asked the Minister for the Environment if he will state in respect of each of the six vacant posts of chief fire officer as per his reply to Parliamentary Question No. 440 of 10 March 1981 the date on which each post became vacant.
Ceisteanna—Questions Oral Answers - Chief Fire Officer Posts.
5.
The dates on which five of the six posts of chief fire officer concerned became vacant were as follows:- Donegal — 28 July 1978; North Tipperary — 30 July 1978; Sligo-Leitrim — 20 May 1979; Limerick — 16 June 1979; Roscommon — 1 December 1979. Sanction issued to the creation of a post of chief fire officer in Monaghan on 19 April 1978 but the post there has not yet been filled. The vacancies in that post and the other posts which have been vacant since 1978 were advertised on a number of occasions by the Local Appointments Commissioners without success.
As a result of an agreement reached at conciliation on 18 April 1979 between management and the staff side on the restructuring of engineering and cognate professional grades, including the grade of chief fire officer, in the local authority service, it was agreed at the request of the staff side that recruitment of professional staff at the relevant levels would be suspended pending the assessment through local negotiations of each local authority's requirements under the new structure and its implementation. Since then negotiations have been continuing with the staff side on the question of the application of the agreement to the office of chief fire officer and the restructuring of that office, but agreement has not yet been reached on this issue with the staff side, differences existing between the different interests on the staff side.
As I indicated, however, in my statement in the House on 18 February last, I have decided that pending agreement with staff side interests on the restructuring of the office of chief fire officer, arrangements be put in train for the filling of the chief fire officer vacancies on the basis of the old conditions with an addendum that these conditions are at present being reviewed. The vacant posts have since been advertised by the Local Appointments Commissioners. While the posts have been vacant, arrangements for the discharge of the duties have been made by the local authorities.
On a point of order, I wish to protest at the manner in which, when we are faced with an evasive answer from the other side of the House on a matter of public importance, the next question is called when a Deputy is on his feet asking a supplementary designed to extract the truth.
As the Deputy is aware, the Chair decides on the number of supplementaries. I did not grant permission to the Deputy to ask a supplementary. I called the next question. I have been more than liberal in the number of supplementaries. I have allowed today, when one considers that we have had five questions answered in 25 minutes.
Five questions replied to but not answered. There is a difference.
On a point of order, I suggest that the discretion of the Chair in the granting of supplementaries has to be exercised judicially, and ought to be exercised in such a way that when there is a deliberate evasion by the Minister more latitude is given to the Opposition to probe the matter, and to move on to the next question when the Opposition are simply being obstructive. At present a kind of rule of thumb is being laid down and, regardless of what stage we are at or how evasive the other side of the House are being, we are blocked off and not allowed to pursue the matter.
Surely the Deputy is not suggesting that there has been a blocking off when we have had five questions answered in 25 minutes.
I was blocked off.
The Deputy is also aware of the fact that the Chair is not responsible for the replies given by Ministers. Deputy Boland.
Non-replies given by Ministers.
In view of the circumstances I wonder would it be possible for the Minister to repeat the first paragraph of his answer which was the only part of the answer which related to the question?
The whole answer related to the question.
I could not hear the dates.
It is a matter for the Minister.
The dates on which five of the six posts of chief fire officer concerned became vacant were as follows:- Donegal — 28 July 1978; North Tipperary — 30 July 1978; Sligo-Leitrim — 20 May 1979; Limerick — 16 June 1979; Roscommon — 1 December 1979. Sanction issued to the creation of a post of chief fire officer in Monaghan on 19 April 1978 but the post there has not yet been filled. The vacancies in that post and the other posts which have been vacant since 1978 were advertised on a number of occasions by the Local Appointments Commissioners without success.
Can the Minister explain why his reply now states that the vacancies were advertised and not filled when, in his reply on 10 March, he said it was known that these six posts were not filled on a permanent basis as at that date, which was 31 January last?
The Deputy should not quote in the course of a supplementary.
Is the Minister not aware that previously he informed the House that these posts were not filled pending completion of conciliation negotiations? He said the posts were being filled on the old terms, subject to review. Can the Minister explain why he is now giving a different explanation as to why these posts were not filled?
I am not giving a differrent explanation. If the Deputy had listened to the second part of the answer I gave earlier, he would have understood the situation. As the Deputy did not catch the first part of the answer correctly, he probably did not catch the second part either. I will go through it again.
As a result of an agreement reached at conciliation on 18 April 1979 between management and the staff side on the restructuring of engineering and cognate professional grades, including the grade of chief fire officer, in the local authority service, it was agreed at the request of the staff side that recruitment of professional staff at the relevant levels would be suspended pending the assessment through local negotiations of each local authority's requirements under the new structure and its implementation. Since then negotiations have been continuing with the staff side on the question of application of the agreement to the office of chief fire officer and the restructuring of that office, but agreement has not yet been reached on this issue with the staff side, differences existing between the different interests on the staff side. As I have indicated, we have now advertised the positions on the basis of the old conditions with the addendum that these conditions are at present being reviewed. The vacant posts have since been advertised by the Local Appointments Commissioners. While the posts have been vacant, arrangements for the discharge of the duties have been made by the local authorities.
Is the Minister now alleging that there was a conspiracy between the staff side and his Department in April 1979 not to fill these sanctioned posts?
There was no such thing as a conspiracy.
An agreement in private?
As part of the normal negotiations.
Is the Minister informing the House that as a result of these negotiations in private, these positions, some of which have been vacant for over two years, have not yet been filled including, significantly, the position in Donegal which appears to have been vacant since July 1978?
As I have already said, while the positions were vacant arrangements for the discharge of the duties involved have been made by the local authorities concerned.
I am not quite clear on this and I do not think my colleagues are either. Would the Minister inform the House in what way did he think the posts were filled in the interim period? Were they filled by people who were entitled to fill those posts? Was a junior official appointed to do the job? If the Minister says it was found possible to reach agreement in 1979 to fill the posts with the provision that negotiations were going on, why was it not possible to do that two or three years ago?
I will take the final part of the question first. When the Deputy was Minister for Local Government he must have been aware of the complicated staff negotiations.
No fire officer post was vacant for three years in my time.
Temporary arrangements were made in all the counties where there are vacancies for chief fire officers to have the duties of that post carried out by another officer or an officer of a local authority concerned. In Donegal and Monaghan chief assistant county engineers were appointed as acting chief fire officers. An assistant county engineer was appointed acting chief fire officer in Limerick. Executive engineers are acting for the chief fire officers in Roscommon and North Tipperary. In Sligo a second fire officer has been assigned to operational matters where the chief assistant county engineer has been given responsibility for fire prevention matters. Finally, in Leitrim, the county engineer has overall responsibility for fire services with a second fire officer reporting to him on operational matters, and a temporary assistant county engineer also provides assistance.
Can the Minister say what qualifications or experience these people have of problems relating to fire?
The Deputy will be aware that it is the engineers in most counties that act in the role of fire officer and, as I have read out, they are all engineers who are doing this work.
What specialised training——
What specialised training or experience do they have in regard to fire matters? That is the question I have asked, and for the fifth time the Minister has evaded answering.