Supplementary Vote No. 40 is being taken with the main Vote.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 40: Industry and Commerce (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.
—(Deputy Donegan.)
I had hoped to have the opportunity of dealing as comprehensively as possible with the points raised during the debate. Unfortunately, due to the shenanigans of Deputy L'Estrange we have lost a half hour. I shall endeavour, however, to try to cover what I stressed earlier are the most important contributions being made by my Department to the various matters that I look on as being extremely serious. Before we adjourned for Question Time I was dealing with prices and I shall return to that matter later.
Industrial development and industrial employment, and the effect of redundancy, to which I naturally referred in my introductory remarks, were also referred to by a number of Deputies.
Deputy Tully said that the Minister in his speech offered no prospects for the redundant workers. He stressed the fact that the creation of new industry, irrespective of where created, was not any great consolation to people who were losing their employment due to redundancy. The situation is, despite the best efforts of all the State agencies to keep industry going, despite the efforts of Fóir Teoranta, which have specific responsibility to aid viable industry and provide funds to help them be maintained, we still have the situation where there have been redundancies and there will be redundancies for some time.
As I stated in my opening remarks, the firm plan of the Industrial Development Authority, who are responsible to me and who are working under my aegis, is to create 55,000 new industrial jobs in the coming five years. The total redundancies over that period have been estimated as 17,000 so that there will be created in that period a net increase of 38,000 new jobs. I indicated that while we expect the falling off which Deputy Donegan envisaged at the end of a given period the redundancies will exceed the amount projected by the IDA. I will, as I indicated in my opening remarks, have to come back to the House before the end of the financial year with a Supplementary Estimate for the IDA in order to enable them to pay for the increased efforts they will be making in Europe, the US and all over the world to generate new industry here. As I indicated, the manpower in each of the areas in which the IDA have offices at present is being increased in order to effect this increased generation of industry.
There is no doubt that the situation in the north-east part of this country and the unfortunate events of two weeks ago in this city must be seen to have had an effect on the potential investment of industrialists here. The conduct of subversives has militated against the industrial development of our State. Sufficient note is not taken of the efforts by the Government, through the Industrial Development Authority, in trying to generate fresh industry here. The IDA are at present intensifying their efforts to attract foreign investment to the country. They are confident of achieving the target of 55,000 new jobs over the next five years. It is believed that even achieving that target may not be sufficient. This is why it is necessary to increase the generation of interest here. Deputy Donegan had a lot to say about my decision some months ago in relation to the Prices (Amendment) Act, 1971, in withdrawing the section dealing with the control of new house prices.
Section 3.
Yes, section 3. Anybody looking at section 3 now will see that there is no reference to new house prices. I want to quote what I said at that time on the Committee Stage of that Bill on the 11th July last, in volume 262, column 1179:
May I say that the specific reason for my wishing to delete the section —I hinted at it a moment ago when dealing with the point raised by Deputy Donegan—is because of the impossibility of incorporating a sufficiently comprehensive control over the price of new houses in a measure like this. The Minister for Local Government and I had discussions about this and we found that the task would be exceedingly difficult and very time-consuming.
The position was that it would have delayed quite substantially, in order to cover the intricacies of controlling the price of new houses, my coming to the House with the Prices Bill which was so necessary. I indicated that the position then was that the Minister for Local Government would formulate the arrangements necessary to enable an effective system of control to be prepared.
That is going on at present. The implications of the withdrawal of section 3 were over-stressed by Deputy Donegan. He cast aspersions on the credibility of my colleague, the Minister for Local Government, which were completely without foundation. It was rather unfortunate that his remarks should have been put on the record.
Deputy Tully, Deputy Donegan and Deputy Bruton referred to my slowness in sitting down to negotiate a lease with Tara Mines Limited regarding the ore body in the Navan area. All of them questioned the reasons why I should be so reluctant to make a final decision in this regard. I have on more than one occasion outlined in the House that there are two different problems here. The first is in regard to a court case to which each of the Deputies referred. The second is the fact that at present I have an inter-departmental committee preparing a report of recommendations regarding the changing of the fiscal implications in this and making recommendations to me regarding the proper approach to royalties and the various other considerations which have to be taken into account when allocating a lease.
Deputy Donegan conceded that it was understandable that I should endeavour to get more for this country out of the ore body that lies there than appears to have occurred up to now. We share the view, as far as policy is concerned, that the State should get its full share from the licences and that licences should be given to the people with the capacity to prospect.
We all share that view.
Deputy Donegan went on to say that my policy in relation to mining was a disaster. Naturally. I do not share this view with him. Deputy Tully said the Minister's hands were clean but I heard a quotation similar to Deputy Donegan's quotation. It was reported to me recently from a collection of speeches made at a function here in town in which the Minister and the Government were attacked very seriously for this.
The case is now being made that it is possible for the Minister for Industry and Commerce to negotiate a lease with Tara Mines with whom I have promised I will negotiate. When I originally introduced a compulsory order to take over the rights of the Nevinstown Mine, the matter which is the subject of court proceedings. I did so fully believing that the whole ore body in that area would be required to make an economic processing of the ore body there possible. This is still my view, despite what is being contended now and what I personally feel is being wrongly contended and should not be contended until such time as the judge's decision has been given. My reason for using the powers that I had at that time was that I believed I needed to be in a position to negotiate a lease for that area together with the rest in order to achieve satisfactory royalties, on the basis that the lease would be for a viable mining operation.
Surely that means that Nevinstown on its own could not be a viable operation?
I believe that. On the other hand, the people who now want to negotiate the separate lease with me were the people who told me originally that the area that did not include Nevinstown would not be viable.
They have travelled a long way since that.
It may be. I am as mindful as I should be as Minister for Industry and Commerce that there should not be an unnecessary delay in this. Nevertheless, I want to take no action which could put me out of court in regard to the legal proceedings in this connection.
Will the Minister say if he hopes to have the report from the committee in the near future, because, according to what the Minister says now, even if the decision was given by the courts it would still be held up pending a recommendation?
For the last number of months I have been pressing to have this inter-departmental report to hand. It will be understood that here is one specific type of report that a Minister can justifiably press for, because the membership of that interdepartmental committee comes under the aegis of various Ministers. I have certainly asked them to speed this up, and my latest information is that they hope to be in a position to present this to me very early in the New Year. I even stressed that I want "very early in the New Year" to mean what anybody would expect it to mean. Naturally I have been waiting for the court decision, as Deputy Tully says, since the end of August.
Deputy Donegan, in talking about insurance, referred to the situation which arose in the early 1960s when an Irish insurance company became insolvent, and he warned against the danger of a possible recurrence. It would be extremely wrong to suggest that any Irish insurance company is at present in danger of insolvency. A strict watch is kept over the accounts of Irish insurance companies by the Department, and it is possible to say confidently that, without exception, they are completely solvent. In view of the fact that mention was made of it I think it is as well for me to clear that point up so that no implication of danger of insolvency will be hurled about.
Deputy Tully referred to the operations of Fóir Teoranta and to Crannac Teoranta in his own town. He said that when Fóir Teoranta were approached originally they were extremely forthcoming and were as helpful as he could possibly expect them to be. Fóir, of course, come under the aegis of the Department of Finance, but it might be as well at this stage to say that I do not think that such a State-sponsored body should be seriously criticised for being careful in the allocation of State money.
If Crannac had to close down because the money which they had been promised had not materialised we would all look very foolish.
Agreed, if the money that had been promised had not materialised, but the Deputy mentioned that Fóir, which had been forthcoming as far as promises and assurances were concerned were very slow in regard to the money and that the money is only trickling in at present. The Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce would be leaving themselves open to attack—and we have had this type of attack on previous occasions —if any State-sponsored body were lax in properly tying up the allocation of money.
When the decision was made to give the money, surely there was no excuse for a four months' delay.
The Deputy will appreciate that it is necessary to ensure that in the allocation of public money everything is properly tied up legally. Neither the Deputy nor I are legal people but we do know—at least I know from my experience not only as a Minister but as a Deputy—that certain precautions must be built in. The Crannac people, to whom all credit is due for their efforts getting together to maintain this industry, were working at all stages in the full knowledge that they had the backing of Fóir Teoranta. They knew the money was there; it was a question of ironing out the nitty gritty bits.
Confirmation from the bank could not be got, but Fóir Teoranta were most helpful.
Time is running out. Deputy Tully also referred to prices display orders. As I said yesterday, these orders required display by retailers of prices charged for eggs, potatoes, certain cuts of beef, of mutton, of pork and of bacon, oranges, butter and certain types of flour. The National Prices Commission have under consideration at present the addition of further commodities to this order. Those display orders are there for the purpose of enabling the housewife from a reasonably short but representative list to get an idea of the range of prices being charged in a particular shop as against the range being charged in some other shop. In any progressive retail business at present the prices being charged on marked articles are shown. The National Prices Commission are not likely to recommend a great number of additional prices to me.
Deputy Tully raised the question of the price and quality of coal. The impression I got was that Polish coal was being sold at the same price as English coal. We have no evidence of any unauthorised increase in coal prices. I have been checking this matter since the Deputy mentioned it this morning to find out whether we had received such complaints. The average person buying two stone or four stone of coal does not know whether that coal is Polish or English. I will have this matter examined.
I believe there is something wrong. I would be glad if the Minister checked it.
Deputy P. Barry spoke about the high cost of motor insurance and about unequal taxation on policy holders. It is accepted that motor insurance premiums should be put on an equitable basis. There is a report from the insurance committee. I have indicated that I hope to be able to analyse it immediately after Christmas and to have it published towards the end of January. The object will be to get rid of the major inequalities. There does not seem to be any prospect of keeping overall premium levels from rising in line with increasing costs generally. This is not what is being talked about. The loadings which are becoming so effective on the younger age groups are being discussed widely. There might appear to be some justification for lowering premiums when a person or his car gets old. Some people will say that a person who is getting older will travel more slowly. There is no guarantee about that. Insurance companies cannot be expected to consider that seriously. The record of a man's driving life is something that should be taken into consideration. That does not arise in relation to the under 20 or under-25 years of age group who are seeking insurance cover.
Deputy P. Barry referred to Verolme Dockyard. I am in constant touch with the Minister for Transport and Power with a view to securing orders for ships to be built at Verolme. The Minister for Transport and Power is putting constant pressure on the State shipping companies. It must be remembered that the needs of the shipping companies must be taken into account. They may not always need new ships when Verolme need new orders.
Deputy P. Barry also spoke about stamp trading. Deputy P. Barry and other Deputies worry, as I do, about stamp trading. I have studied the grocery report issued some time ago about restrictive practices and uncomplimentary references were made to stamp trading. The Fair Trade Commission some years ago issued a report on petrol distribution. They also referred to stamp trading. I am of the view that stamps must, of necessity, have an effect on prices. I have asked my Department to prepare legislation. They are in the course of preparing legislation to deal with stamp trading.
Deputy M. O'Leary was generous in a sympathetic way to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Before Question Time I questioned the genuineness of his sympathy with me and his castigation of the Minister for Finance. In relation to the allegations he made, he attributed almost all price increases to the effects of VAT. This shows up the genuineness and the justification of his complaints. The Deputy said that the Minister had given no sign of the fact that he was aware of the necessity for regional industrial development and the generation of industry away from the east coast. It would appear to me that the Deputy has not been studying the programmes and plans of the IDA which were issued over the past 12 months.
Surely the Minister is not claiming responsibility. The only region he has ever heard of is Laois-Offaly.
We had a quiet morning. It is a pity the Deputy was not in here to contribute to the debate.
I read your speech.
The rapidity of the Minister's transfer from prices to regional planning amazes me.
I dealt with prices.
(Interruptions.)
The
Minister must be allowed to reply to the debate.
I told the members of the commission to keep away from the Minister and they might succeed.
I accept responsibility for the creation of the National Prices Commission. It is interesting to find that Deputy Desmond has now taken the responsibility of giving them their instructions. I presume that they will give due credit to him.
(interruptions.)
The Irish Independent did more to keep down prices than the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
Since I set up the National Prices Commission they have done their work diligently and efficiently. I have accepted all their recommendations up to now. They have made it clear in all of their reports that prices cannot be kept from rising as long as costs, including wages, are rising. The Prices Commission can be described as a broadly-based body. It includes representatives of workers and consumers. Their observations merit close attention.
Deputy M. O'Leary in a peculiar remark about the much-travelled Minister for Industry and Commerce——
That was a compliment.
I do not appreciate backhanded compliments.
The Minister should be grateful for small mercies.
I have only a few minutes left and I want to make a few points. Deputy M. O'Leary paid me backhanded compliments about my efforts to attract fresh industry to this country. The Deputy mentioned that I had travelled around in a rather workmanlike way. I wish I could, for the sake of industry and export trade. devote more time to travelling.
I am sure the IDA would give the Minister a job.
Deputy Donegan criticised me last year on the occasion of the Estimate for not having travelled enough in my capacity as Minister for Industry and Commerce. I am satisfied that my visits to Sweden and Japan over the past 12 months, in an effort to generate industrial development here will be beneficial. The Deputy mentioned Hungary. I was not there. I was in Bulgaria in connection with trade.
I knew the Minister had been in a Communist country.
I hope to be able to report on the success of that trip.
I want to see the first Communist industry set up. You cannot trust those people.
Up to 1971 we had an adverse trade balance with Bulgaria of about £300,000 a year. Our imports were £322,000 and our exports were £9,000. I went to Bulgaria at the end of 1971. From January to September, 1972, we had a favourable balance of £130,000. So, I only wish I could travel a little more.
What made the change?
I am pleased to think—
What commodities?
This is not Question Time.
That question is repugnant to the Constitution.
That may sound like a planted question but it was Deputy O'Leary who asked it and one would not accuse him of putting a planted question. I had hoped that I could have done a similar job this year but was not able to do it. CCT sponsored a delegation led by the head of my Department about a month ago to Czechoslovakia and Poland to carry out a similar type of operation.
I did say that the country had cause to be grateful for the Minister's immunity to travel sickness.
The Deputy did not quite say that. He is being rather facetious. Deputy Bruton talked about our high unemployment figure. There is no getting away from that fact. We have never endeavoured to cover up that fact. That is why I say our future depends on our being able to generate more industry, to improve prices in agriculture—one of the main reasons why we were most anxious to get into the EEC. I am satisfied and I think most people on the other side of the House will agree that the fruits of membership will accrue to us.
Deputy Bruton wanted projected figures for areas under the IDA plan broken down into towns in order that they might be tied in with local county council developments. The arrangement whereby a county development team headed by the county manager will work in each county in close liaison with regional managers should get this type of operation off the ground. The board of the Industrial Development Authority did think initially in terms of earmarking particular developments for particular towns on the lines suggested by the Deputy but it was considered that this would work against the broad idea of generating industrial development in each region. The final decision to have it in various regions was a far better one.
That is not an answer
Deputy Bruton also said that there had not been any small industry grants in County Meath. In the short time that I have at my disposal since he made the case I have been able to get figures which indicate that there were grants approved in Meath in 1971 for small industries.
That is since 1970.
The Deputy mentioned 1972.
I said 1957 to 1970.
Would the Minister give the figure for 1971?
In 1969-70, five; 1970-71, six; 1971-72, four—four small industries that have been grant-aided— not cash, now. The allegation was up to 1972.
The Minister has not got the employment content?
No. They are small industries.
I know two and there are five employed in the two.
This is the type of thing the Deputy was talking about. Deputy Bruton also compared the economic situation in Meath with the situation in Counties Monaghan and Cavan and endeavoured to make the justification which everybody in a non-designated county makes in this regard. My own constituency runs along the banks of the Shannon. Deputies from Wexford make the same point. There is no point in having a designation arrangement which takes from designated areas any little advantage they may have in attracting industries. Deputy Bruton and Deputy O'Leary referred to what I was doing to take industrial development from the industrialised east over to the west. The designation of areas in the east would not be the way to prevent that.
North Meath could hardly be described as industrialised.
North Meath could hardly be described as the west.
It is as poor as many parts of the west.
The Deputy quoted figures today according to which there are roughly 350 unemployed in the Navan and Kells areas. Following the licensing of these 500 jobs in Navan, they will have to be drawing from the other areas.
(Interruptions.)
The Minister mentioned an agreement to finish by a certain time. The Minister might be allowed to do so, so as to allow the business of the House to be dealt with.
I have endeavoured to cover as many points as possible. Undoubtedly, the Estimate is a very important one. The money required for health, education, local government, social welfare, and so on has to be generated through the activities of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Transport and Power. The Estimate for Industry and Commerce is extremely important. I am sorry that I had to deal so speedily with the points raised in the debate. Deputy Tully did ask me to communicate with him. If there are other points that Deputies have raised and which I have not dealt with as adequately as possible, we will endeavour to communicate with the Deputies concerned.
Motion to refer back, by leave, withdrawn.
Vote put and agreed to.