: Does the House wish to discuss all the Justice Estimates together—Office of the Minister for Justice, Garda Síochána, Prisons, Courts, Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, Charitable Donations and Bequests? The Minister will now move Vote 23 and the others later.
Vote 23: Office of the Minister for Justice .
: I move:
That a sum not exceeding £3,099,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December 1978, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services administered by that Office, and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of historical documents, etc.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose, as has been the practice in previous years, to treat the six Votes for which I am responsible as one group so that there may be a general discussion. The total Estimate for all the Votes for which I am responsible is £88,799,000 made up as follows: Vote 23, Office of the Minister for Justice, £3,099,000, Vote 24, Garda Síochána, £70,592,000, Vote 25, Prisons, £9,518,000, Vote 26, Courts, £3,408,000, Vote 27, Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, £2,113,000 and Vote 28, Charitable Donations and Bequests £69,000. This compares with the total Estimate for these six Votes of £77,022,000 in 1977 made up as follows: Office of the Minister for Justice, £2,639,000, Garda Síochána, £62,031,000, Prisons, £7,738,000, Courts, £2,905,000, Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, £1,667,000, and Charitable Donations and Bequests, £42,000. The total provision for the present year is therefore £11,777,000 more than the corresponding figure for last year.
The Vote for the Office of the Minister for Justice caters for the staff and the service of the Department's headquarters and shows an increase of £460,000. This increase is accounted for mainly by a substantial increase in the provision for criminal legal aid, increases in staff, increased salaries, wages and allowances consequent on the application of the national wage agreement, increase in the provision for compensation for personal injuries criminally inflicted and increases in travelling and subsistence allowances.
As Minister for Justice I have responsibility for a great variety of social legislation, adoption, the whole area of family law which raises the problem of deserted wives, their rights against their husbands and rights to the family home, annulments and guardianship of children and also the question of rent control, ground rents, landlord and tenant law, censorship of publications and films. There are other areas with a high legal content for which I have responsibility such as the Land Registry, the Public Record Office, charity commissioners and the operation of the courts themselves. It could be said that these activities also have a high social content.
: I am sure the Chair is tired of hearing Opposition spokesmen referring to the unseemly haste with which these Estimates are being pushed through. I want to put on record that in the few minutes allowed to me I have no chance of covering this very wide area. These Estimates deal with the question of security. Here I have to question the commitment of this administration to provide proper security for our citizens both in the area of what I would call ordinary crime and the area of armed robberies which could be classified as extraordinary crimes.
Prior to the last election we heard a great deal from this Minister and his party about their commitment in that area. High sounding sentiments were expressed suggesting that once in power support would be given and steps would be taken to ensure that, to use their own words, "crime becomes unprofitable and where not prevented it is speedily detected". In the context of the spate of armed robberies we have had and the huge sums stolen from the Minister's backyard in recent weeks, this commitment takes on the appearance of a sick joke.
I would like to relate this point to the actual details of the Estimates because there was a specific commitment that whatever technical equipment, manpower or overtime was necessary, it would be provided to deal with the increase in the crime rate. To combat modern criminals it is necessary to have modern technology and equipment available to the Garda. That point seemed to have been recognised by Fianna Fáil before they came into power but I wonder has it been recognised since they came into power.
In the Garda Síochána Vote, under the heading "Equipment" the amount being voted is £987,000 as opposed to last year's figure of £985,000, an increase of £2,000 which in real terms, taking inflation into account, is a very considerable reduction. Does this indicate a commitment to provide the necessary technical equipment to enable our force to combat modern crime? Without having the opportunity of going into this in any great detail, this seems to indicate a total lack of commitment. There is a need for an expenditure of funds to provide whatever equipment is necessary. Why is it not being provided? Why is that figure, in real terms, being considerably reduced?
In the same area the question of overtime arises. Recent comments from Garda spokesmen indicate that there has been a very severe cutback in overtime. Again, if we look at the figures we find that the estimated amount for overtime is only marginally greater than that for last year. My suspicion would be that a very large part of that Estimate has already been spent in the current year and that for the remainder of the year this trend of cut-back will continue and those promises —that there would be ample overtime for them under a Fianna Fáil administration—probably not made in writing but implied to the members of the force, will not be kept.
The Question then arises as to whether there is a serious commitment of the part of the present administration to combating crime, doing more than talking about it and providing the necessary funds to fight it. I have to question seriously the Minister's commitment in that area, taking into account the recent record. We find that already this year far more has been stolen by way of armed robberies than during the whole of last year.
The other aspect to which I wish to refer is the Minister's commitment regarding the improvement of facilities at the Land Registry. This is related also to the ground rents issue. I do not propose to re-hash that issue but I am interested in hearing why there is not provision for more staff to deal with the problem in the Land Registry, other than those provided for in the Estimate. The increase in the number being provided for between 1977 and 1978 is from 330 to 361, an increase of 31. In this connection there arises two big questions. There is the question of the existing arrears which, the Minister is well aware, can run into many months. Everyone who must deal with the Land Registry has complaints in this regard. The efforts made to reduce the arrears do not seem to be very satisfactory. In saying this I am not casting any aspersion on the staff who are most co-operative but whose numbers are inadequate. Their accommodation is not adequate either. Apart from the ordinary work of the Land Registry the Minister indicated that there would be a substantial increase in the number of personnel to deal with the ground rents legislation. So far as I can remember this increase was to be of the order of from 60 to 70 people. Bearing in mind the commitment to deal with arrears and also the commitment to recruit additional staff to deal with the ground rents legislation, how are these commitments to be reconciled with an estimated increase of 31 in the Land Registry?
In his short opening statement the Minister refers to his responsibility for various items of social legislation. I am glad that he has reminded himself about this because for the past 12 months I have been wondering whether we would see any positive reference in this area. During the year there have been references to many items being under consideration, being examined and so on but one must question the basis of the positive commitments that were made prior to the last election and one must ask whether these commitments were genuine. In some areas there were serious and specific commitments while in other areas the commitments were serious and general. The record to date shows that the Government have not honoured either the general or the specific commitment. It is clear that on any of these issues the Government are vaccilating, kicking to touch. I assure the Minister that from this side of the House we will be insisting during the coming 12 months that the serious reforms that are necessary in so many areas of the law will be dealt with on a positive basis and that concrete proposals will be produced so that no more will be put off or pushed aside by suggestions that so many of these items are being considered. I can give the Minister a short shopping list of what is involved.
: We must not discuss legislation on an Estimate.
: I am merely responding to the Minister's reference to his responsibility for social change.
: But we must not discuss commitments in respect of legislation.
: I shall relate what I have to say to the Estimate and shall give the Minister a "shopping list" of the various heads. The Minister referred to criminal legal aid. There is a commitment to extend and improve the legal aid system in criminal cases but this commitment has not been honoured. There is a commitment, too, in relation to civil legal aid. It is significant to note that the amount estimated in the current year for civil legal aid is £1,000. Is that an indication of an improvement in civil legal aid this year? The answer is obvious. In addition there are such items as the new tribunals in relation to family law, the informal consumer tribunals, reform of the children's Act, removal of anachronisms in relation to women's law, the age of majority and our adoption laws. We had reference to the latter today and we shall have it again in 12 months' time. To complete the "shopping list" there are such questions as the legitimacy laws, the married laws, reform of our prisons and so on. In respect of each of those the Minister may expect to hear from us again. We guarantee to continue to remind him of his responsibility in these areas.
: I should like the Minister to tell us what is the situation regarding school attendance and to let us know where his responsibilities begin and end in this area. My information is that there are many areas in which children from ten onwards are not attending school.
The other question I wish to put to the Minister relates to the selling of cider and wine to young people who have not reached the age at which they would normally be served with drink. My reason for asking the question is that to my knowledge these beverages are being sold to young people in areas in my constituency and that this situation is the cause of much trouble. For example, in one school in the area damage to the extent of £22,000 has been caused during the past year by cider-drinking teenagers. The situation got so much out of hand that 84 parents working on a rota basis assumed responsibility for protecting the school each evening until after midnight. There seems to be no point in reporting incidents of vandalism to the Garda because they will merely ask what they can do. This is a shocking situation.
The other matter to which I wish to draw the Minister's attention is that itinerants in the County Dublin area are looting wholesale. They have been reported so often to local gardaí that people no longer consider worth while the effort of reporting such incidents. What is involved is looting on a big scale. I suspect that this situation is associated closely with roadside trading because the itinerants have outlets for the goods they steal. Every second house in the district in which I live —and I live about 12 miles from the city centre—has been looted more than once. I have been a victim on two occasions recently. On each occasion the goods taken were to the value of a few hundred pounds. That represented a substantial loss so far as I was concerned. If we are to allow that sort of situation to continue it will seem as if we are giving up the fight.
I am told that in the rapidly developing areas in County Dublin a person can hardly leave his house without it being looted or squatted in. I understand, too, that much of the trouble associated with teenagers which occurs in local dancehalls and other places of amusement is due to teenagers being able to buy quite freely inferior cider and wine.
: I should like briefly to draw the Minister's attention once more to the anomaly that exists regarding public house licences, a situation that is having an effect in the fast-developing areas of County Dublin where it is not possible to obtain a licence for a premises within a mile of an existing licensed premises. When one considers the development of the three towns in the county and the tremendous increase in population it is hardly necessary to go into detail in order to outline the difficulties involved. I am not by any means one who advocates making available alcohol any more freely because I consider that far too much alcohol is consumed, but I do not think that prohibiting a licence within a mile of an existing one is helping the situation. The situation becomes much worse because there are larger public houses particularly in the three new towns I have spoken about. There is a greater distance for people to travel. They are not encouraged to walk for their nightly drink or weekly drink but are encouraged to take out their cars. We have a Bill later on tonight which might be a more appropriate time to deal with the matter. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to this great anomaly which exists in the licensing laws, particularly in relation to County Dublin.
I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the deplorable state of district courthouses. It is about time that his Department took responsibility for them. It is deplorable to ask district justices, members of the legal profession and gardaí as well as the people summoned to attend them, to go into those courthouses and stay in them for any length of time. There is one district courthouse in my constituency where it is not possible to get everybody interested in a particular case into it never mind those waiting to be called. They have to wait outside sometimes in very inclement weather. The situation is not helped by the Minister's Department not having responsibility for district courthouses. I would like him to discuss this matter with his colleague, the Minister for the Environment, to see that those courthouses are kept in a proper state of repair. Courthouses for far too long have been the responsibility of local authorities. I have no doubt if they were the responsibility of the Department of Justice they would be improved.
Many people are worried about the Minister's attitude to security. He gave the impression recently that he is pretty happy with the situation. I do not think that is correct but that is the feedback I am getting from my constituents. We know there is a great increase in the number of gardaí and that foot patrols are more evident in the streets. This is due mainly to the efforts of his predecessor but no doubt the Minister claims his share of the credit for it. Despite this fact the amount of crime has risen. People wonder why we have an increase in armed robberies. The Minister's attitude to the efforts recently of some Members on this side of the House to have a certain debate take place in the House has given the impression that he is happy with the situation. He did not have the courtesy to come down into the Chamber, despite the fact that he was in the lobby when the debate was taking place, to answer the points made from this side of the House.
: Who were the points being made to?
: I am afraid they were being made to the Chair. The time is moving on very rapidly.
: I know that the Minister will have an opportunity of dealing with it in a few minutes. There is an impression that he is happy with the situation. Many people are unhappy with the increase in armed robberies and with the apparent ease with which they are being carried out. People are wondering if the people responsible for such armed robberies have friends at the Cabinet table. That is a very serious thing to say.
: It is only the Deputy who could manage to say it.
: I think that allegation should not be made. I suggest that it be withdrawn. We did not have anything like that all day.
: If you let me deal with it——
: It is an allegation that Ministers have friends in certain places. It should be withdrawn.
: I was not referring to Ministers' friends. I was referring to Ministers being friends of certain people.
: If the Deputy will withdraw the allegation we will get on in an orderly way.
: If you were listening to me I did not make the allegation. I merely said that this was what had been said to me by constituents and others. As it is put to me it is the duty of a backbench Deputy to bring it to this Chamber.
: No Deputy should repeat serious allegations in the Chamber. I think the Deputy understands that very well. No matter where he may have heard them or where they originated the allegations should be withdrawn.
: I was merely stating what had been said to me. I am giving the opportunity to the Minister or his colleagues to reply to it. I am being fair in doing this. I could say it outside the Chamber where the Minister might or might not hear it but would not have the same opportunity of replying to it. I am telling him in the Chamber that I have got this from many people and I am giving him an opportunity of dealing with the matter.
: Did they name any particular Minister?
: No, just friends at the Cabinet table.
: The Cabinet was named. The Chair has to try to be fair to everybody. The allegation should be withdrawn. I ask the Deputy to withdraw it. I do not want to take up the time of the House and I want to be fair to everybody.
: I have not made the allegation.
: I know. If the Deputy is withdrawing it that is all right.
: The Deputy is too sly because he put it the way he did.
(Interruptions.)
: Would the Deputy withdraw the allegation at this stage? I am asking the Deputy to withdraw it.
: If you permit me to deal with it——
: I am asking the Deputy to withdraw the allegation that there were friends in the Cabinet who were covering up for robbers outside the House. That was the way it appeared to me. I am asking the Deputy to withdraw that allegation.
: That is not what I said.
: That is what I heard the Deputy say. Will the Deputy please withdraw it? I do not want to argue with anybody. The time is going by. Will the Deputy please withdraw the allegation?
: In so far as you got that impression I withdraw it.
: Will we get away from it now, please?
: I cannot withdraw or deny what has been said by me. I am merely repeating here what was said to me by many constituents and many people who are not constituents.
: The Chair would like to point out that to come in here and to allege that something was said by constituents and thereby make a serious charge against anybody or any group of people in the House will not carry. The Chair could not allow it.
: I was merely expressing a widespread opinion.
: Would the Deputy get away from that point?
: There is concern with the cutback in Garda overtime. I would ask the Minister to deal with this matter urgently. The fact that newspaper correspondents are not writing about this problem is no indication that people are not concerned with it. These crimes are still taking place despite the increase in the number of gardaí. I would ask the Minister to give us an undertaking to restore Garda overtime.
: I will deal first with the few responsible questions of the Opposition on the Estimate. In regard to Deputy Clinton's question on school attendance and whether attention is being given to it at present, no complaints have been received in regard to this matter, but I am prepared to accept the suggestion that I should consult with the Minister for Education to see if he has received any complaints. If he has received any well-founded complaints I will do something about them.
: Should it have to come through complaints?
: The point I am making is that I have not been made aware of any neglect in this area. If there has been neglect in this area, I am quite prepared to do something about it. I accept that teenage drinking is a problem and people have mentioned to me that it is a serious problem in our society. In recent weeks a number of prosecutions have been initiated against those who have been selling cider to young people.
: Is it illegal to sell cider?
: It is. With regard to widespread looting by itinerants in County Dublin, I am prepared to take this matter up with the Garda Síochána to see how best it can be combated. One point made by Deputy McMahon which has a certain degree of validity relates to publichouse licences. There is a problem in this regard and I am prepared to examine the matter to see what can be done about it.
: Would the Minister consider setting up a commission?
: I will come to Deputy O'Keeffe's points in a few minutes.
: Deputy O'Keeffe is making a constructive suggestion.
: If it is, it will be the first one he has made this evening.
: The Minister is concluding.
: Deputy O'Keeffe had the floor and he should have used his time more constructively. Deputy McMahon referred to the condition of district courthouses. It appears that a number of local authorities are not doing all they should be doing in regard to the proper maintenance of some district courthouses. This problem has not arisen recently but is one that has been with us for a while. I recently received co-operation from the Dublin authorities in relation to a request for more space which was urgently needed in Kilmainham and Rathfarnham.
Deputy O'Keeffe's concern with the haste in pushing through Estimates rings very false. If both Opposition and Government Whips were present they would probably agree that more time was given to Estimates this year than in any year of the Coalition Government.
: Does the Minister agree with pushing through Estimates in half an hour?
: The fact is that more time has been given to Estimates this year than in any of the four years of Coalition Government.
: I should like to point out to both sides of the House that we have 13 minutes left for 30 Estimates.
: With regard to the allegations made by Deputies O'Keeffe and McMahon that there were severe cutbacks in overtime, I can only say that they are talking through their hats. If they are interested in being constructive and responsible, as Deputy O'Keeffe should be, they should check their facts before making statements which are a mile off the mark.
There is not and never has been any such thing as instant legislation. Any legislation that was done in haste was not good legislation. If Deputy O'Keeffe wants to check on that he need only ask the senior members of his party. If the Deputy thinks that legislation should be produced overnight in relation to matters which are the subject of study of bodies like the Law Reform Commission and if he thinks that they are not giving their best on behalf of the community in regard to serious problems then Deputy O'Keeffe is being grossly unfair to people who are working voluntarily on behalf of the Government.
: I am blaming the Minister and his Government.
: Many of the areas in which legislation is required were referred to these bodies by the previous Government. A little knowledge is an extremely dangerous thing. The Deputy was loud in his condemnation of the fact that provision of only £1,000 was made in the Estimate for civil legal aid. I am not going to educate the Deputy, but he should ask for advice on the purpose of a token Estimate and then he would not be going off at half cock.
: Is the Minister telling us that we will have civil legal aid before the end of the year?
: I am telling the Deputy to seek advice from some member of his party in regard to token Estimates.
: If the Minister gives a commitment I will accept it, but the Minister has no intention of giving a commitment.
: Deputies O'Keeffe and McMahon questioned the commitment of the Government to security. There is no reason for anybody to question our commitment to security. Not alone did we make a commitment but we are honouring it. We can defend ourselves in regard to commitments whereas those who were here before us up to 5 July last cannot do so.
: The Minister should not be going back too far.
: I beg the Deputy's pardon. I will go back as far as I like. If I cannot talk about something that happened 12 months ago then I have no business being here. In regard to ordinary crime, up to 5 July last the Garda were not allowed to do their job, Since I came into office on 5 July a determined effort has been made to combat the increase in crime which was rampant at the time. Approximately 600 extra gardaí have been put on the streets in the 11½ months since then, with 400 or 500 more to come. That is something Deputies should remember. I ask Deputies O'Keeffe and McMahon to ask themselves—Deputy McMahon should know; Deputy O'Keeffe was not here and I would excuse him— how many gardaí came out of the training centre in the year prior to 5 July 1977? Then let us talk about commitments to combat crime.
I want to deal with a most serious allegation by Deputy McMahon. He was not manly enough to say it in his own name but he adopted the "duirt bean liom go ndúirt bean leí" attitude, that he was told that in the case of the recent robbery that took place at Barna, County Limerick, it was rumoured that these people had friends in the Cabinet. I think that is a highly——
: I was not referring to a particular robbery.
: My interpretation of what the Deputy said was that the armed bank robbers have friends in the Cabinet or in the Government. That is an outrageous, slanderous, incorrect and most serious allegation, highly irresponsible and typical of the Deputy who made it. It is without foundation and I am glad that eventually, despite many slippery turns on the Deputy's part, he withdrew it. It was disgraceful that the Deputy should try that sort of tactic.
: I was giving the opportunity——
: It is completely untrue and he knows it to be untrue. He is trying to be mischievous and cause trouble. He will not succeed. He says many people are worried about the Minister's attitude towards security being one of complacency. I should like to assure the Deputy—it is not necessary in the case of the public because they know it to be untrue—that there is no question of complacency on my part as Minister for Justice or on the part of the Government in dealing with criminals, whether ordinary criminals or subversives. Let that be clearly understood. If the Deputy wants to play politics with it he may do so but he may expect that he will be dealt with as he should be dealt with.
Bank robberies did not start happening since 5 July last. In 1975 we had 153 bank robberies; in 1976, 185 bank robberies; in 1977, 298 bank robberies and in 1978 up to 26 June, 106 bank robberies. If the Deputy wishes to throw stones I could throw them also——
: Has the Minister given figures for armed robberies? I spoke about armed robberies, not bank robberies.
: I am talking about bank robberies as a whole. I am now categorically stating that the number of armed robberies in 1975 was 153; in 1976, 185 and up to 26 June this year, 106—which I would hope nobody approves of on either side of the House. I trust we would all be committed to see that everything that can be done will be done to prevent these things happening.
: Was not the Minister's message a year ago that there was one answer to armed robberies and that was increased overtime? Now that he is in office it is cut back?
: Deputy Kelly is wrong in that.
: The Minister spoke last February 12 months and the whole of the speech was based on the relevance of overtime to the stamping out of armed robberies.
: Again, I say Deputy Kelly is wrong in that. I did say that there was very great need— as there was—for a much stronger Garda presence on the streets to combat ordinary crime and, at the time of a certain train robbery, I did say that there was a great deal of protection of large consignments of money because—it was not admitted but it was known to be true—at the time of a certain train robbery there was no protection whatever, armed or unarmed, because the Minister for Justice of the day had given a direction four weeks earlier that the cut-backs on overtime were to be observed irrespective of whether or not security was involved.
: The Minister when in Opposition talked non-stop on the question of overtime. It was the only solution he had to offer, more and more overtime——
: That is untrue. I suggested that as far as ordinary crime was concerned there was great need for more gardaí on the streets. I certainly said that and I say again that there is further need at present, despite the much stronger Garda presence on the streets since 5 July last, for more gardaí to combat crime.
: I do not want to annoy the Minister but my distinct recollection and the recollection of everybody else on this side of the House is the Minister's simple solution for the problem when in Opposition was more and more overtime.
: That is untrue. The Deputy has not his facts. Let him please get them and come back at a proper time and I shall debate the matter with him. If the Deputy were interested and had something worth while to offer he could have come in here at 6.15 as we did and he would have had time to contribute to the debate irrespective of whether he had his facts. I am glad he did not do so because he has not facts. If the Deputy wishes to raise the matter at Question Time and wishes to put down questions we can talk about it.
: No better man to do it.
: I shall not stop him. I am completely disappointed with all of what Deputy O'Keeffe had to say. He was destructive in the extreme and irresponsible. I thank Deputy Clinton for an honest and sensible approach although I have often crossed swords with him and I am sure I shall do so again.
: Would the Minister explain one thing? He said that the previous administration prevented the gardaí from doing their duty——
: That is right—by not making money available to them.
: That was not explained.
: It was. I shall explain: by not making moneys available to them at the time or by not increasing the overall strength of the Garda Síochána. That is how they did it.
: They were increased by 1,000.
: Is the Deputy joking?
: A decision to increase by——
: The Deputy's Government made so many decisions that were never implemented that it was a joke. I shall give the facts for the last year that Government were in office. Can the Deputy tell me how many new gardaí came out of Templemore?
: Was there a decision taken or not?
: But you did nothing about it. There was a decision made for about 18 months to take on 500 gardaí but you did nothing about it except waffle.
(Interruptions.)
: Order.
: Could the Minister give the number of gardaí in 1973?
: Put down a question and you will get it.
: The Chair wishes to announce that it is now 7 p.m. and in accordance with the resolution of the Dáil earlier today I am forthwith putting successively the questions necessary to bring the proceedings on the remaining Estimates and Supplementary Estimates to a conclusion.
Vote put and agreed to.