Private Members' Business. Youth Policy: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Kenny on Tuesday, 23 May 1978:

That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government either to immediately publish its own comprehensive Youth Policy or to adopt thePolicy for Youth and Sport published by the then Government in May 1977, and to ensure that aid to voluntary youth organisations is such that their programmes can be maintained and expanded.

Debate resumed on the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"endorses the Government's policy on Youth and Sport and acknowledges the progress that has been made to date.

—(Minister of State at the Department of Education).

Mr. Horgan

When I moved the adjournment last evening I was taking up the point the Minister of State raised about the relationship between youth work and the educational system. The Minister of State asked whether or not we should be expecting youth services in the Department of Education's youth work to plug the gaps, as it were, left by the educational system and he said he thought not. This is a difficult area, because youth is very largely the responsibility of the Minister for Education. I would certainly agree with the Minister of State that using youth service grants and structures to make good the deficiencies in another part of our public service is a very wasteful way of using public money. But we cannot ignore the fact that there are deficiencies in other parts of our public service and in the educational service as well. I was referring to the fact that we now have, courtesy of the EEC, special pre-employment courses in some schools. When you consider that some 80 per cent of our second level schools are going on to employment in any case—hopefully to employment rather than on the dole— it seems extraordinary that one should have to put down something separate and special and call it a pre-employment course because that is what school itself should be. It should be many other things as well, but it should certainly be a pre-employment course for our young people who are going on to take their places in the labour market.

I would like to make one clarification of something I said last night, something which evoked vigorous disagreement on the far side of the House. I referred to the amount of money made available for the youth services this year and where the major increases are. I specifically suggested that the major increases were only in the area of sport and this the Minister of State disagreed with. I now have a reply from the Minister for Education to a parliamentary question outlining the total amount of money available for the Government youth programme for 1978 and the main components of that programme. The answer given today indicates that in addition to the substantially increased sports grant, there is a £300,000 temporary grant scheme for youth employment and £106,000 for grants to vocational education on the specifically youth side. This is no doubt what the Minister of State had in mind when he shook his head in disagreement at my suggestion that the larger part of the increase was going into sport.

Now what I had in mind, and what I want to be more specific about, was the relative standstill in relation to grants to some youth organisations, a relative standstill which has caused these organisations no little hardship. I think the House will be glad to hear from the Minister of State whether or not, for example, one particular youth worker who is paid out of the Comhairle le Leas Óige grant-in-aid and employed in a parish in his own constituency will have his job saved for the next 12 months, because the latest I heard was that his job cannot be guaranteed since An Chomhairle have not got enough money to maintain all their existing programmes at the level at which they would like to maintain them.

The question this motion asks is what is the Government offering by way of a youth policy. The official publication of Fianna Fáil, Iris Fhianna Fáil, published before the election, contained several pages on the second national Fianna Fáil youth conference and a full page article by Pearse Wyse, TD, headlined: “This Government Has No Youth Policy. We have and here it is”. In this article I would draw attention in particular to the section headlined: “Training”. There are just two brief paragraphs.

I propose the setting up of a structure for the training of full-time and voluntary youth leaders.

There is a need for a regional development plan and the employment of regional development officers to examine and recommend the priorities of youth work, to take account of regional advantages, or the lack of them, as the case may be.

It is fair now to ask the Minister of State where is this structure that was promised? Where is the regional development Fund? Where are the regional development offices? To the best of my knowledge we have not got them. All we have is an advisory committee.

It is all very well to have a policy. Words on paper are a policy, but a policy is only a policy the people will respect if it is implemented. We have been waiting now for almost a year for the implementation of this policy and all we have got is an advisory committee. There is a very grave danger that if the work of this advisory committee is unduly prolonged the youth policy will have missed the boat by the time it reports.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Mr. Tunney)

May I explain that we have set aside a sum of £5,000 this year and a sum of £20,000 for training next year? Provision has been made.

Mr. Horgan

I did not know we would be discussing next year's Estimates at this point, but I am interested in what the Minister has to say about money. I wonder what one can do with £5,000 in terms of setting up a structure for the training of full-time voluntary youth leaders in the current financial year. It is good to have a subhead sometimes so that one can add to it at certain points, but in terms of setting up the structure that might be needed it is a drop in the ocean.

Mr. Tunney

It is a beginning. It was not there before. The Deputy conveniently forgets what I said was provided for next year.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Horgan.

Mr. Horgan

The fundamental point I am trying to raise is that there is a grave danger that money will be wasted unless the structures are appropriate. In their pre-election statement they see a need for structures, and we do not yet have the structures that will consolidate and co-ordinate, they will see to it that the money is not wasted and that it is put to the best use. What I fear is that, if the Government miss the boat on youth policy there will be another boat and the people who will be on it will be mostly young.

Mr. Briscoe

I am glad that Deputy Horgan corrected for the record his statement last night in relation to the allocation of moneys from the Department of Education under the aegis of the Minister of State, Deputy Tunney. I have sought information on the allocation of this money, and I find that the overall increase in moneys allocated to sporting and recreational activities amounts to 48 per cent, which is a very sizeable sum of money.

I would like to take some of the figures mooted here last night. Deputy Kenny's contribution in particular was concerned about the allocation of money. In 1974 his predecessor in office did not allocate anything. He might have asked his predecessor about the extraordinary allocation for the nine-month transition period that year when with a 20 per cent increase it would have been reasonable to expect approximately £190,000 for the nine months April to December 1974. Instead £23,000 was allocated. The books were fixed for that nine-month year, and this meant that at least £170,000 which could have helped to develop youth and sport was withdrawn never to be recovered. I challenge the next speaker to refute what I have stated here in connection with the amounts of money allocated for the financial year 1974. It is worth adding that the grant to youth and sport in 1975 stood at £390,000. It increased by 2 per cent in 1976 to £400,000 and in 1977 there was no increase at all and it remained at £400,000. In 1978 this Government have given a 10 per cent increase to that grant. I was appalled by some of the statements. I would like to deal with Deputy Horgan's while he is here.

Mr. Horgan

I do not intend to leave.

Mr. Briscoe

He commented first of all on the lack of attendance here in the Chamber.

Mr. Horgan

I did not comment on the lack of attendance in the Chamber. I commented on the lack of attendance in the Public Gallery.

Mr. Briscoe

And also in the Public Gallery. If he checks the record he will see that he referred to both.

Mr. Horgan

I referred to their ages, not their numbers.

Mr. Briscoe

I would like Deputy Horgan to know that there will not be a youth organisation of note in this country who will not read the entire debate taking place this evening. All the major youth organisations will be reading this debate. One thing I have always been conscious of is the tremendous interest that youth organisations take in anything mentioned in this House regarding youth in the little enough time that it gets here. I would like to say for clarification to Deputy Kenny now that, when I told him earlier today about the £3 million, I stated clearly that I was not speaking for the Government or for Fianna Fáil. I was speaking in a personal capacity. I was not a spokesman for youth in the community. I suggested that £3 million a year should be allocated to this. I maintain that view and I urge my Government to allocate that amount of money.

However, all speakers will agree that money alone does not solve all the problems we are facing. Indeed, the youth organisations are not demanding money alone. There have to be certain back-ups. In various debates we were requesting a policy document from the last Government. I quote from the Official Report of 28 May 1975, Volume 281, column 1142, where I said, speaking on the youth development policy motion which was moved by us:

It was to come out before Christmas 1973, then the summer 1974, then Christmas 1974, and we are still waiting for it.

We then jump to 10 February 1977, Volume 296, column 1317:

3. Mr. Wyse asked the Minister for Education the reasons for delay in announcing the Government's comprehensive youth policy: and if it will be announced during this Dáil session.

Mr. P. Barry: The main reason for the delay in the publication and implementation of a youth and sports policy was the prevailing financial situation. To publish a policy without a reasonable prospect of its implementation would create only frustration. The position of the document is now being reviewed.

Deputy P. Barry was then Minister for Education.

We know what happened. Within a few months the election was called and suddenly what purported to be a policy was produced. I do not intend to be harsh, but from listening to Deputy Kenny last night one would get the impression that every youth organisation welcomed this with open arms. That is not so. There were certain things in it which would form the framework of a policy, but there were also certain things which we would not agree with. For example, I quote from the document A Policy for Youth and Sport, page 43, under the heading “Major Proposals”:

(i) That additional funds be provided by the Department of Education to Vocational Education Committees for assistance to youth and sport.

(ii) That provision be made as an experimental measure for the employment of Community Animateurs in four areas outside Dublin who will motivate people to set up organisations for youth, sport and recreation.

The suggestion was that teachers would be allocated by the VECs to look after sports and recreational facilities rather than that youth organisations themselves would put up full-time youth leaders.

This is vastly different from what the youth organisations would have wanted. They would not have wanted a situation in which teachers would be allocated by the vocational educational committees. It was advocated that a new sports council be established. That has been done. It was advocated also that the vocational education committees implement the policy decisions regarding youth and sport, in other words, that that responsibility be handed over completely, that it would be taken away from the Department of Education. That would not be the right way to proceed. It is for a Government to assume responsibility for any youth policy they may implement and not to allocate the money to the various local authorities for them to spend.

Deputy Kenny referred also to the lack of amenities but I would remind him that the Coalition removed the £600,000 amenity grant and then announced an increase that year in the physical education section of the Department of Education. They tried to maintain there was a big increase in the vote for that year when in fact there was a net loss of about £300,000.

There was much fuss about the resignations from Comhairle le Leas Óige. Successive Fianna Fáil Governments allowed that body to give grants to the county council and to Dún Laoghaire Borough and it was conditional that the money spent came from the allocation. However, the Coalition were not prepared to continue that policy and on one occasion I found it necessary to produce a statutory document in the House in order to demonstrate to the then Minister that the council were not allowed legally to continue the situation that had existed. Finally the Minister agreed with me that there was some question of a legal problem. It transpired that the situation during the term of office of the Coalition was that if Comhairle le Leas Óige allocated £600,000 to County Dublin in one year they would receive an allocation of only £140,000 in the following year because their grant would be based on the amount that was spent within the city of Dublin; and if in the following year again they gave £40,000 to the county they would receive an allocation of only £100,000 the year after. That is the sort of conduct in which the last administration engaged.

The Minister referred last night to the quarter parliamentary secretary, the man who was in charge of physical education and recreation in the Department and whose section was comprised only of a couple of part-timers. Not only has the section controlled now by the Minister of State doubled in terms of staff, but they have been responsible for a great input into youth and recreation facilities generally.

We all share a common commitment to youth. I do not think young people would enjoy being made political footballs of. My commitment to youth goes back to 1972 because since then I have been involved actively in youth work. Deputy Horgan did not agree last night with what was said about the voting patterns of young people.

Mr. Horgan

The parents and not the young people were codded.

Mr. Briscoe

What happened in the last election happened not simply by way of a vote for Fianna Fáil but because there was a complete rejection of the then Government. The Coalition's neglect in the area of youth was tragic. This year a sum of £919,000 is being made available for expenditure on youth activities. This is irrespective of sports. The grant-in-aid in respect of youth organisations is £278,000. Comhairle le Leas Óige will receive £200,000 in this regard and there is a temporary grant scheme of £300,000 in respect of youth employment. It is important to recall that last year the National Youth Council did a tremendous job in finding work for people up to 21 years old. I should hope that each youth organisation will avail of this scheme. It is important that young people are occupied. In the case of Stewart's Hospital the project continued into December. This year there is a grant to vocational education committees of £106,000 for such projects.

We are engaged already in in-service training. Deputy Barry has said that policies are not everything, that action is what counts, but we have allocated £35,000 for what is known as in-service training—youth exchanges and youth encounter projects. In addition the youth will benefit from the £462,000 that is available by way of grants to supporting organisations, sports councils, sports exchanges and major schemes. This is a sizeable increase and is a measure of the intent within one year of what the Government are doing in this area. An excellent council has been set up by the Minister under District Justice Sullivan. All the people concerned are known for their association with sporting and recreational facilities. I was delighted to note that the principal person concerned with the provision of amenities in Dublin city is an excellent official, but the Rules of the House prevent me from naming him.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is no rule against naming somebody in a case like that.

Mr. Briscoe

I am referring to Mr. Liam Clare, a man for whom I have the utmost respect. He is the kind of person we need on such committees. I regret that Deputy Bruton is not here to contribute to the debate as he was the man charged with responsibility in this area during the term of office of the last Government. It is understandable that Deputy Wyse, who is Minister of State in another area, cannot be here in this capacity, but surely Deputy Bruton could have been here.

Mr. Kenny

He has a clinic.

Mr. Briscoe

I saw him here a few moments ago for the vote. It is interesting that there is an overemphasis on the votes of young people and that there is the belief that by bribing them they will vote for one at election time. That is not so. In this connection there is an interesting anecdote regarding something that occurred some years ago in Dublin Corporation when it was proposed that sixpence in the rate be struck for youth work and recreational facilities. The proposal was agreed unanimously and a couple of years later when I proposed that the grant be doubled there was again unanimous agreement. However, the chairman of that committee—not a member of my own party—at the next meeting took to task one member of the council who had gone to the newspapers and taken credit for what I proposed. I told him not to worry because the councillor who proposed the original amount being struck in the rate lost his seat in the local election. No one should think that there are votes in youth work. It involved dedication, concern and interest.

Deputy Kenny and myself were present at the launching of the National Community Games and we heard the Minister's statement. We saw there real value for money. The Minister has given a 40 per cent increase in their allocation this year. They were very pleased, and I hope it will continue to grow each year. The Minister deserves some credit for this. The community games involve both north and south, bringing together young people in a sporting atmosphere. This is something which we all laud.

Criticism should be constructive. I believe that all the criticism which I levelled at the previous Government was constructive and based on my own knowledge of the scene. I believe that, given the right structures and framework, which is all that the various youth organisations are looking for, we will succeed.

The Minister has started very well. He is not merely interested in producing a document for the immediate gratification of certain people. I do not know how much went into the Coalition document. It was supposed to have been leaked to the press a year early. Perhaps they are waiting for a general election or perhaps, as the Minister of the day said, there was no money to implement it. Reading through it, I do not know that it would have cost very much to implement.

Mr. Horgan

Did the Deputy read it in The Education Times by any chance?

Mr. Briscoe

I think the Deputy had a vested interest in The Education Times. I remember giving him an article on youth work. I do not know if he recalls it.

Mr. Kenny

There was another leak since then.

Mr. Briscoe

The Minister reflects all of us in his commitment to nurturing the vital forces in Irish society, those who are committed to the development of our young people. They will not find him or his administration lacking in response to their needs. I say that confidently. I am satisfied that we as a Government have the imagination and the resources and, with the co-operation of voluntary organisations, parents and other volunteers, we will succeed. The manifesto is very succinct, precise and deliberate. We said we would do certain things. We have already commenced in a very laudable way and we will continue our good work. We believe in action, not words.

When we get the interim document in four months' time from the O'Sullivan Committee, who are working very hard and devoting whole days in certain instances to their deliberations, we will have something which will be welcomed by the youth organisations. It is important to stress that youth is impatient, youth always will be impatient. At the end of four years I will be very happy to compare our record with that of the Coalition. The time of reckoning comes at elections, and I have no doubt that youth organisations will see the commitment of Fianna Fáil to youth and sporting activities and to the provision of recreation centres and the Minister and the Government will have their applause.

Last night we heard a reference to the lounge bar society. It was Deputy O'Leary who used the term and it was one of the first occasions on which I could agree with what he said. This is a situation from which we are trying to get away. We want something more for our young people. One suggestion is that the post-primary schools should be provided with recreational facilities. It is important to realise that it was the policy of the previous Government not to have gynmasia and sports complexes attached to these schools. It is time for this Government to look at this again. I am confident that the Minister will push this matter and that provision will be made for gymnasia and other facilities for school and afterschool leisure activity.

When allocating money one should know exactly how it is to be spent. Taxpayers' money should not be spent wildly. The Minister, on assuming office did the right thing in inviting an input from various organisations. At that time these organisations were fairly frustrated because they had been dangled to and fro for four-and-a-half years. They probably felt that their case would be put on the long finger again. I think they now realise that this is not an attempt to put anything on the long finger. The Minister wants to know their thinking. He appreciates their dedication and involvement and the knowledge they have about what they are doing.

I remember going to a youth club some time ago and they were very disenchanted with one of the major youth organisations because they felt that it had become very bureaucratic and out of touch with the people. I wrote to the general secretary of that organisation telling him that this was the feeling. If they are not careful youth organisations can get out of touch with the people on the ground. Everyone associated with youth organisations, particularly at bureaucratic level, should be involved in some club or organisation where young people are active and should know what their thinking is. Thinking changes all the time.

I look forward to the day when we will have full-time youth workers in every major area. This is a tremendously important facet of youth policy. If all of us were given the same task we would not carry it out identically; we would have our own priorities. My priority would be to send into an area three full-time youth workers, one to look after youth clubs, one to look after unattached youth who will not join clubs, and one who would be in charge of administration. Much of the time of youth workers can be taken up by administration. Perhaps the Minister would bear this suggestion in mind. These youth workers would go into an area of about 10,000 people, spend about two or three years there building up leadership and then moving to another area. When youth leaders are too long in the same area they become dulled by the monotony and difficulty of their task and it is important that they should move from one area to another and train youth leaders in other communities. This is something which is very close to my heart.

I want to tell the House how impressed I am with the Minister of State's performance in this area. The youth organisations are also very impressed by him. He has not been holding 19 clinics a month. I do not want to get nasty, and if I could I would like to delete that from the record. The Minister of State goes out and meets the people in the youth organisations. His whole attention is riveted to the very big task before him.

I believe the last Government did not appreciate the importance of this. If we go after the youth as politicians looking for their votes and bribing them with this, that and the other, they will lose respect for political institutions and we will bring ourselves into disrepute. We should be putting our heads together and making constructive suggestions for a youth policy, constantly adding to it and improving it. We should learn from other people's experience, but we should rely particularly on experience gained in our own environment. That is very important. It is good to see how clubs in other countries operate, but we have more voluntary workers per head of population than any other country in the world. Where the professional worker takes over—and youth organisations recognise this—there can be a very dangerous situation. When the voluntary worker says "He is getting paid for it, why should I not be paid?" that is the end of the youth organisations. By its nature it must be voluntary. I hope that train of thought will be acknowledged by members of the Opposition.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 24 May 1978

Private Members' Business. Youth Policy: Motion (Resumed).

Tá

Níl

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 May 1978