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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 May 1980

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Distribution of Wealth.

38.

asked the Minister for Finance the data, if any, which exists on the distribution of wealth in Ireland.

The annual reports of the Revenue Commissioners for the years ended 1976 and 1977 contain information about the numbers of assessable persons who were liable to wealth tax and the value of the taxable and exempt property comprised in the taxable wealth of assessable persons. Copies of these reports are available in the Library.

Is the Tánaiste aware——

The Deputy is promoting the Minister.

We are determined he will get his just rewards.

Is the Minister aware of research which has been carried out by social scientists and economists for the Economic and Social Research Institute who have calculated, on the basis of the most conservative estimates, that more than half the wealth of the country is in the hands of approximately 6 per cent of the population? Would he care to comment on those findings?

The ESRI have been conducting on-going examinations in this area, on the basis of information available to them, which is not completely accurate, and because of the lack of precise information in respect of individual incomes I do not think they would suggest that their information is comprehensive and precise.

Would the Minister not agree that, in all the articles and learned publications by the social scientists and economists concerned, there has been agreement on the lack of data about the distribution of income and wealth in Ireland? Would he further say if he considers that the Government's decision to discontinue collection of the wealth tax added to, or subtracts from, the data available to the public on this issue?

No. If the Deputy were to require precise information on the distribution of wealth in Ireland, that would involve introducing legislation requiring people to give full details of their individual or corporate wealth. The Deputy can see the consequences of that.

In view of the fact that there is inadequate precise information in this area, would the Minister say if he has any proposals to obtain precise information? If so, how does he propose to go about it?

I can assure the Deputy that as far as the Revenue Commissioners are concerned, we intend to strengthen their role in this area and to give them every facility to inform themselves about revenue collection, which is one of the areas about which the Deputy is concerned. There is scope for carrying out continuing detailed economic and social studies which would be based on certain factors and I would be prepared to encourage that.

I was glad to hear the Minister say he is prepared to support this move, but I asked if he proposed to do anything about it? Does he propose to conduct any studies so that his job as Minister for Finance would be easier and we would not be talking about curbing public expenditure?

"Do anything about it" is a nice general phrase. Whether anything done would satisfy that criterion would be doubtful but to do anything about it effectively would require the introduction of legislation calling on each and every person and corporation to give full details of their wealth. The Deputy will appreciate that that would be undesirable and not very feasible.

We could all benefit from the reply to this question.

That may be, but we have had several supplementaries on it.

There is more time wasted interrupting Deputies' supplementary questions than there is getting replies to them.

The Minister said legislation would be difficult and that he would be prepared to support things that might be done, but is there any halfway house, doing something directly from the Department, which might move us towards establishing the type of legislation that might be needed?

In relation to the revenue machinery, which is a very effective way of getting at the level of income and tax payable, I am strengthening in every way I can, in terms of increased staff, increased facilities and more sophisticated analyses, the capacity of Revenue. The House is concerned that everybody will pay an appropriate share of tax on his income.

Has the Minister any reason to doubt the statistics which say that 6 per cent of the population own over half the wealth in this country?

On the basis of the analysis conducted it seemed a reasonable conclusion but, as I indicated, that was not a completely comprehensive basis——

Would the Minister not agree that, on the basis of it being reasonably accurate, it is a most undesirable position in a society like ours? If he agrees, what proposals does he have to adjust the position?

If we state the factors in stark terms as the Deputy suggests, one could reach the conclusions he suggested, but the reality is not quite that strong.

Is the position satisfactory?

I have called Question No. 39. We have spent about seven minutes on this question.

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