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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Apr 1978

Vol. 305 No. 5

Vote 9: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £36,173,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December 1978 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; for expenditure arising from damage to the property of External Governments; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.
—(Minister for Finance).

In relation to national monuments, greater emphasis should be placed on their protection and preservation by the Board of Works. They reflect our appreciation and regard for our background, culture and heritage. Other nations with lesser wealth are now seeking to restore their national monuments. We should ensure that our national monuments are restored and protected. They have a very important cultural role to play. I should like to recap for a few moments in relation to the provision of jetties and berthing places on the river Shannon. I believe that the Office of Public Works should have greater consultation with the boating interests on the Shannon. I refer particularly to the Irish Boat Rental Association. I am reliably informed that while those people are grateful to the Minister and his Department for the fine services which exist on the Shannon at the moment they would like the Department, if possible to provide a greater number of less expensive jetties. Tourists enjoy the solitude on the Shannon. It is important that they are not deprived of navigating the Shannon by having to berth in places which are already overcrowded. It would be a great advantage to the tourists who wish to enjoy the amenities of the Shannon if there were more jetty facilities and they were located in less conspicuous places.

In recent years the purchase of lands alongside the Shannon by private individuals for speculative purposes in some cases is depriving the public at large of a very important right of access to some places adjacent to the Shannon. This could be the Irish public or tourists from abroad. The Minister's Department should play their part in the development of any access lands to the Shannon in ensuring that if they are acquired by the local authorities, the Land Commission or private individuals, proper amenities are provided in those areas. We do not want to see the river Shannon becoming the place for a particular category of people who can afford to purchase land to the exclusion of all other tourists, whether Irish or those from abroad who are so welcome. I hope the Minister can see his way to extending the amenities in the areas adjacent to the Shannon to ensure access from our main roads to the Shannon.

I am delighted to note that there is a particular emphasis in the Minister's speech on the improvement and development of our school buildings. We are less fortunate in the west than people in other parts of the country in relation to the erection of schools. We are required to pay a fraction of the cost to the Board of Works. It is easier for people in the better developed areas of the country to make this type of contribution than it is for people in Roscommon, Leitrim and many places in the west generally. We have the same right to education, and our children have the same right to proper facilities. It is important that in the formative years of their educational and physical development proper buildings and proper facilities be provided for them.

Most Irish homes in the latter years of this century have been brought up to date. The standard of living has vastly improved and is continuing to be improved by the provision of water and sewerage facilities. Have our educational structures, particularly where primary education is provided, been kept in line with the improvements in other areas? It is a contradiction to have a child living in a home with at least the minimum standards of cleanliness and hygiene having to go to a school which may be badly furnished, be damp and may have only very poor toilet facilities. This is an intolerable situation. People with the wonderful ability of teachers who can contribute so much to the well-being of our young people deserve better treatment. One could describe the teaching profession as unusual because they have never been as vocal as other professional people would be if they had to work in the conditions which exist in some of our schools. I believe they do not complain as much as other people would because of their concern for the children whose education they are responsible for.

The Minister and his Department should ensure that there are at least minimum standards in all our school buildings so that our teachers will be able to provide for the education of our children. We should not have different sets of standards between home and school. We cannot have a proper hygiene campaign or a proper health campaign or proper concern for our physical development unless we have educational establishments where this care and respect for ourselves is catered for. We would like our primary school teachers to be able to continue teaching our children how to be clean, how to have a sense of values and an appreciation for physical development and hygiene generally.

If schools have standards that are less than the standards maintained in homes there will be a conflict in any efforts being made by any other Department in this regard. We cannot have double standards where children at very formative years are concerned. The Minister is initiating a great incentive in the minds of Dáil Deputies and ultimately the public, by the manner in which he presented his address today. I see in it an extension of the Government's intention and commitment to provide the incentive, the growth and the opportunity that will ultimately create wealth and that wealth will create a better standard of living for all. I am satisfied and confident that the Minister and his very capable officials will pursue at all levels in the Department anything that is in the best interests of the people in relation to improved standards of living, education and so on.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

I apologise for calling a quorum, but I feel that there should always be a quorum in the House.

Deputy Mitchell cannot discuss the quorum.

The Phoenix Park is the responsibility of the Minister of State. It is no longer warranted that the Phoenix Park should be under the Office of Public Works. A very strong case can be made for the transfer of the responsibility for the Phoenix Park to Dublin Corporation.

The Deputy cannot advocate that here because it would require legislation and we cannot advocate legislation on an Estimate. It may look a bit harsh, but that is the position.

The Phoenix Park is a major amenity in the city and there should be co-ordination between this park and other parks under the control of the Office of Public Works and the parks under the control of Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council. The public would be better served if the amenities were better co-ordinated and were under the responsibility of one section. Dublin Corporation receive representations from the residents' associations, the community associations and sporting clubs and so on for the provision of amenities. It is extraordinary that the Phoenix Park is not under the control of the corporation and that the corporation cannot influence the provision of amenities there. I know the Minister of State was good enough to meet a deputation from Dublin Corporation in the recent past to discuss the provision of certain amenities in the Phoenix Park and I hope the Minister will give those representations and my proposal serious and urgent consideration. The Minister has a lot of other responsibilities and should divest himself of the responsibility for the Phoenix Park and give it to the local authority. The Minister should do the same in relation to other parks such as St. Stephen's Green which is at present under his control. This would not only benefit the population at large because of co-ordinated amenities but there would be a financial saving because of co-ordinated administration.

Going from the Phoenix Park I want to speak about what was once proposed as the Phoenix Park Extension, also under the control of the Office of Public Works and in my constituency. This has been barren land for many years. The late Deputy Noel Lemass, who also represented my constituency and had the honour of being in charge of the Office of Public Works, did propose that this would be an extension of the Phoenix Park, with overhead bridges across the road, over the Liffey, and that there would be a municipal golf course there. I do not know what happened to that proposal. I am not so sure that my constituents want a municipal golf course. I think there should be a municipal golf course. In that area of Inchicore, Ballyfermot and Chapelizod there is much greater need for football fields, tennis courts, basketball courts and so on. Together with the other two public representatives in my constituency, Deputy Dr. O'Connell and Deputy Eileen Lemass, I have made many representations on the question of provision of sporting facilities for that area. Most of what is locally known as the Memorial Park is in Inchicore, which is in the centre of our constituency. The corporation do not have any land at all, any green space in Inchicore. Therefore, there is one single football pitch in that area. In Ballyfermot there are a number of football pitches although few when compared with the population there. Because of the relatively low number of football pitches, the corporation have had to confine allocations there to teams from Ballyfermot so that, in the next three parishes, which are in Inchicore, there are no football pitches and no pitches available nearby to be allocated. Yet there is this barren land, barren as long as I can remember—and I was born and reared in the area—in the hands of the Office of Public Works. I would urge the Minister to transfer that land to Dublin Corporation, or put it at the disposal of the corporation mainly for amenity purposes.

There is one other major problem in that area about which the Minister of State will be hearing from all the representatives of the area, that is. the question of the proposed western motorway—in fact it is called the Chapelizod by-pass but is really the western motorway. The current proposals involve an extension of the present dual-carriageway which cuts across the top of the Memorial Park, knocking down a local pub cum social centre, locally known as The Ranch, going in front of about 100 houses on Sarsfield Road and going over a number of houses at bedroom level in Chapelizod. That could be avoided if the proposal made by me and other public representatives was accepted. It would involve cutting across the present land of the Office of Public Works. If necessary there could be a transfer of land involved because, where the present road is located, could be handed over to the Office of Public Works. I would ask the Minister to give the representations we will be making on this most favourable consideration. I think the officials of Dublin Corporation would be happy to accept it because the only problem they saw the several times it was raised was that: "Well, that was Office of Public Works land and we would not get it." If the Minister gives our proposal favourable consideration it would be a better road, causing much less social dislocation than the present plan. Anybody who travels regularly to the west knows that there is very urgent need for a proper road especially as far as Kilcock where the present road is an absolute disgrace. I feel that, although I know there are bodies in my constituency who feel there is no need for any road there. I do not agree with them. But I do agree with them in so far as the seven or eight points of objection could all be met if the land to which I have referred was handed over by the Office of Public Works. I would urge the Minister of State to give that matter his immediate consideration.

I would urge him also to place the rest of that land at the disposal of Dublin Corporation for amenity purposes in that heavily populated area. As the Minister is probably aware that constituency is the smallest in size physically in the country. It also has one of the lowest quotas. Firstly, it is the most densely-populated constituency in the country and, secondly has the highest incidence of young people. Therefore amenities are badly needed. It is a scandal to allow land lie there undeveloped when it could be used for amenity purposes which the late Deputy Noel Lemass—who represented his constituency so well and whose wife so ably represents it now— had in mind. I urge the Minister to be as sympathetic as possible to the suggestion I make.

Reverting to the Phoenix Park I should like to raise a point in relation to the Zoological Gardens. I am a member of the Zoological Gardens, which merely means I can go there whenever I like. I understand there was a proposal to extend the Zoo into the hollow alongside it where there is a bandstand and so on. I do not know what happened that proposal. I have a feeling it was discouraged, if not rejected, by the Office of Public Works at some stage. I thought it an excellent idea; it arose when I was Lord Mayor of Dublin. Indeed I thought it was so sensible it would be accepted automatically. Certainly it would not only enhance the Zoo but the park and its amenities also. I would support the extension of the Zoo into that area going towards the North Circular Road gate. Perhaps the Minister would comment on that when replying.

Being a Dublin Deputy, a Dubliner and a former Lord Mayor I am concerned at the appalling deterioration of our city centre. I know that is local government area. The reason I raise this matter here is that I do not know of any building of note in the past 60 years, in other words since Independence, erected in Dublin. All the impressive public buildings were erected in the bad old British days. That is an undeniable fact. This House, the Customs House the Four Courts, King's Hospital, the King's Inns, the Bank of Ireland, Trinity College and some others were all built back in those days. Admittedly the Customs House and the Four Courts had to be restored after they were damaged in the earlier years of this century. It is an undeniable fact that not one impressive building has been built in this city since independence and, when I say "impressive", I mean a building one would feel compelled to show to visitors. Yet, in this complex we have everything crammed in and I really mean crammed in. Deputy Doherty referred to conditions. We have the National Library, the National Gallery, two museums, the College of Art and the College of Science all crammed into this complex.

While I want to see the inner city developed, and this is something I have been supporting in the corporation and something which is going a little better now, it is not just enough to build dwellings, even expensive dwellings, under the guise of making this a living city when all around those dwellings there is nothing but decay. The area between the canals is full of urban decay. I put this to the Minister of State——

He is not responsible.

He is responsible for public buildings.

He has responsibility for public buildings and the Deputy is quite right in saying that but he has no responsibility for urban decay.

I think, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you should have an official residence.

Do not ask the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to comment on that.

Deputy Doherty and others have referred to our being crammed. He said there were three and four Deputies to a room. There are rooms in which there are eight, nine and ten Deputies with only one telephone. It is quite impossible to work under such conditions and, if we had the help we should have, I shudder to think what the position would be. Meantime we have all these buildings to which I referred crammed in around us. If we are to do our work properly, represent our constituents properly, consider legislation properly and run the country properly we must have proper working conditions. I am spokesman on Labour for Fine Gael and I would be ashamed to think any employers would get away with the working conditions we have to put up with. These conditions affect more than Deputies and Senators. They affect staff. The Minister should address himself to this problem as a matter of urgency.

I think it would be a good idea to seek new premises for some of the agencies that surround us. We have heard a great deal about the north centre city recently and we will hear more. That area would be enhanced by a new National Library. The area needs more than an injection of just new buildings. It wants an injection of notatble buildings to improve the area and give people in the area something of which to be proud. I believe the decay to which I referred has a very bad effect on people's attitudes to the city and on their civic duties.

There is a coincidence of need here. It is a bad thing that such a long time should pass since the last building of note was erected. It must be over 100 years. There is need for a concert hall. The hall in UCD is to be converted or has been converted. That hall could have been erected in north central Dublin to improve the appearance of the area and boost the morale of those living in the area. If the National Library, the National Gallery and the National College of Art were similarly re-sited elsewhere that would improve accommodation for Deputies and Senators and for the staff in this complex.

Like many people I have been critical of what we call "the public service." I believe public servants are of high calibre and unquestionable integrity. Sometimes they are blamed for slowness. Let us examine the reasons for that slowness. I visited the Land Commission recently and I was put out when I saw the conditions under which the staff worked. A Safety in Industry Bill will be coming in here shortly. It will not deal with safety in offices, but there is an Office Premises Act. I worked for many years with Guinness's and I have knowledge of some other firms. I know the sort of seating, desks, filing cabinets and cloakroom accommodation provided and, if they were not provided, the firms would not be so efficient and successful and certainly morale would not be very high. In too many areas of the public service we see bad working conditions and I want any criticism I have made in the past or will make in the future to be tempered by an acknowledgment of the fact that not in every case are civil servants working in the best conditions nor do they have in every case the most up-to-date equipment. I urge the Minister to provide up-to-date and adequate facilities for the Public Service as quickly as possible.

When I was Lord Mayor of Dublin I was appalled when told by the City Manager that a City Hall has been proposed for Dublin since 1908. The project has always met with opposition for one reason or another, either money was not available or there was a question of archaelogical sites and so on, but meanwhile the staff have had to continue working in very bad conditions. They are criticised by everyone for being inefficient but the state of their working conditions must be taken into account. The same situation applies in some parts of the public service. It is not good enough. The State must give an example to industry and to private employers.

The Office of Public Works are the main Government agency responsible for buildings but they are not liable, as is everybody else, to the planning laws. That is a pity and the situation should be changed. The Office of Public Works should have to apply to a local authority in the normal way for planning permission when they are proposing to undertake any project.

Again, the Deputy is advocating a change in legislation and he is not entitled to do this in a debate on an Estimate.

I am not a lawyer——

I am not a lawyer either but I can assure the Deputy that in an Estimate debate a Member may not advocate new legislation or criticise legislation.

I am not criticising legislation. The OPW are responsible for buildings and the furnishing of such buildings on behalf of the State and they should give an example in working conditions and in other areas also. I know the Minister will consider carefully the matters I have mentioned. He is known and respected in this House as a gentleman and a fair man. I am not saying he will agree with what I am suggesting but I know he will give the matter fair consideration. It is important that the State should set an example in this matter. It is a reflection on the State and on the representatives of the people when we tolerate conditions that are not fair. In Dublin there should be buildings that will enhance the city. There is the danger that buildings built in the same generation will deteriorate at the same time.

With regard to the telephone system in Leinster House. I understand that later this year a new system will be in operation. The Minister should ensure that Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas and the staff should each have a telephone. Up to recently I shared a room with four other Members of this House; now there are three of us in a smaller room. We have a direct outside number and an extension of the Leinster House number. In the room adjoining where there are ten rural Deputies they have one direct line and, consequently, they have to make use of our telephone. It is totally impossible to work in such conditions. Since the Dáil resumed there has been some improvement but we have a long way to go before the situation can be regarded as satisfactory. We have been provided with a filing cabinet but we have not got the file holders. I do not know if the OPW are responsible for such matters. We are not supplied with paper clips; at least I was told they were not issued. We are really getting to a ridiculous stage when we start talking about paper clips. I am sure the Minister will rectify that matter as soon as possible.

The most important need is for Deputies and Senators—for Deputies in particular—to have reasonable privacy and reasonable working conditions. For instance, it is impossible to dictate letters into a dictaphone when there are four other Deputies in the room—one may be on the telephone and another may be receiving constituents. Work cannot be done in such circumstances. There is a stark and urgent need for much more office space for Members of this House.

I know that if I talk about the subject of salaries or money that I shall be ruled out of order. Secretarial assistance is available but it is of a minor nature and the matter needs to be examined.

I am sure the Minister is not responsible.

He is responsible in the sense that the sort of assistance I am referring to cannot be provided until the accommodation is available here.

The Deputy is entitled to make the argument that the building is not capable of facilitating Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Before the Office of Public Works conclude their examination of the position in regard to accommodation here they should consult with the Minister responsible for recruiting staff so that they can get an idea of the staff accommodation that will be required in the near future. If Members are to carry out their work properly they must be given assistance and it will be necessary to provide accommodation for such staff. This is the only country in the EEC and the OECD where Members are not given full secretarial assistance.

I should now like to deal with national monuments. The National Monuments Advisory Committee of Dublin Corporation have been in conflict with the city council after the Council passed a vote of no confidence in that committee because of the issue in relation to the Wood Quay excavations, a matter the Office of Public Works have an interest in through the National Museum. There has been much hullabaloo about this excavation and the corporation, the National Museum and the Office of Public Works have been criticised in relation to this work.

I do not think the Office of Public Works enter into this matter.

The Office of Public Works are in consultation with the Dublin city manager about the site. Would the Minister like to tell the House what the position is?

I would rather not comment because, as the Deputy is aware, there is a case before the High Court.

I do not feel that is the responsibility of the Minister and it would be as well if the Deputy moved away from that subject.

Is the National Museum the responsibility of the Minister?

The National Museum building is the responsibility of the Minister but the administration of the museum is not.

I will not labour the point because I understand the sensitivity of the matter, particularly in view of the fact that it may be sub judice. I am aware that the office are interested in the archaeological find and I hope that mistakes made in the past will now be obviated by the intervention of the office.

There is an urgent need for a new city hall in Dublin so that the workers of Dublin Corporation will have proper facilities and so that the city can be efficiently administered. I am not a great supporter of erecting a lot of monuments but some people ought to be remembered by the erection of one. A few monuments were erected in recent years, one to Wolfe Tone at St. Stephen's Green and one to Thomas Davis at College Green. In connection with the latter I should like to state that the water fountain there never worked.

The Office of Public Works are only responsible for national monuments. I do not think the Davis monument is a national monument.

It is. When I questioned the city manager about the fact that the fountain was not working I was told that it was the responsibility of the Office of Public Works. That fountain worked for three weeks but after somebody threw a packet of Rinso into it it was turned off. Many people should be remembered by the erection of a monument. Most European countries have a system whereby they honour noted citizens but we do not and those who have contributed significantly to the country ought to be remembered in perpetuity. A monument is a fitting way of doing that. For instance, Eamon de Valera, President of the Provisional Government, President of the country and Taoiseach on many occasions, should be remembered in that manner. It is my view that those who served as President and those who served as Taoiseach should be remembered in this way. I was happy to be a member of the Coalition majority on the city council which conferred on Eamon de Valera the Freedom of the City, the highest honour that can be conferred on anybody here. Other politicians ought to be remembered in that manner such as William T. Cosgrave, Michael Collins and Seán McBride. We have ignored such people even though they are recognised abroad.

The role of the Office of Public Works is to preserve national monuments and I do not think they are concerned about the building of such monuments unless they are asked to do so by the State. In that event it is a matter for another Estimate.

Some section of the Government machine should have responsibility for this.

It should be raised on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

I will be happy to raise it on that Estimate.

They have full responsibility for the preservation of national monuments and their provision when they are ordered to provide them by other Departments.

I should like to ask who provided the various monuments that have been provided for which the Office of Public Works are responsible. I should like the Minister to tell me when replying and how it came about that they were landed with this job.

What the Deputy is talking about are memorials.

The Thomas Davis memorial and the Wolfe Tone memorial.

These are not national monuments.

But they are memorials—is there a difference? There is still a hoarding around the Thomas Davis memorial. It was damaged some time ago and the hoarding has been there for quite some time. When I was Lord Mayor and paid a courtesy call on the late President Ó Dálaigh, he took me to task over this monument. I had to tell him that it was the responsibility of the Office of Public Works. This is going on a long time and I would ask the Minister to ensure that it is put right as soon as possible. I understood that the Thomas Davis memorial was built by the Office of Public Works and also the Wolfe Tone memorial.

They have been built by them but their provision is not the role of the office——

Provided by them?

They may, as agents for other Departments, provide buildings and monuments but the Minister would have no responsibility to say that he would build a monument to anybody. That would be the responsibility of the Government or the Taoiseach.

I shall not labour the point but there are people who should be remembered with fitting memorials so placed as to enhance the city. For instance, the Garden of Remembrance in Parnell Square is a nice park but it is in an obscure place and squeezed in —there is a lot of that in Dublin. That could be a more beautiful park which would enhance the city in a more open site. I wanted to make that point about memorials and national monuments. That leads me to the memorial park to which I referred earlier in relation to derelict land. It comes from the British Memorial Park which is in the centre of this derelict land. It is a very beautiful memorial. I think that is the responsibility of the Office of Public Works and I compliment the Minister on the manner in which it is maintained and I encourage him to maintain it as an open park for the public. It also happens to be in my constituency.

Again, I congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment. This is his first Estimate and I wish him well. I hope that when he replies to the debate he will take up some of the points I have made.

I congratulate the Minister of State and his Department on this Estimate. Probably no Department get more abuse among the plain people of Dublin—I often hear it—than the Office of Public Works, while it is probably true that few Departments deserve more credit. They do not engage in public relations exercises, except occasionally perhaps and not as a general habit, and consequently people do not always know the good that is done by the OPW. It is only when you come to consider the Estimate that you see the extent and value of the work done by the Office of Public Works. I am sorry that those we represent cannot see the scope and value of the work of this office.

I fully support the strengthening of this office and the increase given in the Estimate which has increased by 36 per cent to £36 million, a very substantial increase. Contrary to what some Deputies said earlier, I think it is fair to say that the Minister for Finance is making fairly useful provision for this office in this Estimate by granting an increase of 36 per cent.

One increase I see is £1.256 million for Garda stations and Courts of Justice. The major part of this is clearly allocated for Garda stations throughout the country with major works amounting to £980,000 and minor works of various kinds amounting to £160,000 and extensions amounting to £30,000 and also some works at Garda H.Q. to the value of £10,000. This involves considerable expenditure on Garda stations generally which is very welcome because under this Government there has been an increase in membership of the Garda Síochána generally. There has been a tremendous increase in their morale and it is only right that the Office of Public Works should be increasing facilities for the Garda. When I go abroad I am very impressed by the standard of our Garda Síochána and it is only right that we should ensure that many of the old, delapidated facilities which they were prepared to work with are altered to their satisfaction so as to make their lives more satisfactory.

There is an allocation of £20,000 for training which is related particularly to improvements in the swimming pool. It is very much worth while to have this allocation for training but I would like further facilities provided for the men who have come out of training and are dispersed throughout the country. In Dublin city and county and in the adjoining areas there is a vast number of gardaí now and perhaps it is time we considered the possibility of providing facilities for continuing training for them. The Minister might take up this with other Ministers concerned in terms of future planning. It would be very desirable to have good training and physical recreational facilities for gardaí in Dublin particularly and in other centres throughout the country.

I note that the courts are to be given some extra accommodation and there are also to be some new courts. The estimates for these have not been made as yet and so there are smaller figures included at this stage. Everybody will welcome any improvement which the Board of Works can bring to the court accommodation problem, both for those attending to assist at courts and for court staffs throughout the country. It is one feature about which we can have very little pride when we look at the country as a whole. The facilities have improved but there is a great deal lacking as yet and it is an area to which we need to give considerable attention, especially to make these courts places which are much more human and more suitable for people to visit.

In relation to public building I notice there is a very considerable programme of decentralisation where planning is proceeding for new Government offices in Athlone, Cork, Carrick-on-Shannon, Thurles, Portlaoise and Kilkenny. This is an excellent trend which I welcome very much. It is not an easy thing to do at any stage but it certainly is very desirable and a very worth-while thing in terms of the development of the provinces and regions of the country as a whole. In this connection I see that at Earlsfort Terrace the Estimate includes a figure of £2 million for the concert hall and £600,000 is to be provided during 1978. I am very pleased to see this concert hall going ahead, but in terms of decentralisation I would agree with other Deputies who have raised the point about bringing some of these facilities—I am talking about some of the facilities only—to where many of the people now are, around the suburban and spread-out areas of Dublin. I cannot let this pass without noting the fact that St. Anne's estate at Raheny has a wonderful seting for a public building. The fact that it happens to be in my constituency is what brings it to my mind, because I am out there so often. This park has been developed and there was a very large mansion in the centre of it. There is a wonderful avenue through trees right up to this site, which is now virtually derelict. In terms of decentralising Dublin I have always considered that that would be a very valuable site for a public building. I would like to see something like the concert hall or the National Library or some other building of major status going out to the north side.

There is a certain prejudice in the city of Dublin against the north side, and as one who came originally from the south side I can afford to stand up and say that. We are very lacking on the north side in these kinds of public buildings and public offices and we are quite unbalanced in that sense. This should be borne in mind in future developments. Over the last ten years we have seen an enormous growth in the population, particularly on the north side to the extent that that area is now very largely built-up and if sites are not set aside now there will not be room for anything like this in the future.

In relation to national parks I am also pleased to see tremendous emphasis on them throughout the country. Many of us have visited these. Indeed, there are some of them, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, in your own country of Wexford which are splendid. The Kennedy Memorial Park is one of the wonderful very recent developments and there is the bird sanctuary in the salt marshes on the left-hand side as you go into Wexford. That area of slobland and the Kennedy Memorial Park are two of the more recent developments which are wonderful to have from a national point of view. In this respect I would like to congratulate the Office of Public Works on the work which they are doing in developing these national parks over the country. I will not refer to them all. Other speakers have listed them from Killarney up to Donegal. I am glad to see this emphasis in this Estimate. We have a valuable heritage here. I understand that it is hoped that Wicklow will be included in these national park areas in the future. It is a vast amenity area which was known for a long time as the Garden of Ireland.

The Botanic Gardens is another very important area mentioned here. There are many students in Dublin who take advantage——

Is that under the Board of Works?

The Minister said:

...The items include new buildings, alterations and additions to existing buildings at various agricultural centres and improved accommodation at the Botanic Gardens,...

Some of these are under either Agriculture or Lands, like the ones in Wexford.

I appreciate that. It is a confusing situation.

It is very hard to know.

In part there are dual responsibilities; I accept that as well. The Minister mentioned it and there are works being carried out in regard to it. For the people on the north side of Dublin the Botanic Gardens is a very important establishment and one to which most of us bring our children on numerous occasions. I congratulate the Minister on the work that he is undertaking there especially in providing a new library and herbarium to provide research facilities for students in particular. I am glad to see that work taking place. The gardens constitute one of our valuable heritages.

Coming back to Dublin in general, the Bull Island is a very valuable amenity and one of the most important bird sanctuaries in the country and it is near the heart of our capital city. An Foras Forbartha produced a report on it very recently pointing out that 1,000,000 people and 200,000 cars visit the Bull Island annually. Several thousand schoolchildren visit Bull Island in school groups. I am not surprised at this because at any time, winter or summer, you can see children visiting the island and you quite often see these visiting school groups. Now it is silting up and the dunes are disintegrating, and it is said that in 20 years they will be gone. It is a major salt marsh and there have been numerous proposals about its development. The Clontarf end particularly is in jeopardy and people in the city know that very well. The harbour authority are making various proposals and people are quite suspicious that some works might be undertaken which will not be in the best interests of the maintenance of Bull Island. Indeed, in the future there could even be pressure for housing and industrial sites on the part of that land which is silting up. Therefore, there is need to do some development work there. This island does have the criteria necessary for declaring it a national park because it has both the reserves and the recreational aspects. Therefore, I propose to the Minister that he consider establishing the Bull island as a national park and maintaining it as a national trust. This is very important and it would give tremendous confidence, contrary to what was said earlier by Deputy Mitchell. He said that he really would want the Phoenix Park to go the opposite way. I believe the people would have great trust in the Board of Works if they were to understake the establishment of a national park on the Bull Island. I would like the Minister to consider and study that aspect in the interests of the people of Dublin and of the country as a whole.

I am very glad to see that the Office of Public Works are planning to develop Howth harbour and I look forward very much to this long-awaited development. This is a major fishing port and an amenity for the people of Dublin. It provides a challenge in that there is the task of combining both the amenity and the traditional fishing aspects. I am glad to note fishing in that port is increasing, and that new boats are being introduced. This is a very healthy situation. I welcome the plans of the Office of Public Works who are in consultation with the people locally and I trust that a worth-while development for Howth harbour will come from these consultations and negotiations.

Deputies have stressed the need for redevelopment in Dublin city in a variety of ways. It is worth bearing in mind that at present there are discussions in the EEC about the application of the regional fund to such developments, particularly to non-quota aids which may be applied to inner city areas. This trend is arising because of the problems in some of the major capital cities throughout Europe and the tremendous delays in dealing with them. It is important that they be investigated to find what benefits the Department could get from such a change in the regional fund.

I would like to congratulate the Minister of State for this Estimate. He has achieved an increase in the work which will be undertaken by his office and his work will lead to additional job creation, a factor we are inclined to overlook. Automatically increased works will lead to increased jobs, not only in the office itself but also in the private sector. This will also lead to tremendous improvements in our environment and in our national buildings and monuments.

I should like to devote my remarks to the growing work load in the Office of Public Works and the tremendous stresses and requests being put on that office by other rapidly growing Departments. I will cite two Departments requiring a lot of attention. I would like to develop this discussion along the lines that the OPW can be asked unfairly to cope with tremendous developments. This is something that might need questioning under their original brief or specification. It has got to the situation where there may be a need for some rethinking. I would particularly like to relate some of my remarks to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Shortly after coming into this House the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs announced the Telephone Capital Bill, an expenditure of £350 million over five years. The structures necessary for the spending of these moneys on behalf of that Department will be borne by the OPW. The architectural and drawing office staffs cannot possibly be geared to cope with the influx of this crash programme. I believe that very often four or five stages are required before a development can finally get under way. This may lead to delays and criticism of the OPW which they should not have to absorb. If a new telephone exchange is needed it goes from the engineering section to administration in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, from there to administration in the OPW who in turn pass it on to the architectural section, who may not have the personnel and then it goes to outside professional private organisations.

The OPW should look at these large crash capital programmes and resist getting involved if they go over a specific figure, probably something in the region of £2.5 million or £3 million. If a Government Department wish to develop buildings in this financial area they should set up their own division or go direct to outside bodies. That sort of pressure on the OPW will lead to smaller and very desirable developments being put into the background. There is no way the drawing office can cope with the type of programme the Department of Posts and Telegraphs presently have in mind. Everybody concerned expects the Office of Public Works to cope with this requirement. I would, therefore, ask the Minister to look at this. He should not be asked by these Departments to comply with these very urgently needed crash programmes.

It is refreshing to see that the Minister, through the Office of Public Works, intends spending so much on Garda stations and improvements in that area. We are aware of the increase in the numbers in the force and of the desirability of that increase. It is also very desirable that improved facilities should be provided. I am pleased to see that, following representations. some money is to be spent on the Garda station in Clondalkin, in my constituency.

I note that the Department of Agriculture will spend £666,000 through the Office of Public Works. I am aware that the Agricultural Institute have an architectural division and that some of the developments the Office of Public Works are being asked to provide come under this research area.

Debate adjourned.
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