Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 27 Jun 1978

Vol. 307 No. 12

Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Order, 1978: Motion .

Minister for Labour (Mr. G. Fitzgerald)

: I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following Order in draft:

Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Order, 1978

a copy of which Order in draft was laid before Dáil Éireann on 15 June, 1978.

Deputies will recall that on 26 October 1976, when the Second Stage of the Worker Participation Bill was being moved, the House was told it was not possible at that time to determine in advance the sizes of the reconstituted State boards in question. The view was that it would not be appropriate at that stage to prescribe board sizes in the Bill as it could limit the discretion of the Government Ministers concerned. It was felt to be desirable and appropriate that the Ministers should have discretion in determining the size of the boards to take account of the appointments to the boards of members elected by employees. The solution adopted was to allow the new board sizes to be prescribed at a later stage by affirmative order.

For that purpose, section 23 of the Act empowers the Minister for Labour, after consultation with the Minister for Finance and other appropriate Ministers, to prescribe by order in relation to each of the State bodies designated in the Act the number of members or directors of the reconstituted boards, including the number of employees to be appointed following an election by the workforce. Where the total number is a multiple of three, elected representatives must constitute one third. Otherwise the proportion of elected representatives must be rounded upwards to the number which is next above one third.

Under the terms of section 4 (4) of the Act, a draft of any order to be made under section 23 requires the prior approval of the Oireachtas by way of affirmative resolution of each House. The intention behind that provision is to ensure that there would be no diminution of the authority or responsibility of the Oireachtas in determining the appropriate size of the State boards concerned.

The present order, which has been laid before the House in draft, is designed to comply with the requirements of section 23 of the Act in so far as five of the seven State bodies are concerned—Bord na Móna, British and Irish Steam Packet Company Limited, Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta, Electricity Supply Board and Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta. The effect of the proposed order is that, as from the date on which it is made, the size of the boards of the five bodies will be fixed at 12 members, of which four—that is to say, one third of the total—will be elected by the workers for appointment under the Act. As the maximum size of the existing boards is seven, except in the case of the sugar company where it is ten, the overall increase in board sizes will be five of which four will be reserved for members elected by the employees. The increase in the sugar company will be two.

I have not included Aer Lingus Teoranta or Córas Iompair Éireann in the draft order because consultations in these bodies have not reached a stage where decisions on board sizes would be appropriate. When consultations have concluded I shall be pleased to bring forward the relative draft orders before the House to reconstitute the boards of these two bodies.

I have already made regulations for the conduct of elections under the Act which were laid before the House on 1 March 1978, in accordance with section 4 (3). This draft order represents the next step towards bringing the Act into operation since it specifies the number of board seats which may be contested in elections.

I can assure the House that I am very anxious to proceed with the implementation of the Act. In that connection it is relevant to mention that there have been consultations with all the interests concerned about the election procedures and about board sizes. I would, therefore, recommend that the House approve the draft order.

Mr. J. Ryan

: I am very concerned about the delay in introducing this order affirming a Bill which was passed 15 months ago, and introduced by my colleague, Deputy M. O'Leary, the responsible Minister in the previous Government. I appreciate the need for consultation before its introduction, but 15 months seems unnecessarily long, and because of this I suspect the sincerity of the Minister in the matter.

The position of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions on this development, particularly on the size of the board, was conveyed to the Minister and his colleagues last November. I hope this delay is not an indication of a lukewarm approach to worker participation by the Minister and, perhaps, his colleagues. I sincerely regret that the Minister has not accepted the recommendation of ICTU that boards should consist of 15 members, thereby ensuring five elected directors of each State enterprise. I am convinced that the arguments of congress are sound and reasonable, and furthermore that the Minister supports their recommendations. I am appealing to him to make further efforts to overcome the opposition of his colleagues, because the success of this development depends on a full and genuine contribution by all members of the Government.

A 15-member board would, under the provisions of the Act, include five elected members. In my view it is essential for the successful operation of the system of worker-directors in State enterprises that there should be not fewer than five elected directors. Most of the enterprises concerned cover a variety of operations, have a wide geographical spread, employ different categories of staff and have a relatively large number of trade unions. These factors must influence the desirable number of elected directors.

In the case of CIE, for example, there are the clearly distinct road passenger service, road freight, rail operations and workshops. Bord na Móna have several major peat production and briquette locations. The Irish Sugar Company have four sugar factories apart from food-processing operations. In the ESB there are the separate operations of electricity generation, transmission and distribution, as well as large technical and administrative areas.

In each enterprise there are distinct occupational categories, that is, general operatives, craft workers, technical and professional staff, and administrative workers. Most significant perhaps, there are many trade unions in each of the enterprises. It is clearly desirable that the major union interests, whether large individual unions or groups of unions, should be satisfied that there is a fair prospect of their being represented among the elected directors. Otherwise their commitment may be less whole-hearted and there could well be resentment and frustration that would be damaging to the prospects of the success of worker participation as envisaged under the Act. Even a cursory examination of the union structure in the enterprises indicates the impossibility of reconciling the need for broad representation of employee-union interests with fewer than five elected directors.

For all these, and indeed other reasons, I consider it essential that there should be five elected directors on each of the boards. Otherwise there is a grave risk of jeopardising the successful implementation—in the spirit as well as the letter—of worker participation as envisaged in the Act. I recognise that the arguments we have set out are stronger in the case of some of the seven enterprises than they are in others. The benefits of uniformity of board size in the seven enterprises will, however, be obvious and need not be elaborated here.

I regret that CIE and Aer Lingus are not included in the order. I understand and accept that further consultations are necessary in the case of these two enterprises and I sincerely hope the Minister will arrange to have a separate order made in time for elections to be held very early in 1979.

Deputy Michael O'Leary, during his term of office as Minister for Labour, was completely committed to this worth-while idea of worker participation and was able to convince his colleagues in Cabinet of the necessity for the legislation introduced in 1976 under which this order had been introduced today. I hope the Minister and his colleagues are equally committed to this idea.

Finally I hope this order today is only the bridgehead for advancing this idea of worker participation into the private sector. I look forward to greater activity in this field in the coming session. Notwithstanding the defects in the order, particularly the fact that it does not provide for five elected directors, my party will not oppose it.

Minister for Labour (Mr. G. Fitzgerald)

: At this stage I have been in office for almost a year only. Deputy Ryan and the House must be aware that extensive consultations were needed on the election procedures in the State boards. Deputy Ryan referred to the delay. I would have wished to introduce an order covering the seven companies but, because further consultations have to take place with CIE and Aer Lingus, this was not possible. I was most anxious to introduce a comprehensive order and I thought it better to cover as many boards as possible rather than having piecemeal orders covering one or two at a time.

Account was taken of the views of congress on the size of State boards, as account was taken of other interests and other views. Twelve-member boards seem to be acceptable and on balance seem to be desirable in this our first exercise in worker participation. I am anxious that this first venture should be successful.

Deputy Ryan mentioned the multiunion situation. I am fully aware of that. I am sure he will agree that even five would not have solved that problem because of the widespread number of unions.

Mr. J. Ryan

: It would be better than four.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

: That hardly strengthens the Deputy's argument when he is talking about some companies with 20 or 30 unions involved. This order gives an opportunity to those five companies to go ahead and finalise the arrangements for elections. I hope all five but at least three, will be having their elections this year. As soon as consultations have been held with regard to the other two companies, I will be only too pleased to bring another order before the House. On my part there will be absolutely no delay in introducing that order as as soon as the consultations are concluded.

Question put and agreed to.