Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Mar 1978

Vol. 304 No. 9

Road Transport Bill, 1978 : Second Stage.

I move : "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Road Transport Act, 1933, imposed, through the system of merchandise licences, onerous restrictions on the private sector of the road freight haulage industry which remained practically unchanged until substantial measures of liberalisation were introduced under the Road Transport Act, 1971. The process of liberalisation initiated in 1971 entailed the removal of area and commodity restrictions and certain restrictions on vehicle weight from the main stock of general haulage licences but a final control on the number of vehicles operable by each licensee was retained. More than 500 general hauliers are confined to one vehicle; about 150 are allowed two and 70 or so have numbers ranging up to 22. These authorisations reflect in most cases the circumstances of the original undertakings involved in 1933. A number have, however, grown through the acquisition of other businesses, which has been the only means of growth open to them.

The measures in the 1971 Act were preceded over a few years by a rather less restrictive view of the then existing legislation than had been applied in earlier days. The change of approach got its impetus from the finding, following a special survey in 1964, that the overwhelming bulk of road freight transport was performed by the owners of goods using their own transport, or, by what is usually called transport on own account. Only 20 per cent in tonnage terms was carried by licensed hauliers; of this, CIE accounted for some eight percentage points and private licensed hauliers for the remaining 12. That finding, taken with the fact that the railway share of freight transport was virtually frozen to a few traffics especially suited to rail, demonstrated that the restrictive legislation maintained for over 30 years with the objective of securing freight traffic for the railways, or, road services operated by the railways, had totally failed in its purpose.

A situation where the road freight transport industry is virtually an "own account" industry and licensed hauliers carry only about 20 per cent of road freight tonnage compares very unfavourably with that in other countries for which some data is available. For example, in Germany, France and Belgium the corresponding figure is about 40 per cent; in the UK and Italy it is roughly 50 per cent and in the Netherlands a little over 60 per cent. Luxembourg is the only other EEC State where we know the figure to be as low as 20 per cent. Since the 1964 survey the situation in Ireland has changed to the detriment of licensed hauliers and it has been estimated in recent years that the tonnage of road freight carried by licensees may now be as low as 10 per cent—half the figure disclosed in the mid-sixties— which was then thought to be a startling indicator.

Too much own account transport, such as the figures suggest to exist in Ireland, must be regarded with concern because it is likely to be inefficient and to bring on to the roads an excessive number of vehicles, making it unduly costly in direct terms and in the indirect costs of wear and tear on the roads, time lost due to congestion and general detriment to the environment. We have that situation here while restrictive legislation prevents the development of an efficient and adequate professional transport fleet.

In essence, therefore, if we want to get our road freight transport into better shape the task that faces us is to get the professional industry on to a proper footing. This is the aim of the present measure and its ultimate objective is the creation of a cheaper and more efficient road freight transport system.

The ultimate objective of policy would be the creation of a haulage industry free from the frustrating quantitative controls which have given rise to so much inefficiency and regulated rather by the quality of performance required of its members. Taking account of the regulatory system that has existed until now, an unduly rapid transition towards that final objective would, in my view, prove disruptive. What we need before the eventual pattern can materialise is a period during which we can ease away old restrictions while experimenting, in so far as we can, as to the form and style of the flexible type of regulation now thought to be required.

To reflect these views, the Bill contains, as its principal measure, a proposal to ease substantially the remaining restriction on the numbers of vehicles operable on general haulage licences. The Bill proposes to permit, therefore, a minimum authorised number of six vehicles per licence in the case of the present one-vehicle firm and an absolute maximum of 80 vehicles as operable by any one licensee, whether on one licence or a number of licences held by him. The appropriate level will be settled in each case by multiplying the existing authorised number by six, subject to the over-riding maximum of 80. Section 3 of the Bill provides accordingly.

Under the new dispensation a man at present authorised to operate one truck may well be satisfied to continue his business exactly as before but under this measure he would be able to operate six vehicles if he so desired. The go-ahead enterprising haulier who has, say, four trucks will be free to operate 24 and to take his own decisions and actions in relation to the development of his business within that limit. The ceiling of 80 will be a safeguard against unrealistic investment or attempts to dominate the market while the minimum of six will ensure that no one is compelled by a legal restraint to operate a business which by being confined to one or two vehicles is, on his own calculation, incapable of giving him a fair reward for his enterprise, labour and investment. In general, I will be providing the industry with a new open framework within which I will be able to monitor its development and allow it to review its objectives.

As that process gets under way I will also be able to observe the effects of other provisions of the Bill which initiate new and more flexible techniques in the regulation of the road freight haulage industry. The most important of these arises with the creation, as is proposed in section 6, of new licensing areas to supersede the existing exempted areas, which are being abolished, and to grant licences, as of right, in those areas on the sole basis of the qualitative criteria in the EEC Access Directive which came into effect on 1 January 1978. People who were operating in those areas prior to that date will be entitled to their qualifications, in full or in part, under the directive but new entrants will have to fulfil all the necessary requirements. The radii of the new areas, based on the discontinued exempted areas at Dublin and Cork will be 20 miles as against 15 miles at present while the new areas based on those being eliminated at Waterford, Limerick and Galway will have 15 mile radii as against 10 mile radii as of now.

Review of the exempted areas is, of course, long overdue. The initial justification for them, which was to allow free transfers of goods between ships and the railway ceased to exist many years ago. If they are to be regarded as devices which ensure adequate road freight transport services in the major urban centres, they no longer reflect the expansion which has taken place over the years in those centres. The proposal in the Bill will make use of the exempted area concept under which there has been no restriction on entry to the haulage business as a basis for a type of pilot scheme in qualitative licensing.

A second experiment is intended to strengthen our position in the international haulage market. The liberal policy exercised in relation to the grant of merchandise licences for international refrigerated haulage and the outstanding performance of Irish hauliers in that field encourage me in the belief that past restrictions have kept out of haulage a vigorous force of operators who if given the necessary freedom could contribute enormously to the development of an Irish international haulage fleet. In section 4 of the Bill I am taking powers to grant licences for international haulage to Irish hauliers without being subject to the restrictive licensing provisions in the 1944 Act which at present inhibit, and would, indeed, permanently inhibit the development of any flexible licensing system. These licences would be the reciprocal of the import/export transport licences at present granted to foreign hauliers under the 1971 Act. The power to grant them may be used experimentally while the full potential of its use is being assessed.

I attach particular importance to this provision because we need to strengthen our position in international haulage and lessen our dependence on outsiders so as to reduce our vulnerability in the event of any serious difficulty arising in the international haulage market. It will not, of course, be possible to grant these licences to applicants who do not comply with the EEC Access Directive.

It is my basic aim to encourage the further development of the international sector of the Irish road haulage industry. The bulk of international road haulage is carried out under bilateral permits granted by the countries concerned and it is normal practice for countries to conclude bilateral road transport agreements with one another with a view to facilitating the operation and development of this traffic. The growth of international operation by Irish road hauliers in recent years has given rise to the need to conclude bilateral road transport agreements with the countries concerned.

With a view to facilitating Irish hauliers to obtain the necessary permits, which are sometimes required at short notice, my Department are currently negotiating such agreements with a number of European countries. Agreements with France, Belgium and the Federal Republic of Germany are already in operation. Under those agreements Irish hauliers can obtain, direct from my Department, the necessary permits to operate to, from or in transit through the countries concerned, instead of having to apply to the countries concerned for the appropriate permits.

Talks with the Italian authorities, which commenced in Rome on the conclusion of a bilateral agreement are to be resumed shortly. Draft agreements received from the UK and the Netherlands are being considered and discussions with the transport authorities of those countries are in hand. I will also consider the question of opening negotiations on similar agreements with other European countries as the need for such agreements arises for the facilitation of our hauliers.

As part of the liberalisation of international road transport, agreement is reached from time to time both in the EEC and the ECMT and also in the course of the negotiations of bilateral road transport agreements for the exemption from licensing control of certain international road freight or road passenger transport operations. While the necessary exemption in relation to EEC liberalisation measures can be made by way of Ministerial Order under the European Communities Act, 1972, there are at present no statutory provisions which would enable me to make similar exemptions in the other cases I have mentioned. The purpose of section 5 of the Bill is to remedy this deficiency.

A very important provision in section 2 of the Bill proposes the exemption from licensing controls of vehicles under 2.5 metric tons unladen weight subject to a maximum weight of six metric tons fully laden. This type of exemption is found in a number of Community enactments. I attach particular importance to it as a means by which many local rural transport problems in both commerce and agriculture may be solved. It has been very difficult to service rural areas on an efficient basis. Sometimes they have been served by large trucks which travel half-empty through the countryside to deliver very small consignments along the way. In some cases it has not even been possible to provide this kind of service. As well, there can be rural transport problems, which need a solution, in relation to the carriage of small quantities of produce of one kind or another.

After the passing of this measure a local man in an area now badly served will be free to offer transport services, in a small vehicle suitable to the local needs of the area, to his neighbours, local traders or local industry. Long hauls will be uneconomical except perhaps for the occasional express or special journey, but it will be the normal thing to serve local needs and, where appropriate, to run a groupage or a feeder service to link up with the railway or long distance transport concerns using heavy road vehicles. It is these heavy vehicles that represent major business in road freight transport and altogether, apart from the benefits which decontrol of small vehicles would offer in rural areas, I am satisfied that there is not now any justification for statutory control of haulage in the smaller units.

A further exemption for the carriage of wheat, oats and barley during the harvest period, is provided for in section 2. I am strongly opposed to commodity exemptions and would not have considered this one except that there had been for many years what amounted to an all-the-year-round exemption for the carriage of wheat which for technical reasons was discontinued following our entry into the EEC. Administrative arrangements to provide an assured supply of transport were made in succeeding years but amended legislation was clearly preferable. It was also clear that to make new statutory arrangements for the carriage of wheat without providing for barley and oats would be very difficult to justify. It would also be very difficult to justify an exemption for all cereals for the whole year. If all cereals were to be provided for then the better idea seemed to be to confine the exemptions categorically to the harvest period.

I feel sure that with their new freedom licensed hauliers in general will be able to offer a more comprehensive service to the farming community than they have done before and that the farming community will respond accordingly, resorting to the exemption only in exceptional circumstances.

I have considered representations from the licensed hauliers in relation to penalties for illegal haulage. The provisions of the 1933 Act and the Transport Act, 1958, are complicated in that they involve doubling and redoubling of fines for repeated offences up to a maximum of £320 and unrealistic in that they include forfeiture of the vehicle used. Considering the value of road haulage vehicles nowadays I think a penalty of this order would be impossible either to defend or impose, and I see no justification for retaining an enforcement provision which no one would contemplate invoking. Section 2 of the Bill proposes the simpler, more realistic fine of £250 for a first offence and £500 for second or subsequent offences. It is my belief that the need for severe fines will diminish as illegal haulage becomes less attractive through licensed hauliers being in a position to offer a better deal than they now can. Moreover, intending hauliers who have committed repeated offences will find themselves unable to comply with the EEC Access Directive and thus debarred from being granted licences even on transfer, while new licensees may find their licences invalidated if they commit excessive breaches of the law. I expect a changing picture in the enforcement field over the next few years and will keep the needs under review.

The holder of a merchandise licence is required by law to have a vehicle plate affixed to each vehicle authorised for operation and in use under his licence. Under existing legislation the plate has to be made of metal and be of uniform pattern irrespective of whether the relevant licence is restricted as to area or commodity or in any other such manner. There has been pressure particularly by the hauliers for a change which would require the use of a distinctive plate on a vehicle in use under a restricted licence. The case has been made that this would help the Garda in enforcing road transport legislation and thereby help to curb misuse of vehicle plates in some such cases where, it is claimed, they are being used illegally in connection with haulage which does not come within the scope of the licence held. I accept generally the validity of the argument made. The provision which I propose in section 7 would give me the necessary scope to prescribe different type plates for a particular type of carriage, for instance, or for use under a restricted licence.

Vehicle plates are issued by the Garda authorities. It seems desirable that they be given authority to present evidence in court by way of a certificate signed by a chief superintendent or a superintendent acting on his behalf as to the issue or non-issue of a vehicle plate in a particular case. This would obviate the need for the attendance in court of a member of the Garda to give such evidence and would be in line with a similar provision in existing road transport legislation for the presentation of such evidence as to the issue or non-issue of a merchandise licence to a particular person or company. Section 7 contains provisions accordingly.

The provision in section 9 of the Bill tackles a problem that has existed since 1956 when, in effect, it became illegal to use a hired vehicle to carry one's own goods. This measure was passed before leasing became common-place and we now have had, for many years, the serious anomaly that a businessman can lease all the premises, plant and equipment required for his business except the transport equipment. The barrier to vehicle leasing is also, I believe, unique in the EEC. Repeal of the 1956 Act could lead to an upsurge in own account transport which would run counter to the objective of the present measure. On the other hand, some easement may enable firms who have been committing capital to own account vehicles to diversify their approach and commence leasing as a stepping-stone to the increased use of professional transport. Change could also ensure the release of capital from transport investment to investment in manufacturing equipment and job creation.

I have concluded that a controlled change in the 1956 legislation is warranted. Accordingly, I have decided to provide for vehicle leasing within the framework of the merchandise licence system and to keep the position under review. The 1956 Act will remain in force but I will have power to regulate leasing outside the provisions of the Act by the attachment of conditions to merchandise licences. I might add that decontrol of vehicles up to 2.5 metric tons in weight as is proposed in section 2 effectively repeals the 1956 Act in regard to that category of vehicle.

In preparing these legislative proposals I have taken into account considerations based on a factor for which we must also have serious regard. It is that the structure and circumstances enforced on the road freight industry of Ireland have deprived able and hard-working members of the industry of any real opportunity to earn a just reward for skill, hard work, enterprise or investment. We owe to our hauliers an opportunity to demonstrate what they can do for the Irish economy before considering measures of liberalisation running beyond those contemplated in this Bill.

There is, however, more to this than a plea based on equity alone. The present position is that the enterprising haulier who wants to expand his business, say, from 2 vehicles to 3, can do so only by acquiring another business at very high cost. The measure now proposed will allow him to expand without having to undertake that financial burden so that a very substantial cost saving will have been achieved. If there were no change, the defects of the existing system would remain and increase. CIE and the other licensed hauliers would be fighting for a diminishing share of the market and own account transport, which represents the real competition for them, would continue to develop with all its adverse cost implications. The present measure offers a positive approach to current road freight transport problems. It seeks to achieve a better balance between own account and professional transport and to lay a foundation for a new regime less costly than it might otherwise be which would meet national road freight transport needs on an improved basis with corresponding benefits to the licensed hauliers, including CIE. This main objective will have beneficial side effects of several kinds including the prospect of avoiding an excessive increase in vehicle numbers on the roads and achieving a marked and rapid improvement in some sectors, notably in relation to rural transport.

The holders of the main stock of merchandise licences and the enterprising hauliers prepared to enter international transport will be direct beneficiaries under this Bill. In my opinion this is as it should be because the former are the backbone of the haulage industry and the latter are a bright hope for the future of the industry. It is up to them to take full advantage of the opportunities which the Bill affords. All transport users should greatly benefit also not only because of an improvement in the supply of professional transport but also from the greater efficiency and economy which the Bill should make possible in transport services. The freedom which the Bill offers for the use of light vehicles is potentially one of its greatest benefits and coupled with the other benefits already mentioned should lead rapidly to a new and welcome era in the development of the Irish transport industry. I am satisfied that the package is a good one. It offers progress on many fronts and it takes full account of existing difficulties without undue compromise.

I confidently commend this Bill to the House.

This Road Transport Bill, 1978, replaces the Road Transport Bill, 1976, which was circulated by the then Minister, Deputy P. Barry, and which lapsed with the general election of 1977. Both Bills are based very substantially on the same fundamental principle of rationalisation of road haulage. Both Bills are similar basically in that they are specifically designed to liberate the road haulage industry from the shackles and restrictions of the 1933 Road Transport Act.

It is probably one of the strangest phenomena in modern economic development that, in this year of 1978, despite the advances technologically, economically and socially in this country and the rapid acceleration of industrial development, exports and so forth, the legislation governing road haulage and road transport up to now has been based fundamentally on the provisions of the 1933 Act. The case for liberalisation is overwhelming. The calls for liberalising legislation have been continuous and forceful while the arguments put forward have been convincing.

The Minister has said that this Bill is a major step forward in the evolution of a professional, modern road haulage industry and that the ultimate objective would be the creation of a haulage industry free from the frustrating quantitative controls that have given rise to so much inefficiency and which has been regulated more or less by the quality of the performance required of its members. This was the fundamental thinking behind the 1976 Bill but the difference is that that Bill envisaged going much further along the road to liberalisation than is proposed here. What the Minister is proposing is a phased programme of liberalisation. He says that what we need before an eventual pattern can materialise is a period during which we can ease away old restrictions while experimenting so far as we can as to the form and style of the flexible type of legislation now thought to be required.

Industrialists and exporters as well as many commentators in the field of transport have been advocating liberalisation measures. The 1933 Act to which the Minister refers was designed, as was subsequent legislation with the exception of the 1971 Act, to protect the road and rail freight section of CIE in the first place and, secondly, to protect the then existing licensed hauliers. While these objectives might have been achieved per se, as the Minister has said, they had very serious implications regarding the whole development of a national transport system. They had serious implications, too, for the economy because what happened was that increasing numbers of firms, unable to get professional haulage services either from CIE or from a private concern, proceeded to purchase their own vehicles with the result that we have the highest percentage of own-account transport in Europe with the exception of Luxembourg, as the Minister has said. This development had the result of forcing industrial and other commercial firms to purchase their own transport and operate it. In that way there was added a new dimension to the operation of many concerns. That was a development that most of these firms did not wish for. It led also to another situation, that was, the colossal increase in the number of vehicles on the roads since own-account vehicles were generally of the smaller type. Because of the restrictions of the 1933 Act it was not possible to develop a proper road haulage system.

I am not clear regarding the reasons for the Minister's thinking that a phased approach to liberalisation is better than what was envisaged in the 1976 Bill. Perhaps when he is replying he will elaborate on this and will tell us how long he thinks it will take to achieve the ultimate objective of the creation of a road haulage industry free from frustrating controls and restrictions.

I agree with the proposal to increase the fines in respect of illegal haulage. The amounts fixed ten years ago bear little relationship to today's values and are no longer a deterrent. I am sure that all sides of the House wish to see evolving a modern, highly-efficient transport system at the lowest cost possible but we must ensure that there are necessary controls and that illegal haulage is stamped out.

Another difference in this Bill compared with the 1976 Bill relates to the provision proposed now regarding the leasing of vehicles. Some very strong arguments have been put to me by various people who are in favour of changes in the legislation in this respect. I trust that the Minister is not hoping for the entire Bill today. It is legislation that has implications for various people. Therefore, it would be desirable that there be an opportunity between now and Committee Stage for the various people concerned to study the Bill in detail and perhaps to make representations to the Minister regarding amendments that they consider desirable. Apart from the differences I have outlined the fundamental thinking both of the Minister and of those of us on this side of the House is the same. The main difference relates to the pace of the legislation.

Although the Minister gave us a fairly detailed analysis of the road haulage industry I was disappointed with one aspect of his speech. This is the first opportunity that we have had in the lifetime of the new Dáil so far to discuss road transport. I had hoped the Minister would avail himself of this opportunity to give the House and the country his thinking, his plans and perhaps his policies for the development of a national transport agency. I recall the occasion in 1971 on which the then Minister, Deputy Lenihan, introduced a Transport Bill. At that time I made the point that that Bill was another instalment of what could be called a continuous series of uncoordinated, patchwork, ad hoc type legislative measures that had been characteristic of the history of transport here. I can say the same of this Bill. The mistake that was made in the past, a mistake that I trust the Minister is not making here, has been looking at road haulage, road transport or CIE per se without giving any thought whatsoever to the implication of those measures. One obvious implication of this Bill, the liberalisation of road transport, is the capacity of our road systems to carry the additional road transport envisaged here. When we talk about liberalising road transport we are talking about expanding it. This has serious implications vis-à-vis our road network.

When I raise the question of the capacity of our roads, the standard of our roads and so forth, which is very relevant to the liberalisation of road transport, the Minister can rightly say that the question of road maintenance and so forth is a matter for the Minister for the Environment. If I talk about the social effects of EEC transport legislation I find that certain aspects of the EEC transport regulations are administered by the Minister for Labour, for example, the controversial matter of the tachograph. The Minister for Justice has responsibility for administering other aspects of road traffic; licensing and the importation of vehicles come under the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, and excise duties come under the Minister for Finance.

There is a very important point here which is related to what I said about transport legislation here being uncoordinated and of a patchwork type. I am not saying this in any controversial fashion. Transport is a fundamental sector of our national economy and it should get a much higher order of priority in national planning, development and thinking. We are a small peripheral maritime region and we are now a member of the European Economic Community but our exporters, our industrialists and the people who are trading with Europe have to bear a higher element of transport costs than any of their competitors in the UK or the mainland of Europe. This is because we are further away from the European mainland than any of our EEC partners and we have to transport our goods much longer distances. We have as well a very long sea crossing. The result of this is that transport charges are a very important element in the cost competitiveness of Irish exports. It is vital that we should turn our energies towards achieving what I consider is the fundamental and most basic objective of national transport policy now, that is to ensure particularly our exporters, industrialists and the people who are trading with Europe have available to them the most efficient, lowest cost transport system we can provide.

I have read a lot recently on the question of transport. One fact that has emerged in relation to transport charges is that it is reckoned by independent experts that our road transport charges are 25 per cent higher than they need be and that this imposes a very severe additional burden and has a major implication for the cost competitiveness of Irish exports. Road transport is a very important element of the Irish transport scene. We have a major problem in relation to the development of road transport. It is wrong to look at road transport as the be-all and end-all of national freight transport here. We must look at the question of the liberalisation of road transport in relation to the condition of our roads.

I discovered last week that An Foras Forbartha have done a great amount of research into the capacity, the adequacy and the conditions of our road network. I did not bring the volumes from the library but one striking fact emerged from my perusal of An Foras Forbartha's report, that is that about 40 per cent of our primary roads and about the same percentage of our secondary roads are not adequate to carry the present volume of traffic. An excellent study was carried out by the Confederation of Irish Industries. They produced a report on road freight transport 1973 to 1974 in which they adverted to the question of the impact of road transport on the roadways.

An Foras Forbartha's report put the roads into different categories (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), and (f). Category (d) was considered just marginally adequate. The Foras Forbartha report found that many of the national primary routes are inadequate and cannot even give the level of service (d). Those routes include all the Dublin-Belfast routes south of Ballymascanlon, the main route from Dublin to the west as far as Enfield, the main southern route between Naas and Kildare, the south-eastern route between Dublin and Rathnew and the Cork-Limerick route between Cork and Mallow. The report says they cannot even give the level of service (d). This service is regarded as the minimum level of service. It is defined as an unstable flow of traffic, fluctuations in traffic volume and temporary restrictions which may cause substantial drops in operating speeds, drivers have little room to manoeuvre, and comfort and convenience are low. This is the position in a substantial part of our national primary routes.

I saw reports in the media about a seminar last week in Dún Laoghaire in which an official from the Department of the Environment adverted to this fact. He pointed out the totally unsatisfactory position in relation to the condition of our roads and their inadequacy to carry the volume of traffic on them. He referred to one amazing figure. The number of vehicles of all kinds on our roads increased from 250,000, 20 years ago, to 750,000 at the moment and the projections for the next ten years indicate that the number of vehicles will increase by three or fourfold.

This aspect of road transport raises the very serious national problem of the roads. The time has come when the Government must look at the transport situation, its role in the national economy, the different modes of transport and so on. We must, as a basic national objective formulate and implement a comprehensive cohesive integrated transport policy. The introduction of legislative measures to further liberalise road haulage and the role of the railways in relation to freight transport will have to be looked at. The possibilities for developing air freight transport will also have to be examined. As was pointed out recently in relation to our exports problems, there is no point in having very efficient shipping services if our internal transport network is inefficient.

One of the arguments put forward against liberalising road transport was that it would have an adverse effect on CIE. When we circulated our Bill in 1976 Fianna Fáil were so frightened that instead of allowing a Second Reading and then submitting amendments, they tabled what was known as a reasoned amendment, totally rejecting the entire 1976 Bill because the provisions in the Bill would cause heavy unemployment in the rail and road freight sections of CIE and among the employees of licensed hauliers at a time of high unemployment. They said that the Bill contained no provisions to control the standards of road transport and heavy road vehicles and that the provisions of the Bill would cause further heavy congestion on an inadequate road system and put the continuation of the railways in jeopardy. They said that the Bill would enable hauliers from outside the jurisdiction to operate an unlimited number of vehicles. Those views were expressed by Fianna Fáil about 18 months ago. The implications for CIE of liberalising road transport have been taken into account in all the transport legislation we have had since 1933. The 1933 Act did not achieve its objective which was to enable the CIE rail and road freight sections to expand. There was a decline in the volume of freight carried by road and rail by CIE. The 1933 Act was self-destructive. As a public representative I am worried about any adverse effects legislation of this kind might have on CIE. We discussed this in 1971 when we were liberalising livestock and certain agricultural commodities.

During the last week I took the trouble to look at the situation in the road freight and rail freight sections of CIE. I was delighted to find that since 1974 there has been a tremendous change for the better in the policy of CIE in relation to road and rail freight. In 1974 CIE started to implement a major modernisation programme in their road and rail freight sections. CIE have been at the receiving end of more abuse and adverse criticism than any other State company. In relation to any question about liberalising road haulage the first thing to come to mind is, "will it affect CIE?" I came across an article recently which is very relevant to this Bill, by Mr. John F. Higgins, the general manager of CIE, in a journal called Rail International. The article written last September reads as follows:

The railways are being reshaped and adapted to meet the changing needs in society and will emerge better suited to face the challenge and opportunity of the future.

In a detailed reference to road freight on page 442 of the journal Mr. Higgins went on:

The freight services are being radically overhauled to complement the attenuated network and to take advantage of the more up-to-date developments in mechanical handling. Freight handling is being centralised in twenty-five major depots fully equipped for inter-modal transfer.

There are 45 sub-depots as well. The article goes on to point out the success of CIE in developing a common modern mode of haulage on the continent. In the central depots and sub-depots there is an integrated system of feed-in by the road freight section of CIE and indeed by private hauliers as well. I am impressed by the manner in which CIE faced this challenge of modernising their road and rail freight sections. Under the restricted legislation of 1933, CIE's business was going downhill but under the new modern challenge over the last three or four years, business is increasing. In 1977 CIE carried 3.7 million tons of freight by rail and the projection for this year is 5.5 million tons. I do not hold with the argument—and I am sure the Minister recognises this—that CIE need to be protected in the way they have been since 1933. In 1974 they had to face the fact that, under EEC rules and regulations, their road freight and freight section generally, must pay its way by 1980. There have been tremendous developments made on the haulage of iron ore and other minerals, fertilisers, cement and the haulage of chemicals to industry and so on.

We need to take a look at the global transport situation, at the need to formulate and implement a national transport policy making the optimum use of the various modes of transport, road, rail and sea, internally and also that of access transport. This is a highly technical exercise, one which involves the co-operation of many disciplines and the co-ordination of many viewpoints but it is something that will have to be tackled in the very near future.

As a matter of urgency I would respectfully suggest that the Minister consider the preparation of a White Paper on transport. This would enable public debate to take place and afford us an opportunity of discussing the national implications of a transport policy. I do not know what progress has been made in the Minister's Department in regard to the setting up of a national transport council. I do not want to be petty or controversial on this point but, prior to the election last year, there was a commitment for the setting up of such a council or co-ordinating body. The Minister reiterated that commitment some time after Christmas when I asked him questions here in this regard. I should like to know what progress has been made. As a first step, I would favour the setting up of a national transport council representative of the different modes of transport whose first aim should be the publishing of a White Paper. Furthermore, based on the findings of such a White Paper, there should be formulated and implemented a comprehensive national transport policy.

I commend CIE on the progress they have made over the past few years on the modernisation of their freight section. It is probably true to say that the basic overall aim of a national transport policy should be the provision, for our exporters in particular, of the lowest cost and most efficient transport service in order to neutralise the effect of the additional long distances to be travelled to the markets of Europe and so on.

Another basic aim of any transport policy should be the taking of as much heavy freight traffic off the roads as possible. Due to the courtesy of CIE some years ago I had an opportunity of visiting the six original Common Market countries prior to our entry to the EEC, when I had an opportunity of looking at the rail and general transport systems of those countries. It was a very interesting tour lasting six or seven days. The basic aim of the transport policy of each of those countries was to transfer as much heavy traffic as was possible from the roads to the railways. I hope CIE will continue to intensify their sale of the railways for the maximum haulage of freight.

I have made inquiries with regard to what has been happening in the development of air freight. Of course, the more freight there is carried by air the less there will be to be carried on the roads and railways. I was pleased to learn from Aer Lingus that there has been a substantial upswing in the volume of freight they carry between this country and Europe. In 1972 European freight amounted to only 6 per cent of CIE's total freight business. It now amounts to over 15 per cent. We have been very interested here in the whole question of air freight because of the existence of the industrial estate at Shannon. There has been substantial industrial development in western regions in recent times, but essentially goods and raw materials are imported through east coast ports and largely exported through them also. This has created a huge additional volume of heavy freight transport on the roads. In addition to examining the possibility of attracting more business to the railways the Minister might also examine the question of attracting more business through air freight. The possibility of evolving a national ports policy will also have to be examined very seriously, particularly the development of one or two ports along the western sea-board. I would remind the Minister of the existence of the Shannon Estuary. Indeed, I hope he is not forgetting the Shannon Estuarial Bill.

I have referred to the importance of transport vis-à-vis the national economy, our position as a small country removed from European markets and the additional transport charges our businessmen must bear. There is another element that has been overlooked not merely by us but by the EEC also, that is, that transport is a vital element of regional development. I feel very strongly about this because, during my term of office as Minister for the Gaeltacht, I became very much aware of the vital dimension of transport in relation to industrial development, say, at Gweedore, Connemara, west Mayo, Dingle and so on. During that period I was abroad meeting industrialists in an endeavour to encourage them to set up industry in Gaeltacht regions. But whether I met such industrialists at home or abroad the question of the remoteness of say, Carna, Gweedore or Carrickfinn from Dublin always arose. It was for that reason that I decided, in 1973, that the fastest way possible by which we could improve transport and communication was through the development of air services, by building airfields and developing parallel air services. I understand that my successor will be in Donegal next week to open the new airfield at Carrickfinn. Therefore, transport is vitally important to regional development also.

I might make a final point in relation to the EEC. The Minister and any successor of his would need to keep a close watch on the implications of EEC regulations, new rules and so on in the field of road transport. There was the question of a tachograph in respect of which I understand we have now been given a breathing space of three years. All of these measures can have very serious effects on the whole transport system here. The EEC need to be reminded that we are a small, underdeveloped country, with a road network that will need to be improved and upgraded at a cost of hundreds of millions.

These are my observations on this Stage. I shall have something to say on a number of the provisions on Committee Stage. Basically, I favour liberalisation and I am a little doubtful as to whether or not the Minister was wise in not going the whole way along the road to liberalisation at this stage but I have an open mind on the matter.

My first remarks will be critical but not necessarily in respect of the content of the Bill or anything the Minister said in his opening speech. When a Bill of this nature is introduced we should have an explanatory memorandum circulated with it for the convenience of Deputies. The Minister may say it is a short Bill but we should have some information on the provisions of section 2 (3) of the 1933 Act, section 4 (7) of the 1934 Act and on the references also to the 1971 Act. That has been done in the past. It was done in the case of the Health Contributions Bill and, when it is done, Deputies know exactly what the references are. This is not a severe criticism. I merely mention the matter by way of suggestion to the Minister and his officials.

We had the advantage, if one could so describe it, of some information in a Press release from the GIS. That was some help. In that release the Minister said the purpose of the Bill was to strengthen the haulage industry and contain haulage costs through increased efficiency. Is the Minister confident this will be the outcome of this Bill? Will it really do that? Legislation is needed, has long been needed, to provide for proper road haulage transport and proper regulations in respect of the haulage industry in general. If the Minister is not in a position to bring forward more positive suggestions then he should accept Deputy O'Donnell's suggestion of a White Paper on road transport and haulage.

A great many people are under a misapprehension about road haulage. If you ask someone not intimately connected with road haulage he will tell you that CIE have a monopoly. We still have this cry about CIE and their monopoly. The facts, of course, are entirely different. From the information I have—I may be wrong to the extent of a few percentage points—55 per cent of the transport of goods is catered for by manufacturing companies. The professional hauliers have 17½ per cent and CIE have only 15 per cent. The balance is carried by those engaged in distribution or in the services. It is time that misapprehension was corrected. It is time the myth was exploded. CIE do not have a virtual monopoly, or any monopoly of road transport.

Whilst I would favour the nationalisation of various services I can understand the dilemma and difficulties of manufacturing companies who have one-way carriage. This has proved very expensive for them. In an article in a newspaper recently I read a statement to the effect that road haulage by manufacturing companies was in many cases up to 25 per cent of their total annual expenditure. This is due to the fact that they have only one-way carriage. I do not know if that is strictly observed. It also appears that CIE are not able to cope with manufacturers' needs. I would like the Minister to comment on that. It seems to me odd that CIE are not able to cater for manufacturers' needs. Will the Minister tell us if the share of the haulage market held by CIE will be further diminished? The professional hauliers have increased and are still increasing their share of the market.

The need for new legislation is supported by the fact that the number of haulage licences is still 750. It stood at that figure quite some years ago. That 750 is in respect of some 1,200 vehicles. How much illegal transport is there? How many operate with no licences at all or with a greater number of trucks than they are entitled to under a licence? Possibly the authorities turn a blind eye, but illegal or private transport is engaged in to a fairly large extent. If this Bill helps to prevent that it will do a good day's work.

I read in The Irish Times that we now have 10,000 vehicles, or we had in 1977, and these commercial vehicles are increasing year by year. Are they used by manufacturing companies, by legitimate hauliers or by people who have no licences to engage in the haulage business? I would be particularly concerned about the effect of this on Córas Iompair Éireann. We must be conscious of the extent to which we, as legislators, the Minister and his Government are involved. We must be concerned about the effect of any legislation on CIE. We have had to dole out quite an amount of taxpayers' money to CIE over the last few decades. I believe the Exchequer subvention to CIE this year will be in the region of £35 million. Does the introduction of this legislation mean that there must be further financial subventions made to CIE? The new Bill will put a number of people in competition with CIE for the haulage of goods and livestock.

I am informed that CIE have development plans for the improvement of the railway system. How far has consideration of these plans progressed in recent times? I would reiterate what Deputy O'Donnell and many other people say, particularly those in my party: why can we not make more use of the railways? We all know that so far as the transportation of goods is concerned CIE always seem to get the uneconomic cargo. My information is that CIE have development plans for the improvement of the rail services in respect of haulage and perhaps the Minister would comment on that.

CIE are a very vital factor in this. People are under the mistaken impression that they have a monopoly of haulage of goods, particularly on the roads. I would like to ask if CIE have been consulted about this? Do they agree that these changes are desirable? Do they protest that these proposals will have an adverse effect on their operations and on their finances? As I said before, if CIE cannot meet their debts at the end of the year, does that mean we will have to vote more money for them?

This Bill proposes to greatly increase the number of road haulage licences. "Road" must be emphasised as much as "haulage". What effect will this increase in road haulage licences have on our roads? Are our roads suitable? We all know the awful damage being done to our roads at present, not alone by the juggernauts but by the substantially increased numbers of trucks on our roads in the last ten or 15 years. I know the Minister for the Environment is concerned about this and also about the increase in the number of our motoring population.

One day last week there was a seminar on roads. The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy J. O'Leary, expressed his concern about the state of our roads and asked if they could cater for the everincreasing traffic. I am sure the Minister has noticed in his own home town, in Drogheda, Dundalk, Ardee and so on, that our roads are being broken not just by the frost and snow but by the juggernauts and big lorries which have been increasing in numbers over the last few years. For that reason it would be desirable to adopt Deputy O'Donnell's suggestion and not alone have a White Paper on goods transport but on the transport system itself, including the roads.

The roadworthiness of many of these trucks has to be questioned and the Minister in charge of road haulage should consult with his colleague, the Minister for the Environment. Without having any expert knowledge of trucks or vehicles, we can all see from the bald tyres, screeching and defective brakes that there are a number of trucks, possibly illegal trucks, which need to be checked. The maintaining of the speed limit by juggernauts and other trucks which bring cargo to our ports is possibly a matter for the Minister for the Environment, but it must also be the concern of the Minister for Tourism and Transport.

I quoted a figure of 10,000—I presume they include juggernauts—in the country at present. As a result of this legislation, how many more trucks or juggernauts, or a combination of both, will we have in one, two, three, four or five years? We are not just legislating for 1978 or 1979. I presume we are legislating for the next ten, 15 or 20 years. We know many changes will occur. We should have our eye to the future to see what the traffic position will be on our roads and ask ourselves seriously if our roads can carry the ever-increasing numbers of vehicles. The Minister will have to give us a better explanation for his proposals either in his reply or on Committee Stage.

I do not want to go into detail on this Bill because that will be a matter for the Committee Stage. When this Bill is passed there will be an obligation on people who engage in the haulage of goods to have a licence. If there are pirate hauliers—and according to all the evidence there must be— will they be stopped because they are operating to the detriment of the good hauliers and CIE? Perhaps a blind eye is being turned to this by some Department, but I do not think that is so. It is recognised, as far as CIE and certain licensed road hauliers are concerned, that there are conditions as regards wages and hours of work laid down by the various trade unions of which these drivers and their helpers may be members. The pirate appears to get away with murder and consequently is able to underquote the legitimate haulier and CIE.

In section 2 there is a need to revise fines for engaging in illegal hauling. The Minister mentioned a maximum figure for a second fine of £320. This Bill proposes that the fine for the first offence would be £250 and for the second £500. That is far too small when one considers that the legislation providing those fines was passed many years ago. The Minister should have another look at this. It must be remembered that we want to punish by way of fines those who are engaged in illegal hauling so that legitimate hauliers may be able to compete in a fair way.

Regarding section 2 (5), I would favour the exemptions which the Minister has mentioned and which are provided for here. This is desirable because I am sure that people find it difficult to engage someone with a large lorry or truck to carry small loads. Now it will be possible for someone to engage a haulier who has a vehicle or trailer which does not exceed 2.5 metric tons unladen weight.

Section 3 is one of the most important sections. According to section 3 (3) (a), an existing carrier's licence shall be multiplied by six. Section 3 (3) (b) refers to other cases but I think that these other cases were not specified by the Minister. If they were, I did not hear the reference. The maximum number of licences is to be 80. That is a shattering sort of figure, though there may be qualifications. It means that everyone who has a licence for one truck can have a licence for six. The Minister nods his head so I assume I am right. In other cases—not specified—he can have 80. Is this at the discretion of the Minister or is it given automatically? This is what I would like to know because it seems to me that we will have more trucks than people in a short while. Perhaps the Minister will clarify this point.

The carriage of cattle, sheep and pigs is also exempted, as is the carriage of harvest from the beginning of August to the end of November.

The Minister has provided in section 4 for the recognition of a licence issued by another State with which we have international agreements. I understand from the Minister's remarks that this is not confined to EEC countries and that we can have such arrangements with countries outside the EEC, possibly in eastern Europe. I do not know how we have operated up to this, whether legally or illegally, but it is good that the licensing should be on a formal and legal basis.

I am inclined to be a little parochial and I would refer the Minister to section 6. Section 6 (3) states:

Each of the following areas shall be known as a new area—

(a) the area included within a circle having a radius of twenty miles and its centre at the principal post office in the city of Dublin;

(b) the area included within a circle having a radius of twenty miles and its centre at the principal post office in the city of Cork;

This means that the radius will be increased from 15 miles to 20 miles. In the case of Limerick there was a radius of 10 miles and this is now being increased to 15 miles and there is a similar increase in respect of Waterford and Galway. Did the Minister ever think about a port called Rosslare Harbour? It is said of Rosslare Harbour that, with the new development, it will be the second port in the country. I do not see why there is this discrimination between Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway. I trust that the Minister will include Rosslare Harbour. Last week he announced that a big development scheme at Rosslare Harbour had been approved by the Government and I hope that this scheme will be initiated in a very short time. Even if all the areas do not have the same radius, Rosslare Port should be included and I will be putting down an amendment to that effect. There is no need to laud Rosslare Harbour as a port because according to the experts it will be in a very short time, if it is not already, the second port in the country.

These are the general comments I want to make on the Bill. We will have a more detailed discussion on Committee Stage. In respect of the matters I have mentioned, I trust the Minister will consider them well. I trust he will include Rosslare Harbour among those ports where licences can extend within a radius of 15 miles or 20 miles.

This is not a Bill on which one can say very much but I want to make a few brief comments. The last two speakers referred to the question of transport but this is a matter for the Department of the Environment. If we were to discuss transport in general it would be ruled out of order, but to me it is very relevant and I agree with the other speakers that this matter needs to be examined.

This Bill is absolutely essential and is overdue. We need a certain amount of liberalisation and this is what the Bill is all about. Deputy Corish referred to the number of licences which can be obtained. If a man has one licence he can now get six licences. There should be control of licences because I can envisage the country dotted with huge lorries. I am very much in favour of doing away with licences for small trucks which operate within a radius of about 20 miles. It is terrible when large trucks have to use by-roads when they are only half full. The decision to grant exemptions for farm produce is very important but I wonder how the Minister will define "harvest". What instructions will be given to the gardaí concerning the harvest?

I had not intended to speak on this Bill but I want to say that I agree with it. I remember when the restrictions were introduced years ago. They were introduced for a particular purpose but they did not do what they were intended to do because the services provided at that time and since were not what the private individual wanted. The result was that anyone in business bought a lorry or a truck of his own and these took away business from public transport. Anyone who could afford a truck bought one. I am very worried about the use of our roads by very heavy trucks and I would not like to see too many of them. County Galway was supposed to have the second best roads in the country but it appears that after a few very dry summers the roads have deteriorated. There should be certain restrictions imposed with regard to licences. Our roads are not capable of carrying heavy trucks. When we are discussing the Department of the Environment I shall discuss the merits or otherwise of trucks and rail transport.

This Bill is necessary and it can be teased out on Committee Stage. I agree with the approach adopted by two speakers on the Opposition benches. They dealt with the Bill in an objective way. I am sure we will be able to improve the Bill on Committee Stage. On Second Stage discussions of any Bill there are usually speeches of a political nature but on Committee Stage each section is discussed and dealt with on its merits. Many Bills have been improved as a result of discussion on Committee Stage.

I welcome the Bill and I congratulate the Minister on introducing it. I understand it will get the support of all sides of the House. It is long overdue. We should have had a Bill like this some years ago but better late than never. I wish again to emphasise the desirability of restricting the number of licences granted for heavy vehicles. Those vehicles are a hazard. Our roads are not able to carry them. I congratulate the Minister on what he has done with regard to smaller trucks. This will be of considerable benefit to the agricultural community.

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús buíochas a ghabháil leis na Teachtaí a labhair. Tá sé soiléir go ndearna siad staidéar ar an mBille agus tá mé buíoch dóibh as ucht an méid a bhí le rá acu. Tig liom a rá leo go ndéanfaidh mé scrúdú ar an méid atá ráite acu agus tá súil agam nuair a bheidh am againn le dul isteach ins an Bhille go mion go mbeidh an Bille, mar adéarfá, i gceart do na ghnaithe gur cuireadh os cómhair na Dála é.

Briefly, I wish to thank the Deputies who have spoken. It is obvious that they have studied the Bill and the suggestions they made will be considered very carefully. Deputy O'Donnell mentioned the 1976 Bill. My fear with regard to that Bill was that it might tend towards monopoly situations but I do not think the present measure is susceptible to the criticisms raised in this House with regard to the 1976 Bill. It differs from that measure in the essential respect that it contains safeguards against monopolisation of the market either by home or foreign hauliers in a manner that would be prejudicial to the interests of the licensed hauliers, including CIE and their employees, as well as the railways. It introduces in a positive way the principle of qualitative control in relation to licensing that was not provided for in the 1976 measure. It will have increasing backup from the EEC directive on vehicle testing which must be phased in by 1 January 1983. The roads programme in so far as it may be affected by the present proposals will be given due consideration by the Minister for the Environment.

I felt it was better to try to phase in this programme in order to give us an opportunity to study the effects of what we are doing and also to study the effect of what further liberalisation would be likely to mean to the haulage industry in general. The basic aim in relation to the Bill is to try as much as possible to encourage people who are involved presently in what we call own-account transport to use both CIE and other licensed professional hauliers.

Deputy Corish raised a point in relation to CIE when he suggested that perhaps this Bill would have the opposite effect on CIE, that is, that the relatively small percentage of the market they have at present would become even smaller. I think the Deputy will agree that the main contenders for business that the professional hauliers and CIE have at the moment are the own-account people. They have a very high percentage of the total while the licensed hauliers and CIE have a relatively small percentage of the total. This is more or less in conflict with the situation that exists in other EEC countries.

Has the Minister an estimate of the proportion of CIE's business?

The road freight is roughly 8 per cent. There are different statistics in relation to this.

We are out by 100 per cent.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin South Central): That is not so.

I am convinced that CIE as well as the professional hauliers will benefit from this Bill in the sense that, hopefully, own-account people will be encouraged to change from having their own vehicles to utilising CIE and the professional hauliers. I know this will not happen in every case but it will happen in many instances.

I made a study of this own-account business and I should like to see it changed in two respects. In itself it is uneconomic. As Deputy Corish mentioned, they are able to carry in one direction only and because they cannot take a load back or out, depending on which direction they are carrying their own goods, it is uneconomic in that sense.

Deputy Corish also mentioned the possibility that there might be more vehicles on the roads because of this. In actual practice, from experience in other countries, the opposite is likely to happen. The reason is that an own-account lorry travelling laden in one direction and travelling back without a load means that two vehicles have to do the work of one. If they were using professional hauliers or CIE, loads could be brought in both directions. Possibly there will be a reduction because of that.

I have some figures which show that the number of vehicles in the Republic increased from 44,000 in 1959 to 47,000 in 1966 and to 54,000 in 1976, whereas in Northern Ireland the number was 33,000 in 1959, 43,000 in 1966—and in that year transport was completely liberalised—and in 1976 it was down to 40,000, 3,000 less. Admittedly this could have something to do with the size of the vehicles as well. My main concern in relation to the own-account situation is that the capital that many small industrialists must invest in transport could be much more beneficially invested in their own business, and possibly could produce more jobs, rather than by being invested in their own vehicles. For that reason alone, if people who are using their own vehicles for the transport of their own goods would change over to the professional hauliers their financial situation would be much better and they would have a better opportunity to develop their own industries.

Deputy O'Donnell suggested that I should have spent more time dealing with general transport matters, but he will admit that, in dealing with the Bill which has a specific purpose, it is rather difficult to deal with transport generally. We gave a commitment in our election manifesto to introduce a transport consultative commission and we are actively pursuing that.

Will the Minister set up a transport council?

I cannot say exactly when it will be ready. The Deputy will know from his own experience that these things have to be examined by various Departments who have an interest in them. Therefore, it is not possible for me to say anything further at the moment.

I was pleased that Deputy Corish and Deputy O'Donnell had complimentary remarks to make about CIE. CIE get a lot of stick. Because they are a public transport system, people tend to think they should be capable of dealing with every possible emergency. In the circumstances in which they find themselves, CIE are doing a reasonably good job. As was mentioned by both Deputies, recently they have been attempting to streamline their activities and this is proving very worth while. There are areas, of course, where they can be criticised, but that is possible in relation to any transport company or to anything on this earth. As I said, far from losing out on this Bill I think they should gain from it.

The question of the railways was also raised. It does not relate specifically to the Bill. It is EEC policy to preserve the railways and to utilise them in so far as it is possible to do so. That is also the policy here. The railways lend themselves to particular types of transport and CIE are endeavouring to give the best possible service.

Reference was also made to the new approach in the Bill with regard to leasing. As I said in my opening speech, my main concern in this area is to give an opportunity to various industrialists who have their own transport to ease themselves out of that type of transport through a leasing system and eventually to utilise professional hauliers and CIE also are professional hauliers.

Deputy Corish's figures on CIE are, I think, based on an analysis of transport expenses. I am told CIE and the other hauliers are now estimated to have only about 10 per cent or 11 per cent of road tonnage.

These are up-to-date figures. Mine were last year's.

CIE have less than 5 per cent. In those circumstances CIE will do better under the new system than under the present system. Deputy Callanan asked how we define harvest time. It is from August to November inclusive. That should cover the harvest period reasonably well.

Unless you are a lazy farmer.

Deputy Corish raised the question of illegal haulage. Apart altogether from fines, illegal haulage should be phased out by degrees because of the fact that licensed hauliers will be able to give a more efficient service and to put more vehicles on the road than previously.

Deputy Corish referred to the multiple of six and the maximum of 80. The fact in relation to the 80, is that it deals with a situation where a multiple of six because of the number of vehicles on a specific licence, would actually give the licensee much more than 80. I confined the number to 80. The vast majority of the licences have only one vehicle on them. A certain number have two. There are a few which have quite a number, in one instance 22, which would mean very considerably more than 80. In the 1976 Bill there were no limitations whatsoever. In this Bill I decided to limit the total to 80. From experience there will be very few hauliers who will have 80 vehicles on the road.

If I had 12 now I could have 72. Is that so?

If one had 12 on one's licence, yes.

That is a big increase, is it not?

It was difficult to work out an equitable system.

The maximum is very high.

As I said before, the position in relation to the 1976 Bill was that there was no limitation at all so that one could have 1,000 if one wanted. Considering the cost of the vehicles I doubt if many would be interested in having 80 vehicles.

The Deputy also mentioned Rosslare Harbour. The areas I have referred to were known as exempted areas. They are now being abolished and I am adding on a number of miles. I do not think it would be to the advantage of Rosslare to be an exempted area. Rosslare Harbour would, however, have the benefit of the import-export licence, a new type of licence.

Is the Minister aware that there is some confusion about statistics? For instance, we were trying to arrive at the percentage road haulage CIE carried. Is the Minister aware that the last official transport statistics available to us are contained in a survey carried out in 1964 by the CSO? I suggest it is desirable that we carry out another survey to update the 1964 figures, the only ones available to us, other than a study carried out by the Confederation of Irish Industry.

We are able to come within a reasonable figure.

From the point of view of ascertaining what the problems are the only figures available to us are those of the CSO. It is difficult to assess the transport problem because of that.

I am informed that the EEC are planning to make new statistics available.

The Bill is a short one. Deputy Corish complained about the fact that there was no Explanatory Memorandum but I followed a precedent set when the 1976 Bill was circulated. I did not make available an Explanatory Memorandum but issued a Press release. I accept that it would have been helpful if an Explanatory Memorandum was circulated. Although this is a short Bill its provisions are wide ranging. It is a Bill of opportunity for the haulage industry. If hauliers and users take advantage of the opportunities offered we should bring into prospect a genuinely thriving road freight transport industry which will make a positive contribution to the welfare of the economy. I look forward to a new and better era in road freight haulage of which this Bill is the initial measure.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take next Stage?

On the first day after the Recess.

I do not think I will be available during that week.

It is a matter which will be considered by the Whips. I was merely making the usual comment at this stage.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 5 April, 1978.
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