what Deputy O'Donovan has to say.

Dr. O'Donovan

There was a suggestion here today that a candidate at an interview would be asked what political party he belonged to. I do not believe this would happen but that would not prevent it being known——

Mr. E. Collins

The Minister's naïveté does not go down with us.

Dr. O'Donovan

I suspect this is an effort to centralise more power in the Custom House. Perhaps I have a suspicious mind——

Mr. Molloy

If the Deputy spoke about the Local Appointments Commission there might be some truth in what he has said.

Dr. O'Donovan

Does the Minister mean who picks the selection board?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Creed

Is the Minister making the allegation——

Mr. Molloy

I did not say——

Acting Chairman

I suggest that we eliminate this crosstalk and listen to Deputy O'Donovan. Any other Deputy who has not yet offered to speak will get the opportunity to do so later. I do not think any progress will be made if we have a continuation of this question and answer crosstalk.

Dr. O'Donovan

There is a suggestion there is conflict between the Minister and the local authorities. When Deputy Begley was speaking today we got the impression that, in a county where there is a minority of Fianna Fáil county councillors, the Minister will not receive any deputations from them——

Mr. Molloy

They want to exert undue pressures on me.

Dr. O'Donovan

I take it the Minister is as tough as his colleague, Deputy O'Malley, and that he is well able to stand on his own feet.

Mr. L'Estrange

He is as tough as Deputy Blaney.

Dr. O'Donovan

I do not say that everything that is done in Dublin is right but I do not know a single rate collector in the city. I get the demand for my rates through the post and I pay them through the post. If a rate collector called on me to collect rates I should fall backwards in astonishment. I understand the method of appointment is by promotion from the staff within the corporation, although I do not say this from my own knowledge. It would be a good idea to adopt that system and this would not prevent suitable people being appointed. I realise that in the country rate collectors have to call on farmers and that, for instance, local knowledge is very valuable. Yesterday Deputy Clinton referred to "academic knowledge". Nobody is suggesting rate collectors should be appointed because of their academic knowledge. In fact, if they were high-class academics they would be quite unsuitable for the post and nobody would dream of appointing them.

Mr. E. Collins

There are so little employment opportunities for academics they might have to apply for this work.

Dr. O'Donovan

I hope they would not be appointed. Academics are abstract thinkers. Someone like myself is not a genuine academic. The fact that I am interested in practical affairs immediately rules me out. Proper academics are in the upper atmosphere.

Mr. Coughlan

Who has the Deputy in mind?

Dr. O'Donovan

I have in mind in particular pure mathematicians, the men who really think; I am also thinking of pure philosophers. As Aristotle said, they are the men who have the happy life. People have different ways of enjoying themselves. All of us heard Deputy Coughlan speak and it was obvious he loves people calling to see him and chatting to him——

Mr. Coughlan

I live with my people.

Dr. O'Donovan

Some of us do not get so much enjoyment in being interviewed about various matters. When the Minister is concluding, will he guarantee us that he will not intrude on this matter in any way? It does not surprise me that Deputy Collins is laughing. There has been a custom of long-standing here that when a Minister makes a promise to the House he keeps it and until I have proof to the contrary I am prepared to believe that is still operative. No matter what I may say about Fianna Fáil in the course of debate, on the whole Ministers are men of their word. When the Minister is concluding, I hope he will give a promise that he will not intrude on this matter. If he makes a general rule on some matter that is all right with me or if he lays down a law in the Custom House about how the job is to be done that is a different matter.

Mr. Molloy

There is no need for a promise. It is implicit in the system I am recommending. The Minister cannot interfere in this; he is not involved in it, one way or the other.

Dr. O'Donovan

May I ask the Minister to make the promise? He may think there is nothing in it, but I am asking him to give that promise to the House.

Mr. Molloy

If the Deputy means I should make a personal promise to him——

Dr. O'Donovan

Not to me, to the House.

Mr. Molloy

If the Deputy means that I will not interfere with the appointment of rate collectors, that is the easiest promise to make.

Dr. O'Donovan

That is not what I asked the Minister.

Mr. Molloy

There is no question of my being involved in the appointment of rate collectors.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Deputies are speaking from experience. I am speaking from experience during the last 20 years. I am speaking of the type of board the Minister is going to set up. The right man will come out every time.

Mr. Molloy

I do not set up the board. The manager does that.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I am not saying every manager is to blame but I am speaking from experience.

Dr. O'Donovan

To be fair to Deputy Fitzpatrick, he said reform was long overdue but he went on to say that the Minister had done the right thing. We will have to wait and see if the Minister has done the right thing. I want the Minister to make the promise. I am not objecting to the Minister interrupting me, but there is no use in his saying that is the easiest promise to make. I want the Minister to do it formally when he is concluding the debate.

Mr. Molloy

It does not even arise.

Dr. O'Donovan

It was said here that appointments can be made on merit. Of course, we have heard of good rate collectors having been appointed. That has been the position generally, but a man does not need to be a genius to be a good rate collector. A complaint was made here about the poundage day business and about how the poundage increases rapidly for the small percentage of uncollected rates left at a certain date. Of course this poundage can be achieved by rate collectors paying in the outstanding amount themselves and then collecting it afterwards as best they can. My point is that it is all wrong to have this game of a sudden ditch which some people would find half a mile wide.

Mr. Coughlan

A double ditch.

Dr. O'Donovan

I should prefer, like Deputy Fitzpatrick whose amendment I support, if these appointments were put into the hands of the LAC. It seems to me to be the appropriate way of doing it. I do not believe in this rubbish we heard about having to advertise posts all over the country. The LAC can do as they like. A county manager is only an individual but the LAC are composed of three commissioners. The Minister may say he has some influence in the LAC because one of his officers is a commissioner. That did not exist when I was around but I think the Minister's secretary is usually a member of the commission and, of course, the Ceann Comhairle is the chairman. However, it is not they who do the job. It is done by a selection board appointed by them. They can arrange to have the interviews locally and the posts advertised locally so that only local applicants will be interviewed. There is do difficulty whatsoever about it.

Mr. P. Brennan

I do not suppose I would be inclined to lead a protest march or anything like that but I can say that I am glad that the Minister has brought this short Bill before the House to iron out this problem. I do not for a moment agree with the Fine Gael amendment. There are a couple of reasons why I am glad the Minister has thought it worthwhile to bring this short measure before us now. I hope that in the near future, this side of Christmas, he will bring in another short measure to right a small injustice of which he and I know.

Mr. L'Estrange

We would be interested to know what it is.

Mr. P. Brennan

It is a matter relevant to my constituency.

Acting Chairman

If it is not relevant to the Bill it may not be discussed here.

Dr. O'Donovan

Is the Minister trying to get him back into the party?

Mr. E. Collins

A couple of people are being rehabilitated in the party at the moment.

Mr. P. Brennan

I am glad of the change proposed in the Bill. I am glad that rate collectors are to be appointed in the same way as rent collectors and other such minor posts.

Mr. L'Estrange

Minor? They are better than the Dáil.

Mr. P. Brennan

I am not in the habit of interrupting Deputies and I should be obliged if Deputies kept silent while I am making my contribution. There are a couple of reasons why I think that it is in order that these appointments should be made by managers as is the case in the matter of rent collectors. The value of these posts may vary from county to county. In my county the job is worth £1,000 or £1,100, not a very colossal salary by present day standards. In Wicklow promotion within the rate collectors' group occurs. There are a number of rate collectors whose salaries vary and we agreed some years ago to allow a system of promotion. We were in the minority on Wicklow County Council and anyone leaning towards Fianna Fáil had not a hope of promotion. However, the position has been satisfactory since. I do not think the county manager in Wicklow is a man who goes out of his way to create friends. I never regarded him as being a great supporter of mine, but I accept him as an honest man who does a good job and I am quite happy to leave this to him. He will be able to set up a board for the appointment of collectors and I think such a board would be a good one. I cannot understand the attitude of Deputy Fitzpatrick who intervened, as I understand it, to say that a man appointed as county manager could be got at by local politicians.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I spoke from long and bitter experience.

Mr. P. Brennan

I cannot imagine the LAC appointing a county manager who would then be subject to political pressure at local level. Such a man should not have been appointed. If we have confidence in the LAC to give us good county managers, county secretaries and county engineers, we should in turn have confidence in those men to fill vacancies impartially.

Dr. O'Donovan

If I may intervene for a moment, I should like to tell the Deputy that I was friendly with the secretary of the Wicklow Board of Health and he told me that this kind of practice never occurred in Wicklow. There are decent people in Wicklow. However, it occurs in others counties.

Mr. P. Brennan

I am talking about the system as it operates in my constituency. As far as the new system is concerned I am quite happy to leave it as the Minister suggests. I have seen no real abuses in County Wicklow.

Dr. O'Donovan

You have an outstanding county manager in County Wicklow.

Mr. P. Brennan

Yes, I give him that credit. He is no friend of mine and I do not think he would want to be regarded as my friend. He does a good job. Even if the person who succeeded was not a supporter of mine it would not worry me an awful lot. I would be quite happy if the thing was done above board. That is why I support the Bill.

Last night charges and counter-charges were made. Fine Gael speakers charged that in counties where Fianna Fáil had a majority Fianna Fáil supporters got the jobs. This is something we must accept. I will not deny that this happened.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

Could we have Deputy Brennan without the fireside chat?

Mr. P. Brennan

I was, for a number of years, a member of a local authority that was divided three ways. Fianna Fáil had six or seven members, Labour had seven or eight and the rest were Fine Gael and the usual Independent pro-Fine Gael. When we came to appoint a rate collector members of all three parties voted for people who were supporters of theirs. I never saw Fine Gael in County Wicklow supporting a Fianna Fáil cumann secretary or a cumann chairman, at the beginning anyway. At the tail-end perhaps. I must confess that whenever we had to decide we nearly always came down on the side of the Labour nominee. I do not know why, but we did. That is not to say that over the years I did not at some stage support a Fine Gael person. There is no point in making the charge that Fianna Fáil are the only party to do this. Fine Gael would do it, and so would Labour, if they had the majority on the county council. Maybe it was not too wrong because if what has been said here is true, that the qualification necessary was membership of a Fianna Fáil cumann, I want to say that since I left the council, and due to the colossal amount of work I put into my constituency and organisational work, the Fianna Fáil Party increased its representation on the council from seven to ten. I hope God will forgive me for it.

Mr. L'Estrange

Is that independent Fianna Fáil or pure Fianna Fáil?

Mr. P. Brennan

There was one, an independent. He has since joined Fianna Fáil.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Deputy will be Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Fine Arts before long. He is wending his way back. There must be a general election coming very shortly.

Mr. P. Brennan

Quite recently we had the appointment of a rate collector in County Wicklow. There were a number of people seeking the support of the Fianna Fáil group. If this was the qualification there was one person head and shoulders over everybody else as a worker within the Fianna Fáil organisation. He was a young man with a young family who was prepared to give not a day on polling day but a week if necessary if he was needed by the organisation. He did not get the support of the Fianna Fáil Party. In fact, he only got one vote. Maybe it was because he was supposed to be a friend of mine.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. P. Brennan

If any man deserved the support of the Fianna Fáil Party it was this fellow and that was well-known to the councillors and to the Fianna Fáil Party in this House. I do not know whether it was because of his friendship with me or whether there was some other reason.

I do not know what influenced the Minister to bring in this Bill. It certainly was not anything that happened in County Wicklow. The only thing that comes to mind is the skulduggery that went on in County Dublin earlier in the year when there was an unholy alliance of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil to dish out fine jobs on a tit-for-tat basis. The little fellows, the Labour fellows, were out. This is the real danger at local level, that the big parties would come together. There is no harm, I believe, in one party, if they have the majority, giving the appointments to their own people but it is wrong when you have two parties, like Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, coming together to dish out jobs to their friends because they are not prepared to take the chance of going into the council chamber and putting up their nominees. They had to make sure the right people got the jobs and the only way they could do that was by having an alliance and sharing them out tit-for-tat. I have a funny feeling that is what influenced the Minister to bring about this change. Whatever it was I welcome the Bill.

Mr. E. Collins

It is agreed by all sides that reform is necessary but I am very disappointed by the tone of the Minister's speech. He denigrates the role which the county councillor has played down through the years and the implicit condemnation of their contribution to local authority matters is to be deplored.

Mr. Molloy

I never said any such thing.

Mr. E. Collins

I said "the implicit condemnation."

Mr. Molloy

That is what the Deputy reads into it.

Mr. E. Collins

This is what the Minister said and I quote:

The arguments against the system are well known—a system of appointment by vote of elected members of local councils does not readily lend itself to the detailed procedures and controls which would ensure that selection is made on merit alone.

This is an implicit condemnation of the role the county councillor has played.

Mr. Molloy

Stating facts, that is all.

Mr. E. Collins

He also said:

The alleged abuses and malpractices which are reported in the newspapers from time to time reflect no credit on the system and I think it is fair to say that the system has proved an embarrassment to councillors over the years.

The Minister was very quick to his feet last night when Deputy L'Estrange quoted from a national newspaper and very quick to discount reports in a national newspaper. He was not so quick to give favourable comment in his speech to the county councillors for the role they played in our community down through the years. This is very important. Our county councillors, city councillors and town councillors play a positive and helpful role throughout our community. They do many good acts. They see that many necessary developments are carried out. I object to any Minister making little of them in this House which, in effect, is what the Minister's speech does.

Mr. Molloy

I certainly did not make little of them. The Deputy can try, if he likes, but he will not make that one hang on me.

Mr. E. Collins

It is there in his own speech. I do not have to try.

Mr. Molloy

It is not in my speech.

Mr. E. Collins

The Minister is condemned from his own mouth.

Mr. Molloy

It is not in the speech. I am sure the Deputy can read English.

Mr. E. Collins

In the appointment of rate collectors there have been agreements between parties down through the years. This has given rise to adverse comment. It has been said by a number of speakers that, by and large, rate collectors have been doing a good job. It is not fair to say that the system has proved an embarrassment to councillors.

Mr. Molloy

Many Fine Gael Deputies who spoke before Deputy Collins said it was an embarrassment to them to have to carry out this function as county councillors. They agreed with what I said.

Mr. E. Collins

I am saying that the system has proven itself to a large extent, and that rate collectors have carried out their jobs efficiently down through the years. The emergence of a social conscience in Fianna Fáil always coincides with the future of Fianna Fáil. That is the case in relation to this Bill. It has been said time and time again that the Fianna Fáil Party have not got a majority on the county councils.

Mr. Molloy

And never did.

Mr. E. Collins

Yes, they did.

Mr. Molloy

Never did.

Dr. O'Donovan

Ah, go on.

Mr. E. Collins

Obviously the reason why this Bill is before the House is to prevent any appointments other than Fianna Fáil appointments, or to reduce the damage done to any possible Fianna Fáil supporters who may be looking for a job.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy can vote against the Bill if he wants to.

Mr. E. Collins

I have my own suggestions to make. I did not interrupt the Minister when he was making his speech.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy is implying a lot of falsehoods.

Acting Chairman

I would ask the Deputy to address himself to the Chair and I would ask other Deputies and, indeed, the Minister, to resist the inclination which we all have towards being co-operative with each other——

Mr. E. Collins

Will you address your remarks to the Minister and let me have untrammelled speech?

Acting Chairman

I am asking the Minister to resist the temptation to be co-operative towards Deputies who are speaking.

Mr. E. Collins

This Bill seems to me to be a rushed affair and not well considered. I wonder what consultations the Minister had with the County Managers' Association and what consideration he has given to adopting the best system of collecting rates. I am satisfied that he has opted for the wrong system.

I doubt very much that county managers want the responsibility of appointing rate collectors. In effect, this Bill will shift the pressure from the county councillors to the county managers. All county managers are subject to pressures from county councillors, local Oireachtas representatives, and ordinary private people. They cannot live in an isolated igloo. They have to play golf, or whatever it is. They have to live in their social circle. They are subject to pressures. Perhaps the pressures to which they are subject are far greater than the pressures to which county councillors are subject.

County managers have many dealings with the Department of Local Government. Practically every penny they spend has to be sanctioned by the Department. Such dealings between county managers and the Department must give rise to familiarity. It is very easy for a message to come down from the Department, perhaps not directly from the Minister's office, but indirectly, concerning an appointment to be made. I must honestly admit that it has been my experience, as a member of a borough council, that the appointments, in the middle and upper ranges, certainly, to the council or the corporation have always been made on an unbiassed basis. To that extent I am satisfied with the Minister's Department. This is not the case in relation to other Departments. To say that the system which is now being proposed will do away with all abuses is an oversimplification.

The system which the Minister should try to establish or encourage is the system which allows payment of rates directly to the offices of the county councils and city councils. The burden of rates has become heavy in the past few years because of inflation. A system of payment by instalment is preferable and is in operation in a number of councils. I would have preferred it if the Minister had introduced a positive incentive for an instalment payment system which would allow payments directly to the county council offices or the city council offices.

The traditional method of ensuring payment of rates was the stick rather than the carrot. A person is open to the legal process of the law and the rate collectors have a good deal of independence in respect of whom they can prosecute. I would suggest that there should be discount for early payment of rates. This would be a painless system and a very successful system. This system is established in respect of houses built prior to 1926, I think. I am not sure of the date. I am aware that in certain cities, including Waterford, in respect of houses built early in this century or late in the previous century, you can get a discount for payment of rates if they are paid before a certain date.

I would much prefer this system of discounts to the present system of automatic recourse to law for nonpayment of rates. In some local authority areas, if a person is unable to pay rates the manager has the power to remit portion or all of the rates, which is a good system. The Department deserve credit for allowing the introduction of this system by councils. I must say that in fairness. I would suggest that in this Bill or, perhaps, at some future date, the Minister should give positive incentives for an instalment system, for payment through the offices, and for discounts for early payment. This would be a painless way of achieving payment of the rates.

Mr. Molloy

In other words, a subsidy for the rich at the expense of the poor.

Mr. E. Collins

I am not suggesting that.

Mr. Molloy

The Deputy is suggesting that a person who is well off and can pay immediately should get a reduction but that a poor person, paying by instalments during the 12 months, would have to pay in full.

Mr. E. Collins

I am surprised that the Minister is not au fait with the facts. People most likely to pay their rates at times are not the rich people. The poorer sections of the community are inclined to put their rates aside with the result that they pay earlier than would, for instance, business people or rich people. I am trying to suggest to the Minister a positive system that would eliminate the necessity for appointing new rate collectors. When this was suggested by another speaker last night, a Fianna Fáil Deputy suggested that we wished to put people out of work. Of course that is not the intention at all. The method of paying through the office is a simpler method than the present one. It is necessary that we remove the fear of the law in so far as payment of rates is concerned.

The other role of the rate collector is the compilation each year of the register of electors. This could be done by employees of the various councils. There is a slack time in the various departments within a county council when this work could be done. In respect of valuation a person comes under the eye of a valuation officer when he makes an application for permission to improve his premises. Therefore, the role of the rate collector in this respect has diminished substantially.

Reference has been made to the role of county managers. My experience in this respect has been good. I have been treated fairly by county managers and other members of councils with whom I have come in contact have been treated fairly also by them down through the years. However, some Deputies have alleged that managers are subject to pressures and that Fianna Fáil candidates are successful while Fianna Fáil are in power. I am not suggesting that any party, my own included, are angles in this respect but we are trying to achieve a system that would eliminate the possibility of any malpractice. My only reason for contributing to the debate is to suggest to the Minister that rates should be paid through the office by instalments. I suggest, as a positive way to ensure the payment of rates that there would be a discount system in respect of early payment. This would be of benefit, too, to county councils because most councils are almost perpetually in an overdraft position by reason of the delays by the Department in the payment of road and other grants to which the council are entitled.

Dr. O'Donovan

At almost one per cent per month.

Mr. E. Collins

Yes, and with the extra charges now being made by the bank it will certainly continue to be 1 per cent per month. I am surprised that the Minister has endeavoured to make a political point out of my suggestion that a method of discount would achieve a very good result. Such a system would not favour the rich at the expenses of the poor, but it would have an overall benefit in respect of the finances of the councils. Because of inflation and the increasing cost of works and developments in progress in each county area the position is becoming worse each year. Unless something is done to ensure the early payment of rates and until such time as the Department are prepared to pay grants on time, the system I have suggested, in good faith and without political overtones, would be of great benefit to the councils and would help towards the alleviation of the overdraft burden on them.

Mr. Foley

Like my colleague, Deputy Brennan, I welcome this Bill and I compliment the Minister on its introduction. It will have the effect of restricting the collaboration and mismanagement that has gone on in respect of the appointments of rate collectors.

The method of the appointment of rate collectors in the constituency I represent must have influenced the Minister in no small way in introducing this measure. Deputy Collins said it is his opinion that the Bill is a rushed affair. So far as I am aware legislation of this nature has been on the mat for some time, at least for the past three or four years. The Minister is to be complimented on grasping the nettle firmly and deciding that the abuses that have been practised in respect of these appointments will be tackled while he is in office. What has gone on in County Dublin regarding the appointment of rate collectors during the past three or four years has encouraged——

Dr. O'Donovan

What about 20 years ago when the commissioner was sent in to collect rates?

Mr. Foley

I am talking of Dublin County Council but the Deputy is speaking of Dublin Corporation.

Dr. O'Donovan

I am speaking of Dublin County Council when Mr. D. J. O'Donovan was given the task of collecting the rates.

Mr. Foley

I wish to put a few matters straight. Recently in County Dublin five rate collectors were appointed.

Mr. L. Belton

Six.

Mr. Foley

Yes, six to be specific. Prior to the appointment of these rate collectors, the posts were advertised.

The number of applications received was 120. Some of these people had no chance of being appointed, others had a slight chance and some were members of various organisations: some were members of either Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fáil and these were the people who were regarded as having the best chance of appointment. These applicants applied in good faith and were under the impression that by applying formally they would be granted an interview on the basis of which they would be considered for appointment. They understood that their applications would be considered, too, on the basis of their qualifications and having regard to the areas from which they came. However, that was not the case. The appointments were made as a result of overnight collaboration between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil.

Mr. L. Belton

That agreement was there for years.

Mr. Foley

The appointments were made on the basis of the representation of both these parties on the council. That, of course, left the Labour Party out in the cold. It is regrettable that politics should be brought to such a low level. Some of the Fianna Fáil appointees were not even members of the local cumann or of the organisation at all, but their fathers happened to be the secretaries of local comhairle ceanntair or they had relatives who were very friendly with local councillors. It was a case of "You scratch my back and I will scratch yours". It is rarely I get up and say newspapers were telling the truth but the articles in The Sunday Press and in the evening papers with regard to this matter were certainly telling the truth in all that they had to say about the appointment of rate collectors at that particular time. That was one scandal that called for nationwide publicity.

It has been said that rate collectors should be familiar with the particular areas to which they are appointed, that they should know the people and their financial position and should be able to deal with the farmers. For the record, three of the individuals appointed on that occasion did not even know the areas of north or south County Dublin. None had ever stood in a farmyard except, perhaps, to collect the Christmas turkey by way of bonus. Nevertheless these were appointed. Everyone knows Dublin County Council were most embarrassed because of these particular appointments. The embarrassment was not caused because of the collaboration; it was caused by the fact that only six could be appointed and, six having been appointed, a great many members of the organisation were left out. Needless to say this must have prompted the Minister, as well as what I mentioned earlier, to bring in this legislation. I agree the legislation is necessary because, if it does not solve the problem of preventing a split in some Fianna Fáil organisation in County Dublin, it will certainly solve the problem of county councillors being committed to endorsing the appointments made by people who are their seniors on the council and who tell them that their job is to vote for a particular individual for a rate collectorship: you do that or you get out. The screws are put on and councillors have to do what they are told or get out.

These individuals will now become redundant and that will not be before its time. The Minister said quite rightly that the appointment would be made by the manager. I have not always had co-operation from the manager of either Dublin city or county, but I will say that he will certainly not be "got at" in the same way as members of the county council were got at. I am not saying they got cheque book endorsements for their efforts, but they lived well afterwards and their appointees are still trying to make up the ground they lost as a result of their appointments.

Mr. L. Belton

Poor Deputy Burke.

Mr. Foley

This kind of thing must be stopped. It should be brought to the notice of people generally because public representatives are increasingly getting themselves a very bad name and this, in turn, reflects on local authorities and gets them a very bad name. Irrespective of their abilities, rate collectors in the past have been appointed because of their existing or promised support of a particular political organisation. Neither Fianna Fáil nor Fine Gael are without sin in this regard.

This applies to a very small extent to Labour in County Dublin because they are in a minority and were left out in the cold, and that was unjust; but collaboration in the appointment of the chairman of the county council is something with which I entirely disagree and that disagreement has been responsible in some small measure for having me sitting now on this side of the House. My senior colleague at the time, who was alleged to have more knowledge and more ability in dealing with local affairs, thought it was right to collaborate with the Fine Gael Party so that the Chair could be switched about and the Labour Party left out in the cold.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Carter)

The Deputy will come to the Bill now.

Mr. Foley

Just hold on.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy will please come to the Bill.

Mr. Foley

I will. Do not get excited.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has concentrated sufficiently on that aspect.

Mr. Foley

I will come to the Bill. This is all relevant to the Bill. The individuals involved in the appointments of rate collectors have the same sins to answers for in regard to appointments on Dublin County Council and if these sins are applicable in one direction——

Acting Chairman

This Bill has nothing to do with the election of chairmen of county councils. Would the Deputy please deal with the Bill?

Mr. Foley

I yield to your request. What I am trying to suggest is that this kind of collusion in Dublin County Council should be stopped. To emphasise that I had to widen the range a little in order to show that that type of collusion is both unwarranted and unnecessary. The Minister pinpointed the problem. This kind of thing has got a certain amount of publicity. Forgiveness for the sins that have been committed cannot be offered at this particular stage and the only way in which to deal with the situation is to take them out of purgatory now, though I believe that those who selected those rate collectors in Dublin County Council can never be forgiven.

Mr. L. Belton

The Donegal one came after that. Tell us about that.

Mr. Foley

Everyone can speak for himself. I am glad the Minister has taken the initiative during his term of office, however long or short it may be, to bring in this Bill. This will save everybody embarrassment. It will ensure that justice is done. Some people have alleged that they might not have faith in the managers. That causes me to wonder somewhat because the majority of the managers were appointed by the Local Appointments Commissions. Everyone of them was scrutinised and interviewed and the scrutiny was both searching and strenuous. If people have not faith in this type of individual they will not have faith in a county council. A person who has no voice in the matter could not give a fair judgement in the appointment of a rate collector.

I have every faith in county managers. I do not say that every single one of them has committed the same offences as are associated with councillors regarding the appointment of rate collectors. Managers are responsible for their deeds whereas the 15 or 16 members on a council are individually responsible for nothing.

The Minister's suggestion that the appointment should be made by the county manager gets my full endorsement. I say to him, thank Heavens he has brought in this Bill and had the initiative to see that the type of collaboration which has gone on can be stopped and I say also, thank Heavens that Dublin County Council and the Fianna Fáil organisation and the Fine Gael organisation in Dublin County Council will not have to come together again to appoint rate collectors pro rata on a party basis. We can look forward to the appointment of rate collectors on the basis of ability and local knowledge and can be assured that they have been fairly selected and not by way of political persuasion.

Mr. Murphy

The measure before the House deals with the system of collecting rates. Changes are suggested. I have been a member of a local authority for many years and I have a view with regard to the collection of rates which I have firmly held for more than 20 years. The system that I favour has been in operation in County Cork and has been working efficiently and well. It is the system of office collection. Members of the staff of the authority collect the rates. I am very much in favour of that system. That is not to say that I in any way reflect on rate collectors as a body. They had a difficult job to perform in years gone by when money was scarce and rate collection was not a very popular job. They had to press for payment by persons who were experiencing difficulty in meeting their rate commitments. The rate collectors generally did a reasonably good job and are doing it but in my view the need for that system no longer exists.

It was agreed in Cork almost 20 years ago that the rates would be collected by the office. That agreement was reached on the basis that it would be a cheaper method and that the approach to rate collection would be uniform. Naturally, individual collectors differed in their methods of collection whereas a central collecting body usually can bring about uniformity of approach. That system was continued for a number of years and then, due to heavy pressures on members of the council, some seven or eight years ago the system was changed to allow of four appointments being made. At that time I opposed the change as vehemently as possible. I have no fault to find with the authority's right to make that decision. The majority on the council were legally entitled to come to that decision and to make appointments in accordance with law.

My view on this Bill is that it should not be a question of changing the system of appointments; it should be a question of changing the system of collection. If I had my way I would strongly favour the system of collection through the office and make that applicable to every local authority. That would not interfere with existing rate collectors. The present system could be phased out according as rate collectors would retire. I have made myself clear and the records of Cork County Council indicate what my view has been. Having said all that, may I say that I am not at all satisfied with what is embodied in the Minister's statement or with his hypothesis. As Simon Pure he states that everything will be fair and impartial and that Fianna Fáil want to appoint people on merit. Everybody knows that Fianna Fáil do not believe in appointing people on merit. The main qualification Fianna Fáil seek in the matter of appointments is political allegiance. It is hypocrisy for the Minister to state as he did:

It is, as I have said, my view that appointments of county rate collectors should be made strictly on the basis of merit and I fell the time is now opportune to make the change and that it should be made as soon as possible.

I will deal with that statement in a few moments. Of course, I am well aware of the Government's continuing efforts to whittle away the powers of locally elected members of councils. Members of councils are elected in the same way as Members of this House are elected, by the vote of the electorate, and can be removed from office periodically when the people get the opportunity to remove them. That is entirely different from the case of executive staffs who cannot be removed from office except in exceptional circumstances.

The Minister said that he would like to see appointments made on merit. How many more appointments would he like to see on merit? Is the rule that is to be applied to rate collectors to be applied generally in other areas? As a Deputy asked, are the Judiciary to be appointed on merit in future? Are State prosecutors to be appointed on merit? Are State solicitors to be appointed on merit? Are postmasters, sub-postmasters and post office staff generally to be appointed on merit? These appointments, are more important than the appointments of rate collectors. Are Fianna Fáil candidates in future to stop saying and implying when canvassing votes that if the voter votes for them they may be able to get help them, they may be able to get Johnny or Mary a job? Will they stop saying: "If you join the cumann you will have a better chance of getting a grant"? The manner in which grants are disbursed at present is scandalous. It is a well known fact that preferential treatment is given to supporters of the Government. There is this kind of a Simon Pure attitude in regard to this group of appointments of rate collectors. Who will answer that question? I dislike mentioning these facts here but a possible answer is that the Government are entitled to have certain gifts to bestow on their friends, certain rights in making appointments. Under the Constituation they say they must appoint the Judiciary but there is nothing to preclude the Government from setting up a commission, in the same way as county managers are allegedly appointed by county councils, and getting the commission to recommend a particular nominee for a post. The Government's say would then be purely formal. In Ireland we do not act impartially and at present appointments to very important posts in different fields are not made impartially over a wide area.

Acting Chairman

This Bill deals specifically with one range of appointments in local authorities and the discussion may not be widened.

Mr. Murphy

With respect, I think it is quite in order to make comparisons between the type of appointments under discussion and other types.

Acting Chairman

It is not so much what the Deputy may think; it is what is in the Bill.

Mr. Murphy

I think I have made my point reasonably well. In regard to the system which applies here we got great insight into what happens from Deputy Foley. I do not want to reflect on councillors in any county because I could not substantiate any charge from my own personal knowledge but, speaking as a Labour Member, I think the Deputy summed up our position reasonably well when he said that Labour was out in the cold as regards appointments under the present system. That is generally correct: few Labour men can hope to get appointments by votes of councils when we have not sufficient representation, but that is not my reason for criticising the system that exists. If the majority of members of a council decide to act within the law I respect their decision. That is what the Dáil are doing. A slight majority of elected Members of the House gave Fianna Fáil preference in the last election and they are acting accordingly.

As regards the rate collectors I do not want to repeat how I think rates should be collected. I am not in favour of this proposal. However, I do not want to have this Simon Pure attitude that because Fianna Fáil have lost in the last election control of a number of councils business is not now so good, and possibly in councils where they hold control it is difficult to satisfy the contenders in their own party for selection, that the present system has outlived its usefulness and therefore should be abolished. Deputy Foley told us something about Dublin County Council and he was probably correct in his appraisal of what happened there. I accept the appointments were made by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael at meetings held prior to the ordinary council meeting where such appointments were to be determined. Significance should be placed on Deputy Foley's comments; he is a long standing member of the Fianna Fáil Party and he has told us that, when they were unable because of lack of votes to get their own men nominated in Dublin, his former senior colleague made overtures to Fine Gael and between them they scooped the pool so that others, including anybody with Labour affiliations, seemingly had little or no chance.

However, these appointments were made in the open; people knew what was happening. If the councillors were wrong, people know what happened and if the people of Dublin county dislike the manner in which their councillors are acting they will have an opportunity, possibly in the next 12 months, of saying so through the ballot boxes and of removing them from office. I make this statement on the remarks of Deputy Foley that they were "got at". How does one define "got at"? Is it not the normal practice when seeking election to this House that we try to pressurise people into voting for us and our parties, that we go out and ask them to do so and indicate that we can do a better job than the other parties? Is that not normal procedure in a democracy? Where appointments are made, as rate collecting appointments were made up to now on a voting system, there is nothing wrong in an individual applicant trying to further his application. I understand that serious allegations are being made here that this was done by understand methods. I believe when such allegations are made by a Member of the House in a privileged position he should elaborate and if, as alleged, corruption existed he should expose it.

The question of an alternative system arises. We all know what happens at a council meeting but nobody knows, perhaps, what would happen at the alternative meeting suggested by the Minister in this Bill. Are we to assume that all appointments are made fairly and impartially, that everything is above board in all the local authorities and in State appointments and that interview boards act with absolute impartiality? I have spent 25 years in public life but I do not make all those assumptions. Even assuming that everything was not satisfactory in the appointment of rate collectors, the same could be said about other systems of appointment. There are men of the highest integrity in the public service and I have no doubt they discharge their duty admirably and impartially, but that may not be the position in all cases.

The Minister stated: "As things now stand there is scope for canvassing and unreasonable pressures may be exerted on elected members." I remember when Fianna Fáil tried to get back into power in 1951 and it could be stated that then they exerted pressure. They put pressure—I do not know if it was reasonable or unreasonable—on the four Independent Members who elected them in 1951. It was the joke of the country. Everyone here saw the poor Members being followed around the place and we all knew that the Government were formed as a result of pressure. When turnover tax was introduced pressure was used. Do Fianna Fáil exert undesirable pressures? Coming from the Government, the language used in this instance is hypocritical.

Is this a new game in the Dáil? Will the Government make changes with regard to other appointments? The Government dislike the elected members of local authorities having the right to make appointments. Will the Government hand over their rights to a commission? The Government are notorious for handing over matters to commissions, not only to Irish commissions but to foreign ones. We had McKinsey telling us how local government should be restructured; we asked a group called Markpress to tell us how to advertise Ireland; there was a commission to report on the pay structure of Members of this House and others outside——

Acting Chairman (Mr. Healy)

I would ask the Deputy to refrain from broadening the scope of debate on this Bill. The Deputy should confine his remarks to the Bill and to its implications. He should not extend it to the ramifications of the State.

Mr. Murphy

We are appointing commissions to examine the reports of commissions.

Acting Chairman

The Bill has nothing to do with commissions. I have asked the Deputy to confine his remarks to the Bill.

Mr. Murphy

Is this the forerunner of a changed structure so far as appointments generally are concerned? Are we to assume that in the legal field there will be a change? Will it be necessary to be a member of a cumann, or possibly a Deputy, as happened in other instances, in order to get a senior appointment on the bench or as a State solicitor? We are told that with regard to the appointment of rate collectors the system was rotten and it was time to change it. It is implied in the Minister's statement that it is the only system that needs change. Will an independent authority examine the claims of people who require development grants and will there be an impartial system to determine whether their application will be approved? Will an impartial system be set up to determine other public and Government appointments?

As the Chair seems to be under the impression that I am extending the scope of the debate, I do not propose to dwell on the matter further as we will have other opportunties to do this. However, I resent the hyprocrisy of the statement made by the Minister. The Government are trying to pretend they are not guilty and that everything is fair and above-board in State affairs. It is no pleasure for me or for any Member to cast aspersions on public administration but this is the place to give viewpoints and to make a factual appraisal of the situation.

I would appeal to the Minister but I realise that appeals from the Opposition to the Government are never heard or heeded. However, many years after an appeal is made occasionally it is acted on. Can the Minister tell me if it is possible to have rates throughout the country collected through the offices? I see that Deputy Burke has returned. It is regrettable he was not here earlier because we had a glowing account from a junior colleague of his of how the Deputy does his job on the Dublin County Council.

I do not wish to cast any aspersions on the collectors who have been doing their job. They have a difficult job to do but they carry it out admirably and efficiently. However, it has been my belief that office collection would ensure more uniformity and this would be an advantage. Different methods are applied by different collectors; some are more lenient than others but on the whole it would be preferable to have uniformity in the method of collection.

Mr. L. Belton

I am glad to see that Fianna Fáil intend to change the system of appointment of rate collectors but surely we cannot be blamed on this side of the House if we begin to wonder and ask why this belated conversion of Fianna Fáil. Down through the years Fianna Fáil have held sway on a great many of our county councils. They have taken full advantage of this in appointing rate collectors. There are different systems which can be employed for the collection of rates. We could continue to use the present system which I think nobody advocates. If there is to be a change it could be arranged that the city manager would appoint a commission to appoint rate collectors as envisaged in the Minister's proposal. We could also have the system of the Local Appointments Commission making the appointments, as suggested by Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick. I think this would prove to be a better and a fairer system. I cannot at all agree with the suggestion in the Minister's speech that while some of the major appointments should be made by the Local Appointments Commission smaller appointments could not very effectively be made by that commission because of their local character and the necessity of having local knowledge. This could easily be overcome by having a condition of residence over a number of years and making it necessary that the applicants should furnish particulars of their knowledge of the area. This is not of great magnitude and could easily be overcome.

Another method which could be adopted is that of direct payment to the office. The Minister must concede it is a compliment to certain councils where Fianna Fáil have not got a majority but other parties have the majority and could appoint rate collectors of their own choice, if they so wished, that they have refrained from doing this. In Cork they could appoint rate collectors but they have retained the system of collecting rates through the office. This has also happened in Counties Westmeath and Kerry. The Minister will agree that the councillors in those areas have not tried to take advantage of their superior numbers over Fianna Fáil. They have not tried to select their own people.

Deputy Foley was very critical of recent happenings in Dublin County Council in connection with the appointment of rate collectors. I do not intend to go deeply into that but on a previous occasion members of Dublin County Council, the majority of them being against the Fianna Fáil Party, appointed a well-known and prominent member of the Fianna Fáil Party as rate collector. I am not saying he was not entitled to be appointed if he was the best man but they did not take advantage of their superior numbers to get the position for themselves.

I was beginning to think that there was some hope of Fianna Fáil doing the right thing in this House when they announced that after long agitation they had decided to change the method of planning appeals to the Minister. For many years it had been in the hands of the Minister himself but now they had agreed that it should be subject to a commission. In this Bill they seem to be doing quite the reverse and the reverse of what Deputy Fitzpatrick had asked them to do. They are vesting in one man the power to appoint rate collectors. It would be fairer to have a commission and it would not be placing complete responsibility on or giving full power to one individual. If this plan envisaged by the Minister would result in a saving there might be some merit in it.

He has not indicated to us that he has given any consideration to the method of collecting rates through the offices. Several Deputies have stated that they have practical experience of having rates collected through the offices in their counties as effectively as if rate collectors were employed, and at a much cheaper rate. Surely in this day and age with rising costs, the Minister should give serious consideration to this matter. If rates can be collected as effectively and at a cheaper rate, surely he should try to save even a small sum.

I do not know that the system envisaged by the Minister, whereby the manager will appoint a commission to select rate collectors, will take local knowledge into account. In Dublin city, rate collectors are appointed from the existing staff. I do not think one of the conditions is that whatever member of the staff is being appointed must have a thorough knowledge of the area to which he is being appointed. They are doing their job very effectively and very well. We have two systems in Dublin city and Dublin county. Deputy Burke has experience of both the city and the county. He has been a member of both local authorities and I think he will agree that the rate collectors in Dublin county are doing an equally good job. While I do not agree with the method of selection employed heretofore, and while it probably led to certain mal-practices, I do not think it is as bad as some people would lead you to believe.

The Minister said that before he decided to bring in this Bill he consulted with many people, including councillors.

Mr. Molloy

I did not say that. I did not use the word "consult".

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): His phraseology was very careful.

Mr. L. Belton

The Minister said:

I had the matter further considered and in the light of views submitted by many people, including councillors...

Mr. Molloy

I did not consult.

Mr. L. Belton

Views were submitted by many people, including councillors.

Mr. Molloy

Anybody was free to submit his views.

Mr. L. Belton

I should like the Minister to tell us who the people were and who the councillors were. Was this solely confined to councillors of one party, or did he get views from councillors of different parties? What type of people were in consultation with him? Were they members of his own party, or members of the general public, or members of other political parties? The Minister should be a little more specific about this and let us know what people and what councillors submitted views to him.

In his anxiety to agree with the method envisaged by the Minister for collecting the rates, Deputy Foley made an excellent case when he said the county manager was the ideal person because he had been examined and appointed by the Local Appointments Commission and that the Local Appointments Commission, having inquired into every aspect of his career, had found that he was a fit and proper person. If the Local Appointments Commission, in Deputy Foley's words, succeeded in getting the very best person as county manager, surely they are quite capable of finding the most suitable person to be a rate collector.

I do not think the Minister is doing himself any good by advocating that this power should be vested in the city or county manager. Because of the structure of local authorities, practically everything done by a local authority is subject to the Minister's sanction. Therefore, the Minister and the manager must be in close consultation. They must meet regularly. People cannot be blamed if they say at times that the Minister is influencing the city or county manager, or that the managers are influenced by the Minister. Many of those suspicions could be removed from people's minds. If there is in a system the slightest taint of suspicion, to use a term employed by the Taoiseach, that system should not be used. I am sure the Minister will admit that there is just as good a chance of getting the right person selected as a rate collector by allowing the Local Appointments Commission to appoint him, as there is by allowing the city or county manager to make the appointment. This would remove any suspicion of undue influence being used.

For many years local authorities have been jealous of their powers being taken away from them and extra powers being granted to the managers. The fact that the Minister is taking away power from elected representatives on the one hand is bad enough, but at the same time he is granting extra powers to the managers, thereby widening the gap in respect of the extent of power vested in the elected representatives and that vested in the managers. This will not lead to harmonious relationships between the elected representatives and the managers. This measure will not result in any saving in expense and will not make for better relations between managers and elected representatives and the suggestion might be made that undue influence could be used by the Minister or by his Department in respect of a manager appointing a person whom he considered suited best for the post. Therefore, this measure is not solving any problem. Rather, it will create extra problems.

Mr. P.J. Burke

It was not my intention to intervene in this debate but I understand that in Deputy Foley's address to the House there were certain inferences regarding my colleagues in Dublin County Council. I have not got a copy of the Deputy's speech but I hope to be able to read it after I move the adjournment of the debate.

When the appointments to which Deputy Foley referred were made I was in hospital suffering from double pneumonia. However, I must say that all those men on Dublin County Council who were associated with the appointments are honourable men and if there was an agreement reached between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, it was reached honourably. Obviously, I could not have been present at the meeting when the decisions were made but Mr. Joseph MacAnthony who was rejected twice by the electorate of County Dublin made much play of that meeting and he blackguarded me in every way possible. The electorate of County Dublin have been returning me to this House for almost 29 years.

At that meeting of the county council the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael members voted for three appointments on each side. There was no influence one way or the other. I have been chairman of the county council on two occasions so I am in a position to speak for the members. It is my duty to defend them here regardless of whether they are for me or against me.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Is the Deputy aware that questions are not being taken until 3 p.m.?

Mr. P.J. Burke

I thought they were being taken at 2.30 and that I would then have an opportunity of reading Deputy Foley's speech. It is a dastardly situation that anyone should come here and use this House for the purpose of impugning any of these honourable men. In regard to the decisions reached I found it embarrassing that about 30 of the applicants were political friends of mine but that, of course, only three of those could be appointed. The same applies to Fine Gael. One of the most difficult tasks for a man in public life is to have to decide on matters such as this.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): There is no scarcity of friends on an occasion like that.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I agree and the problem is that in retaining the friendship of three people, one would be creating, perhaps, 100 enemies because there were more than 200 applications for the posts. Mr. MacAnthony had the effrontery to imply that there was something wrong in three Fine Gael and three Fianna Fáil supporters being appointed.

Anything done at county council level is above board and open to criticism whereas anything done behind doors by, for instance, a city or county manager, cannot be questioned. I have never known anybody who did not have likes and dislikes regardless of what position he might hold. My only objection to the system of appointments in operation up to now is that a public representative makes more enemies than friends in respect of appointments.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): There was a net loss of votes in the whole operation. Is that not the point?

Mr. P.J. Burke

I agree and there was much pressure on Deputies during that period. So far as Dublin County Council are concerned it is very wrong for anyone to imply that there was anything wrong or that there was any reward in respect of any appointments. I defend categorically all the members of the council, regardless of which party they represent. Any member that has ever been appointed to Dublin County Council, and I include in that members who were appointed long before my time there, have done a good job. The fact that a person might have many letters after his name would not convince me in the least that he would make a good rate collector. Somebody who would have the right approach and who would be prepared to speak to the people in a humane way would be the best person for the job, who will say to Johnny Murphy, or whoever it may be: "Give me what you can. Do what you can for me. I will not injure you." That is the type of human being we have appointed. Going back 40 years in Dublin County Council I can safely say that no appointee has ever let us down. A few appointed by another agency did let us down. The man who is appointed by the county council is always a good man, a man who is loyal to and commands the loyalty of those who vote for him. All our rate collectors in County Dublin are men of the highest integrity. As far as the councillors are concerned, I have yet to meet the man who would give his vote for any consideration other than loyalty to his own party and to the person for whom he votes. He will not allow himself to be influenced by somebody whom the people twice rejected. I am sorry to have to say that here, but I have to say it because of the allegations made by a man who was once a colleague of mine but is now an Independent.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): He might be back with the Deputy soon.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I will not tolerate anybody impugning any colleague of mine, no matter what his views are. I am sorry I have not got a copy of Deputy Foley's speech so that I could deal with it as drastically as it deserves, but there will be another day on which I will do that. Like Deputy Fitzpatrick, I do not approve of this House being used to the disadvantage of anybody else, and I will always defend the people I work with, irrespective of their political affiliations. I respect them as decent, honourable men. That is what my colleagues in Dublin County Council are. Not one would do a dishonourable act for reward. I say that in all seriousness.

Dublin County Council has never acted dishonourably and it is because they refused to act dishonourably that we have this Bill before the House today. The Bill will remove a great deal of responsibility from us. We appointed six rate collectors in County Dublin. At the time they were appointed I was ill, but I know that the appointments were made honourably. My only regret was that we could not appoint all the applicants. We could appoint only three and, from that point of view, we lost out politically. But the decision was an honourable one. There was no promise of reward to anyone. They were appointed because they were the best. Even though I was not there I take full responsibility with my colleagues for these appointments.

Deputy Fitzpatrick has recommended an alternative way out. I have to support my colleague, the Minister for Local Government, in this.

Mr. Coogan

Deputy Burke talked about gentlemen in Dublin. It is good to know that there are some gentlemen somewhere who have a grievance. There are a number of gentlemen in my county. The Minister has been a county councillor in Galway. Deputy Hussey is a county councillor.

Mr. Hussey

I am proud of it.

Mr. Coogan

I had great respect for Deputy Hussey always. This Bill is an open confession by the Minister that the time has come when jobs for the boys are running out and the boys are now running out of the party because there are not enough jobs to go around. I can remember a caucus meeting when the present Minister was a county councillor. The councillors trailed in through the door at 25 minutes past three like a bunch of sheep; they had been brainwashed and told exactly what they had to do. It is as a result of that that we have this Bill before the House. We have reached the stage at which Fianna Fáil are losing out, especially in my county. We put people forward who had never been members of any party; we put them forward because they were men fit for the job. What happened? They got nowhere. But I knew Fianna Fáil to put some hacks forward who subsequently turned out utterly unfit for the job.

Mr. L'Estrange

That is cherishing all the children of the nation equally.

Mr. Coogan

It may be, but some are more equal than others. When we, in my party, discovered what had happened we brought a High Court action and, in spite of the Minister at the time, we got the appointment for the right candidate. The office method collection has been mentioned. There are certain aspects of that method about which I am not satisfied. A rate collector has other duties to perform, such as the compilation of the register. I do not know how the office method would work in that respect. I have known how it has worked over the years. I have known some great Fine Gael supporters ticked off the register by the appointees of Fianna Fáil. Electors have had a vote for years and have not left their address and have found that their names were not on the register. The "boys" were working on the list.

It has been suggested that the county managers should make the appointments. I do not think county managers want this kind of work. There are county managers who support Fianna Fáil and there are county managers who support Fine Gael. Irrespective of what Government are in power, county managers should not be in the position that pressure could be put on them in regard to appointments. The Local Appointments Commission is the proper body to make the appointments.

I have witnessed over a long period the appointment of rate collectors in Galway. I have seen members of the council walking into the chamber like lads going into court to be charged with something. One man would be told to propose a candidate and another would be told to second the motion. There would be no use in proposing a candidate. The steamroller was used. I have seen some of the great henchmen of Fianna Fáil being appointed. I would remind the Minister that my people were on that county council long before he put shoes on or was out of nappies. I know the history. Deputy Hussey saw them come in there, like they did on the last day on the Oranmore question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not applicable to the Bill.

Mr. Coogan

It is in the rate collecting area.

Dr. FitzGerald

It shows Fianna Fáil corruption.

Mr. Coogan

It shows what they do when they get their hands on anything. I know all about Oranmore.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please keep to the Bill before the House?

Mr. Coogan

Oranmore is in the catchment area where the rate would be collected. If more rates are to be collected in that area we will need a good man there. There will be a great deal of building done.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister objected to canvassing. Who canvassed the people in regard to this venture and got them to change their vote? The Minister refused to do his duty when it went to him. It was sent back because they knew they had a majority on Galway County Council.

Mr. Hussey

The people of Oranmore have no objection.

Mr. L'Estrange

The secretary, a doctor, has called the local Fianna Fáil councillors before him to ask them why they changed their mind.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I thought the Fianna Fáil Cumann objected.

Dr. FitzGerald

Who made them change their mind?

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister did it and then he objected to canvassing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order. Deputy Coogan on the Bill.

Mr. Coogan

If a rate collector is to be appointed now the proposal will go back and forward, like the Oranmore matter. I am talking about the rate collectors.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I hope the Deputy is.

Mr. Coogan

It will be like a game of ping pong. I cannot get the Minister to open his mouth. I heard he was on his feet last night.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Deputy must know a few things. The Minister is keeping quiet.

Mr. Coogan

If the appointment is to be made by the manager, the Minister will find a little fault and will send back the proposal, saying that he is not satisfied. There may be some history behind the candidate that would not suit the party. The Barna area is another area of rate collecting which received great publicity in the papers, which the Minister did not deny, in regard to the question of planning being made in a public house.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It has nothing to do with this Bill. If the Deputy persists the Chair will ask him to resume his seat. The Deputy will keep to the Bill.

Mr. Coogan

I have mentioned an area where rates are collected. Some people in the Barna area may not be able to afford to pay their rates and the rate collector can bring pressure on them. If people build in this area the rate collector will come down on them.

Mr. L'Estrange

In Oranmore they will get a good price for their land.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy L'Estrange is not helping by interrupting.

Mr. L'Estrange

I should like to hinder the Fianna Fáil Party in any way I could.

Mr. Coogan

The Minister knows the little bits of corruption and the background there. I am sorry that the whole House cannot follow this but they will be able to do so before long. There will be another debate in this House that will expose a great many things.

Mr. L'Estrange

I never saw the Minister so quiet. Whatever knowledge the Deputy has, the Minister will not talk.

Mr. Coogan

I am sick and tired of the method adopted in Galway County Council. I have seen the henchmen outside the door in groups. They are lined up. They say, "I will do my best for you. I will do what I can".

Dr. FitzGerald

And "God willing".

Mr. Coogan

The member is not honest enough to tell the applicant that he can do nothing for him, that it will have to be done in the inner sanctum, where the decisions are taken. Deputy Hussey is a decent man and as a member of Galway County Council should be out of that room if there are any more of these appointments being made.

Mr. Hussey

My advice to the Deputy would be to keep away from it.

Mr. Coogan

I have always done so. The first day Deputy Hussey came in he looked to me to be a decent man. I would ask him when these appointments come up not to lend himself to this thing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy keep to the Bill?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): We are discussing every county council in the country, whether we like it or not.

Mr. Coogan

The only place in which we got an appointment on merit was the Four Courts. When Fianna Fáil had done the dirt and appointed one of their crowd who was not fit for the job, we proved in court that he was not fit. This Bill represents a bit of conscience worrying the Minister.

Mr. L'Estrange

Yes, about canvassing.

Mr. Coogan

The Minister said that the appointment of county rate collectors should be made strictly on the basis of merit. Who wrote that for the Minister? Was it one of the officials who wrote it? The Minister should have studied the script because if this were to appear in the Connacht Tribune, especially after Oranmore, it would be too bad. The Minister said: “...and for this reason I have the matter covered in a separate Bill which I now commend to the House and ask that it be dealt with as quickly as possible.” Is some rate collectorship coming up which will cause us trouble in Galway?

Mr. L'Estrange

No. They have lost the majority of the county councils. They control only six now out of 27.

Mr. Coogan

The few we have look healthy enough. Does Deputy Hussey know anything of any of them, getting a bit thin in the back of the neck or anything like that? That reminds me: there was an undertaker in our town and when he would go to church he would look at the back of a man's neck and if he saw the figure 11 come on the back of a man's neck he would talk to the wife. It is the same way now. These fellows are watching the rate collectors and if they see the figure 11 coming on the back of their necks they are already fixing up the jobs. I am only asking Deputy Hussey if there are any of them like this around.

A Deputy

There are a few people watching the back of the Deputy's neck and they are not rate collectors.

Mr. Coogan

The Minister may not have the head for the job but he has the neck.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Coogan

All good men come out on top. That is where we shine and when you are as long in this House——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Coogan should address the Chair on the Bill. He should not be diverted.

Mr. Coogan

They tried that for a long time in my town. It would be a good thing to deal with the caucus meetings that stink in our town and to finish once and for all these men coming in groups outside the chamber. Deputy Hussey had to go through that mill also. The whip is out then and the boys move off saying they will see what they can do. They are like sheep. They are brainwashed when they go up into the inner chamber. When they come out one has been appointed as proposer and the other as seconder.

There is a certain amount of merit in the Bill but it does not go the whole way. Appointments should be made through the appointments commission because the handling of money like this is important. Other things are also involved. I point out the weaknesses in the Bill and I should like the Minister to consider the possibility of having the appointments commission make the appointment and I would also like him to let us know what snags are involved in regard to office collection. I can commend part of the Bill but I cannot go the whole way.

Mr. Hussey

I was very amused listening to Deputy Coogan trying to make his case for the retention of the present system of rate collectors.

Mr. L'Estrange

He did not.

Mr. Hussey

I said I was very amused listening to him make a case for the retention of the present system of rate collecting because——

Mr. L'Estrange

He did not do that. He said he agreed with the change but that they should be appointed by the Local Appointments Commission.

Mr. Hussey

Yes, but what I am coming at is that down through the years in County Galway Deputy Coogan and all the other Fine Gael supporters——

Mr. L'Estrange

I think the Minister might have no brain to wash either. Some of the civil servants may have no brains to wash. Some of them are there on account of their politics and they need not jibe about Members not having brains to wash. That is not the civil servant's job.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Hussey. Deputy L'Estrange should not attack any civil servant in the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

No civil servant should say anything about a Member not having brains to wash. Civil servants are paid officials——

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): On a point of order, I do not blame the civil servants; they are obliged to laugh when the Minister cracks a joke.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No Deputy may attack civil servants in the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

Civil servants are supposed to be above that sort of thing. Some of them would not be there only for their politics and they should not make such remarks about any Deputy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is accusing civil servants——

Mr. L'Estrange

I heard them. I overheard the Minister and a civil servant discussing this——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will withdraw that statement.

Mr. L'Estrange

I certainly will not withdraw it. I overheard the two of them and I certainly will not withdraw it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will withdraw it.

Mr. L'Estrange

I certainly will not withdraw it. No civil servant has authority to come in here and speak of any Fine Gael Deputy——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will withdraw the statement.

Mr. L'Estrange

He was appointed because he was a Fianna Fáil——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will withdraw the statement.

Mr. L'Estrange

I certainly will not withdraw it. I overheard them——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Deputy will not withdraw the statement he will have to leave the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

I certainly will not leave the House.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Assume for a moment that it did happen and suppose it was a joke——

Mr. L'Estrange

It did happen.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Then is a Deputy obliged to withdraw a statement that he heard something with his own ears which did, in fact, happen? If he is compelled to withdraw that, I would, with the greatest respect, say that he would be compelled to tell a lie in the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy made a statement and the Chair asked him to withdraw that statement, not to attack civil servants in the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

Civil servants should be neutral when they come into the House and should not make jokes at the expense of any Deputy here. I will not stand for it.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): On a point of order, may we know from the Chair exactly what he wants Deputy L'Estrange to withdraw?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Crowley

Surely no Member is entitled to come here and suggest that a civil servant had been appointed because of his politics? It is a disgraceful statement.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In reply to Deputy Fitzpatrick's point, if Deputy L'Estrange or any other Deputy has a complaint like this to make there is a way of making it but then it should not be made in public. Every Deputy is aware of that.

Mr. L'Estrange

I have made it in public because the civil servant and the Minister were talking in public and were reflecting on a Fine Gael Deputy here and no civil servant has authority to do that and I certainly will not withdraw.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

All the Chair is pointing out to Deputy L'Estrange is that these remarks should not be made. The Chair has asked him in the ordinary way to withdraw this. There is a way in which Deputy L'Estrange can make a complaint if he wishes to do so.

Mr. L'Estrange

I have no intention of withdrawing what is the truth.

Mr. Molloy

False allegation.

Mr. L'Estrange

If the official concerned and the Minister stand up and withdraw what they were saying about Deputy Coogan that would be——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Everybody knows that civil servants may not rise in this House.

Mr. Molloy

An allegation was made by Deputy L'Estrange that civil servants attained their positions through political affiliations or influence——

Mr. L'Estrange

The vast majority.

Mr. Molloy

That is a false allegation and the Deputy should withdraw it.

Mr. L'Estrange

Does the Minister deny it?

Mr. Molloy

There is not an ounce of truth in it.

Mr. L'Estrange

It certainly is true. What about the chief superintendent——

Mr. Coogan

The Minister has not the head for the job but he has a hell of a neck for it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. In the interests of order, I suggest to Deputy L'Estrange that he should withdraw his statement and that if he wishes to make a complaint he may do so in the ordinary way.

Mr. L'Estrange

I have no intention of withdrawing it unless the Minister and the official concerned withdraw what they were saying about Deputy Coogan——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has no knowledge of that.

Mr. L'Estrange

When they withdraw I shall withdraw, but not until then.

Mr. Coogan

I did not hear it or I would be on my feet also.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has put it to Deputy L'Estrange that in the interests of order he should withdraw this statement.

Mr. L'Estrange

I have no intention of withdrawing. There is too much of that going on in this House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not leaving much option to the Chair.

Mr. L'Estrange

That may be so, but the official concerned and the Minister have no authority to do what they have done. I will not withdraw it because I know it to be true.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister might help in this. The Minister was heard from this part of the House to say that the Deputy had no brains to wash. I appreciate that was said in a jocose manner but it was said by the Minister. I did not hear anyone agreeing with it. I saw the Minister lean in that direction and say “the Deputy has no brains to wash”.

Mr. Molloy

The civil servant said nothing.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I did not say the civil servant said anything.

Mr. Molloy

No allegations have been made against a civil servant, then?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I would not blame a civil servant for smiling. In fact, I would not blame him for smiling at any of the bishop's jokes—it would be rather like the curate laughing at the bishop.

Mr. Molloy

The joke is all right as long as it is on the other side.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): If the Minister would withdraw his remark I think Deputy L'Estrange would withdraw his remark and we will be all a big happy family.

Dr. FitzGerald

I submit that it is not in order for the Minister to seek to involve civil servants in that kind of remark. The blame has been shared here——

Mr. Molloy

I object to this implication. I made no effort to involve the civil servants in the affairs of the House.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): There is no doubt that the Minister, addressing the civil servant, said, “the Deputy has no brains to wash”. I will say this before any tribunal.

Mr. Coogan

As the person involved, may I say that I hit the Minister and if he hits back I can take it.

Mr. Tully

I should like to point out that there are distinguished visitors in the House. Let us behave like adults. Surely we are all grown up?

Mr. Desmond

Hear, hear.

Mr. L. Belton

Will the Minister withdraw?

Mr. Molloy

If Deputy L'Estrange accepts the ruling of the Chair, I shall accepts the ruling of the Chair.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is Deputy L'Estrange withdrawing his statement about a civil servant?

Mr. L'Estrange

I have no intention of withdrawing a statement I believe to be true. I overheard the remarks of the Minister. The Minister has involved a civil servant.

Mr. Molloy

Deputy L'Estrange has made a despicable allegation. If he is not prepared to withdraw it he should not be a Member of the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

It is not a despicable allegation. The Minister has no authority to talk to an official and make accusations against any Deputy in this House. The Minister is not going to cast aspersions on any Fine Gael Deputy.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): On a point of order, there is no doubt that the Minister's remarks, jocose or otherwise, gave rise to this incident. In the interests of decorum, I suggest that he be man enough to withdraw and I suggest that Deputy L'Estrange should then withdraw.

Dr. FitzGerald

Hear, hear.

Mr. Coogan

I was involved in this. I hit the Minister and he hit me.

Mr. Corish

Much ado about nothing.

Mr. Molloy

The only thing I object to very strongly are the allegations made by Deputy L'Estrange against civil servants who accompanied me to the House and who have sat here for many hours listening to a debate which has largely been repetitious. Deputy Coogan made a minimal contribution to the debate; in fact, most of the contributions consisted of jokes about country councillors being brainwashed. At the conclusion of the Deputy's few words, and as an aside to the officials here who were about to leave, I said, "some of them have no brains to wash". I did not make a specific reference to Deputy Coogan or anybody else, but if any offence has been taken to the statement I made I will withdraw it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will Deputy L'Estrange now withdraw his remarks?

Mr. L'Estrange

If the Minister has withdrawn his remark I will withdraw.

Debate adjourned.