asked the Minister for Justice if he will make a statement concerning his recent speech on the issuing of identity cards to combat teenage drinking.
70.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Teenage Drinking.
69.
asked the Minister for Justice if he proposes to introduce regulations to control illegal teenage drinking.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 69 and 70 together.
The Intoxicating Liquor (General) Act, 1924, prohibits the sale of intoxicating liquor for consumption "on" or "off" the premises to persons under 18. I have no doubt that the Garda endeavour to enforce the law in the matter but there are inherent difficulties in enforcing a law which hinges on an age limit. I am not sure what kind of regulations the Deputy has in mind but I would like to repeat what I have said before, namely, that the problem of drinking by young persons is a social one and I believe that regulations or police action in a matter like this can at best have a marginal effect.
In a recent speech I said that suggestions that young persons should have identity cards before they could be served with drink have been made and are being examined. That continues to be the position.
Will the Minister agree that a law, the terms of which are not being applied, is a very poor law, to say the least of it?
I presume the Deputy is referring to the prohibition on drinking under the age of 18.
I am referring to the difficulty in the application of this law which the Minister has indicated. I would suggest that something must be done about it immediately.
At the moment there is a prohibition on the sale of intoxicating liquor to persons under 18 years of age. It is an offence for a publican who, knowing that a person is under 18 years, sells intoxicating liquor to him. It is extremely difficult to prove knowledge in that case, in other words, to prove that the publican had knowledge that the age of the customer was such that it was illegal to sell him drink. That is not readily apparent visually to the publican. The Deputy will see that there would be difficulty in proving it. To remove the requirement that the publican must knowingly serve drink to a person under 18 years before he commits an offence, so as to create what we call an absolute offence, would be an imposition on publicans that would be unjust. It would mean that a publican, having been assured by a customer that he was 20 or 21 years, would have committeed an offence if it turned out afterwards that the customer was under the legal age, although the publican would have been quite bona fide in assuming that he was above the legal age. That is the difficulty. It is a question of being able to prove that the publican had knowledge of the customer's age. In any cases where the Garda can adduce such proof, or where information is given to them that there are abuses in the law in this area, steps are taken. I am glad to say that in some towns there has been community action to end this abuse. As I said, this is essentially a social problem and, until the community moves to solve it, the law has to be treated as it is now.
The Minister is expressing sensitivity for the rights of publicans which is not shared by the parents of the teenagers who are being supplied——
This is an argument.
Would the Minister suggest to the Garda that they should visit public houses and lounge bars in Dublin at least once a year and challenge children of 15 and 16 years who are there, and put the onus on them of proving what their age is?
That is a separate question.
The Deputy suggests that I am being sensitive on behalf of the publicans. In fact, I am being sensitive about the legal rights of a group of citizens. I am sensitive that we will put them in a legally impossible position. That must be taken into account. The Garda visit public houses regularly. As the Deputy will appreciate, when they get information that an abuse is taking place they visit with a particular point in mind. This is where community action comes into the matter. This is essentially a social problem for the community to solve.
Does the Minister intend consulting with the Licensed Vintners' Association on this matter? This is a very serious problem.
That is a separate question.
I am aware of the very serious problem of alcoholism in our society. The Deputy will be glad to know that I have had discussions with the Licensed Vintners' Association within the last six weeks. Previous to that I had met the licensed vintners' assistants union for discussions. This was one of the topics discussed.
Did the Minister make any progress?
We discussed the problem and the various avenues to be explored towards solving them. These, as I indicated in my reply, are under examination.