Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Mar 1977

Vol. 297 No. 5

National Agricultural Advisory, Education and Research Authority Bill, 1976: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Kitt

Last Thursday I was dealing with directives and their relevance to this Bill. Farmers are anxious to get information and advice about the directives and it was envisaged that socio-economic advisers would be appointed for that purpose. However, that has not been the evolution and it is being left to the agricultural services and the staffs of county committees to deal with these directives. It is very disappointing to discover it is apparently not proposed to appoint any socio-economic advisers. It seems somewhat ironic that these should be omitted from a Bill of this nature. I should like the Minister to comment on that situation.

Section 15 transfers to the proposed authority the advisory functions at present operated by the Minister's Department and the county committees of agriculture. The authority will be obliged to orientate its advisory services in accordance with the provisions in section 15. Under clause (g) the authority may:

Adopt measures to ensure that those engaged in agriculture—

(i) are fully informed as expeditiously as possible of schemes and facilities for the development of agriculture operated by the Minister and by other agencies.

There is nothing in this section about expanding the advisory services and there is no prospect of better advisory services. The Minister and his Department seem to be attempting to take complete control. They are taking away power from local bodies instead of giving more power to them. The method of financing is being changed. That is a very disturbing feature of this Bill. With regard to representation, a board will be established consisting of a chairman and not more than 23 ordinary members. With certain exceptions the members will be nominated by the Minister. With regard to the exceptions, at least one member will be appointed by the Minister for Education and one on the nomination of the General Council of County Committees of Agriculture. This is very shabby treatment of public representatives. Only one member out of 24 will be a public representative nominated by the General Council. I believe elected representatives should have a majority because they have to answer to the people. Giving only 50 per cent representation to public representatives is, as I say, very shabby treatment.

The main problem for the agricultural committees is that they need more money and more staff. That is the sort of problem that should be dealt with in this Bill. The number of agricultural and horticultural instructors in each county should be increased. The number is ridiculously low at the moment. I would ask the Minister to consider the plight of the agricultural graduate. He cannot get employment because of the quota system. He cannot get employment in State or semi-State bodies because experience is required in the majority of cases. Employment as a temporary instructor is a stepping stone to other employment, particularly in State and semi-State bodies.

Under section 53 certain properties will be transferred to the authority. Those properties will include the Agricultural College at Athenry, Clonakilty Agricultural College, Ballyhaise Agricultural College and Kildalton Agricultural and Horticultural College plus the Cereal Station at Ballinacurra. I would like to know the method of financing these colleges. I am concerned about Mellowes College in Athenry which is in my constituency. I would like the Minister to let us know how it is proposed to finance the workings of such colleges. In addition, I should like to repeat a call that has been made for a faculty of agriculture in UCG. It should be obvious to the Minister that we have the back-up facilities in the county; we have the agricultural colleges, the research station at Belclare near Tuam and we have all that is necessary for the practical work required of a student studying agriculture. At the moment such a student from the Galway area does two years at UCG and completes his degree at UCD. We have the facilities for students to do the full course in Galway University.

I do not agree with the statements of some Government speakers in the debate last Thursday who said that this Bill will give confidence to the farming community. I think the opposite will be the case. This Bill comes after severe taxation measures have been imposed on the farming community and at a time when the co-operative movement is trying to cope with taxation imposed on it in the 1976 budget. The Bill does not deal with the many problems that exist in agriculture. I agree with the Minister that there may be weaknesses in the present system but this measure will not improve the situation. I hope the Minister will accept amendments at a later stage.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Clinton)

I am sorry to have to say that I have often been more impressed with contributions from the Opposition than I have been on this occasion. I should like to reply to a few points raised by Deputy Kitt. He complains of what he calls the shabby treatment given to the county committees of agriculture and he is not impressed that they will have a representation of one out of the 24 members. The point is they will have at least one and they are the only organisation to have such a guarantee. It is the first time that the General Council of Committees of Agriculture have been given statutory recognition and this has not been acknowledged by any of the speakers.

Deputy Kitt says that the only thing wrong with county committees is that they need more staff and he points out that agricultural graduates cannot get jobs. They may need more staff but when we are reorganising the whole service it is not the right time to put people all over the place. We have more agricultural graduates in Ireland per 1,000 holdings than any other country in Europe. I know that the services are organised in a different way in other countries but it is a fact that we have more agricultural graduates than European countries.

Mr. J. Gibbons

There are 3,000 farmers in Luxembourg. The Minister should not play with figures. We are talking about a rural nation.

Mr. Clinton

What I am saying is quite correct; we have more agricultural graduates per number of holdings employed in Ireland than any other country in Europe. The White Paper outlining the proposals contained in the Bill was published in April, 1975 and, on the whole, it was very well received and the public comment was generally favourable. I know that there was a small number of minor criticisms that amounted to very little. As the then Chairman of the County Committees of Agriculture, Deputy Callanan thought he had to complain that in the course of reorganisation the services were reducing the powers of the committees. However, he omitted to acknowledge that for the first time the county committees were getting statutory recognition——

Mr. Callanan

It was the General Council of Committees of Agriculture.

Mr. Clinton

We are talking about the head body of the county committees. It is not possible individually to represent 27 county committees on any board.

Mr. Callanan

It is statutory recognition with no powers.

Mr. Clinton

If they are represented on the board that will organise and run the services they will have powers through their own representatives. They are being given a guarantee and they are the only organisation who have been given this. It was as a result of representations made by people such as Deputy Callanan and it was also recognition of the fact that they have been so involved in these services during the years. I found it very difficult to understand the points put by Deputy Gibbons because before he left office he had proposals before his Government. The committees were to be treated in exactly the same way as they are being treated in this Bill.

Mr. J. Gibbons

There were proposals in existence but they were not my proposals.

Mr. Clinton

It is fair to say that the proposals had reached a stage where they were being submitted to the Government but a general election was declared before the Government had time to pronounce on them.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister should have more confidence in his own proposals.

Mr. Clinton

They were exactly the same as the proposals contained in the Bill but they differed in one vital way in that they were bringing the services directly under the civil service. It was suggested in Deputy Gibbons' memorandum——

Mr. J. Gibbons

It was Dr. Spain's memorandum.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Clinton

We have always refrained in this House from mentioning people by name who cannot defend themselves——

Mr. J. Gibbons

Is the Minister suggesting that it should be defended?

Mr. Clinton

The memorandum was there and I had to look at it. There was pressure to do something about the reorganisation of the advisory services. There were numerous reports on the matter. I am giving the Deputy credit for the fact that he did a lot of work on this and he had these proposals ready for submission to the Government——

Mr. J. Gibbons

Including the suppression of the institute? Nonsense.

Mr. Clinton

I am not trying to put anything across here that is not true.

Mr. J. Gibbons

There was no structure of jobs for the boys.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House should hear the Minister without this constant interruption.

Mr. Clinton

It is very difficult to deal with this matter when I am being interrupted constantly by Deputy Gibbons. The fact is that these proposals had reached the advanced stage of being submitted to the Government with the approval of Deputy Gibbons. He did not include the Agricultural Institute.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Old scores are being settled.

Mr. Clinton

It is not a question of old scores. It is a question of what was on the record. Only Deputy Gibbons would come into the House and say that I was stripping county committees of every vestige of responsibility when the powers being left with the county committees are the same as he proposed when I took office. He cannot deny this because I have the documents. Recently he said he would abolish committees altogether. The Opposition should make up their minds in regard to this matter.

Mr. J. Gibbons

We handed over to a crowd of hacks.

Mr. Clinton

He was so dissatisfied with the performance that he was going to do something about it and his proposals were at an advanced stage. Subsequently he said he did not go far enough, that he would abolish them.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The advisory services are wrongly set up and I am sticking to that.

Mr. Clinton

Fianna Fáil are split on this issue. The Bill proposes that 50 per cent are to be elected to the committee and the other 50 per cent not. Numerous Opposition speakers criticised me for this proposal. There seems to be confusion in relation to the matter.

Mr. Callanan

The Minister's party were most vocal about the matter.

Mr. Clinton

My party are not unanimous in regard to the composition of county committees. There are several views on the matter and I have to listen to these views. It is fair to have half of the members elected and half of them not elected. Two Galway Deputies spoke about the terrible thing that I was proposing in providing that only 50 per cent would be elected.

Mr. Callanan

That is right.

Mr. Clinton

My information is that only ten out of the 20 already there are elected, that Galway are doing what we are proposing. The only difference between what I am proposing and what has been done in Galway is that I propose to ask the rural organisations to nominate the non-elected half of the committee. This is what Deputy Gibbons proposed. I proposed that the rural organisations should be represented on county committees of agriculture because I though it would benefit their work. At the time my proposal was seconded by a well-known Member of this House, Deputy P. J. Burke, and it was unanimously accepted. The proposal worked well because they were not party politicians. They were close to the work of the committee and made a great contribution. For the same reason I am proposing that that balance should be followed.

Mr. Callanan

We are concerned about the percentage of public representatives.

Mr. Clinton

We could argue about percentages. There is no doubt that there are a number of views on this matter and they are not confined to the Opposition. If we leave it to be done otherwise than through the nomination of the rural bodies it will be done on a party-political basis and we will have a similar set up to the one we already have.

During the discussion Deputy Finn described the way in which Fianna Fáil have misused their political strength in County Mayo. He said that the people who were appointed in County Mayo have no connection whatsoever with agriculture. I am prepared to admit that a number of such people on a committee could be of benefit to that committee. I have no fixation about the composition of committees. The people who depend for a livelihood on farming are the people we should be concerned with because they must run the show in a sensible way. The effect of their experience on how a service will affect them should be the main consideration.

Mr. Callanan

If there is only one person on the General Council——

Mr. Clinton

I have not said that only one person will be on the General Council. That is the only thing that is being guaranteed.

Mr. Callanan

There is no guarantee at all in this.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. The Minister must be allowed to make his contribution without these continual interruptions. There will be ample opportunity to discuss this measure on the various other Stages of the Bill.

Mr. Clinton

I would like to know how Deputy Gibbons arrives at the conclusion that there will be a score of Fine Gael hacks on the committee.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Look at any other committee the Minister set up.

Mr. Clinton

These are all people nominated——

Mr. J. Gibbons

Nominated by the Minister.

Mr. Clinton

——by the rural organisations and by the various people we have mentioned in the White Paper and in the explanatory memorandum. What Deputy Gibbons is doing is accusing all these organisations of being nominated by Fine Gael. I would love to think that that was the position, but I strongly suspect that it is not. The Deputy is telling these organisations that the only result of their nominations and recommendations is Fine Gael. It does not make sense.

What I am trying to do is to improve the quality of the committees and to have a good board to run the new organisation. If I were not concerned about the welfare of farming and of farmers I could sit back and do nothing about all this. I am trying to do this because I believe it will improve the service. I am trying to bring in as many agencies as possible who are at present providing a service in one way or another to Irish agriculture and for no other reason. I want all the centres that were previously used by An Foras Talúntais, by our own schools, by the State-aided schools that do not belong to the Department of Agriculture, to be power houses of education and knowledge of farming and show their effects in a wide area around them.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Cod.

Mr. Clinton

I would ask Deputy Gibbons has he been impressed or has he not by the effects of the Moore Park centre on a very wide area around Moore Park, on the standard of dairy farming, and by the results of the knowledge that came from that centre being properly utilised?

Mr. J. Gibbons

When the dead hand of Fine Gael falls on Moore Park that is the end of the enterprise.

Mr. Clinton

I do not know how Deputy Gibbons can say this when his proposals were bringing the entire service, with the exception of the Agricultural Institute, directly under his Department and, as he said, under an assistant secretary.

Mr. J. Gibbons

We are talking about the institute now.

Mr. Clinton

The people I am appointing are not civil servants; they are public servants.

Mr. J. Gibbons

We know whom the Minister is appointing and we know who will be the chairman of the board as well.

Mr. Clinton

The only one appointed—and this is quite normal procedure—is the first director. There was great complaint that I appointed all these people and that they could only be Fine Gael hacks. If I do not appoint them they cannot come into existence. Somebody has to appoint them, but they are nominated by the various bodies throughout the country of whom the members of the Opposition are so critical and say they can only be hacks if they are nominated by these people. I cannot accept this and, as I say, the staff are public servants not civil servants. I am not afraid of civil servants, but I will say this much, that there are civil servants in that Department that the people could never repay for the service they have given to Irish agriculture and Deputy Gibbons knows that as well as I do.

Mr. J. Gibbons

I acknowledge that.

Mr. Clinton

And if their salaries were doubled for the rest of their lifetime they would not be fully repaid for the amount of work and effort they have put in. They are the greatest friends the farmers have, and that is a more open house now than it has ever been before. I want it to remain an open house and I want teamwork, not unhealthy rivalry between a whole pile of organisations, services and agencies that are providing facilities for agriculture.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The rivalry is over. The institute has been killed.

Mr. Clinton

It is time that this popular pastime of slating civil servants stopped. They are paid to help in the provision of an overall service and they help to a very considerable extent.

Mr. Callanan

I did not slate civil servants at all.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The whole trend of the criticism was that this valuable service was going to be destroyed by civil service influence and effects on it.

Mr. Callanan

It is not an autonomous body.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

Nothing could be further from the truth. I want to deal with this matter, a Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Who is the grey eminence behind the Minister? Who will be the first chairman of the board?

Mr. Clinton

There never was a Minister in my job who had not a great many people behind him. He could not carry on if he had not such people behind him giving him valuable service and assistance.

Mr. J. Gibbons

There is no justification for destroying the institute, the one respectable institution the Minister had.

Mr. Clinton

There is nobody in this House, and I include Deputy Gibbons in this, who knows any more than I know about the institute or who values their work more than I do. I have been in every one of their centres throughout the country and know the service they have provided over the years. I know they will continue to provide a service, and if they do not continue to provide it it will be the fault of the people who are put on this board, who are nominated to this board by all the organisations in this country who have a responsibility for the performance of the farmers.

Mr. J. Gibbons

It will be nobody's fault but the Minister's.

Mr. Clinton

Deputy Gibbons cannot continue to say this, and I know he is not in the least sincere in what he is saying. He is adopting this attitude purely for party political purposes to pretend that here we are trying to destroy a service that is in existence.

Mr. Callanan

Is that a general accusation?

Mr. Clinton

I am talking across the House to the spokesman for Agriculture on the Opposition benches, as I am entitled to do because he is making allegations across the House at me and has done so in the course of his speech. When I became Minister I found this set of proposals ready for consideration by the Government.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister is getting great value out of that.

Mr. Clinton

I want to put facts before the people. I was quite surprised to find that while the reorganisation he proposed dealt with the education and advisory services, it did not include the Agricultural Institute; of course the Deputy is right in that. I think it is vitally important to include the Agricultural Institute. There is nothing that gives the same amount of stimulation as research, and I want that stimulation to get closer to the advisory service. I want it to be an overall service.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The kiss of death.

Mr. Clinton

I am convinced that the Agricultural Institute must be part of any reorganisation of these services. The institute are concerned with applied research and development, and obviously they should be very closely associated with training and advisory work. Deputy Callanan told us that at one time he was in favour of putting these services together into one organisation. Again, that indicates that there are two schools of thought in this regard on the Opposition benches. He would favour that and so would any practical farmer. But I cannot accept the claim that in putting the Agricultural Institute in the same organisation as the education, training and advisory services, I am taking away the institute's autonomy and freedom. This claim is an utter and total misrepresentation of the situation.

Mr. Callanan

The new body will not be autonomous.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. Deputies must allow the Minister to continue.

Mr. Clinton

If the Deputy will allow me to proceed I think I can show that there will be complete and absolute freedom for research workers in the reorganised services. The Minister for Agriculture has responsibility for the development of all aspects of the industry. He must satisfy himself that the necessary resources are applied to whatever sector or activity needs support at any time. It is provided in sections 32 and 44 that the board shall submit their programme annually to the Minister for approval together with an estimate of the cost. When the Minister has satisfied himself that the programme is adequate for the needs of the industry he will give the authority to go ahead. Indeed, subsection (3) of section 32 provides that the board shall come back to the Minister for approval for any change in the programme which, subsequently, is considered necessary or desirable. The researchers, under the new authority, will be every bit as free as are the institute in carrying out whatever research is agreed by the board and by the Minister.

Mr. Callanan

And the Minister.

Mr. J. Gibbons

This is poppy-cock.

Mr. Clinton

At present the Board of the Agricultural Institute come to the Ministers for Finance and Agriculture to discuss programmes and to seek whatever money can be afforded.

Mr. Callanan

The point is that they are not bound to do that.

Mr. Clinton

Of course they are. Is the Deputy saying that there should be no onus on them to reveal to the Ministers concerned the reason for which the money is required? This work is entirely funded by the State.

Mr. Callanan

I am not saying that.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Just tie their hands behind their backs.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

What we have been listening to from the Opposition is the result of people, who do not wish to see change in any sector, working on Deputy Gibbons. These are people who wish to be left alone quietly and never to make progress.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Leave the institute alone because it is the one organisation that is working well.

Mr. Clinton

It would be wrong and even silly for a Minister for Agriculture to interfere in the day-to-day conduct of research or in the publication of the results of research. Last year grants from my Department amounted to 65 per cent of the total cost of providing services that are to be integrated under this Bill. I have neither the desire nor the intention of insisting that he who pays the piper shall call the tune. A Minister for Agriculture could be charged justifiably with evasion of responsibility if, apart from the preponderant contribution towards the expenses of the new authority which the State grants will represent, he were not concerned always with the setting of priorities in regard to what projects ought to be undertaken at any time. The Minister has the responsibility for discussing what should be priorities in a national programme for development in agriculture.

As spokesman for Agriculture for his party, Deputy Gibbons, in October last, published a pamphlet entitled What is Wrong with Irish Farming? Although this document dealt in detail with everything the Deputy considered necessary, for example, a common livestock breeding policy, the expansion of herds and flocks, the promotion of pasture development, the use of better animal nutritional techniques, a shortening of the beef production cycle, an extension of the milking season, the completion of a comprehensive soil survey and so on, the Agricultural Institute are not mentioned once in the pamphlet although that body would have a big contribution to make in attaining many of the desirable objectives set out.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Does that prove something?

Mr. Clinton

No, but I find it difficult to equate this with the Deputy's forebodings in relation to the conduct of research in the new organisation.

Mr. J. Gibbons

That is because I know who is to be in charge of the board and that is bad.

Mr. Clinton

Deputy Gibbons knows everything in advance. He is condemning all the organisations that will have such influence and input in regard to this board and into the overall organisation. He tried to give the impression that agricultural research would disappear altogether and that this reorganisation meant the end of the institute. The same tune was played, I am sorry to say, by most of the Deputies opposite.

Mr. J. Gibbons

It is written into the Bill.

Mr. Clinton

This leads me to the question of where the tune was composed. There is evidence that a vigorous campaign is in progress to have research and development detached from the proposed authority. Why should these aspects of the industry be detached in this way?

Mr. J. Gibbons

Research, by definition, must be somewhat detached.

Mr. Clinton

Research will continue with the same independence as it has enjoyed always and, I hope, will make the same contribution, if not better, as it has been making to the development of Irish agriculture.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister does not understand. However, we shall put the situation right.

Mr. Clinton

Many Opposition speakers refer to the ease with which farmers get advice from institute staff and to the part played by the staff in development work. I am aware that many institute staff like to be involved in development work. Consequently, I am amazed that Opposition Deputies have allowed themselves to be persuaded by biased arguments that the institute should not be part of the new authority. The motive behind this escapes me. However, let me restate the true position. The organisation that is being established will provide the present institute staff with a new and more effective means of contributing to the development of the agricultural industry than exists at present. The staff will be as free to get on with their work as they have been in the past. If I thought otherwise, I would not include it because I wish them to continue to have the same independence as they have always enjoyed. The fact that once each year they must discuss with the Minister for Agriculture their programmes and priorities is a normal and proper requirement.

I trust that I have reassured the Opposition Deputies on this question of freedom in regard to the carrying out of research.

Mr. Callanan

The Minister has been referring to the farming organisations but he has not been able to assure them on this question.

Mr. Clinton

Farming organisations, like any of us, can be right or can be wrong, and they can be fed prejudices the same as anybody else. I honestly believe that most people did not read this Bill sufficiently. If they did they could see all the safeguards being provided, the fact that these are all public servants and that the board is composed of people who are nominated, with the exception of the first director and the first chairman.

Another matter relating to freedom is the function of the board. Listening to speakers opposite, particularly Deputy Gibbons, one would get the impression that the board will be a collection of "yes" men. Section 26 provides for the appointment of the chairman and the members of the board. How this section could be construed as resulting in a board of "yes" men is something I cannot understand. Will the nominations from the General Council of Committees of Agriculture, the staff of the authority, the different agricultural and rural organisations, universities and so on be all "yes" men and party hacks? I would like the Opposition at some stage to tell me how this could happen. All these bodies will see this charge for what it is. In relation to the question of the appointment of political supporters to boards such as this, I challenge the Opposition to give me an instance of a Fianna Fáil Government appointing a Fine Gael Deputy to a semi-State board. I have appointed one of their Deputies to a semi-State body.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The late Deputy Stephen Barrett was appointed to a board by a Fianna Fáil Government. I have forgotten what board it was. A Fine Gael Deputy was appointed to the High Court.

Mr. Clinton

The reason I reappointed a Fianna Fáil Deputy to a board was because I inquired from the chairman of the time if he was a good member and I was told that he was one of the best members of the board.

Mr. Callanan

Thanks for the reference.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

I also appointed a Fianna Fáil Deputy as chairman of a board. In the light of this I cannot understand the bitterness of Deputy Gibbons. These things must be obvious to the Deputy. I am amazed by his attacks because the Deputy knows that what he has been saying is not true.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The flower arrangers in the Department of Foreign Affairs were appointed permanently to the staff of the civil service——

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. J. Gibbons

——and the families of ex-Fine Gael Ministers. The Minister must know that the Government is a disgrace in regard to jobbery.

An Ceann Comhairle

These interruptions are not in order.

Mr. Clinton

Would the Deputy keep to the Bill? I am giving all the material I can to prove that the Deputy's allegations are entirely without foundation. Deputy Callanan said he was worried that farmers will not have much say on the board and went so far as to imply that because section 26 says that at least one member will be on the nomination of the general council that will mean only one member. All the people who spoke from the Opposition benches made the same reference. I would not have put in "at least one member" if I meant that only one member could possibly be appointed. The Deputy would not like me to accept that implication when determining the representation of the different nominating bodies. I do not accept that farmers will have as little say on the board as the Opposition have suggested, unless all the organisations that we propose to have represented are gone to blazes and do not speak for farmers at all.

I find the Deputies opposite disagreeing among themselves as to the place committees of agriculture will have in the new organisation. Deputy Callanan and others complained that committees are being stripped of their powers and their elected representatives will have very little say. On the other hand in the pamphlet I have referred to, Deputy Gibbons stated that the advisory services need to be reorganised, that ideally they should be controlled by co-operatives, that control of the advisory services by committees of agriculture had become an absurdity because most committees are made up in part at least, by people from outside the industry. He said that this anachronism should be ended, that he had believed for a long time that the committees of agriculture system was not suitable for the employment and direction of the large advisory staff we have now and that many of the problems of the advisory service stemmed from it.

I am arranging under the Bill for staff to be employed and directed centrally within the authority, with committees having the right to monitor the service provided in their counties. Committees will also have the right to monitor the other services of the Department of Agriculture. In view of their changed role it is appropriate that farm and rural organisations should be represented on these committees.

Mr. J. Gibbons

What does "monitor" mean in that context?

Mr. Clinton

It means keeping a tag at local level on the services. This can only be done at local level. Deputy Hussey seems to be in favour of having a majority of elected representatives on the committee of agriculture. As the Deputy was not then a Member of this House he may be unaware that subsection (1) of section 42 of this Bill is taken directly from the corresponding section of the Agricultural (Amendment) Act, 1964, a measure introduced by the then Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Paddy Smith, expressly for the purpose of providing for the nomination to the committees of representatives of voluntary rural organisations who would not be county councillors. That Bill received the unanimous support of all the parties in the House. Subsequently, as I am aware most of us can recall, another Fianna Fáil Minister introduced a Bill in 1967 to repeal the 1964 Act. Because local elections were not held in the meantime that Act never came into force, but no compelling reasons were put forward in 1967 for the repeal of the 1964 Act, as no cogent arguments had been advanced in the course of this debate for the retention of the present system.

I leave it to Deputies to speculate as to why the present Opposition voted in 1967 for the repeal of a statute they enthusiastically supported three years before. That measure was sponsored by their own Minister and introduced expressly to give an opportunity to the voluntary rural organisations to be represented on committees of agriculture. Their persistence in their attitude is all the more surprising having regard to the increasing strength and influence of these bodies in the meantime. The present Bill not only revives the 1964 Act but it specifically provides for the appointment from the voluntary bodies of members who are not county councillors. This feature did not appear in the previous legislation. I am not downgrading county councillors because in the main they are responsible people, but I worked with the other blend for years and it worked extremely well. It is only for the purpose of improving the quality of these committees that I am making the present proposals. There could be a lot of discussion and argument on all sides of the house, this side as well as the opposite, as to whether the balance is correct or not. It depends on the people who come on either from the county council side or the farming side.

Mr. Callanan

Does the Minister know that some of us had a difficult job to get the 75-25 per centages and that all the opposition came from that side of the House? I am all for the rural organisation on those committees.

Mr. Clinton

The exact balance is anybody's guess but it was what my predecessor in office proposed and he must have accepted that at the time.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister should not play tricks.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

That was his idea of balance at that time and only that a general election was called——

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister should dig in the ash heap.

Mr. Clinton

That was the only thing that saved the proposals from reaching this House before mine. They were ready to go. We on this side all know the preparations that have to be made for Government consideration of these matters. There was no comeback. Unless his own Government turned down his proposals that is what would have come through.

Mr. J. Gibbons

As the Minister's predecessor said, that cock will not crow.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Mr. Clinton

Many Deputies referred to the important part the instructors have played in the development of our agriculture. The reason for the great increase in the size of the service in the last 15 to 20 years, is the fact that they did good work, but this growth has brought many problems of organisation, direction, career structure and so on. Nobody would say that any organisation should stand still or should not be looked at from the point of view of trying to improve it. I would like to remind Deputy Noonan that these problems have been known for a long time but they were not tackled. It is not good enough for Deputy Gibbons to say that proposals for reorganisation have been hanging around for years. Of course they have, but the fact is that very little was done to introduce a new structure. This Bill provides an organisation through which it will be possible to get rid of the weaknesses and problems of the existing system and in which the advisory staffs will be able to make a greater contribution than in the past. That is my hope and expectation.

Deputy J. Gibbons objects to the use of the title "instructor" for those who give advice, claiming that retaining this title shows the absence of any new ideas in the Bill. Is this a very sound argument, seeing that practically every English-speaking country uses a different title? Incidentially, the word "instructor" is not mentioned anywhere in the Bill. The term "education" would also appear to be causing Deputy Gibbons some misgivings.

Mr. J. Gibbons

It is inaccurate.

Mr. Clinton

He thinks the word "training" would be preferable. I would like in this connection to direct his attention to section 2 where education is stated to include training and cognate words are to be construed accordingly. Deputy Gibbons and one or two other Deputies complain that the Bill reminds them of the parish plan and suggest that it is out-of-date. I am not at all worried if this Bill reminds people of the parish plan because in that plan Deputy J. Gibbons, who occupied this position previously, was introducing a system in which the instructor, or parish agent as he was called, would work closely with the local people to help them improve their farming and their general situation. Twenty-five parish agents were appointed and assigned to parishes which asked for them. I remember well the attack which was mounted against the parish plan, but in spite of this not a single parish asked Deputy Dillon at the time to withdraw the parish agent even though the plan was criticised up and down the country.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The pyramid was standing on its head. Fine Gael never could grasp that idea.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

Deputy Gibbons does not like this.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

Immediately Fianna Fáil took office again the parish plan was allowed to lapse. I am convinced that the parish plan philosophy was the basis for the pilot area programme introduced later in the 12 western counties by the Fianna Fáil Government. The parish plan was the forerunner of that and it was that plan that gave the Fianna Fáil Government that followed the inspiration to do what was done.

Several Deputies complained that the Bill does not concern itself with the development of the advisory service or with the employment of agricultural graduates. While I greatly regret the current unemployment among graduates, the development of the education advisory and research branches of the new authority will be a matter for the board.

Mr. J. Gibbons

That will be a lot of consolation for the lads looking for jobs.

Mr. Clinton

This is so if they decide not to employ any more graduates but I am satisfied that that will not be their decision. I do not know of any faculty in the country that is not over-producing graduates because of the enormous increase in demand for third level education. I would expect that this will be one of the first matters that the board will attend to. Section 33 gives the board a power to appoint whatever staff they consider necessary for the authority to carry out their functions and they will employ the staff, not I. It is very wrong, if not mischievous—

Mr. J. Gibbons

What is the name of the man in the Gospels who washed his hands?

Mr. Clinton

When I want to get rid of responsibility I am washing my hands but when I appear to be bringing anything in I am filling it with Fine Gael hacks. You cannot have it both ways. Deputy Callanan knows this too.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister cannot have it anyway.

Mr. Clinton

It is wrong, if not mischievous, for Deputies opposite to say that the staff of the authority will be civil servants, thus implying that in some way this will make the staff less interested in responding to the needs of the farming community. The staff will be employed by the authority and will be public servants, not civil servants. That is a change from the proposals made by my predecessor.

Deputy Noonan's contribution seemed to be very confused. For example, he was at pains to show how damaging what he calls civil service control would be to the freedom of the advisory service and to farmer confidence in that service. He went on to say that the advisory service should be under the control of a deputy secretary. This is the confusion that I cannot understand, that it should be under the control of a deputy secretary or assistant secretary of the Department. This surely would be civil service control according to his own definition.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Not any more than section 22.

Mr. Clinton

These suggestions are the greatest nonsense. Has Deputy Noonan studied this Bill at all in order to understand what it proposes to do, or has he allowed himself to be brainwashed by biased promptings of interested parties?

Mr. J. Gibbons

That is only cleverality.

Mr. Clinton

It is a fact. He was totally confused because he was looking for two directly opposite things in the course of his speech.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister must have a very poor case if he can only fall back on cleveralities like that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

Since the board will include representatives of the farming and rural organisations, it is difficult to see how Deputies opposite can suggest the staff will be less available to farmers or to bodies such as Macra na Feirme in the future than they were in the past. How would the board allow that to happen, a board so composed and so concerned with and so close to farmers? Why would they deny access to the research services which have provided us with so much valuable material? The thing is crazy.

Many Opposition Deputies claimed that section 30 (1) (f) would make confidential information available to the Minister. The research staff's union are also making a similar claim. Indeed, Deputy Noonan went further and said this information would be available to every other Minister as well. If Deputies and other interested parties read the Bill they will see I propose to transfer certain functions to the authority which have a bearing on State and EEC expenditure. After their years in Government, Deputies opposite should know this expenditure has to be accounted for to the Committee of Public Accounts and to the EEC Commission.

As Chairman of the Limerick County Committee of Agriculture, Deputy Noonan should know that at present officers from the Department can examine all farm modernisation scheme documents in the CAO offices. They have to have this freedom. Nothing new in this regard is proposed in this Bill. He also knows that as civil servants these officers are required to respect the confidentiality of the information contained in them. He further knows civil servants do not disclose information. That is why farmers have the full confidence in the officers of my Department which I believe they have.

This section is necessary to enable those who have statutory accounting responsibility for the expenditure of State and EEC moneys to carry out their responsibility. That is all that is being sought, and it is all I would wish to have sought. I am also proposing to hand over several State properties to the authority. This section is also relevant to them. It is grossly misleading, if not dishonest, for anybody to claim this section will interfere in any way with the conduct of research work, or that it will be used to obtain for wrong purposes any information in the hands of the authority. The existence of the board, with the membership as provided for in the Bill, will reassure anybody that this cannot happen. Why would I want all these dreadful things to happen to farmers? Why should any Minister want that? Why should anybody deliberately set out to get this type of treatment for farmers in relation to what is confidential to them?

I have dealt with the most important points made during the debate. I want to stress again that, in the arrangements which this Bill provides for, the Minister and the board will settle annually the policy to be followed on agricultural education and training, advisory and research work and, when this policy is settled, the authority will be free to implement it. This is the kind of arrangement the relevant interests have been seeking to have introduced for several years. It is also the arrangement the majority of the Deputies in this House, including many on the opposite side, wish to see brought into being.

The question was also raised as to how the money would be got from the county committees of agriculture. People objected to the type of demand being made on the county committees for this money. There is nothing new in this either. The vocational education committees have been doing exactly that for as long as I remember. I was a member of a vocational education committee and chairman of a vocational education committee for quite a long time. They made their demands in the same way and the members of the county council had no option but to give them exactly what they asked for. We have the same thing in the case of the health boards. That was not Fine Gael legislation. That was not Coalition legislation. It was Fianna Fáil legislation. They provided that the health boards would simply make their demands and the elected representatives on the county councils had no say whatever and had no function except to sanction them. They could talk about the matter for a month and if they reduced it in the slightest——

Mr. J. Gibbons

Is that what monitoring means?

Mr. Clinton

I am dealing with one point at a time. If the county councils reduced the demands by any amount whatever the health boards could carry on gaily until they ran out of money and then go back to the county councils and say: "Give us the balance".

Mr. Callanan

Why not abolish the county councils?

Mr. Clinton

There is no change whatever——

Mr. Callanan

There is indeed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

——in what is being proposed here. Not the slightest. It is the same as the way money is provided for the vocational education committees, and for the health boards as they stood until we phased out the cost of the health services from the local authorities. That was the legislation Fianna Fáil introduced. It was all right when it was introduced by Fianna Fáil, but it is an outrageous thing to do to local authorities and it kicks democracy out the window when it is done by the Coalition.

Mr. Callanan

It is an outrageous thing to be done by anyone.

Mr. Clinton

The Deputy should have spoken out loudly when that legislation was being put through the House.

Mr. Callanan

I was not here at all.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister is making a very bad case. He is doing it very badly. I am surprised at him. I thought he was better than that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Clinton

I think I have dealt with everything now but, if I have not, I will be glad to deal with any other matter on Committee Stage. I have covered most of the questions raised.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister did not say why he is wrapping up the Agricultural Institute.

Mr. Clinton

Deputy Gibbons will continue to make these noises.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Disagreeable noises.

Mr. Clinton

He knows he is being thoroughly dishonest and he does not believe a word of what he is saying.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Of course I do.

Mr. Clinton

He does not believe his own criticism but he believes it will read well and that certain disgruntled people in various parts of the country will say: "Deputy Gibbons is a great fellow. He is playing our tune."

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Minister is psycho-analysing me. He is being unfair.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 62; Níl, 55.

Tá

• Barry, Peter.
• Barry, Richard.
• Begley, Michael.
• Belton, Luke.
• Belton, Paddy.
• Bermingham, Joseph.
• Bruton, John.
• Burke, Joan T.
• Burke, Liam.
• Clinton, Mark A.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Collins, Edward.
• Conlan, John F.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Cooney, Patrick M.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, Declan.
• Coughlan, Stephen.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Dockrell, Henry P.
• Dockrell, Maurice.
• Donegan, Patrick S.
• Dunne, Thomas.
• Enright, Thomas.
• Taylor, Frank.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Esmonde, John G.
• Finn, Martin.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Gilhawley, Eugene.
• Governey, Desmond.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Halligan, Brendan.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hegarty, Patrick.
• Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
• Jones, Denis F.
• Keating, Justin.
• Kelly, John.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• L'Estrange, Gerald.
• Lynch, Gerard.
• McLaughlin, Joseph.
• McMahon, Larry.
• Malone, Patrick.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• Reynolds, Patrick J.
• Ryan, John J.
• Spring, Dan.
• Staunton, Myles.
• Tully, James.
• White, James.

Níl

• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Brady, Philip A.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Brosnan, Seán.
• Browne, Seán.
• Brugha, Ruairí.
• Callanan, John.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Carter, Frank.
• Colley, George.
• Connolly, Gerard.
• Cronin, Jerry.
• Crowley, Flor.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Dowling, Joe.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Farrell, Joseph.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Fitzgerald, Gene.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
• Gallagher, Denis.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Gibbons, James.
• Haughey, Charles.
• Healy, Augustine A.
• Herbert, Michael.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Kenneally, William.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Lalor, Patrick J.
• Leonard, James.
• Lynch, Celia.
• Lynch, Jack.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Moore, Seán.
• Murphy, Ciarán.
• Nolan, Thomas.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O'Connor, Timothy.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond.
• Power, Patrick.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Timmons, Eugene.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take the next Stage of the Bill?

Mr. Kelly

Next Tuesday.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

Subject to the usual agreement.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 8th March, 1977.