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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 19 Jun 1979

Vol. 315 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - ESB Charges: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to introduce a subsidy for low income families and individuals towards the cost of their ESB charges.

As the House is aware, on 12 June last the Government announced that the price of electricity was to go up by no less than 20 per cent. The Irish Times reported that the increase was approved by the Government on 12 June, a few days after the European and local elections. It has been suggested that the proposed increase from 1 June this year will add about 2 per cent to the cost of living overall. I submit that this increase, together with recent substantial increases in the cost of food, will have a further substantial impact on the annual rate of inflation and will certainly push it well over the double figure for 1978.

It has also been suggested that the increase will add between £1 and £3 per month to the accounts of most ESB consumers. This increase has come at a time when some 40 per cent of ESB subscribers have not paid their bills for several months. It appears that four out of every ten households are substantially in arrears and these arrears amount to a sum in the region of £20 million. The proposition of the Labour Party is that within the range of ESB subscribers as a whole there are families and individuals who have a very low income and who generally have difficulty in paying their ESB bills, even when there is not a postal dispute. This increase, together with the abolition of food subsidies, puts pressure on these people well beyond the amelioration offered by the Government in the recent budget.

Further increases in the price of crude oil are also in the offing and it is expected that these increases will have a further substantial impact on ESB charges in the autumn. If that is so, it strengthens the case that the Government should give some consideration to the introduction of a wider scheme of selective subsidies to well-defined categories of subscribers in the low income group. The Exchequer should endeavour to bear this cost.

This motion is tabled in anticipation of the coming winter. This country has endured an unprecedented period of appalling weather and the prospect is that there will be a critical situation in regard to fuel supplies and fuel costs before this House reconvenes next October. Even now there is a delay of three or four weeks in receiving supplies of coal from the monopoly which controls coal distribution. In addition to all this there is the unprecedented postal dispute.

The people worst hit in this situation are the low income consumers. If the Minister would stroll down to Townsend Street any morning — I would bring him myself tomorrow morning—he would see 500 or 600 people queueing up, even on an extremely warm day such as today. Elderly people, young people and mothers with children have been queueing up on the various morning allotted to them. Several thousand are processed like broiler chickens instead of human beings. They queue in Townsend Street and down a filthy back lane waiting for their cheques. These are the people who must try to allocate from their cheques enough money to meet their ESB bills. They do not get very much, even in these days of alleged affluence. A husband and wife with two children with full benefit get about £30. The last item for payment is the ESB bill, as many public representatives know when supply is cut off.

I know people are cynical about politicians generally, but I am sure the degree of cynicism on the part of consumers was heightened when the announcement of the increase was deliberately withheld until after polling day for the European and Local Elections. Sanction was given and the announcement came a couple of days after the close of the polls for these two elections. If I may chide the Government, that is hardly the mark of a Government, with a secure majority of 20, the largest majority in the history of the State.

We should turn our minds in a responsible way to alleviating, as far as possible, the hardship which will be suffered most in the coming winter by families and individuals with low incomes. Many families directly affected by unemployment, by redundancy, and quite a number also by the post dispute, are on the poverty line. Despite the efforts of the previous administration when they went marginally above the poverty line, largely due to the major efforts of my colleague Deputy Cluskey in the Department of Social Welfare, they have slipped back again and have had no real net improvement in the past 12 months. The inflation rate, now running at 12 or 13 per cent, has well and truly overtaken the increases given in social welfare. It is important to point out to the Minister that in very many instances those increases have not yet been paid due to the postal dispute.

Special consideration should be given to the ESB accounts of those families. I want to draw another distinction. The ESB account tends to be quite different from the differential rent paid by an individual. If a person suffers a period of unemployment his differential rent falls and is adjusted accordingly. It can drop by as much as two-thirds for a person who is suddenly caught by unemployment. By and large the ESB bill is a constant and progressive expenditure having regard to the increases in charges. Little account is taken of the income circumstances of families, even though families with high incomes usually spend more on electricity.

The unemployed person, the redundant person, the deserted wife in our society, single parent families, deserted parents, and deserted children who are living in homes or are fostered out, have not got the benefit of the free electricity scheme or the subsidised scheme. My plea to the Minister is that some consideration should be given to these categories, and our proposition is extremely modest. Consideration should be given to reducing the qualifying age for free electricity. It should be brought down to 65 years. This would not be a terribly costly exercise.

As far as I can gather, at the moment the Exchequer spends about £6 million a year on the free electricity scheme. The current estimate for 1979 is £5.9 million and 132,659 people will benefit. If the qualifying age were reduced to 65 years some additional thousands would be added on to the scheme. I have not got the exact age quota, but the cost would not be excessive. It was and is an excellent scheme. It was introduced in 1967 and has been of progressive benefit to the community down through the years.

As the Minister knows, in our constituency the number of people in their early sixties requiring heat above all, living in flats and rooms with high ceilings and not much heat, is appalling. At the age of 65 or 66 years the prospects of having free electricity at that critical age, when in many cases people are entering into what we now call regrettably old age, would be of considerable value to them. By and large the present electricity allowance is confined rather rigorously to persons receiving old age pensions, blind pensions, invalidity pensions, disabled pensions, and so on, and they have to be living alone, or living with a dependent wife, or an invalid husband, or another invalided person.

The average cost of the subsidy at the moment under the free electricity scheme seems to be about £45 a year for the approximately 132,000 people who qualify. Additional groups and categories should now be added on to the scheme. One could mention groups in our society like deserted wives with children. There are about 3,400 deserted wives with children in our society. If one applied the £45 subsidy to those deserted wives, the total cost would be about £150,000 only, which even in the context of a supplementary budget would be scarcely worth mentioning.

Needless to remark in the case of the 3,400 wives with children, one would probably be paying the allowance only to those living alone. I know some deserted wives who live alone with their children, and the ESB bill is a two-monthly crucifixion because the income of a deserted wife is extremely low. It is £25 or £30 a week with supplementary benefits or allowances, the old home assistance. The increase in the ESB bill will be quite substantial. Some deserted wives live with other persons, their mothers, or their fathers, or in a general setting with other persons, and they might not qualify. Assuming half of the deserted wives live alone with their children, the cost would be about £70,000 or £80,000 a year to give them the same ESB subsidy.

There is another category of persons for whom I should like to make a special plea because they are on low incomes. I refer to unmarried mothers.

There are 4,000 unmarried mothers in receipt of allowances. I do not know what percentage of unmarried mothers live alone with their children but some of them live in flats and I can only describe as heroic the efforts these women make to care for their children, to feed and clothe them and to educate them. If an unmarried mother earns more than £6 per week she will have a problem in regard to qualifying for the allowance. This means that these women who live in flats in urban areas have for the most part no income but the allowance. Therefore, they live quietly because there is not enough money for spending on any type of social activity. The application of the free electricity scheme to this group would be of major social benefit. In most cases an unmarried mother has only one child although in some cases there may be more than one child. The cost of extending the free electricity scheme to them would not be very much. If one were to take a situation in which only one in every three unmarried mothers lived alone, the cost per year would be about £60,000.

There is another large group of people for whom I should also like to make a special plea. I refer to adult dependants with children who are unemployed. There are about 32,000 families in this category. We know that there is a large number of single persons unemployed and in many of these cases there are adult dependants involved. The extension of the free electricity scheme especially in respect of those who are on what might be termed unemployment of a long duration would be of major benefit. Some of these people may be unemployable through no fault of their own. To extend the free electricity scheme to them would hardly cost more than £500,000 per year. Admittedly it would have to be on an intermittent basis since the unemployed find jobs though they may become unemployed again, but the group I am talking of are deserving of special consideration.

I shall not protract my argument in relation to these groups except to make a plea for that group of one-parent families, particularly widowed mothers and also, as is the case in quite a few instances nowadays, fathers who have lost their wives and who are caring for their children at home. These families, in terms of the selective application of subsidies, a concept that seems to be close to the hearts of many Ministers in these islands, deserve special consideration. The people in the various groups for whom I am making this plea spend more time in their homes than is the case of people in any other group. They have little social life because they cannot afford to spend money on anything other than the absolute necessities. They do not have cars. In their homes they are dependent on the lifeline of electricity accounts.

The Minister might consider also making available additional funds in the coming winter months to the officers of the various health boards for allocating supplementary welfare allowances. Additional discretion should be developed on these officers and additional funds made available to them so that they could help those in urgent need and who will be faced with the additional burden of heavy ESB bills. If the officers had this discretion they could pay some part of the extra amount due for electricity so as to help those people. This would mean that the additional fuel subsidy funds would be spent by way of the greatest allocation going to those most in need in accordance with the discretion of the officers concerned. With the hopefully early termination of the postal dispute and with the subsequent issuing of thousands of bills to consumers, I can envisage a situation going into the winter when the crunch period will arise in terms of arrears being paid and when many families will need the kind of additional discretionary assistance that I am talking of.

These, then, are some of the categories that I consider worthy of our special care. Down through the years successive Governments have effected major improvements in the scheme. The scheme which was introduced in 1967 and which cost then about £35,000 has grown and has been of major benefit. In 1968-69 about 40,000 people qualified in terms of that scheme while in 1973-74 the number was 74,000 and in 1976 the number exceeded 100,000. In 1978-79 the number of people expected to qualify in terms of the scheme is 132,000. The Coalition Government extended the scheme to include those in receipt of invalidity pensions from the Department or those in receipt of disabled person's maintenance allowances. In 1975 the qualifying age of eligibility for the free electricity scheme was reduced to 67. It had been reduced in the 1974 budget to 68 and in the 1973 budget to 69. This Government have been in office for two years and so far they have not made any change in the scheme. It is now necessary to remind the Minister that within the budgetary strategy of the Government, if one might call it that, there should be no great problem in meeting these modest suggestions. What I am asking for would not cost more than £1 million a year on top of the £6 million already being spent. It will go to those in greatest need. When one considers the millions of pounds whittled away by the Government during the past two years on the most grandiose subsidies to the most grandiose families in the country in wealth tax, the virtual abolition of the capital gains tax, the sweeping, across the board virtual abolition of motor tax, all I am asking for is a fraction of that money to be given to those in greatest need. The Government have well within their capacity the financial resources to assist in that regard.

I accept that there must be an economic rate charged for electricity but I do not accept that the consumer should have to bear the full burden. I reject the suggestion that all consumers, irrespective of income, should have to pay a penal rate when the Government have within their capacity the financial resources to pay a small subsidy to those in greatest need. I ask the Government to give our motion the most sympathetic consideration. If they are unable to accept it this evening I ask that consideration be given to it in the next budget. The only aspect of the amendment put down by the Minister for Economic Planning and Development that I can support is in relation to the need to achieve greater economies in the use of energy. I ask, particularly in relation to electricity, that the Government should review the income taxation relief allegedly offered if one avails of the ESB installation allowances because they do not provide any great incentive to families to avail of the offer. A great deal more work could be done in that regard. I regret, apart from the Minister's call to achieve greater economy in the use of energy, that the amendment proposed by the Government is not worthy of general support.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:—

"notes the problems arising as a result of increased energy costs, especially for lower income families and individuals, and also notes the need to achieve greater economies in energy use, and approves of the steps taken by the Government to improve living standards for lower income groups."

I would like to begin, first of all, by placing the ESB increase into some sort of overall context. I hoped there would be general agreement on all sides of the House for an economic price to be charged for electricity. The greatest single component in the additional costs incurred by the ESB is higher fuel costs. These arise outside the country. They are a fact of life which must be accepted by the country as a whole. That means the citizens of the country as a group. If they want the benefits of electricity generated through oil they must be prepared to pay the higher prices which now prevail for that scarce commodity.

That is the underlying reason for the increase of 19½ per cent which has now been applied and which will operate until the end of March next year. I would like to point out that this is the first increase in ESB charges in more than two years and that in fact during that period there were two price reductions. There was a price reduction of 2½ per cent in the autumn of 1977 and a further reduction of 5 per cent in April of last year. The net effect of these changes, if we take February 1977 as our starting point, which was the date of the last increase, and when we apply this current increase, is that electricity prices will have risen by something of the order of 22 per cent whereas prices in general have risen by somewhat more than that in that period. Incomes, of course, have risen by even larger amounts.

The price of electricity in real terms is actually lower now than it was in February 1977 and, of course, will continue to decline as the balance of this year progresses. If there is a difficulty about the high price of electricity today there must have been an even greater problem more than two years ago but I do not recall similar motions being introduced in this House at that time to mitigate the effects of excessive charges for electricity. There has been an increase now, primarily, as I said, attributed to higher oil prices but, taken in the longer term perspective, electricity costs are not excessively high when related to general movements in the economy, particularly those in incomes and prices.

The next point I would like to make on this is how substantial an effect do higher electricity prices have on the overall cost of living? Deputy Desmond quoted some rather extravagant figures in that context. The estimate available to me suggests that the effect on the overall price index will be an increase of .36 per cent, in other words, something of the order of one-third of 1 per cent. That is all.

It will not have a massive impact on prices or in real incomes in general. Even if one allows that there may be some secondary effect of firms adding on the higher electricity charges to their prices, and some generous additions to their margins in the process; even allowing for those sorts of indirect effects, it would still be the case that the overall impact on prices would be well below 1 per cent. Therefore I do not see any basis for the very extravagant figures quoted by Deputy B. Desmond. But, to repeat, the effect of the price rise in electricity is .36 per cent, that is, about one-third of 1 per cent on the overall price level. Having said that, I recognise that an increased ceiling of that relatively small magnitude can have a differential impact on different groups: what may be small in the budget of one household or firm can have a very noticeable impact on the family budget in another. The Government are conscious of the need to take account of the special circumstances of different groups. That concern is reflected in the amendment I have tabled and which I shall discuss in somewhat greater detail over the next few minutes.

First, I should like to take up the point that appears to be implicit in the Labour Party motion calling for subsidies for lower income families. Of course this is a topic that has received quite a good deal of airing in this House over the past year or so. Since on occasions people seem to avail of the opportunity almost to go out of their way to misrepresent the Government's position on the matter, I trust I shall be forgiven if I endeavour to repeat our position as carefully and as clearly as I can.

In so far as general subsidies are concerned the Government view is that these are not a desirable feature on a permanent basis of any healthy economy because they distort the charges for different things and therefore lead to people conducting their economic affairs on a false basis. It is our view, which we have repeated in the past, that it is in exceptional circumstances only that there should be any general provision of subsidies and that when the exceptional circumstances which give rise to such a general subsidy have passed the subsidy in question should be phased out gradually and eliminated.

Again I should like to emphasise that, in so far as there is a clear statement anywhere of the policies of the different parties in the House, their policies confirm that approach. But, of course, when it suits them, Members on the opposite side of the House try to pretend that that is not their approach. They try to convey the misleading impression that they would in some sense want to have their cake and eat it. Nonetheless, when one looks at the policy statements made by leaders and representatives of the different parties in the House, I think there is ultimately an acceptance of that approach—that permanent subsidies on a general basis are not a desirable feature of an economy.

Coming to the case for selective subsidies in particular circumstances for particular groups—and here I think we can claim that Fianna Fáil in Government have demonstrated conclusively over and over again that they are indeed quite willing to bring in such positive subsidies in appropriate circumstances—Deputy Desmond referred to the introduction of the existing free electricity scheme which, as he said, was introduced in 1967 by a Fianna Fáil Government. Of course there are other selective types of subsidy available for particular lower income categories, the obvious examples being free transport and free television licences and, more recently, of course the introduction of free telephone rentals for older people living alone. Therefore over the years the Government have been willing to identify particular needs and where the circumstances seemed appropriate to introduce selective subsidies to cater for the needs of the groups in question. I trust I do not have to elaborate on these earlier schemes in order to demonstrate our concern and competence in that area.

Moving on to the issue before us this evening, namely, that additional selective subsidies would be appropriate in the case of these increased ESB charges, we must recognise that there are some considerations pointing in the opposite direction. We must recognise that part of our need as a community in the wake of higher prices and reduced availability of oil is to have a maximum effort made to conserve energy and to economise in its use in all possible ways. In that context perhaps I should repeat for the benefit of the House that two of the principles for energy policy adopted by the International Energy Agency, of which this country is a member, are that domestic energy prices should be allowed to reach a level which encourages energy conservation and that the development of alternative sources of energy and vigorous conservation measures should be implemented which would include pricing policies that encourage conservation. In that context there is international recognition of the need not to hold down energy prices by artificial means.

The next question is whether that approach should be interpreted so comprehensively and vigorously as to preclude selective subsidies for particular groups. But certainly one would have to take account of the need not to cut across appropriate emphasis on conservation. For that reason one would have to look very carefully at the overall situation before embarking on any commitment to extend existing subsidies or to introduce new forms of energy subsidy to particular categories, however deserving on general grounds. Indeed, in that context one might argue that a more appropriate way of endeavouring to alleviate some of the hardship in this energy area would be to press ahead with a more selective conservation programme designed specifically to help lower income groups. If we can put together an effective package of measures which would enable them to bring standards of insulation in homes and so on up to the best levels, if we can identify appropriate financial and physical support arrangements to bring about that improvement, that would have the effect, on the one hand, of improving the actual heating standards of all the homes in question without the need to excessively encourage greater use of energy and without necessarily subsidising actual electricity consumption. That is one aspect which can be looked at carefully.

As to the actual effect on the income position and therefore the living standards of the families in question, the lower income groups who will be hit by this increase in ESB charges, this brings me to the third component of the amendment, namely, that this problem is best dealt with by general improvements in the social benefits available to these groups. Despite many attempts to represent the position to the contrary, over the past two years Fianna Fáil have made provision for improving the real living standards of people in this lower income groups, especially people in receipt of social welfare payments. The real value of increases in social welfare payments amount to nearly three times as much in the two-year period 1977 to 1979 compared with the whole four-year period 1973 to 1977, the period during which Opposition speakers tried to misleadingly claim there were some worthwhile improvements. Deputy Desmond repeated that untrue four year old allegation this evening. The facts show that the real improvement in the value of social welfare benefits was greater in the past two years than in the previous four years. To give them the additional money and allow them to decide how to use it is a better way in which to deal with the problems of the people in the lower income families.

That is a more satisfactory approach than compelling people to be tied into a growingly complex series of administrative layers. The more one seeks to cope with the problems of the lower income groups by introducing more and more specific schemes, the more one requires people to deal with forms and documents and to have transactions with more and more governmental or local authority agencies. If we can bypass the need to add on layers of administrative difficulty for people in lower income families by improving the income at their disposal, it is more satisfactory approach in the long term. That is the Government's general approach to the problem. In addition to social welfare benefits there was a substantial improvement of 23 per cent in children's allowances this year which will help many lower income families in addition to those dependent on social welfare benefits.

I will digress for a while to pick up one or two other points made by Deputy Desmond. Deputy Desmond tried to make the case that he was seeking relatively modest improvements which should not give rise to any great financial problems, and in the process he introduced some snide criticisms of the Government. The Deputy talked about people being treated like broiler chickens and being asked to queue up for hours to receive social welfare benefits to which they are entitled. What the Deputy did not point out is that they are compelled to adopt that position and to accept that hardship because there is a strike in breach of recognised procedures and in circumstances where many exceedingly generous offers were made to the workers in dispute. Therefore, no one with an elementary sense of justice could argue that the amounts involved implied any hardship for the groups concerned. No matter how modestly one does the calculations for pay rises in general this year, when these general increases are added on to the special offers made to the postal workers, we are talking in terms of increases of about £14 or £15 per week for those groups.

On a point of information, what has this to do with the motion?

I can make it relevant.

The last line or two of the amendment apparently covers lower income groups.

It does not cover the comparative income of postal workers.

Deputy Desmond introduced this point.

We should not discuss it.

The point I am trying to make is that people in the lower income groups dependent on social welfare benefits are compelled to accept this hardship in addition to not having yet received the increases which were voted to them by this House because of a situation where people better off than they are not willing to accept the operation of normal agreed procedures.

This is union bashing.

The Minister and the Deputy should not discuss the postal dispute.

The point I was trying to make——

The point the Minister has made is in order but after that we should not go further into the dispute.

The relevance is that, if we have these sort of pressures on the Governmental budget, because many of these claims call for payments that would have to be financed by the taxpayer, if the taxpayer is also to be asked to find money for improvements of a type the subject of the original Labour Party motion and if on top of that other groups are exerting pressures to have tax burdens reduced it is not a simple matter for any party to say in this House that there is no financial problem for the Government in seeking to meet the needs of these lower income groups.

My point was illustrated by Deputy Desmond's remarks and that is why I took it as an example. While in general many people and groups are willing to commit themselves to pious exortations of goodwill and support for the lower income groups, the hard reality is that by their behaviour many groups and individuals demonstrate that they are quite unwilling to accept any relative restraint or moderation in order to permit improvements in the position of the lower paid. The hardships that have been caused this year are a case in point. I can cite many other examples of the way in which hardship has been inflicted on the lower income group through behaviour which was no fault of their own and over which they have no control. They were made the innocent victims of the behaviour of other people. The Government would be more than happy to support any programme of action which would permit a genuine relative improvement in the position of lower income groups so that attempts which began with improvements in the situation of the lower income groups would not be used as the basis or the justification for others with higher incomes and a stronger bargaining position for their own advantage.

That is the general point to which I was drawing attention. It is part of the overall problem which has to be faced in these areas. The relevance of that at the time was that the budgetary position for the Government was naturally tight. It always is at budget time: I do not think Finance Ministers ever find themselves in the happy position when they can meet all the claims for extra expenditure and at the same time be able to meet all the claims for reduced taxation. The position at budget time was tight enough, but since then it has been hit by an overall slowing down in the international economy which has arisen from the higher price and the restrictive availability of oil. We have also been hit by the damage resulting from disputes, such as the postal strike.

Therefore, the ability of the Government to finance improvements such as those suggested has been reduced by the events of the economy in recent months. The Government have been examining the manner in which the position of those in the lower income groups could be improved during the winter, in particular. As the House is aware, part of the proposals for the national understanding, which was unfortunately rejected by the trade unions, was to make a further increase in social welfare benefits during the winter, specifically for the purpose of meeting higher costs such as higher heating costs that would arise during that period.

The Government have been reviewing the operations of the cheap fuel scheme during the winter months, and it is our intention and our confident expectation that an improved system can be brought into operation in the coming winter. I have made it clear to the House that the Government recognise the problems and needs of lower income families and the difficulties posed for them by any significant increase in energy costs. They are some of the reasons why the Government have been approaching the matter in a particular way and therefore why at this juncture we would not feel it appropriate to accept the motion but rather to advocate our amendment.

I have listened very carefully to the Minister outlining the difficulties which confront him and the Government in regard to solving this problem and the problems of the overall economy. He has told us of certain approaches which the Government are contemplating. He is a master at using vague language.

Some weeks ago we had what came to be known as the national understanding, and now we have Government approaches to try to solve the problems we have been discussing tonight. At one stage the Minister said,"That would be the Government's approach"—the conditional "would", not "will". Perhaps the Minister is doing his best, but we know that for some reason his "would" will never become "will", unless something drastic happens. The motion deplores the 20 per cent increase in ESB charges, which is unprecedented. Of course the Minister comes along to tell us that electricity consumers enjoyed two decreases in ESB charges in the past two years. That is so.

I was present during a Dáil debate on a Private Members' motion more than a year ago when the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, Deputy O'Malley announced his delight that a 5 per cent reduction in ESB charges had been possible. Neither he nor the Minister present tonight told us that that reduction came about not through any Government action but simply as a result of a reduction in energy costs in the world market and the position of the dollar versus sterling. The reduction came about under the fuel variation cost, and the Government had not one iota of input in the reduction.

There will be hardship as a result of this unprecedented increase. The Minister knows it, the country knows it and those who will be hardest hit know it. It is now a question of what can be done to ease that hardship, of what can be done to avoid at least part of it. We have been given certain ideas about how this would be done, not how it will be done if the Government see fit to do anything about anything. The Minister gave a reason for the increase. This was more typical of other members of his party and I am sorry to see him sliding into that habit tonight. The only reason he gave was the increased cost of energy. I happen to know, and so does the Minister, that the energy cost element in this 20 per cent increase accounts for only 40 per cent of the increase, according to the ESB themselves. In other words, 8 per cent overall is made up of increased fuel costs. It means that 60 per cent of the increase was accounted for by other increased costs for other reasons.

The Minister may tell us blandly that the increases are all due to increased energy costs, implying that nothing can be done about it. If that was true I would accept the Minister's statement, but it is not. The Government, while they may not be responsible for the 60 per cent, should have control over the reasons that resulted in 60 per cent of that increase but they do not seem to have that control over the major portion of the increased cost. The Minister, because of the sparseness of his reasoning on this issue, could not give us the reasons for the increased cost involved other than the increased cost of fuel. However, he gave us the result of this increased cost and told us that extraordinary and extravagant claims were made for the effect of a 20 per cent hike in ESB charges. He pointed out that we were in reality talking about one third of a percentage point on the CPI. However, that is only one element. I should like to know if the Minister was talking about the resultant effect of this increase when it works its way through the economy and if he took into account also the direct effect of the consumer having to pay 20 per cent extra on his ESB charge. I do not think he took the latter into account. The former point will have its effect as production costs increase through the economy resulting in all of us paying more for all manufactured and agricultural products and for anything for which power is used. The Minister's assertion that the price increase was due to oil costs only is unfair and inaccurate. I hope he did not intend to mislead anybody.

The Deputy is quoting me inaccurately. I did not say it was that only; I said that that was the single major component.

The Minister's sin is one of omission because that is the only one he gave.

That is true. I said that higher fuel costs were the single most important element accounting for the increased costs. I did not list the others and I would prefer if the Deputy did not say that I said it was the only one.

Would the Minister accept that he was guilty of the sin of omission?

Yes, but the Deputy will not cover everything in 30 minutes either.

We are sliding into a dangerous area here. The Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, seem to be accepting the fact that any increase now can be hung on the peg of increased oil costs. I have a fear that people may abuse this factor and seek increases beyond those which they would normally be entitled to, because they can say that everything is due to massively increased energy costs. The sooner the message gets home to people that everything cannot be blamed on increased oil costs, the better. The Minister appears to be saying that the whole thing has gone out of control because we do not produce oil and therefore costs resulting from this factor are uncontrollable. That is what is happening and the Ministers concerned do not appear to be taking any notice of this trend. I saw a reference in newspapers recently to the possibility of a 20 per cent increase in the price of a commodity used in the building industry and again the increase in the price of oil was blamed.

A further disturbing feature of this is that we are talking about areas where there is no competition. The Minister, in referring to a statement by the International Energy Agency, seemed to suggest that the only way to get conservation is to allow prices to rise, to price the commodity beyond the reach of the consumer and then the consumer will conserve. We have been told that some of the reasons for the increases are outside our control, and I accept that, but there are other factors involved. The Minister touched on what could be done in relation to social welfare recipients and lower paid workers in order to relieve the hardship they will undoubtedly face as a result of this and other increased costs. He mentioned again his Government's position on subsidies. On at least two other occasions the Minister made a similar policy statement. The Minister's statement seems to be a foolish choice. There is no argument here about the undesirable effects of permanent subsidies for any commodity; we all accept that they should not be permanent. The Minister has consistently said, however, that where certain circumstances were present—he mentioned the reasoning behind the introduction of subsidies by the National Coalition which, he suggested, was at the behest of Fianna Fáil—subsidies were relevant.

The Minister mentioned that last year inflation was down to 8 per cent and that that was a classic situation where the removal of subsidies was the obvious course of action. I wholeheartedly agree with the Minister on that point, but the Minister knows that that is not the present situation and was very careful not to mention his opinion of the current rate of inflation. I presume most people are aware that the figure for the last quarter, mid-November to mid-February, showed an increase in the consumer price index of 4.2. I am not suggesting that this can be multiplied by four to give an annual rating of 16.8—this figure is possible but I hope it will not come about. We definitely have double figure inflation at present and the Minister now gives the same reason for the withdrawal of subsidies as he gave when the figure was 8 per cent. There is something illogical, irrational and foolish about that.

I am not in favour of subsidies across the board, or permanent subsidies, as a feature of our economic life. They are undesirable, damaging and give a false impression. The Minister, in this context, amused me by mentioning using artificial methods. I presume he was not talking about another Bill going through the House. However, that is what it is—the subsidy could be called an economic contraceptive.

I mentioned last week on the radio, concerning these increases, selective subsidies, in the very broadest sense. This could be in the form of a direct payment to a selected group of people who need specific help or in the form of extra social welfare payments, as the Minister suggested would have been made if—and again there are conditions all along the line—the national understanding had been accepted. The Minister is not unique in suggesting that increased social welfare payments would be paid at the end of the year, if the national understanding had been accepted, for the relief of hardship in relation to high fuel bills during winter. In times of very high inflation the Coalition Government introduced supplementary increases in the autumn for social welfare recipients because we felt that that course was needed. The time is again ripe for thinking along those lines.

While you may relieve a certain category—the social welfare recipients who are known to the Minister and to other Departments, who can be named and numbered, and whose numbers are known there are many thousands with large families who are in full-time employment, whose incomes are so small that they are experiencing grave hardship because of this increased inflation. The problem is how to relieve that person. He is in full-time employment; for some reason or other, he is getting an uneconomical income and he and his wife and family cannot survive. He is not categorised by any Department as being disadvantaged socially, because of his income. He is a person for whom I have great sympathy and for whom something must be done. The social welfare recipient can be recognised as in need of help.

The Minister mentioned energy conservation and his only suggestion on that point was again to quote the international agency document. That may sound very fine and may produce the right result in time; however, if you allow energy costs to go so high that many people cannot use electricity, or gas, or coal, or power of any sort, because of the prohibitive cost that is a negative approach to any form of conservation. It may conserve and save energy, but we have to pay a very high price. In 1979, in a country which boasts of economic growth—or used to in the past; it is now falling back it would be bad to allow energy costs to rise and enforce conservation in that manner. There are more palatable ways to achieve the same result if—to use the Minister's term—the Government were in the mood to do anything about it.

At the moment, insulation material is subject to 10 per cent VAT. We have a Government appealing for conservation of energy and, at the same time, taking revenue, in the form of tax, from people who are trying to conserve energy. There is something contradictory about that kind of situation. Some positive solution could be found, perhaps by abolishing VAT on insulation material, or, indeed, providing a grant to people who are prepared to provide insulation. It may be suggested that I proposed this to the Minister, but what probably will happen is that from here on the Minister for the Environment will insist on insulation being introduced into every new house in order to qualify for the infamous £1,000 grant—in other words, making it even more infamous and even less useful than it has been up to now.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 20 June 1979.
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