On this section could I ask the Minister what is the position as far as the present county committees of agriculture are concerned? Do I take it that the entire committee will be disbanded, both council members and what we call outside members of the council? The Government are proposing here to appoint completely new county committees of agriculture. Exactly what is the position as far as this is concerned?
Agriculture (Amendment) Bill, 1979: Committee and Final Stages.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill".
Basically, it means that committees will be disbanded. It will be a whole new organisation.
Outside and inside members?
Yes. It will then be a matter for the county councils.
To re-appoint?
Yes. In Wexford, for instance, they are elected on a 60-40 basis, but they still have to go back to the council for ratification.
It is mentioned in the Bill that the ratio will be 40 per cent-60 per cent. Does the Bill specifically state that 60 per cent must be members of a council or have they an option to appoint outside members as in the county council member seats?
They have that option.
To appoint how many?
Any number they wish. If the county council decide that they want to accommodate further rural organisations other than the 40 per cent, they are welcome to do that on the inside 60 per cent.
Can I take it then that the county council in their own 60 per cent of the members of the committee can appoint a full 60 per cent as outside members?
If they want to, yes.
They have that option?
They have, yes.
One big question is the question of the outside bodies on the county committees of agriculture. This is creating a little curiosity on how exactly it is going to be worked out.
A question was raised on Second Stage, to which we have had quite a few answers pointing in different directions. Outside members to 40 per cent are being preserved for the rural organisations. Certain qualifications are laid down under the Act. I should like to know how exactly this issue is going to be worked out. We have, as the Minister knows, in our county, as in every county in Ireland, numerous organisations representing agriculture. In Wexford alone, we have the IFA, the Young Farmers' Clubs, the ICA, the BBA, Muintir na Tíre, Wexford Liquid Milk Producers, the Co-Operative Marts, Waterford Co-operative. We also have the Dublin Liquid Milk Producers. I do not envy any Minister who has the responsibility of trying to sort out, in the event of a dispute, what organisations should get seats on the county committees of agriculture.
Approximately six seats will be available in Wexford for the outside bodies—I am taking this as an example. We have at the same time approximately nine or ten different organisations representing all the different sectional interests of agriculture within that county. The Bill clearly specifies the qualifications of each person to be determined by the Minister. I should like to know what criteria the Minister will use when determining the qualifications of each person.
Secondly, in the event of a dispute between the different organisations in each county, how will the Minister operate this system whereby he will select certain organisations to be represented on the committee of agriculture? This is something which has not been clarified up to now.
The Chair wishes to come in at this stage. The Chair allowed the Deputy to raise the question and will allow it to be answered. I would point out that this matter was debated in full on the principal day. It does not really arise. If the Chair wants to be completely strict, it does not arise on this Bill; it was a matter for the Principal Act. However, it has been raised and I shall allow the Minister of State to reply.
I wish to clarify the situation on one point. The Minister has no say whatever in what members any rural organisation nominate, or the calibre of person to be nominated by them. The responsibility of the Minister will be to consider all representations made. All CAOs have been notified and asked for a list of rural organisations in each county—active rural organisations, I mean, not ones that mushroom overnight. The Deputy will understand that organisations that have become active just now because there might be a possibility of getting representation on a committee of agriculture will not be considered. The Deputy will appreciate that.
Certainly.
Representations have also been received from various rural bodies. These will all have to be looked at and considered on merit. That is basically how it will be determined. I want to say that it will be determined on a county to county basis, not blanketwise for the whole country. As the Deputy will appreciate, some counties have the ICMSA and others do not, some have small farmers' organisations and others have not. I am sure the Irish Countrywomen's Association are more active in some counties than in others. All those things will have to be taken into consideration when a final decision is arrived at. I want to stress again, as I did on the last occasion when we discussed this Bill, that the Minister will not have any say whatsoever in relation to the people who will be nominated by those organisations, as to who he considers should get representation in any one county.
I understood we could discuss this under section 2.
I am allowing a certain amount of debate on it but it was debated on the Principal Bill which is now an Act.
It was also debated on the Second Stage of this Bill. The Minister has retained the right to have the final say as far as the organisation is concerned. I know that in most counties there has been a certain amount of dispute as to who should be the representative. I would like to know, in the event of a dispute in any particular county and where they fail to have an agreement as to who will represent the different organisations, who will make the final decision?
I will.
That is all I want to hear. I am glad to hear that the final decision will be made by the Minister as to who will represent the different organisations in the event of a dispute.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."
Paragraph (a) states:
for the purposes of the Principal Act, be deemed to be an annual meeting of such council held in an election year.
I understand that the new committee may be set up in the next couple of months. Do I take it that the date of the annual general meeting of each county committee of agriculture will be changed in accordance with a time factor in relation to the new committee? Up to this our annual general meeting was always held immediately after the county council elections and we just carried on from one year to the next. It will take some time to bring this Bill through the Seanad and to have it enacted so there may be a delay of at least another month. If this changes the time of the annual general meeting what will be the position?
It will be a matter for the county committees of agriculture in each county to determine. The annual general meeting will be due to be held next month or the following month. I hope this will fall in line with the annual general meeting as happened up to this. The local elections were held in June last year so it was possibly the end of July before the county committees of agriculture held their annual general meeting. I hope, all things being equal, that it will fall near enough to that date.
Is it not right to say that the annual general meeting must be held within 14 days of the date of the previous annual general meeting? That is the provision for the county councils and it is also for most of the committees. Does the same apply for the county committees of agriculture?
Not necessarily.
There may be a disturbance if this Bill is not enacted in time for the annual general meeting which is usually held in the first week of July. What is the regulation as far as the annual general meeting is concerned? What is the regulation if there is any disturbance here?
I can see the Deputy's point. If the county committees wish to hold their annual general meetings I am sure they are as well aware as I am that this Bill will become law within the next couple of weeks. I hoped to have this Bill passed a few weeks ago, which would have allowed us time to go through the rural organisations, have all the necessary documentation made out and notification sent to county councils to fall in line with the annual general meeting or within the 14 days the Deputy is talking about. If this Bill does not become law within the period of time the Deputy is talking about it will be up to the county committees of agriculture to hold their meetings or not to hold them. It is a matter for them. It is a new ball game when this Bill becomes law.
This will take some time and the old committees will be disbanded. According to this Bill, once the new committees are set up a new annual general meeting is started. What is the regulation under the statute at the moment as far as the annual general meeting is concerned? Is there a regulation governing the holding of an annual general meeting? There has to be a time lag once the old committees are disbanded.
There is nothing in this Bill governing annual general meetings.
There may not be anything in this Bill but there is a regulation governing the holding of annual general meetings for all committees.
As soon as the Bill is passed and as soon as the documentation is ready and county councils get notification in relation to the number of seats for each rural organisation the Minister will then set a date when all old committees will be disbanded and a certain length of time for the new ones to be formulated.
Where is the regulation under a Statute?
As far as the Chair sees we are dealing with something now which does not really arise under this section. It is only dealing with meetings of county councils.
Section 3 (b) states:
for the purposes of section 26 (2) of the Agriculture (An Chomhairle Oiliuna Talmhaíochta) Act, 1979, be deemed to be the annual meeting referred to therein.
This seems to be the annual general meeting that we are talking about.
It is the county council.
It is a certainty that there will be a time lag. The Minister said he will have to go through the different counties one after the other to try to determine what organisations are entitled to representation. I cannot see this being done inside the space of two or three months so there is bound to be a time lag. If the annual general meeting of the county committees of agriculture is disturbed what effect will that have on the annual general meeting the following year?
I hope it will revert back to the ordinary general meeting as heretofore. It will be disturbed for only one year, say the year is only for 9 months. That is what I have in mind.
Are the county committees of agriculture entitled to go back the following year to the usual July meetings?
I would say so.
Could we have clarification on that? It might be the intention but are we caught under statute?
No.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 4 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment and passed.