Vol. 318 No. 8
asked the Minister for Education in relation to his reply to Question No. 242 of 3 May 1978, the result of the inquiry made by him to the possible response by the Church of Ireland Board of Education and the Secondary Education Committee to an invitation from him to discuss the draft model deed of trust for community schools; if he issued any such invitation, or if such invitation was issued; if any discussions took place; and if agreement was reached in the course of such discussions.
11.
asked the Minister for Education in relation to his reply to Question No. 242 of 3 May 1978, the reasons an invitation was not issued to the Church of Ireland Board of Education and the Secondary Education Committee at the same time and in the same terms as the invitations to the other groups mentioned in the reply.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 and 11 together.
The invitation was issued to the joint secretary of the two bodies concerned, and was taken up by the Church of Ireland Board of Education. Representatives of that body met me and officials of my Department on 7 June 1978.
The delegation raised a number of matters relating to the draft deed, and it was clear that there was agreement in many instances on these matters. The discussion was of a general nature, and it was not intended that specific agreements be recorded in a formal way.
I may add that during the course of a meeting which a deputation from the Secondary Education Committee had with me on 25 October 1979 reference was also made to the deed of trust for community schools. The committee subsequently conveyed their gratitude for the time devoted to their concerns and the close attention given to each matter raised.
The procedure adopted for consultations with the different interests was related to the circumstances of the apparent degree of their involvement at the time in amendments to the draft deed.
It is some time since these Questions were first placed on the Order Paper. I may state that whatever misunderstandings there may have been at that time, based on mistaken assertions of individuals, there is at present a full consensus as to the role and function of the community school and as to the importance which the Protestant community attaches to the place of its own secondary schools in the educational system.
Would the Minister agree that it is a fair assumption from his fairly apologetic replies to these questions that he has not made a serious attempt to involve the Protestant institutional interests in the management of community schools, and that he is happy to see them languishing in their educational ghetto?
That is argument. The Deputy is not asking a serious supplementary question calculated to get the information he is seeking. This is an argumentative type of question which I try to discourage.
There is a specific question which the Minister has all but avoided, that is, Question No. 11, which asked him the reasons and invitation was not issued to the Church of Ireland Board of Education in the same terms as the invitations to the other groups mentioned in reply to an earlier question. In the light of his reply would the Minister not agree that it is impossible to avoid the impression that he adopted a different mode in asking Protestants for consultations, in asking Catholics for consultations, and that he has behaved in a sectarian manner?
First of all I deny absolutely that there is anything apologetic about my answer. I also deny that there was any distinction between Protestants and others who were invited. As far as my philosophy is concerned there are citizens of this country and there are children citizens, all of whom are treated equally, and I deprecate and condemn Deputy Horgan's introduction of sectarianism here because there will be no "Factory of Grievances" in this part of the country.
If the Minister did not make a distinction between the different denominations involved, would he explain why he asked the Catholic interests straight but merely made an inquiry of the Protestant interests whether they would welcome an invitation?
If the Deputy waits for the answers to the questions of Deputy Collins he will see that an invitation was sent out to the Church of Ireland and the Secondary School Committee, that one of the two bodies took it up, and that the invitation went generally to the Church of Ireland and to the committee representing other denominations.
Does the Minister not agree that the invitation to the Secondary Education Committee of the Protestant churches was not issued at the same time and in the same terms as the invitation to the Catholic interests?
The Protestant representatives, whether from the Church of Ireland or the Secondary School Board, expressed to me their concern mainly about the block grants for their sdchools. They made it quite clear to me that that was their primary concern. I reiterate that I think it is a poor day for this House when sectarianism is raised or references to sectarianism are made by a Deputy who I know is not sectarianminded. He should be ashamed of himself.
Will the Minister not agree that by instituting a two-tier system of consultation it is very difficult for him to avoid that accusation?
Question No. 12.
This is not fair. I have not asked any question——
It may not seem fair to the Deputy but the Chair is not compelled to go round the House to give each Deputy a quota of supplementary questions.
On a point of order, I refrained from asking supplementaries on Deputy Horgan's questions because I wanted to have Question Time expedited, but as a spokesman for a major party I should be allowed to ask at least one question.
The Chair points out that it is totally at the discretion of the Chair how many supplementary questions, if any, may be asked.
12.
asked the Minister for Education the interests he invited or contacted for submissions concerning the current draft deeds of trust for community schools and if he will comment on the recent statement of the Secondary Education Committee representing a criticism of the deeds of trust by four minority religions in the State.
13.
asked the Minister for Education the consultations he has had with interests from the non-Roman Catholic community in the matter of the draft deeds of trust for community schools currently in circulation and if he will make a statement on the matter.
14.
asked the Minister for Education if, in view of the serious reservations expressed in October by the Secondary Education Committee representing the views of four minority churches, community schools can now be reckoned to be multi-denominational and if he will make a statement on the matter.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 12, 13, and 14 together.
Consultations regarding the current draft deed of trust took place with the following organisations: Conference of Major Superiors; the Episcopal Commission on Education; the Church of Ireland Board of Education; the Irish Vocational Education Association; the Association of Principals and VicePrincipals of Community and Comprehensive Schools; the Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland; the Teachers' Union of Ireland.
The model deed of trust makes provision for a comprehensive system of post-primary education open to all the children of the community. I am fully satisfied that arrangements are made to ensure that the schools are entirely suitable for the children of all religious persuasions who may be enrolled in them. In this connection also I would refer the Deputy to the reply which I have given to Questions Nos. 10 and 11.
I note from the reply that the Secondary Education Committee did not figure in the list of bodies with which the Minister had consultations. In his reply to Deputy Horgan the Minister said he met the committee on 25 October 1979. Would he explain why he did not have in-depth discussions with the committee, which represent four of the main minority religions in the State, until after the committee had been forced to make a highly critical statement on the whole community school position?
The Deputy is not asking a question.
With your permission I will answer that supplementary question.
The Chair did not detect any question.
I asked the Minister a direct question. I cannot take that. The record of the House will show that I put the question directly to the Minister.
The Deputy should ask the question through the Chair. If the Deputy has a grievance against the Chair, the Chair will have to deal with that.
I asked a supplementary question in accordance with procedure. I said "arising out of the Minister's reply" and I then asked him the question.
The Chair did not detect any question. The Deputy made a long statement as the record will show, which is totally irrelevant and not permissible.
The record will show that I asked a question.
If the Deputy had been listening carefully he would have noticed that that part of his supplementary question was answered in my original answer. I sent a letter of invitation to the Church of Ireland and the Secondary School Board. For the information of the House those two bodies have the same secretary. In fact, only the Church of Ireland people came. With regard to the statement to which the Deputy referred, there was no foundation whatsoever for that statement. I want to put that on record in this House. It was picked up by the Leader of the Fine Gael Party and also used to start some kind of sectarian slant on this whole business in this House. Again, I deprecate that and decry it. It has no place in this House and it will have no place in the Department of Education as long as I am there.
Is the Minister aware of the statement made by the Secondary Education Committee in October which called into question the multi-denominational aspect of community schools in the country in view of their structure? Is he aware that the action he took in the latter months of last year has caused the minority religious education authorities to be extremely critical of the manner in which he has concluded these negotiations on community schools?
That is not true and it is not what we have on record from the particular secondary school board, to which the Deputy refers. It is not what we have on record from the Church of Ireland Board and it is not what I have on record from the schools with which I deal. Again, I must say that I deprecate strongly that the Fine Gael Party are making a party political matter out of this. It ill serves the House and the country. As I said before, there will be no "Factory of Grievances" here.
Is the Minister aware of a statement issued by the Secondary Education Committee, which represent the four minority religions, on 9 October 1979?
I am fully aware of this. There is no substance whatsoever in it. The Secondary Board accept that decision today.
Did you make any statement of refutation on the publication of that statement?
Through the Chair. The Deputy will not have dialogue across the floor of the House. The Chair is being ignored.
I did.
When did the Minister make the statement refuting the allocations in the newspaper report of 10 October last?
As far as I know it was reported the following day in The Irish Times.
15.
asked the Minister for Education if his attention has been drawn to a report in ASTIR December 1979 quoting him as saying that the community schools would be private schools and not State schools; if he will make a statement on the accuracy of the report indicating his policy on the matter in detail.
I have seen the report referred to by the Deputy. As I made clear subsequently the report was mistaken. Community schools are vested in the Minister for Education and are leased to trustees under certain terms and conditions, as contained in the deeds of trust. Accordingly they are not private institutions. Subject to compliance with the terms of the deed of trust, the authorities of the schools establish their own procedures for the day-to-day conduct of the schools, selection of teachers and so forth.
Could the Minister tell us in what manner he made clear his disagreement with this report? Could he indicate what transpired at the meeting that in his opinion might have given rise to this erroneous report? What statement of his might have been ministerpreted by the union delegation and might have led to the publication in question?
As I take it there were two parts in the Deputy's question, the first was——
What steps the Minister took to deny the statement?
As far as I remember I issued a statement on it to the papers, to The Cork Examiner on 20 December 1979.
I will accept The Cork Examiner.
As I recall, the second part of the question was what I could have said to give rise to this. That is a hypothetical question and I would find it very difficult to answer it. There is one aspect of the discussion which took place that day which may possibly have given rise to it but it was not because of any lack of clarity on my part or on the part of my officials. It is a fundamental, philosophical one, how do you view the Department of Education? Do you review it as all-controlling, as the source of the ukase? When a discussion arose as to the activities of the Boards of management of the schools I pointed out that I did not envisage the Department's role as that of interfering in every matter with regard to appointments and the running of the schools. I notice a slight ambivalence in attitude among people. We have been talking for a long time about trying to involve the community and the professional people in the management of schools. On the other hand, there seems to be a demand that the interference should come from the centre. We would want to make up our minds as to whether we are really committed to devolution of authority with regard to schools or whether we want a heavily centralised system such as the French system. That is the only possibility of an interpretation of what I had to say being wrong.
Have the ASTI delegation, who apparently reported this misunderstanding in their newspaper, now accepted that the state of affairs is as outlined by the Minister here today?
I do not think that the ASTI delegation interpreted what went on like that. A correspondent in their journal did, as far as I can make out.
16.
asked the Minister for Education the steps he intends to take to ensure that parents of children of minority religions who attend community schools get fair representation on boards of management of such schools.
The representatives of parents on the management board of community schools are elected by the parents of pupils of the school. I would anticipate that, where there is a significant proportion of pupils of minority religions enrolled in a school, this fact would be reflected in the representation of parent interests. In such circumstances also it would not be unreasonable to assume that the situation would have a bearing on the selection of its representatives by the relevant vocational education committees to serve as members of the board.
I would not consider it desirable that in connection with either the election or selection of members of the management board there should be an arrangement, or requirement, for persons to make a declaration as to their religious persuation or that the procedure for the appointment of members should require that formal note be taken of any such consideration.
Is the Minister aware of reservations being expressed by interests on behalf of the Protestant section of our society stating quite clearly that they wish to be represented on boards of management but they do not see how that can be because there is no in-built mechanism whereby they can be represented on boards of management in areas where there is a substantial Protestant community? Would he not consider establishing some mechanism to ensure that the representatives of the Protestant communities would have the opportunity of getting representation as of right on certain boards of management of community schools?
I can repeat what I said, that I anticipate where there is a certain proportion of pupils of minority religions enrolled in the schools that they would be represented. In fact, in the school in Bailieboro' in my constituency we are taking steps towards that end.
Am I correct in interpreting what the Minister has said as expressing the factual situation that, in relation to the community schools and the deed of trust that he has just finalised, there is no possibility of institutional Protestant representation at board of management level on the same sort of terms as institutional Catholic representation?
Without involvement in the actual school, in the payment of the percentage and so on, there is no institutional one. But let me repeat that in each case where there is a substantial minority of pupils it is my decision and my resolution that those parents will be represented on the board of management. I can assure the House that this will be so.
Is the Minister saying that if any Protestant institutional interest comes along with some percentage of the capital cost of the community school in their pocket the way Catholic religious orders have done, that they too would be entitled to institutional representation on the board of management? Is this the price of involvement?
No such proposal has ever been made. The minority religions have accepted the idea of denominational comprehensive schools, as the Deputy knows, and we have a number of them, both in Dublin and Cork, and they are working out very well with an intake of Catholic or majority religion pupils as well. But I see no difficulty whatsoever in proper representation for the minority on the boards.
Through the religious leaders or the parents?
It could be both ways.
Have any representations been made to the Minister that minority religious authorities might be interested in establishing their own community schools?
I made that clear in my original reply. The minority religions are more than interested in maintaining their own schools with their ethos. We are more than anxious that they should be financed adequately to keep them flourishing.
Is the Minister satisfied that they are being adequately financed to have their own schools?
As the Deputy knows very well, there is hardly anybody in education who is satisfied with the amount of finance that they are getting.
Is the Minister saying that the only way there can be a Protestant representation on the boards of management of community schools or vocational educational committees is by the leave of the Catholic religious orders or by fighting, one would hope not in a sectarian fashion, an election for parent representatives?
What I am saying is that there are several democratic processes through which they will, if they are a strong minority in the school, get representation on the boards of management.
