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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Oct 1978

Vol. 308 No. 7

European Monetary System: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following moon:
That Dáil Éireann takes note of the Conclusions of the Presidency presented by the Taoiseach to the Dáil on 18 July 1978, following the meeting of the European Council in Bremen and, in particular, the conclusions on closer monetary co-operation.
—(The Taoiseach.)

Last evening I dealt with a number of aspects that were relevant to the debate and some that were not. Of the issues which were relevant, those that are necessarily of a rather technical nature—such as the respective merits of a parity grid versus a basket approach to the actual mechanisms for calculation intervention limits and so on—were touched upon.

I went on then to deal with the basis for the sum of £650 million which the Irish Government have suggested as being the appropriate level of aid during our transitional period over the next few years. I think I dealt adequately with the reasons that other figures which have been mentioned in this House and elsewhere are not particularly appropriate.

I went on to deal also in general terms with the question of the likely value of the Irish £ in the event that we found ourselves joining the European Monetary System while sterling remained outside. I illustrated the reasons why there should be no simple or clearcut approach to that question. I spelled out some of the reasons why one would continue to expect changes in exchange rates from time to time even if inflation were to disappear completely and we know, of course, that the presence of inflation, especially the presence of widely differing inflation rates, can cause changes in exchange rate currencies.

I then went on to deal with the question of whether or not the proposed European Monetary System would have a deflationary impact on the Irish economy. That was a point on which I spent a little time. I thought it right to try to tease it out because I wanted to draw an important distinction between deflation in the precise sense of that term—that is, developments which would lead to a reduction in the rate of inflation—and to contrast that type of deflationary impact, which would be a good impact in our view, with the other sense in which the deflationary impact is frequently used, namely, the sense in which it would have some adverse effect on our growth, output and productivity. Indeed, here I cannot help digressing for a moment to comment that, given the rather slipshod way in which these terms are bandied about, the man in the street must be frequently confused because he is told inflation is a bad thing and in the next breath he is told deflation is a bad thing.

But reflation is sometimes a good thing.

Yes, but how does one get to a position of reflation if one is not permitted to either inflate or deflate? I was trying to draw a careful distinction between inflation and deflation, applying the latter to measures which would slow down the rate of inflation pricewise in the economy, regarding that as a very beneficial effect, and, if that correct deflationary result can be brought about by the introduction of the European Monetary System, then that will be a good thing. Of course, if the impact of the EMS were to come in the wrong form it would have the other type of what is loosely described as a deflationary effect, namely, an adverse impact on our rate of growth and output. I spelled out the reasons why I thought we could avoid any such harmful effect on our growth rate, and this was one of the reasons why we had sought a particular level of financial aid, because such aid would enable us to sustain and, indeed, accelerate our growth and output and productivity. We envisaged any such aid being used for investment purposes, and the inflow of such funds would, of course, also ensure we would not have to worry about any balance of payments problems. We would have the ability to finance the balance of payments deficits bound to occur during a period of rapid growth and development. It was important, therefore, as I said, to discuss this question of the possible deflationary impact in the European Monetary System and to say that part of the necessary conditions for ensuring a beneficial impact was that we should be enabled to press ahead with a rapid programme of investment and productivity growth and should not have to worry unduly about possible balance of payments constraints. Those would be external requirements.

I then emphasised that these external conditions would have to be accompanied by the appropriate domestic behaviour. In this context, the appropriate domestic behaviour means we must avoid producing any excessive cost and price increases within our own economy. If we fail to do this, if we allow ourselves to produce excessive cost and price increases, then obviously the emergence of the EMS and the tighter monetary disciplines that would accompany it would produce the harmful results we seek to avoid and would, indeed, result in some adverse impact on our growth rate. If, on the other hand, we can exercise the appropriate degree of discipline—I know some speakers on the other side object to the word "discipline" but it is nonetheless the appropriate word—in the conduct of our own economic affairs, then we can ensure that our behaviour does enable us to sustain a rapid growth in real output and real living standards. If we behave in an undisciplined or inappropriate way we simply impose a fresh burden of inflation, slow growth and get no improvement in living standards.

In that context, it is important to emphasise that in our view it would be totally unrealistic to expect our EEC partners to help us during the early years of the European Monetary System, whether by financial aid or other measures, if we were to display an unwillingness to help ourselves by the appropriate management of our own affairs. Perhaps I could digress for a moment here to deal with a question raised by Deputy Bruton. He asked were there any conditions attaching to any loans raised by the Government. Not that I am aware of, and there has been no suggestion that any conditions would attach to any aid we are seeking.

The Minister for Finance said in his introductory statement that conditions as to economic policy might be imposed in the medium term loan system for support of the currency.

Might be. I am making the same point. I said it would be unrealistic to expect our EEC partners to help us if we were not to display a willingness to help ourselves by the appropriate management of our own affairs. Specifically, to answer the Deputy's question, I said no such conditions were attached.

Not so far, but there may be conditions in the future.

I am making the point that I would be the first to recognise the unreasonableness of our, on the one hand, seeking help from outsiders and, on the other hand, saying to those outsiders they must allow us to behave in whatever manner we thought fit, however inappropriate.

Will the conditions be published?

Oh, the Deputy is worried about the Coalition's performance. The conditions attaching to the loan the Coalition got were not published, and it took quite a degree of detective work to establish the fact that conditions had been imposed.

That is hardly relevant on this motion. I would ask Members to leave questions until the Minister has concluded.

Will any conditions be publicised? I want an assurance on that point.

I would anticipate that any agreements freely entered into would be disclosed.

Deputy Bruton also asked if we would be required to reveal our budgetary proposals, and so forth, in advance. I do not see why it would be necessary to supply information to anyone outside the country, information one would not supply inside the country. So long as we continue with our existing budgetary arrangements I cannot see that there would ever be any suggestion of prior disclosure of budgetary matters.

Or prior discussion?

That is an impossible question to answer. One discusses likely courses of action in many forums, whether here or elsewhere outside the House, with various bodies and so on. One frequently has discussions on the nature of economic policy, budgetary policy, monetary policy and so on.

Can we have an assurance that there will be no more discussion outside the country as to budgetary policy than there will be within this House or within the country?

I have no intention of trying to anticipate future arrangements at which we might arrive, whether for domestic reasons or as part of some new set of arrangements which might emerge in the European context. I was emphasising the importance of applying appropriate policies and ensuring that we operate the proper domestic arrangements if we are to derive the maximum benefit from participation in the European Monetary System. Those were the essential points in that area.

Then there was the question of what would happen if we were to join and the UK were to remain out. There were a number of points on this heading, one of which I did not deal with yesterday and I will do so, briefly, now. The question was raised by Deputy Barry. He emphasised the importance of the position in Northern Ireland and this was also referred to by many other speakers. It was said that if there were to be any change in parity between the British £ and the Irish £, this would introduce a new situation in the Northern part of the country. If Britain were to be outside the system and we were to be a member, this could give rise to exchange control arrangements and so on. While I would fully agree with speakers who cast their remarks and questions in the form that we should not do anything that would hinder progress towards Irish unity, I do not see this as in any sense implying that we cannot go ahead and participate in the EMS even if Britain should decide to remain outside.

If the implied argument is that we must always maintain the status quo in Northern Ireland, then by implication one is trying to say that there is no choice of exchange rate before the Irish Government and that we must always automatically lock ourselves into sterling so as to maintain the existing circumstances in the North. I would reject that approach. One could equally envisage that perhaps the fastest way to promote Irish unity is to demonstrate that an independent Irish monetary system is part of a set of economic arrangements which are accompanied by a faster rate of progress in the economic area than would be experienced as part of a sterling system.

That decision, therefore, has to be taken on its merits at the time in the light of the circumstances then prevailing and that is the only sensible course of action for any Irish Government to adopt. They should look at the situation as carefully as possible, assess the merits and demerits of either course of action and, when they come to weigh up the implications for Irish unity, they should choose that course of action which in their view will have the most favourable impact on that objective.

That brings me into the more political arena of the attitudes and stance adopted by many of the speakers on the other side of the House. I had started to deal with what I regarded as a tendency to display an excessive reliance on simply following the British position on these matters. I gave examples yesterday and there is no need to repeat them again. I went on to make the point that, while there are of course areas in which there might be a similarity of interests between Britain and ourselves, it is equally possible that on a number of items there are significant differences between British interests and Irish interests, between their circumstances and ours and between their expectations for the future and ours. Therefore, given those different circumstances, it would be perfectly rational for us to pursue a separate course of action from theirs. Incidentally, I cannot resist making the point that everyone talks about breaking the link with sterling if the situation were to arise in which Ireland would participate in the EMS and the UK would remain outside. Surely the more technically correct description in those circumstances is that Britain would be refusing a link with the Community and that Ireland, in common with the seven other members, would be sharing in a common European system. I would rather look at the matter in that context.

Having noted what I described as the "stage Irish" mentality, which may have been good entertainment, when it came to the actual question of identifying a course of action and deciding which action to take and which policy to pursue, there was an immediate shying away from all these serious matters and instead we had the deferential attitude that we should follow what the British do—if they go to certain meetings, we should do likewise; if they hang back, we should do likewise; if they take an initiative, we should support it. I reject all that approach. I concentrated in my examples yesterday on the Fine Gael speakers in illustrating this. Perhaps I should make it clear that I regard this inadequate approach as extending also to the Labour benches. If I were to summarise the overall approach of the Opposition, I would say that they were trying to pursue a tactic that can best be described as backing every horse in the race in order to back the winner, so as to be able to claim afterwards that they had indeed picked the winner.

The Government did not give us enough explanation.

We are looking for tips.

Regarding the EMS, some speakers said it was one of the most important decisions ever to confront an Irish Government; others said it was not important, just a minor matter.

How are we to know in the absence of quantified information from the Government?

The nature of that issue does not hinge on precise quantified data. Either it is important or it is not. Either the nature of the system is such that it is of substance or it is not. That is not a question which hinges on whether some particular number turns out to be 100 million or 90 million or whether another number turns out to be ten or 20. Let us deal with the important things.

What is important to this House is its effect on Ireland, not its abstract importance in geophysical terms.

That is right. I am making the point that, while some speakers on those benches seemed to think it was important, others seemed to think it was relatively trivial. Some seemed to think it was very important to keep the sterling link, while others seemed to think it was important to break it.

The greatest area of confusion in this attempt to back every horse in the race was in the whole approach to the negotiating position and tactics. Naturally the Opposition wanted to get themselves into the luxurious position of being able to say that, no matter what the Government did, the Government were wrong and they, with their superior wisdom and insight, would have done a far superior job. I dealt with some of the examples where they were claiming this innate superiority for their performance. To crystallise it into one single example, it was the whole question of whether one should reveal the bargaining position early on or conceal it. A number of speakers criticised us for taking too early an initiative: the Taoiseach was too enthusiastic after Bremen and Copenhagen, in contrast to the British who were far more cautious and circumspect. Then we had other speakers criticising us for concealing our position and asking why we were not giving more information and spelling out far more clearly the merits and demerits of various possible outcomes. These are the ultimate extremes I have chosen.

Listening to this debate, I was turning over in my mind how we were supposed to pursue a highly complex bargaining position where we were, as one speaker said, dealing with ruthless interests that would stop at nothing, and how we were to do this if we were also being required, sometimes by the same speakers, to come into the House and spell out fully and clearly all the possible courses of action open to us, the likely consequences of various solutions and how precisely we had settled on particular components in our approach. That cannot add up to a consistent approach. Either it is sensible when one is in a negotiating position to keep most of one's cards close to one's chest or it is not.

Does the Minister deliberately conceal information from the House as part of his policy?

Deputy Bruton should not make the charge that information is deliberately concealed. The Minister should be allowed to make his speech without interruption. The Ceann Comhairle and myself said that we would allow a few brief questions at the end of the Minister's speech in view of the importance of the issue but we cannot have them all through the speech.

I do not mind dealing with the Deputy's question.

I know the Minister enjoys it but it is not in order as far as the House is concerned.

Deputy Bruton's statement is a classic example of what I mean by wanting to back every horse in the race. If I give the information we will be described as incredibly naïve. It will be said that we were only 15 months in Government, we did not know how to bargain or deal with these wily, crafty Europeans. But if I do not give all the information I stand condemned of failing to inform the House.

Why did the Minister ever go into Government at all?

I am simply making a point and I can assure the Deputy I have not the slightest intention of spelling out what I regard as my position in these matters.

The Minister is not giving the information either.

That is right. The Deputy can so describe it if he wishes. I will debate the merits of it afterwards. Now that the Deputy has interrupted me let me pick up one remark that he made—I was going to let it go but the Deputy may as well have it now—the Deputy was listing a number of things that he felt ought to be supplied by way of information. He eventually produced the really hilarious suggestion of insisting on an item that would be impossible to supply. The Deputy told the House at one stage that not only should the Government spell out the various implications of how aid could be used and so forth and made clear his own preferences on the manner in which financial aid might be supplied but he said that the Government should also indicate the opportunity cost, the alternative ways in which this money would be used and the results that would follow if it were left to individuals, farmers, and so on to dispose of it. That is impossible for any Government. The Deputy is asking the Government to look into the hearts and minds of the people who might or might not get their hands on various parts of this sum and also establish how much each of them is or is not likely to use. We are asked to establish the nature of the investments they might or might not make, the consequences that would follow from those investments which they might or might not make at a level undisclosed and to inform the Deputy and the House as to the alternative results that would result from that course of action. That was a marvellous example of the brilliant flights of fancy which came from the Opposition benches. But this did not surprise me because, as I am trying to illustrate, in order to be able at some distant date in the future to claim how wise and all-seeing they were, the Opposition speakers went for the standard tactic of, as I have described it, trying to back every horse in the race so that they can always claim that they backed a winner.

In closing I cannot resist taking up more specifically one or two of the attitudes flowing from the Labour Party benches. If some of the Fine Gael speakers were taking up positions with which I could not agree they were at least expressing themselves. The overriding impression that I got from the Labour Party speeches was that they were not for or against anything. They did not appear to know where they stood, where they had come from, where they were going. Having dissipated their energies in trying to be all things to all men they now have nothing to offer other than a kind of foggy inertia, a misty kind of emptiness that enables them to express no positive attitude for or against anything. The only specific feeling or thread running through their remarks that I could identify was that whatever else they were they certainly were not part of a group which could be described as socialist in the sense of subscribing to such noble ideals as a national brotherhood of man. To hear the way they were telling it at times one would think that most of the people one meets once one gets outside the shores of Ireland are to be at the least viewed with the greatest suspicion or that one should flee from them in peril of losing one's life and one's virtue. In case they think that means that they can say they were expressing the correct sentiments of Irish nationalism and so on in adopting this kind of negative approach to the outside world let me hasten to disabuse them on that.

Again I want to pick a remark which at first struck me as incongruous and inappropriate. The Labour Party Leader, Deputy Cluskey, said that Fianna Fáil had a romantic approach to this subject; we had this romantic idea of breaking the link with sterling. At first I was inclined to smile and think that, whatever else one might say about this debate on a highly technical subject, one would hardly describe it as romantic. But on reflection he was right. We do stand convicted as romantics. It points to the contrast between the Labour Party and ourselves. By now in their posturing and their meandering and attempting to be all things to all men they have simply dissipated all their theories, their policies, their ideas and they have nothing better to offer than a foggy and confused meandering whereas to be romantic implies having some sort of conviction, some sort of ardour, some sort of a vision for the future. It implies having a belief in the Irish people, a commitment to shaping our own affairs, to exercising the power that has been conferred on an independent Government, to adopting a truly republican stance and saying "It is Government of the people for the people".

Whether it results in mistakes or in the right conclusions the crucial thing is for the Government of the day, whoever they are, to have this romantic approach, to believe in things; above all to believe that there is a way in which Ireland can play its part among the nations of the earth and make a contribution. We do not have to suffer from a massive national inferiority complex; we do not have to spend our time tied to mother England's apron strings rather than run the risk of developing any monetary or other policies of our own. That ultimately is the difference between the two sides of the House. Right or wrong we believe in what we are doing. We believe that there is the possibility of making progress in this European arena. If we were to listen to the other side of the House we should run scared for cover.

All that one leading speaker, Deputy Barry, could suggest was that the only reason we were interested in entering the EMS was because we were searching for alibis. We are seeking no such thing. We do not need alibis. What we are searching for is opportunities and the way to approach this European Monetary System is to view it as producing opportunities for further progress in the European arena. There is no guarantee that any particular opportunity will be converted into a worth-while reality. That depends on the behaviour of the people concerned. We know we are only a small part of the European Community but it depends in part on our behaviour just as it depends on the behaviour of those other member states in the Community. Surely the correct approach for any Irish Government which believes in itself and believes in its right to speak for the people is that it should be willing to go out and to adopt a positive stance towards bringing about a better Europe in a better world. That is the approach we have adopted and we make no apology for it. We will continue to pursue it and we will defend our record.

The Chair said that it would allow a few brief questions when the Minister had concluded.

There are three points that I want to put to the Minister for clarification. In fact, there would have been four but this morning he reverted to what he had said about deflation and in doing so he clarified what was perhaps a bit confused in some of the reports of his speech this morning on this issue. I was glad he clarified the point that the terms on which we shall enter, as negotiated by his Government, will not have adverse effects on the rate of growth of output. Some of the reporting this morning may have confused that issue but I do not think I have to pursue the point any further.

However, I wish to ask the Minister one point arising out of the discussion this morning. First, he spoke about conditions applying to aid. I was not clear whether aid meant the £650 million grant being sought. I was not sure if he was talking of the possibility of future loans. Perhaps the Minister would clarify this question of conditions in relation to the £650 million?

I made it clear that no conditions had been attached to any financial transactions in the Community up to now, that nobody had suggested yet any specific conditions. In reply to the further questions from Deputy Bruton when he was trying to elicit what would be our future position, I was adopting what I regarded as the sensible approach of saying that I refused to indicate what would happen in the future because one does not know what a Government would agree to in certain circumstances. In the general European context one has to say one could envisage circumstances where individual member states, for the greater good of the Community, would accept some agreement on what we might call the performance criteria.

I do not want to press that further because the Minister must be left to negotiate and bargain in that area and probably it is not a matter that can helpfully be developed further on the floor of the House. I merely wanted to clarify what he was talking about when he made the statement.

The second question I wish to put arises out of what he said yesterday about the rationale of the £650 million. While I tried to listen carefully, what came across to me—and I do not think it can have been the Minister's intention—was that the figure was arrived at because we could not use any more than that. I do not think the Minister could have meant that and perhaps he will clarify what he was trying to get across at that point as regards the reason for the choice of this figure. It was not clear to me, and perhaps to others, in the debate.

I said that we could look at two characteristics of this level of aid. One was what scale of aid would be relevant in the short term as helping with our balance of payments financing. The second was that if one was seeking aid that had a performance condition attached to it written in by ourselves, namely, that we would only seek aid for investment purposes—aid that would enable us to press ahead more rapidly with investment in various areas of our economy—that clearly there was some limit to the extent to which the economy could absorb additional investment spending. I went on to make the point that while it would be nice to have other forms of more general aid, budget transfers or financial transfers which arise in the MacDougall Report context, I did not regard those as being realistic in present circumstances because we were not discussing the kind of framework in which those types of transfers were likely to arise.

I am dissatisfied with the reply but I am glad that I am clear in my own mind about this matter. It is surprising that the Government could not envisage, even after five years, finding anything useful to do with more than £130 million a year.

I did not say that.

That is what the Minister seemed to be saying. The last question I wish to put relates to the basic issue of monetary union. Yesterday the Minister did not seem to have listened to or to have taken account of the point I was making here and I should like him to clarify his thinking on this. The point I put to him was the following and I shall quote what I said:

Only to the extent that the Minister proposes to enter without accepting a commitment to maintain parity of currency with others and with the idea of devaluing from time to time could this be described as other than a monetary union or its effects on us be different from monetary union. I presume it is not his intention to pursue such a policy which would, apart from its effect upon our relationships with our partners, involve continuing reimportation of inflation.

The Minister tried to obscure the issue here and I should like him to state clearly where he stands. Are we going in with the intention of maintaining parity? If that is the case, in what way is this different in its effect from monetary union and in what way will it require any less aid than a monetary union? Is the Minister going in on the basis that we do not have to bother about the commitment because we can devalue whenever we need, that therefore there is no monetary union involved and we do not need £650 million? The Minister should answer that question. He has not done so up to now. He has tried to obscure the issue by his references to what I said about monetary union. I might add that some Fianna Fáil speakers in the debate were quite clear that this is monetary union. I would refer the Minister to column 782 of the Official Report where a Fianna Fáil speaker specifically said, "Now is the right time to have the opportunity of joining the monetary union", and also, "it is opportune that the monetary union discussions are taking place...". Some people on the Minister's side think that what is involved is monetary union. I did not allege it was but I put the point that unless it is proposed to devalue from time to time its effects are the same and the aid required is the same as identified and measured by the Minister in that report.

If we are to quote speakers——

That is completely out of order.

It is not. If the Deputy can do it I can do it.

The Minister should give the column reference.

I do not have the column reference yet.

I have. I quoted what Deputy Lawlor said.

Yesterday we listened to Deputy Ryan who allegedly has some experience in this area and he was very careful to make the point that he envisaged that exchange rates would continue to change in the proposed EMS. I have made clear all along that the proposed EMS is not a monetary union and my reasons stem from the nature of the information we have from the Bremen discussions. The outline of the scheme that was released after those discussions makes clear that while it is hoped that exchange rate changes would be few in number and limited in extent, nonetheless they could still continue to occur. I gave reasons, even if the whole Community succeeds in wiping out inflation completely, why some such changes in exchange rates could be required from time to time——

"...tends to lead to a depreciation of our currency".

If the Deputy goes back to the four cases I gave he will note I was very even-handed. There were two circumstances in which one could envisage a weakening and two circumstances in which one could envisage a strengthening of the Irish £.

The Minister said one did not apply at all.

The Minister must be allowed to complete his reply. Then I shall put the motion. We are getting into a completely new debate.

This is a very tricky area. There is no way in which I can deliver myself of remarks that could be then interpreted outside this House as giving an indication of the likely value of the Irish £ or the nature of the exchange rate policy which the Irish Government will pursue in the coming months and years. If the Deputy wants to call that concealing information from the House let him go ahead and I shall not mind in the slightest. I have no intention of uttering a word on those specific areas. In order to deal with the general nature of the problem, within the proposed EMS it appears to envisage occasional changes in exchange rates and it is clearly not a monetary union. Therefore any attempt to import into the discussion or the necessary conditions for the system characteristics that are appropriate in a monetary union is not relevant or helpful.

Deputy Bruton, a brief question.

I have only two questions.

Put them briefly, please.

When will the White Paper be published? Will the Minister state if it will be published after the Council of Ministers meeting of 20 November so that the information arising out of that meeting can be contained in it?

I am not in a position to give a firm date to the House for the publication of the White Paper. Obviously the publication date must in part depend on the content of the paper. In the light of some of the remarks which I have made both on my own behalf and in reply to questions, the House will recognise that one would say different things after the decision period. Let us assume that the final decisions are taken in Brussels in the first week in December; then the content of any document compiled after the meeting in December would differ from the content of documents compiled before the meeting in December.

Is it specifically in advance of the December meeting?

Sorry, Minister and Deputies, one more brief question, and then I will put the motion to the House.

Deputies are asking questions and before I finish replying they are devouring the questions. Either they want me to reply or they do not. I am trying to give the easiest illustration as to why precisely the content of a White Paper will be influenced in part by the timing of its publication. We have here two matters to resolve, the timing and the content. Even if we are to fix on a date today we are not necessarily producing any noticeable progress because the content of a paper to come out on an agreed date would then be determined in the light of that agreed date. It may be in the interests of all of us to retain some flexibility as to date as well as to content.

Deputy Bruton may ask a final question, we will take a question from Deputy O'Connell and then I will put the motion. This is a most unusual concession on the part of the Chair given only in view of the importance of the motion.

It is an unusual matter to have before the House. Am I to take it from what the Minister has just said that he contemplates the possibility of not publishing the White Paper until after the Government have made explicit commitments at a Council of Ministers meeting as to their final position? If so, could he indicate what value, if any, such a White Paper would have in terms of assisting in the decision-making process if a decision is already taken? Is there any likelihood of any change in exchange control between this country and Germany as a result of our joining the EMS?

I will take the second question first. I said that I had no intention of going into any references to the nature of the policy we will pursue over the coming months in respect of sterling and so forth. It is equally essential for me to avoid making any specific statements about what consequential changes in monetary arrangements might arise between Ireland and any other member state of the Community. If such changes are required as a result of the precise form of the system—if such a system is agreed—and if we agree to join, then such consequential changes will be made. For the reasons already given I do not see that it would be in any way helpful to indulge in speculation in these matters at this time.

The other point was about the time of the publication and whether it is being published before the final decisions are taken, that is, let us assume, before 4 or 5 December. I have tried to illustrate my view on that matter. I am not committing myself and it is not for me to commit the Government at this juncture to the publication on any date. I was simply suggesting to the House that it might well be that the Opposition would prefer different documents and different dates. Let us leave ourselves some flexibility on that.

Will the Minister publish something before the decision is made?

The Taoiseach is happy to honour his undertakings in full. There can be a document published.

While recognising the dilemma of the Government about supplying us with up-to-date information, the publication of the White Paper after the decision has been taken on 4 or 5 December would mean having a debate on a fait accompli. There is need for an informed debate but a decision should be made to publish the White Paper and have a debate on it a week preceding the decision-making process on 4 or 5 December. Anything after that would be taking away from the Dáil the powers to have an informed discussion and a decision on it.

It is not as clear cut as that. I can see the case, but the document which we will get before the Brussels summit clearly will be cast in much more general terms than will any document we might get after it. If you are concerned about the sovereignty of the Dáil you could consider as a valid possibility that, although you would not have a White Paper published and debated until after the Brussels summit, if the House so decided it could, before adjourning for the Christmas recess, repudiate or amend any decisions which the Taoiseach on behalf of the Government would have taken.

Taking the Minister's point about different documents published at different stages, perhaps the right answer is to have a document of what can be published in advance of the summit. Certainly after the summit everything that has been agreed must be published.

Question put and agreed to.
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