asked the Minister for Energy the criteria laid down for designating garages for the purposes of supplying petrol as a result of the recent petrol tanker drivers' strike; if he is satisfied that it was done on an equitable and non-political basis; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - Petrol Tanker Drivers' Strike .
14.
: The basic underlying criterion in choice of designated stations was geographical location, the objective being, wherever possible, to choose stations of adequate size in suitable locations. Other factors taken into account were—(1) the population of each county; (2) the area of counties; (3) the probable availability of stations with product; (4) the likelihood of stations and areas being short of product; (5) the availability of supplies from non-strike bound sources; (6) relative ease of access and avoidance of congestion.
The list of designated stations was drawn up by officers of my Department on the basis of information available to them. I am fully satisfied that the work of designation was done on an equitable and non-political basis.
The designated garage system was devised as a means of ensuring petrol supplies to essential users in very difficult and rapidly changing circumstances.
15.
asked the Minister for Energy to whom the profits on petrol and other oils distributed during the strike by Army personnel under the aegis of his Department will accrue; and the estimated amount of profit involved.
: It is the intention of the Government that the total cost of involvement by the Defence Forces in distribution of petroleum products during the recent industrial dispute in the industry should be recovered from the oil companies concerned. The amount to be recovered, which will take some time to calculate, will be related to actual costs and not to profits.
I am not in a position to estimate the amount of profits made by the oil companies on the products concerned.
: Can the Minister say how he proposes to recover these costs if the oil companies refuse to cough up? Is he on record as saying that when the emergency distribution arrangements were inaugurated there was no financial agreement with the oil companies?
: I did not say that but the substance of what I said might amount to that. I said a lot of accounting would have to be done when the dispute was over but that that was not my priority at the time but something we would worry about later. If the Deputy is worried about what is to be done if the oil companies refuse to pay I suggest he waits until that happens.
: In order to calculate for ourselves the amount of profit involved could the Minister indicate the amount of petrol distributed during the period under the emergency regulations?
: During the period 1 to 14 October the Army moved 11.4 million gallons of petroleum products. The Deputy will appreciate these were not all petrol.
: The question refers to petrol and other oils. Am I to take it from the tenor of the Minister's reply that he regards it as perfectly acceptable for the oil companies to make profits above the net costs of the operation on the oil distributed during this period?
: I do not understand how the Deputy can arrive at that conclusion as I do not know the figures and I assume he does not.
: They did not make a loss surely?
: I do not know.
: Next question, please.
16.
asked the Minister for Energy if he will request his Department in consultation with other relevant Departments, to carry out a study which would attempt to strike a balance of national advantage or disadvantage, between (i) the saving of oil imports and the more economic use of constricted oil supplies resulting from the recent stoppage in petrol deliveries on the one hand, and (ii) its harmful effects elsewhere in the economy on the other hand.
: It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, in a study of this kind to ascertain in any meaningful way whatever economy of fuel consumption that may have resulted from the recent supply interruption.
During the period when distribution of oil supplies was affected oil import savings will have accrued largely from premises left unheated, journeys not undertaken and so on. The public in general were tolerant of such inconvenience in the special circumstances but it would be unreasonable to expect them to accept such inconvenience on a permanent basis unless there was a general shortage of oil world-wide. In so far as industrial consumers of oil were concerned supply was matched to demand either by ad hoc measures, or by drawing on reserves which, in turn, will have to be replenished quickly.
It is not likely, therefore, that there was a significantly more economic use of constricted supplies which could be sustained for an indefinite period.
: The Minister was not in the House a quarter of an hour ago but would he consider, in the context of the question I put down, the material in Question No. 6 on today's Order Paper which refers to a study undertaken by the National Board for Science and Technology on the cost benefits of energy consumption in the Dublin region? Would he consider in particular the admitted superior efficiency with which the Dublin bus services operated during this period on account of the roads being less congested? These are the factors I meant the Minister's Department to look at because they may contain lessons for the future of an overall kind both in regard to energy saving and better use of existing transport, particularly public transport.
: There is another question which touches more closely on that topic. In my reply I am making the point that in so far as the recent situation produced involuntary saving one cannot rely on that kind of approach for a permanent solution. It may indicate the kind of benefits that might accrue from having relatively traffic-free roads for the sake of public transport but it would not help to bring about such traffic-free conditions by contemplating a compulsory shortage of petrol for motorists.
: I do not want to be taken as recommending this although I have done so informally once or twice——
: A question, please.
: Suppose we had a permanent built-in system of rationing petrol and oil so that it would not be compulsorily taking people off the road but forcing them to economise at their own pace. Could the Minister not see large scale advantages in a system of that kind on the balance of payments side, the energy conservation side and the quality of life side because of more smoothly moving public transport?
: There would be considerable benefits in a situation where there was less private transport and more public transport on the roads. As I shall indicate later, there are other factors involved in that and most of them are outside my ministerial control.
17.
asked the Minister for Energy the reason no petrol supplies were made available to a garage (details supplied) in County Meath during the petrol strike, although it was a designated garage; and in view of the damages caused to the trade of the garage as a result, the action he proposes to take to compensate the proprietor.
: I have inquired into the circumstances which gave rise to the failure to make a delivery to this particular designated station. While it would be inappropriate of me to go into precise details of this particular case. I am satisfied that the failure to make a delivery was due to a combination of circumstances which were almost bound to arise in isolated cases, given the emergency nature of the operations.
I am sure it will be appreciated in the House and elsewhere that the detailed organisation and scheduling of deliveries by the Defence Forces, in rapidly changing circumstances, was a most difficult and complex task which they performed with admirable efficiency. The fact that there were a few instances where deliveries were frustrated by operational problems was only to be expected.
I am also sure it will be appreciated that given the scale of the demand for petrol deliveries which existed country-wide at the time the emergency supply arrangements were introduced by the Defence Forces, there could be no absolute assurance of deliveries to any one station at a particular time.
While I regret very much the inconvenience caused in this instance I cannot accept that a case exists for the payment of compensation.
In response to direct inquiries of my Department by the party concerned, the circumstances in which the failure to make a delivery arose have since been explained to him and he fully understands the difficulties which obtained at the time in scheduling deliveries.
: This petrol station was taken over by somebody two years ago and has built up a trade in a farming area which is not near a town. It was listed as a designated station in the newspapers but got no petrol at all during the strike despite the fact that non-designated stations in the same area were given petrol. When the person made inquiries, as directed by the Department, to the oil company who normally supply petrol to him he was told that the Army had drawn his quota of petrol. Would the Minister explain how that person can convince people who saw on the newspapers that his was a designated station and who heard the statement made by the Minister's Department that all designated stations had got their first supply and were getting their second, that he got none? As a result of this he has lost almost his complete trade and will have to start from scratch again. Would the Minister agree that there was bungling by someone? Since the Minister's Department were responsible for the administration of it surely he should consider giving some compensation to the person concerned.
: I do not consider that compensation should be payable in such circumstances. I regret very much the difficulty with which this man was faced. As I have said, I think that when he made his own inquiries with the Department and the unfortunate combination of circumstances was explained to him he understood what had happened. However, much as I regret the inconvenience caused to this man, there would seem to have been very widespread misunderstanding particularly on the part of a number of Deputies on all sides of the House that the scheme was being operated for the benefit of garage owners. It was not. It was being operated for the benefit of the general public and garage owners were being used for that purpose. Of necessity, some garage owners suffered and some perhaps gained from it but the object of the exercise was not to help garage owners.
: Surely the Minister would agree that that statement does not come out too well when you remember that a number of garage owners in the area whose politics are well known got a supply of petrol and that petrol tanks with a supply of petrol passed along this road for garages on more than one occasion and one of the scheduled stations in his area was asked if they could take 10,000 gallons extra and they could not, while this man had a tank for 10,000 gallons and he could not get a drop of petrol. Surely there is something screwy about the whole thing. I do not know who told the Minister that the man was satisfied with the explanation he got. He got very little explanation from a very courteous civil servant following my question going down to the Minister but before that nobody wanted to talk to him. The Minister might have a look at the whole case because I am sure he will agree that the man was treated very badly. He should be compensated even though some of the people the Minister referred to did very well out of the petrol strike.
: I do not think that I can usefully add anything to what I have said except that firstly my information does not quite conform with that given by Deputy Tully in regard to this man's approach to my Department. Secondly, I refute fully any suggestion by Deputy Tully that distribution of petrol was being made on the basis of politics.
: Oh yes it was.
: Wait a moment, Deputy until I have finished. There were representations from Deputies on all sides of the House and Deputies on all sides of the House were complaining that petrol was being delivered on a political basis. The Deputy might consider talking to some of the Deputies opposite about friends of theirs.
(Interruptions.)
: Question No. 18.
(Interruptions.)
: The Minister will—
: And meet on all sides with Fianna Fáil.
: The Deputy heard what I said.