Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Nov 1977

Vol. 301 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - European Communities Assembly: Motion.

Mr. Cluskey

I move:

That Dáil Éireann, in accordance with established precedents since the entry of Ireland into the European

Communities, approves the nominations of five members of the party or parties comprising the Government and five members of the party or parties comprising the Opposition, to be the delegates to the Assembly of the European Communities, pending the holding of Direct Elections to that body.

Firstly, as is proper, I should like to thank the Taoiseach for responding to a request made by me last week to let us know the Government's intention with regard to the representation in the European Parliament. The Taoiseach was courteous enough to inform me by letter that it was the intention of the Fianna Fáil Party, by virtue of their strength in this House, to take six of the ten allocated seats. That is the reason why I have submitted this motion to be debated by the House. For the purpose of this debate it is desirable to look at the history of our membership of the EEC. The Labour Party were the only party in this House who during the EEC referendum campaign opposed our entry. In doing so we fulfilled, in my view, an extremely valuable service to the country and to democracy. In the course of that campaign we pointed out some of the undesirable aspects of entry into the EEC which the Fianna Fáil Party brushed aside but, unfortunately, many of the things we predicted then have come true, particularly with regard to the effect of entry on our industries and on prices.

However, this party fully accepted the results of the referendum. Without reservation we accepted the verdict of the people and since that referendum we have played a full and active role in the EEC at various levels. We have played a constructive and worth-while role as far as Ireland's interests are concerned. The reason behind the claim by Fianna Fáil to six of the ten seats is based on the fact that they have an overwhelming majority in this House. There is no doubt that by force of lobby fodder they can claim those six seats. By virtue of their majority of 20 in this House they can ensure that their wishes are met in this respect but that is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not it is fair, it is just and in the best interests of Ireland that our representation should be as they insist. Surely they are the major considerations and the ones that Fianna Fáil should be taking into account, giving more thought to and giving more attention to rather than the Taoiseach, with a large number of hungry back benchers and anxious to give out as many positions as possible, taking six of the ten seats in the European Parliament.

In his anxiety to meet the pressures on him in this respect the Taoiseach has failed to take into consideration the important points I mentioned in the interests of justice, democracy, fair play and in the interests of the country as a whole. We find it somewhat strange that the claim to these seats is based on representation in the Oireachtas. If one looks at the representation over the years since we became a member of the European Community and the percentage of the total representation in the Houses of the Oireachtas one finds a picture that can by no stretch of the imagiantion justify a claim to the six seats by the Taoiseach on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party. We entered the EEC in January, 1973, and the seats were allocated on the basis of party representation here. The percentage representation of the Labour Party at that time was 10 per cent. In fact, between the Dáil and Seanad, we had 21 members who were members of the Parliamentary Labour Party. At present 24 Members of the House of the Oireachtas are members of the Parliamentary Labour Party. Therefore, by some extraordinary attempt at mathematical gerrymandering we find that while we have 24 Members in the Houses of the Oireachtas our representation in the European Parliament is being cut by 50 per cent, from two members to one. I cannot understand the calculations that led to that situation or how anybody can justify a proposal of that nature.

To illustrate my point a little more and to point out the fair and equitable way our representation in the European Parliament has been considered by successive Governments I should like to quote a few statistics even though I realise that statistics and percentages are boring and difficult to grasp. When the first group went to the European Parliament from Ireland in January, 1973, Fianna Fáil, who had 50 per cent of the seats here, were given 50 per cent of the European Parliament representation while Fine Gael, who had 33 per cent of the seats, received 30 per cent representations in Europe. The Labour Party, with 10 per cent of the seats here, got 20 per cent of the representation in Europe. The second group from Ireland also went in 1973 because of the general election in February of that year. There was a change of Government, Fianna Fáil went out and the National Coalition came in. As a result of the change the percentages were as follows: Fianna Fáil, with 43 per cent of the representation in the Houses of the Oireachtas, were left with 50 per cent of the representation in the European Parliament; Fine Gael, with 39 per cent in the Houses of the Oireachtas, were left with 30 per cent representation in Europe while the Labour Party, who had increased their representation to 14 per cent, were left with 20 per cent of the representation in Europe, two seats.

Between the election in February, 1973 and the dissolution of this House earlier this year, as a result of by-elections held for both Houses of the Oireachtas Fianna Fáil representation had dropped to 40 per cent and the representation of the Labour Party had risen to 17 per cent. No one suggested that because there had been this drop of 10 per cent in the representation of Fianna Fáil in this House it would be fair or just or in the best interests of Ireland that a mathematical gerrymander should shift another seat from Fianna Fáil. The precedent had been established that the Government side, irrespective of who was in Government, whether one party or a combination of parties, would have half of the representation in the European Parliament, pending direct elections, and the other side of the House, whether one or two parties comprised the Opposition, would have half of the representation. That precedent was established and maintained by Fianna Fáil and maintained by the previous Government, despite the very sharp drop in Fianna Fáil representation in the Oireachtas between 1973 and 1977.

Fianna Fáil now hold 54 per cent of the seats in both Houses. Their representation in the Dáil is approximately 51 per cent of the vote. They have a huge majority because of the way things worked out but their vote in this House is not in accordance with their claim to the European Parliament. If one looks, as they do in the European Parliament, at their percentage in both Houses one sees that it now stands at 54 per cent and they wish to claim six seats, 60 per cent. If one wants to round up the figures one way or the other, they are a lot nearer 50 per cent than 60 per cent. To show just how well the principle of the precedent was maintained, when the previous Government went out of office the total representation between Fine Gael and the Labour Party was 56 per cent. We had 2 per cent more than Fianna Fáil now have and we did not at any time suggest or even discuss taking a seat away from Fianna Fáil.

This proposal by the Taoiseach on behalf of Fianna Fáil is undoubtedly inspired by only one factor, the pressures upon the Taoiseach to feed the hungry backbenchers. We have a Bill going through the House which will create Ministers of State. I have no argument with that; an increase at that level is necessary and desirable in the interests of the country. It has renewed pressures on the Taoiseach from the hungry backbenchers, that huge majority which he had publicly acknowledged is too big. It is too big from his point of view because it increases the pressures upon him and the result of those pressures is this totally unfair and unjust attempt to deprive the Labour Party of their proper representation in the European Parliament.

If one looks from the national point of view at the composition of the European Parliament, one realises that it is composed of various political groupings who, according to their size, exercise influence upon the decisions of that Parliament. The biggest and most effective political grouping is unquestionably the socialist group. The Labour Party is the only party which has access to that group and is entitled to be a member and to be heard. This matter affects not only the Labour Party. In order to fend off pressures for appointments by some of his backbenchers, the Taoiseach is acting directly against the best interests of Ireland on very serious issues affecting the whole of our society. We know from our experience at European level that deliberations within the political groupings can be decisive. Let us face reality. If we take a seat out of the socialist political grouping, where does it go? With whom are Fianna Fáil connected at European level and how effective are they as a political grouping within the European Parliament?

It is not my purpose to make any comment on any political grouping or party outside this nation but I pose that question and there are sufficient knowledgeable, intelligent people in this country to draw the right conclusion as to the effect of the proposed action by the Taoiseach on Ireland's position within the European Parliament. These issues are important from the point of view of Ireland's position within the Parliament and within the EEC in general. The European Parliament although it has not the power that we would like, still has sufficient influence to enable the Commission and the Council of Ministers to take note of decisions made by the Parliament.

Undoubtedly the decisions there are largely influenced by what happens within the socialist group. By deliberate act of the Government, we are now proposing to have Ireland's representation in the most influential political group within the Community, and for what purpose? It is to satisfy the personal ambition of some members of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party. Dear God, it is a high price to ask Ireland to pay for the personal ambition of a Member of this House irrespective of which party he may belong to.

When I discussed putting this motion down it was rightly pointed out to me that Fianna Fáil had the numbers, the votes. When the bell rings, some will go into this lobby and others into that, and by the will of the people, perhaps now regretted, Fianna Fáil will have a majority because the reality is that their majority in the House is bigger than the Labour Party's representation in the House. In that way they can have six seats in the European Parliament. They will trip into the lobbies, including the man who has put pressure on the Taoiseach to get them the six places, and they can impose this position not on the Labour Party but on the people.

The Taoiseach last week spoke in King's Inns on parliamentary democracy. He was eloquent, impressive. I will quote from page 9 of his script, handed out by the GIS. On the motion "That so far Western Democracy has Failed" he said this:

One final word. It is necessary, I think, to say something of what we do not mean by democracy. I want to touch on this question now because it affects us all in this country. Democracy does not mean the imposition of the will of the majority on the minority.

I wonder how hollow those words sound now against the background of what is being proposed by Fianna Fáil tonight.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. P. Lalor)

I move the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and to substitute the following:

"in proportion to the relevant representation in the Oireachtas, approves the nomination of six members of the Fianna Fáil and four members of the parties comprising the Opposition to be delegates to the Assembly of the European Communities pending the holding of direct elections to that body."

The Leader of the Labour Party had a bad brief and nothing he said in his presentation of it improved it from any point of view. It is rather remarkable that he should come in here after three or four months and hold the threat over the heads of the Fianna Fáil Government that if we are not careful there is sufficient knowledge among the people of the country to change the position. He was re-echoing something that has been wallowing in his mind during the past four months. I am sure he is appreciative of what can happen to the type of dictatorship that he endeavours to put across in this House through this motion.

In his own way, Deputy Cluskey truly pinpointed the position. He said, rightly or wrongly, but certainly rightly from the point of view of the votes of the people, that the Fianna Fáil majority is bigger than the full Labour Party representation in the House. Deputy O'Connell threw in the gem that the Unionist Party have it too. We have had Governments in and out, we have had a perfect working democracy, but now the democratic game has been turned to the extent that it does not suit the Labour Party and they ask us to change the rules.

Mr. Cluskey

We are asking only that the rules be maintained.

Mr. Quinn

Stick by them.

Mr. P. Lalor

We have an application for an alteration of Standing Orders. The outcome of the last election was shattering, with the people indicating by their votes that they had had enough of the type of messing experienced in the past four and a half years. Now we have the preposterous situation where the Leader of the Labour Party comes up with this suggestion. It is agreed that Labour had two representatives in the European Parliament until now, but if Deputy Cluskey had been awake when he nominated his spokesmen at the appropriate meeting following his appointment as Leader of the Labour Party, why did he not go through the motions of appointing a replacement for Deputy Thornley?

Mr. Cluskey

The House replaces him.

Mr. P. Lalor

I agree, and I am glad the Leader of the Labour Party, by tabling this motion, has given the House an opportunity to put the record in order and to enable the Government to instruct the House to nominate six members of Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Cluskey

The Government are now instructing the House. That is what the Parliamentary Secretary said.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary is in possession and he must be heard without interruption.

Mr. P. Lalor

I am speaking to the amendment which deals in terms of representation on a proportional basis. We heard Deputy Cluskey claiming that a representation in the Oireachtas of 1.1536 per cent entitles the Labour Party to two seats. He said that following the 1973 election Fianna Fáil had only 43 per cent but out of the graciousness of the Government's heart at that time they did not take from the five seats which Fianna Fáil had. An article by Denis Coughlan in today's Irish Times stated that:

Mr. Cluskey is expected to have the support of the Fine Gael Party when he opposes the proposed change on the grounds of precedent. The Labour leader will argue that because the party was given two seats in 1972, accounting for 20 per cent European Representation with a 10 per cent Oireachtas representation, it is entitled to hold those seats now that it has 12 per cent Oireachtas representation.

In 1972, as Deputy Cluskey has acknowledged, the actual representation was very close to 50 per cent Government, 33 per cent Fine Gael and ten per cent Labour. These are his figures. At that time Fianna Fáil representation in both Houses amounted to 107 as against 97 combined Fine Gael and Labour representation. At that time, too, the Fianna Fáil Government of the day considered that their majority of ten would not in any way justify their taking a 6:4 representation. It was extremely proper at that time with those figures that Fianna Fáil, out of the generosity of their hearts, should present five seats to the Opposition. The motion in the name of Deputy Cluskey refers to the establishing of precedent. We have had only one experience of this type of thing before. It is possible that on the figures available at that time the Fine Gael group might have claimed justifiably four of the five Opposition seats but there was no reason for the Government party of the day endeavouring to dictate to two parties who were extremely busy then getting together to put the Government party out of office. To that extent they succeeded. It may be said that Fine Gael in an effort to court the Labour Party in regard to the formation of a Coalition parted with one of the seats to which they might have laid claim.

That is why I am here tonight on behalf of the Minister for Foreign Affairs moving an amendment which does not attempt to spell out how the four remaining seats are to be distributed. In relation to proportion it appears to me justifiable that Fine Gael should have three seats and Labour one seat but we would not express openly any objection to the Opposition agreeing among themselves, as they did before, to share on a 50/50 basis.

Mr. Quinn

How can a 3:2 representation be a 50/50 representation?

Mr. P. Lalor

On the basis of their representation in both House of the Oireachtas. Fianna Fáil on the basis of 208 Members should have 10 seats.

Mr. Cluskey

They have 207 Members.

Mr. P. Lalor

Yes, that is right.

Mr. Cluskey

And a by-election in the offing.

Mr. P. Lalor

In that regard there will be no doubt as to the choice of the majority of Members of the Oireachtas. However, that is only a side issue. In relation to the total number of seats we hold our entitlement in the European Parliament is to a 5.528 representation and not 5.4 as claimed by Deputy Cluskey. On the same basis the Fine Gael representation is 2.932 while the Labour representation is 1.153.

Deputy Cluskey has the audacity to come into the House backed up by six people whom he describes, but whom I do not wish to describe, as hungry men looking for another seat. The situation is that Deputy Cluskey realises he has a problem. There are a number of people on the Labour benches who see no future for themselves in so far as reaching this side of the House is concerned. Most of them are extremely anxious to try to carpetbag it to Europe.

Mr. Cluskey

So the six people whom Fianna Fáil will be nominating may be regarded as carpetbaggers.

Mr. P. Lalor

I have not said that. Deputy Kavanagh represents the Labour Party in Europe at present. I sympathise fully with the Leader of the Labour Party in relation to the pressures that are on him regarding a replacement and in trying to clear the way and make the course for a number of his colleagues who are anxious to have their names added to the roll for Europe. In the lambasting that Deputy Cluskey seemed to level at the Taoiseach and in which he was backed up by hungry frustrated backbenchers, all of whom are breathing down the back of his neck in their seeking for these nominations, the Deputy portrayed the problems that he is experiencing in relation to the selection of one man.

Only about two weeks ago Deputy Cluskey asked the Taoiseach when it was proposed to make representations to the House in connection with the European Assembly. As far as I am concerned, so far as the nation and the Press are concerned, it has been taken for granted since the general election by ordinary average people that the representation in Europe would be as we have outlined. However, Deputy Cluskey suggests otherwise. The Taoiseach had indicated to the Deputy already by way of correspondence that it was our intention to take six seats but we saw no reason for tabling an amendment spelling out how the Opposition seats should be distributed. I noticed that the Leader of Fine Gael was very anxious to have this motion discussed this evening and so far as I can see he supports the request for the change as outlined by Deputy Cluskey.

We do not want to lay down in this House any prior arrangement for the Opposition. We have no intention of dictating to the Opposition parties whom they should select or in what way they should divide the nominations. We on this side of the House are very satisfied that the five representatives whom we have had in the European Parliament over the last number of years have been extremely effective and successful and have done a great job. They have never gone to Europe with cap in hand saying that we should lick Socialists or the Christian Democrats. We have gone on our own——

Mr. Cluskey

To lick the de Gaullists.

Mr. P. Lalor

——into Europe and we have done a good job. Deputy Cluskey said that we are not properly represented with the socialist groups in Europe, that we might as well not be there at all and that they are the only hope we have. That is exactly what the Labour Party spokesman said in June: "Give your confidence to us over here, we are the only hope you have." The people gave their answer. The people despaired after four-and-a-half years. They were frustrated. What else could they have done?

Mr. Cluskey

And after four months everything is "under review".

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary, please.

Mr. P. Lalor

They have the bright ideas. We cannot fling any mud at them.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Cluskey

The fact never inhibited them before.

Mr. Quinn

The facts are before us at the moment.

Mr. P. Lalor

The Deputy took the words out of my mouth.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary, please.

Mr. P. Lalor

I would like to draw attention to a very important point. It would be no harm if the Leader of the Labour Party were to appreciate it. We are going to have 15 seats following the next European election. On the basis of 15 seats as a proportion of 208, Labour would still not be fully qualified for two seats. I would give them two seats, but on that basis it would take 13.86 seats to qualify them for one European seat. That means that they would need a little over 27 seats between both Houses to qualify them for two fully fledged seats in Europe. Labour still would not measure up, but I have no doubt that the Taoiseach, following his normal run of generosity would play the ball.

The Leader of the Labour Party criticised what he described as the misuse of the tremendous majority which Fianna Fáil have in this House in so far as we have a capacity to steamroll anything through. There is something familiar about that. I remember opposing things from the other side of the House and I talked about steamrolling, but subsequent to that we got this tremendous volume of support from the people. The Government and the Fianna Fáil Party would be letting the country down if we did not accept the confidence that the people are giving us and send six out of ten representatives to Europe.

Mr. Cluskey

Why stop at six?

Mr. P. Lalor

I am talking specifically about our entitlement which is something the people gave us. The major difference between Fianna Fáil in Government and the Coalition in Government is that we know how to carry our responsibility and we do not misuse it. Deputy Cluskey asked why Fianna Fáil should get 60 per cent for 54 per cent of the seats. I will forgive him the little miscalculation.

Mr. Quinn

He will need two for each one of ours.

Mr. P. Lalor

Why should Fianna Fáil get 60 per cent of the seats for 55.28 per cent of the votes? Let me reply by saying that surely to goodness it is more justifiable to give six seats for 55 plus of the vote than two seats for 1.1 per cent of the vote. There is no justification at all for the case that has been put tonight by the Leader of the Labour Party. Perhaps he was rushed and did not expect that the Taoiseach would be so generous in giving him time tonight that he asked for today to put his case.

Mr. Cluskey

Whose time? Let the Parliamentary Secretary not get confused about the Taoiseach's generosity. This is Private Members' Time, Labour Party time.

Mr. P. Lalor

The Labour Party said: "We will look after ourselves, and hang the mentally handicapped."

Mr. Quinn

Could I interrupt the Parliamentary Secretary? He quoted 55 per cent and 1.1 per cent.

Mr. P. Lalor

Sorry, 11.5 per cent. That is one of the great advantages of having bright young boys in. They can catch a fellow out on this.

Mr. Quinn

It is a pity the Parliamentary Secretary is overworked.

Mr. P. Lalor

The Deputy is right. My figures should have been 55.28 as against 11.23 per cent. I am reminded of a Deputy who was here before me, the late Dr. Ryan. I am not saying that I make mistake deliberately in order to have Deputies check me but I have found that people do listen and help me out.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary on the motion, please.

Mr. P. Lalor

We have listened to the case presented by Deputy Cluskey, if case we can call it, for the retention of two seats. This is a late conversion for the man who said three months before he discovered that there was a semblance of a chance: "Maybe we can soft-soap the Taoiseach and ask him if we can have two seats", and has overlooked it until now. The Fianna Fáil Party in Government are doing the right thing in seeing that the people are properly represented in Europe, and the most proper way our people can be represented in Europe is by sending six Fianna Fáil nominees and four from the collective Opposition.

Mr. Creed

I rise to support the motion introduced by the leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Cluskey. I do so on behalf of my party because there is a very important principle involved here. If we had the same speech from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach at the start of the selection of members of the European Parliament I could see some justification for the speech he has just made but at this stage within six months of direct elections there is no justification for it.

I want to put the record straight, first of all, in relation to a few points. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned a vacancy in the European Parliament. I take it that he meant an Irish delegate who lost his seat in the general election. I want to remind him that that vacancy has not arisen yet because for six months after a member loses his seat he is a fully fledged member of the European Parliament. I do not think therefore that there is any case to be made that the Leader of the Labour Party has not nominated a member to fill a vacancy which has not arisen.

I also want to refer to the point made by the Leader of the Labour Party about the representation of the Labour members in their political group in Europe. I have had four years' experience in the European Parliament and have had experience of how all its institutions work. I have seen the importance of members in a political group, the larger the more important it is to have influence. While we have had two members of the Labour Party members of the Socialist group in the European Parliament it still is important I believe that members there, representing the interests of the people of the country, use their influence with that political group because it is a large group. I have seen examples of where it was done effectively.

The group of which I with my two Fine Gael colleagues have the honour to belong, the Christian Democrats, was at one stage the largest party. Since the British Labour Party joined the Socialist group in Europe that then became the largest political unit there. It was also important then that the Fine Gael members use their influence with the Christian Democrat group to influence decisions that were ultimately taken in the European Parliament. It is very important that this continues if we are to achieve results. Despite what the Parliamentary Secretary has said there are 17 members in the group to which his party belong in Europe, the Gaullists or National Progressive Democrats. If they influence the entire group to support any matter which arises in the European Parliament it will not have an overall result because the group is too small.

I can see a serious situation arising if the amendment is carried and if the Taoiseach appoints six Members of the Fianna Fáil Party to the European Parliament because the representation in the Socialist group will be reduced by half to one member. That is a very serious situation. The Taoiseach should decide tonight that it is only six months until direct elections, which we are now preparing for and we have a Bill going through the House which will set the machinery in motion to give the people the opportunity to elect their representatives to the European Parliament. They will decide ultimately that it would be small mindedness as far as the Fianna Fáil Party are concerned if six months prior to the people selecting their members to the European Parliament they grabbed a seat.

We have heard the two last speakers accusing one another of having their backbenchers eager for power and breathing down their Leaders' necks for jobs. As far as I am concerned I have had discussions with the Leader of my party. I have now been elected Chief Whip of my party and I find it is no longer possible to continue in Europe after being a representative there for four years. I find that even dual membership of the European Parliament and the National Parliament is just not on. I appeal to the Taoiseach tonight to say "We will not make a change." We have heard quite a lot of lip service from the Fianna Fáil Party in or out of power about the voice of the minority. We have heard it loud and clear on many occasions in connection with the minority in another part of this island. The Labour Party are in a minority. The Parliamentary Secretary made the case that the people have spoken and have given their decision and elected Fianna Fáil to a position where they were never so strong. I believe they are dangerously strong. The people elected them to that position but the people have not yet elected anybody to the European Parliament.

It is the European Parliament and representation from this country that we are discussing here tonight in Private Members' Time. I support the case put forward by the Leader of the Labour Party that no change should take place between now and the direct elections when the people will decide. When one contrasts the Taoiseach's attitude and that of the Fianna Fáil Party tonight in seeking six Members and that of the attitude of the Coalition during their term of office we find the Fianna Fáil Party in the House had 43 per cent and held 50 per cent of the seats. No Leader of the Government or any of the political parties said: "Because we have more members and because we are entitled to more we should grab a seat."

That is not the way to work in the European Parliament. When I spoke on the European Elections Bill I said that it is necessary that the members who go forward from this country to the European Parliament co-operate and co-ordinate their efforts, to seek the maximum benefit for our people. The attitude adopted tonight by the Parliamentary Secretary and the Fianna Fáil Party does not lend itself to that type of joint approach I was talking about. It is important from the national point of view that no change takes place. I believe the people will be very concerned at the arrogant attitude of the Leader of the Government. I did not expect that from him. Perhaps there is a difficulty because recently we discussed a Bill in the House to appoint ten new Ministers of State. There are eager beavers in the backbenchers of the Fianna Fáil Party who are anxious for jobs and for power. The extra members he had in the European Parliament to replace the people appointed Ministers would not be enough to quell the desires of those backbenchers. He should be strong enough to say now that there should be no change in the representation from this Parliament to speak on behalf of the people in the Parliament of Europe.

Mr. B. Desmond

The Labour Party would be far happier this evening and would be doing far more productive work for the nation if we had the opportunity of debating the motion we had down in Private Members' Time relating to the mentally handicapped. Unfortunately, we had no option this evening but to move the particular motion we were obliged to place on the Order Paper because we have the imminent appointment by the Taoiseach of Members to the European Parliament to replace Deputies Lenihan and Gibbons who are now Ministers. Since the Taoiseach has intimated this the Labour Party had no option but to respond.

We expected a little more from the Taoiseach than this approach. Apparently he does not intend to have the good grace to allow a former member of this House, David Thornley, to see out his term of office to 5th January next. He proposes to grant that seat to Fianna Fáil also on the basis that that party have an Oireachtas majority. I regret that. Deputy Creed, Deputy Lalor and I are the three party Whips and we have excellent relations. I would regret anything which would in any way affect those cordial relations. Irrespective of the vote on this matter, we will have to work with one another for the next four years.

The Taoiseach had this famous magnanimous saying that, when you were in power and when you had your majority, you walked softly. In the past four years, when the National Coalition Government decided to take positions of power, I got into the height of trouble because I objected. I felt there were many occasions when we were not particularly magnanimous.

Mr. Killilea

Hear, hear.

Mr. B. Desmond

If the Deputy would listen for a moment. I plead guilty, but there is one area where, to our credit, when we had the opportunity time and time again of putting a motion through the House and taking six seats in the European Parliament, we did not do so. When Deputy Noel Lemass died—a respected Member of this House—Deputy Halligan won the seat and the Coalition's majority increased. In the Donegal by-election Deputy Keaveney took a seat from Fianna Fáil and Fianna Fáil's membership of the House went down again. When the Fine Gael Party won the seat in Monaghan, Fianna Fáil's membership of the House dropped again. We reached the stage where, in the two Houses of the Oireachtas, Fianna Fáil had no more than about 40 per cent of the total representation.

Mr. Killilea

The Coalition took all the seats in the Seanad by appointment of the Taoiseach.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Desmond.

Mr. B. Desmond

The seats were won in the Seanad under the ordinary system of election.

Mr. Killilea

Six were won by selection.

Mr. B. Desmond

The Deputy will have his opportunity. I want to take up one point raised by the Parliamentary Secretary. He suggested we were attempting to change the Standing Orders of the House.

Mr. P. Lalor

The rules.

Mr. B. Desmond

There is no Standing Order, there is no arrangement, there is no procedure by which members of the European Parliament are selected by this House other than by a general consensus.

Mr. P. Lalor

Look at the motion.

Mr. B. Desmond

When I had Dáil questions on the Order Paper in 1972 I remember discussing this point with no less a person than the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dr. Hillery. It was suggested that the best way of appointing members of the European Parliament was by mutual consensus and agreement between the leaders of the parties for the duration of the Parliament, pending direct elections. Even then there was talk about direct elections. If the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Lenihan, were in the House he would agree with me.

We do not often share confidences, but I understand he is aghast at this proposition. We know perfectly well that the only reason this is being done is that, as the Taoiseach has said, he has a majority of about ten too many. He said that publicly and he said it privately. His party must find jobs for 60 back benchers and, therefore, he proposes to give in to the pressure, on him. On this occasion the Taoiseach is not walking softly. One would expect something from some politicians and particularly those who claim to be so charismatic that they are above it all.

We are not sending individuals to the European Parliament to represent the Fianna Fáil Party, the Fine Gael Party, or the Labour Party. We are sending them to represent the Republic of Ireland. When we send such persons abroad, it is desirable that, bearing in mind the political differences, they should be a team. They will be ten among several hundreds and they should co-operate on such things as a common fisheries policy. We have seen Deputy Kavanagh co-operating with Deputy Gibbons and very often assisting the Fianna Fáil Party in the past two or three years. I did not notice any conspicious and outstanding performance on that occasion.

While it is true that the Treaty of Rome says the representation should reflect the relevant strengths of the parties, it is also true that, in many of the Parliaments of Europe, the total aggregate vote of one party is the deciding factor. The total aggregate vote of the Fianna Fáil Party in the last general election was slightly over 50 per cent and would not warrant taking 60 per cent of the seats.

It is a matter of regret that the Fianna Fáil Party will not abide by the agreement reached early in 1973. The political fortunes of that party changed substantially during that period and we did not move to take over the majority of our representation in the European Parliament at that time. It is a matter of some amusement that the Fianna Fáil Party will be sending six Irish people to join that rather weird assortment of European parliamentarians—and we had better get the name right—the National Progressive Democrats of Europe for Progress. I think that is the name they are known under now because they changed their name recently.

Mr. Kavanagh

The European Democrats for Progress.

Mr. B. Desmond

The word "national" is out of it now. These assorted individuals of Gallic Poujadist background are a weird collection of redundant European representatives. We will have six new aspirants going over to join them for the next six months.

Mr. P. Lalor

Would the Deputy prefer smoked salmon socialists?

Mr. B. Desmond

It is a pity we have not got a good cartoonist on our official staff in Dáil Éireann because he could produce some quite good cartoons for a Christmas edition of Dublin Opinion. The reaction of the other groups in the European Parliament, I am quite certain, will be one of hilarity. I have never been able to understand why the Fianna Fáil Party aligned themselves in this manner with a group who voted against them on common agricultural policy issues, who have done contortions on fishery issues and who are now proposing to enlarge this group; even if they do enlarge it it will not make any major contribution.

There have been continued references by the Fianna Fáil Party to power-sharing in Northern Ireland. In all the parties, whether it is in Ballymena or in Dáil Éireann, we are hyprocritical when it comes to grabbing the spoils of office.

Mr. P. Lalor

The Deputy should speak for himself.

Mr. B. Desmond

I speak for myself. I suffered greatly in my party when I opposed it, and I have no regrets for the opposition I expressed. There were a few occasions when my party acted in an entirely honourable manner in that regard, and in relation to the European Parliament we have acted honourably. Deputy Cluskey, as the new Leader of the Labour Party, has put forward a coherent point of view. However, if you want to have power you must be magnanimous enough to share it, and in going into the European Parliament the best way is not just representing the Fianna Fáil manifesto, or the Labour Party policy documents or Fine Gael's Just Society but representing the national interest on a 50-50 basis. I am surprised that the Taoiseach has not come here tonight to defend his decision. It is not the decision of the Parliamentary Secretary or of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. The person who decides the size of the bread basket in the Fianna Fáil Party and which crumb goes to which Deputy is the Taoiseach, and nobody is more powerful. He should at least have the gumption to come here and defend his own decision.

Mr. P. Lalor

He is at an official function.

Mr. B. Desmond

If he has an official function I will excuse him.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Desmond is in possession.

Mr. B. Desmond

This afternoon Deputy Cluskey had no option but to raise this motion and in so doing took over valuable time needed for a far more important motion. We had no option——

Mr. Cluskey

In the face of a refusal of Government time.

Mr. B. Desmond

——and I am surprised that the Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, did not elaborate on the matter this afternoon, which would have permitted Deputy Cluskey to reply and which would have resolved the situation. In conclusion, let me say that in 1977 the Fianna Fáil Party, got 811,000 votes—it did very well in the election— and the Labour Party got 191,000 votes. Now the Fianna Fáil Party get six seats and we get one. By all the criteria of selection we should be permitted to retain our two seats, and no ill-will should be generated in the initial stages of this Dáil. This would not have broken the hearts of the members of that party or the pockets of the Deputies who are looking for a few quid between now and the time of the European Parliamentary elections and who want to chase off to Europe. Some of those who were expressing great interest in Europe would have difficulty in finding the aeroplane to Amsterdam not to mind going to Strasbourg. The Fianna Fáil Party would be far better off to let things lie until next October when there will be elections.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. Desmond

I can assure Deputy Killilea that I have no interest in standing for the European Parliament. The Deputy and I have one great thing in common: we shall not be standing for Europe, but we certainly will stand for fair play in this House.

Mr. Killilea

As a new Member of this House I assumed that only matters worthy of attention were dealt with here. I took it that during Private Members' Time it was only matters of national interest that were discussed. Since the Labour Party have taken up the time of the House this evening with what I consider nothing more than a big joke, we all might as well join in in the circus——

Mr. Cluskey

Goodness knows the Deputy is qualified.

Mr. Killilea

——and the floor show given by the Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Cluskey. At one stage I thought he was about to cry and I was going to send him over a box of handkerchiefs. Obviously, his backbenchers are putting pressure on him and he spends an hour and a half here crying in the wilderness, talking about jobs for the boys, talking about what he feels not to be correct, when we all remember the type of democracy that was operated over the last four years by the National Coalition Government in which he himself took part, in regard to appointments for the highest posts down to the lowest, the last straw being that, after they had been hammered in the general election, the then Taoiseach nominated four or five Senators to the Seanad in order to give them a bigger percentage. This motion, therefore, is nothing less than a sham and a disgrace.

There was a very important motion which we all thought was coming before the House this evening, namely, on the mentally handicapped situation. It amazed me that the Opposition should waste the time of the House crying here because the people decided against the National Coalition, and suggesting to us that we are not democratic. It was the democratic will of the people that Fianna Fáil got 84 seats and that Fianna Fáil are in a majority in the Seanad. As the Parliamentary Secretary pointed out a few minutes ago, it is also the democratic will of the people that we should have six seats in the European Parliament. The Fianna Fáil Party are as much entitled to belong to the European Progressive Democratic Group as the so-called socialists of the Labour Party in this House are entitled to belong to the extreme reds-under-the-bed group in Europe.

To say the country is missing out because one or two of the Labour Party are not in Europe is beyond my understanding. We all know—it has been acknowledged in the newspapers —that Fianna Fáil have been sound, solid, loyal and strong and Deputy Desmond underlined that a moment ago when he said Deputy Kavanagh helped them. That is the way to do things. To decry them because they are part of a unit that does not wave flags or try to grab power is an unworthy exercise.

Fianna Fáil have a good national reputation abroad and they will continue to earn that reputation. I do not understand the argument that because they are not members of some massive European group they should not be there. To me the Socialists are a peculiar group and I often wonder why Deputy Dan Spring and Deputy "Going-up-the-stairs now" associate with them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Killilea on the motion, please.

Mr. Killilea

I suppose when we talk about Socialists——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not talking about Socialists. On the motion now, please.

Mr. Killilea

In the last election people realised the representatives they had some of those representatives are in the Seanad now and some are nowhere. One would have thought the Labour Party had learned a lesson in democracy after the election. It is my belief that Fianna Fáil should have got two more marginal seats in the election. The Labour Party got four or five too many with the help of Fine Gael. Let them get together now upstairs come to a decision between themselves and stop wasting valuable time here. Let them arrange the distribution between them outside the Chamber and let there be an end to the waffle and the waste of time.

The Labour Party are fighting for something to which they are not entitled, to which they were never entitled and, if they go on as they are, to which they will never be entitled. Let them accept the facts. They are back to normality now. This is nothing more than job seeking. I suppose they got used to the "jobs for the boys" in the Coalition.

This is not the kind of motion we should be debating. We should be discussing a motion of major importance to mentally handicapped children, a motion that was set aside because the Labour Party did not get a couple of jobs they thought they were entitled to, but they must face the bitter reality now. In the last four years any job from minding a door to some of the highest positions in the land were filled by the National Coalition with their own appointees. Whether they were socialists, or left, or right I could not tell you.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Killilea, this is a very limited motion and there is a very limited time in which to discuss it. We are not discussing any appointments other than appointments to the European Parliament. That is what we are doing in the motion before the House.

Mr. Killilea

All I am saying is that we are wasting time and if the Labour Party had any conscience they would withdraw the motion. They should have a grasp of political realities. The indication was quite clear three or four months back but they still do not seem to understand what happened. The audacity of their coming in here this evening wasting the time of the House. Oddly enough, I think the Parliamentary Secretary was quite correct when he said the Leader of the Labour Party was reflecting the problems he had in deciding which representative to send to Europe. Now he would solve the problem by sending two and he hoped the Fianna Fáil Government and party would help him to resolve the problem. My advice to the Labour Party is to get together with the Fine Gael Party and resolve the problem amongst themselves. Is it that the days of the shotgun wedding are over?

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 9th November, 1977.