Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Nov 1979

Vol. 316 No. 8

National Council for Education Awards Bill, 1978: Fifth Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. E. Collins

This is the end of the Dáil debate on the setting up on a statutory basis of the National Council for Education Awards and brings to an end the question of the comprehensive system for education at the third level. We are firmly establishing a binary system of third level education and the NCEA are being empowered on a statutory basis to co-ordinate and develop non-university third level. To the extent that the council are being established on a statutory basis, I welcome the present position in so far as it resolves their ad hoc position and it firmly establishes them as a statutory body. That is as it should be and the council will have my good wishes in their deliberations in the coming years.

I expressed doubts about the binary system and stated clearly that I am basically in favour of the unitary or comprehensive system for the third level sector, especially in the context of a country as small as Ireland. I questioned the position of the HEA in the third level non-university sector. The Bill has not adequately covered their role in this sector and in my view they are being left out in the cold. That is unfortunate and unnecessary. I am aware of reservations held by many people in the non-university sector about the university bias of the HEA. I do not consider that to be a major obstacle because, if necessary, the composition of the HEA could have been changed to allow for the non-university sector.

I am not satisfied that in the coming years the HEA will have the close contacts with the NCEA the Minister said. I am apprehensive about the amount of consultation in relation to evolving policy. I do not believe the provisions of section 16 in relation to the HEA financing the NCEA. I do not believe that is the same as the NCEA having an input into the policy-making function of the HEA. Therefore, I have serious reservations about the attitude the Minister is taking to the NCEA vis-à-vis their relationship with the HEA.

I criticised the composition of the council. I said it should have been wider, that the Union of Students in Ireland should have been specifically mentioned in section 5 and that they should be allowed de jure to be elected to the council. I regret the Minister has not tackled this aspect. I appreciate that it would be difficult to satisfy everybody when the composition of the council was being decided but we can only hope that the council as composed in the Bill will work equitably and that the Minister will ensure that all interests in the non-university sector will be represented on the council.

I said, too, that the question of apprenticeships was not adequately dealt with and that other subjects should have been specifically mentioned in section 3. The Minister put too narrow a section in the Bill.

The position of the director of the council, as specified in section 10, is not satisfactory. The Bill gives too much emphasis to the role of director as opposed to the role of the council. It should have been clearly specified that the director has a subsidiary role to play vis-à-vis the council and that the council are the supreme moving force under the Bill.

Lastly, in my opinion we should have a register.

I thank the Minister for accepting the amendment about the residency clause for members of the council. He did so in a generous spirit. That was a wise thing to do and I thank him for his generosity.

I do not want to delay the House. We have spoken at length on this Bill and have given it a comprehensive examination. We have agreed to differ on a number of points.

I wish the council well in their deliberations. I am sure the non-university sector, which can only be looked upon as the most important developing sector of third level education, has a great future and, under proper and wise council guidance from the council, will be a dynamic force in our education system.

Mr. Horgan

We are sending the Bill from this House and we send it with the good wishes of myself and of the Labour Party. There are flaws in this Bill and we have spent a great deal of time arguing about them since we started this lengthy debate, but I do not believe that any of them attack the core and substance of the Bill in any serious way, that is, the establishment of a statutory basis of the National Council for Educational Awards.

It is perhaps a reflection on the way in which we do our business nowadays and on the way in which events tend to overtake institutions which have grown a bit creaky in the joints that we are setting up in this Bill on a statutory basis an organisation which has been in existence for a number of years. I am reminded of the famous character in Myles na gCopaleen's novel At Swim Two Birds who was born at the age of 20. The difference between that character and the NCEA is that Myles na gCopaleen's character had a memory but without an experience to fill it, whereas in the case of the NCEA there is already ample experience. One might almost say that it is a rare occasion when so many children attend the marriage of their parents.

I hope that this Bill may prove the end of a phase during which we have referred to the technological sector of education as the non-university sector. I have never been in favour of negative definitions and I am reminded of the parable of the not unblack dog who chased the not unwhite sheep across the not ungreen field. With this Bill on a statutory basis, I hope that technological education will come into its own.

Minister for Education (Mr. Wilson)

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Dáil agus go háirithe leis na Teachtaí a bhí liom, mar a dearfá, nuair nach raibh siad i mo choinne, i rith na díospóireachta. Tá an diospóireacht anois beagnach thart agus an Bille beagnach rite sa Dáil. Dúirt mé nuair a thosnaigh mé anseo gurb í an fhorbairt is tábhachtaí ón Acht 1908 i leith, is é sin an tAcht a bhunaigh Ollscoil Náisiúnta na hÉireann. Níor chuala mé aon rud ó shin a chuirfeadh mise ar a chontráracht de thuairim sa Teach seo. Tá sé anathábhachtach ar fad go mbeadh forbairt ar an teicneolaíocht sa tír agus chuile dhuine a chabhraigh liom anseo, tá buíochas ag gabháil dó.

Mar gheall ar an mBille féin agus an chomhairle, ní dóigh liom go mbeidh aon rud cumhang-aigeantach ag baint leis. Dúradh sa díospóireacht go mbeadh an chontúirt ann da mba rud é go raibh béim rómhór ar gnéithe teichniúla amháin, go mbeadh robots á gcruthú againn san chuid sin den oideachas. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon rud san Bhille seo go mbeadh an claonadh sin air.

Luaigh an Teachta Collins an córas dáaicme nó an binary system agus an córas cuimsitheach. Dúirt mise i bhfad ó shín gurb í an fhealsúnacht atá agam mar gheall air sin ná go mbeadh an dá chóras ag druidim le chéile, nach mbeadh córas amháin ag teacht crosta ar an gcóras eile. Sin mo thuairim go fóill agus sin an aidhm agus an cuspóir atá agam.

Tá fhios agam go bhfuilimid sa Bhille seo ag cur comhairle ar bun a dhéanfaidh ana-éasca ar fad neamh-spleáchas na teicneolaíochta ar na hollscoileanna a bhunú, a chruthú agus a bheathú. Dúirt an Teachta Collins nach mbeadh a dhóthain tionchair ag Údáras Um Ard Oideachas ar an gcomhairle nua. Tá fhios ag chuile dhuine agus ag chuile Theachta sa Dáil agus ag chuile dhuine a bhfuil baint aige le cúrsaí polaitíochta go bhfuil ana-thábhacht ar fad ag baint leis an geilleagar, agus tá fhios againn go mbeidh an tUdarás Um Ard Oideachas ag tabhairt an airgid don chomhairle agus beidh ar an Údáras Um Ard Oideachas mar sin súil ghéar a choinneáil ar an gcomhairle, agus bíodh an Teachta seo sásta go mbeidh tionchar maith ag an Údarás ar an gcomhairle.

I rith na díospóireachta bhíomar ag caint ar na mic léinn. Theaspáin mise don Teach agus don Teachta a bhí ag caint go bhfuil cumhacht ag an Aire iad a chur ar an gcomhairle, agus dúirt mé gur gné freachnairceach den oideachas sa tír seo agus i dtíortha eile go bhfuil na mic léinn ag cur suime ní amháin i riarachán sna hollscoileanna ach freisin sna hábhair atá á múineadh iontu. Is maith an rud sin agus tá fhios agam go mbeadh siad in inimhe comhairle a thabhairt don CNCO chun é d'fhorbairt.

Tá fhios agam nach bhfuil an Teachta Collins sásta leis an méid atá sa Bhille mar ceapann sé gur cóir an Comhairle Oiliúna a bheith luaite ann agus ceapann sé gur cóir go mbeadh baint níos mó ag an gcomhairle leis an gComhairle Oiliúna. Mar do mhinigh mé i rith na díospóireachta, tá mise sásta go bhfuil ár ndóthain againn sa Bhille seo mar gheall ar na cáilíochtaí, agus is comhairle um cháilíochtaí atá i gceist againn anseo.

Mar gheall ar na cumhachtaí atá ag an gcomhairle féin, tá se so-léite sa Bhille go bhfuil an cumhacht iomlán ag an gcomhairle. Dá bhrí sin, aon seirbhíseach atá ag an gcomhairle, tá sé go díreach faoin gcomhairle, agus ní féidir le haoinne—an duine is tábhachtaí de na seirbhísí go dtí an duine is lú des na seirbhísí—aon rud a dhéanamh gan toiliú na comhairle.

Dúirt an Teachta Horgan, cé go raibh díospóireacht againn anseo agus leasúcháin agus rl, nach raibh croí an Bhille faoi ionsaí anseo; admhaím sín agus tá me buíoch de na Teachtaí mar gheall air sin. Is beartas reachtúil é seo agus is dóigh liom go rachaidh sé chun socair na teicneolaíochta agus chun socair na tíre.

Question put and agreed to.