Arising from the remarks made by Deputy McMahon in that regard also, I can tell the Deputy that consideration of this Bill and reexamination of the Consumer Protection Bill, 1977, involved consideration of even far more issues than those involved in the 54 sections of the Bill before us. For instance, there were some recommendations in the report of the National Consumer Advisory Council which it was decided not to include in the 1977 Bill. All of these had to be reconsidered when we were talking of re-introducing the Bill.
But there is another point and a more important point, and one which is illustrated very well if we compare this Bill with another Industry, Commerce and Energy measure which was before the House recently and which will be before the Second shortly. I refer to the Industrial Development Bill, which is essentially an administrative measure to provide funds for the IDA. That is an essential function of the Oireachtas and one to which we must address ourselves at frequent intervals. A Bill of that nature is relatively easy to prepare compared with the measure before us, which is concerned with the fundamental rights of persons, natural and legal rights as between buyer and seller, between consumer and producer. A measure such as the Sale of Goods Bill is likely to have a much longer life cycle than a measure of the other type to which I have referred.
Since the Bill before us is concerned with people's rights, its drafting required very careful attention. This is reflected in the length of time it has taken to bring the Bill to this Stage. Deputies O'Toole and Desmond expressed a preference for the title "consumer protection" rather than the title I have used. It seemed to me that for Deputy O'Toole perhaps the important word should have been "protection" but other supporters of the "consumer protection" title might hold that the operative word was "consumer". I tried in my speech to spell out the reason for preferring the title "sale of goods and supply of services". To those remarks I would merely like to add a definition of consumer protection as given in one of the reports of the NPC and which was to be found originally in an important work on this subject, namely, the report of the Moloney Commission in Britain in 1962. This definition of consumer protection is given as those measures which contribute directly or indirectly to the consumer's assurance that he will buy goods of suitable quality, appropriate to his purpose and which will give him reasonable use and that if he has a just complaint there will be reasonable redress. On the basis of that definition I submit that consumer protection involves even much more than what is included in this Bill. As I have said before, this measure is not by any means the last measure that this House will be dealing with in terms of consumer protection.
There has been some comment, from Deputy Keating in particular, regarding my use of the phrase "a lawyer's Bill". When I used that phrase I was not suggesting that this Bill was one merely for the benefit of lawyers, although I hope it will make matters easier for lawyers by spelling out many points which might otherwise have to be argued. What I meant was that the Bill was highly technical in the legal sense. The subject matter concerns so many complex legal points and involves necessarily so many technicalities of law that it would not have been practical to produce a Bill that was at one and the same time both meaningful and comprehensive and capable of being expressed in simple terms. I am very gratified by Deputy Desmond's praise regarding the structure and the lay-out of the Bill.
A number of Deputies referred to matters that are envisaged as the subject of separate legislation. These matters included pyramid selling, roadside or casual trading and also so-called monster sales. Deputies will appreciate that behind these matters lie some very difficult legal problems particularly from the point of view of drafting effective legislation to deal with them.
In the context of the Bill, any legislation to control roadside or casual trading, a method incidentally which is of deep and widespread concern all over the country, is intended primarily in the interest of legitimate traders—as was brought out clearly by Deputy Blaney—and not so much as a matter of consumer protection. However, the provisions in the present measure apply to goods bought from casual traders and to that extent should have a restraining influence on the activities of such traders.
I was gratified that so many Deputies in welcoming the Bill acknowledged that, while it was pro-consumer, it was not anti the producer or the distributor who gives good value, plays fair and avoids sharp practice. It will be welcomed by all reputable manufacturers, producers and distributors, as are all consumer protection measures. It makes their lives so much easier and facilitates the honest traders in every case.
As might be expected with a measure such as this, the debate has ranged far beyond the ambit of the Bill. I was gratified, for instance, to hear a number of Deputies stress the importance of a questioning and critical attitude on the part of consumers generally. This is something which I have always stressed any time I have spoken publicly and also in this House. A number of Deputies stressed the need for more and comprehensive methods of consumer education and information. I endorse Deputy Moore's view that the value of this measure, like that of all consumer protection measures, will be lost to some extent if the public at large do not inform themselves of its provisions and make sure to look for their rights when seeking goods and services. I also recognise the importance of what a number of Deputies, particularly Deputy Woods and Deputy Desmond, said about providing detailed consumer information. Unless I am mistaken, this is what Deputy Keating was getting at in his references to his concern about the Bill being too difficult for the ordinary lay person. He said that a major task would arise in acquainting the public generally of what the measures in this Bill and other proposed consumer protection measures would mean to them. As Deputy Woods stated, that is primarily a matter for the new Director of Consumer Affairs. Very much of what Deputy Keating talked about was covered in the Consumer Information Bill, 1978. Where was Deputy Keating when that Bill was being debated in the House? He has a lot of points and comments to make on the lack of control over the advertising associations and advertising generally, but all that was covered in the Consumer Information Bill, 1978.
Deputy Woods and Deputy F. O'Brien raised the question of small claims courts. The desirability in principle of setting up such tribunals is easy to accept. It has, however, been much more difficult up to now to find the right basis on which they might be established. The National Consumer Advisory Council have already studied the matter and in their report to me they saw this court system as being grafted on to the present District Court system. The National Consumer Advisory Council recognise that the implementation of such a recommendation would require detailed study, and I am consulting the Minister for Justice about this.
The small claims schemes which are operated under local authority auspices, on a voluntary basis, in London and Manchester, are sometimes cited in this House and other places as models for small claims schemes in this country. However, I understand that these schemes have not proved as successful as was hoped and that their voluntary nature makes for certain drawbacks. The operation of small claims through the ordinary court system throughout Britain is facilitated by the availability of court registrars, qualified legal personnel whom we do not have in our District Courts. As a greater awareness of consumers' rights develops, and depending on our experience of the operation of the present measures when enacted, it will be my intention to keep under review this question of introducing small claims courts.
Deputy Filgate raised the question of the applicability of the Bill—particularly section 13 dealing with sales of cars—to sales between farmers of secondhand machinery. I appreciate the Deputy's point that farm machinery is now very expensive and that the cost, even in secondhand condition, of many types of farm machines runs to four figures. In so far as good title and freedom from encumbrance are concerned the provisions of the Bill and of the Sale of Goods Act regarding merchantable quality and fitness for purpose apply to such sales only where the machinery is sold by a trader. In other words, these provisions would not be covered in a sale from one farmer to another. The special provision for motor vehicles in section 13 is very much related to the question of the safety of the general public and a farm machine would be subject to these provisions only if it were classifiable as a motor vehicle. The position under the Bill of a farmer buying such equipment directly from another farmer is no different from that of say, a furniture manufacturer who is buying secondhand machinery from another furniture manufacturer.
Deputy O'Toole and Deputy Desmond referred to the possibility of State aid for the consumer movement. In other countries consumer bodies have developed their activities to the point where they have regular and enduring sources of income. The place of Which magazine in the affairs of the consumer movement in England is an example of what I mean. In countries more affluent than ours charitable foundations of industrial origin are to be found which have been a source of funds to the consumer movement. Some State aids for the consumer movement should be available because this would enable the movement to articulate better the voice of the consumer in Ireland. A recommendation on these lines was made by the consumer education committee in their report. I have accepted that report and sent the various suggestions in it to the appropriate Ministers.
Deputy V. Brady and Deputy F. O'Brien referred to the dangers associated with the sale of inferior imported electrical goods and Deputy Blaney today mentioned the same point. Regulations under the Industrial Research and Standards Act, 1961 and the European Communities Act, 1972 provide that electrical equipment may not be leased, sold or imported unless it is safe. These regulations are constantly policed by my Department in conjunction with the IIRS and the Electro-Technical Council of Ireland which is a body set up to promote electrical safety of equipment and installation and to encourage the awareness of electrical safety amongst the general public. In 1978 there were eight successful prosecutions and in 1977 there were eight also. In all instances traders were required to withdraw the unsafe items from sale. In many other cases traders have volunteered to remove items from sale when it was pointed out to them that equipment was unsafe. Now importers are beginning to ask beforehand whether certain equipment would come within the regulations.
Door to door sales was a point raised. Apart from section 47 and section 44 of the Bill dealing especially with the cooling-off period and unsolicited goods, there is an EEC directive under discussion which we will have to apply here when it has been passed by the Commission.
Deputy Lemass urged that there should be some guarantee that the consumer will be able to obtain spare parts for consumer durables for a specified number of years afterwards. This is a matter on which I have great sympathy with the consumer and one to which a great deal of thought was given in the preparation of this Bill and in the preparation of the Consumer Protection Bill, 1977. The National Consumer Advisory Council in recommendation in No. 3 in chapter 2 of their report went some way along this road. It has to be recognised that most leading manufacturers of consumer durables do provide spare parts and a spare parts' service for what must be regarded as a reasonable period in relation to the life of the article and the production period of the model concerned. It would be unreasonable to impose by law a requirement that might cut across the commercial judgment of manufacturers, and it must be recognised that it is on this commercial judgment that the manufacturers' reputation and ability to survive depend. Some product lines have to be discontinued and situations like those mentioned by Deputy Lemass will and can arise. The approach in the Bill in section 12 respects the commercial judgment of the manufacturers and the interplay of competition but it does provide a degree of protection by enabling the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy to make orders requiring that in the appropriate cost representations made by all manufacturers or suppliers that they will provide standard parts for a period of X number of years and this will indeed form part of the contract. In this regard consumers should not overlook the possible long-term advantages of preferring a product of home manufacture because at least if one buys a product that is produced and made here one has some hope of getting the spare parts when and if one needs them for a longer period.
I would like to refer to the first point raised by Deputy Blaney and that is the position of trading stamps. The question of trading stamps is a matter which is subject of separate legislation and I would like to say at this stage that a Bill to control trading stamps is at a very advanced stage in the Department and it would be my hope to introduce it very early in 1979. I do not think at this stage that it would be appropriate to discuss the provisions of that Bill.
I have, I hope, covered the main points which were raised on the Second Stage of the debate. The debate, as one might expect, ranged far beyond the proposals in the Bill. Once again I am very grateful to Deputies on both sides of the House for their contributions. I said on moving the Second Stage of this Bill, the real discussion or the discussion of the measure in earnest will take place on Committee Stage. Therefore, if there are any points which Deputies made in their speeches on Second Stage which I have not covered in my reply I hope these matters can be raised again on Committee Stage when we can have a longer and fuller debate.
