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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Jul 1981

Vol. 329 No. 7

Financial Resolutions, 1981. - Dublin Riots: Statement by the Minister for Justice

Thank you, Sir, for the opportunity of making this statement to the House. Members on all sides of the House will have made their own observations of the extremely serious riots which took place in the vicinity of the British Embassy on Saturday last. The House no doubt will wish to join me in strongly censuring all those among the marchers — constituting a substantial minority — who clearly set out, from the very beginning, to cause serious personal injuries to members of the Garda Síochána and extensive damage to public and private property.

For the benefit of the House I would like to recall the events of last Saturday.

As I have said it is clear beyond doubt that many of those taking part had come prepared to carry out serious attacks on the Garda. This is underlined by the fact that the Garda are now aware that passengers on some of the buses from the North actually purchased pick-axe handles in at least one town on their way. The violence had started long before the marchers reached the vicinity of the British Embassy. Even in the very early stages of the march, some of the marchers threw stones at or otherwise assaulted gardai. For instance, outside Leinster House shortly after the march moved off a garda was struck on the head with a heavy stick or pole, as a result of which he had to receive hospital treatment.

Many of the marchers were seen to be carrying weapons such as pick-axe handles, either full length or half length, some of them disguised as flagpoles. As the march proceeded through the Balls-bridge area, all the bollards in the centre of the road were ripped apart and some of the debris was carried on by the marchers for use in the subsequent assault on gardai in the vicinity of the British Embassy. I emphasise these points not only to illustrate the intentions of those concerned but to question the claims that only those at the very front of the march knew anything about the violence until the Garda made the baton charge.

When the march reached the Garda barrier at the junction of Simmonscourt Road and Merrion Road a small deputation was allowed through the barrier on asking to be permitted to hand in a letter at the British Embassy. I am informed that when the Embassy door was opened an attempt was made by some members of the deputation to rush into the Embassy, with one of their members saying: "We're in, lie down". I think it right to balance that by saying that I am also informed that when another member of the deputation, whose name is well known in another sphere, saw what was happening, he informed the Garda that he wanted to dissociate himself from such activity, and that he considered that he had been "used".

A substantial number of the marchers were at this stage involved in a violent attack on members of the Garda. The attackers were using bricks, bottles, petrol bombs, golf balls, pick-axe handles and a variety of poles, some with steel-pointed tops. The bricks were obtained from nearby garden walls, and sledge-hammers that had been used to break down the walls were subsequently found by the Garda. Two cars were also removed from the gardens of houses and set on fire and six other cars were severely damaged. Additionally, I am informed by the Garda authorities that a white powder which burns the skin and which is similar to a substance which has been used in attacks on policemen in Belfast was used by some of Saturday's demonstrators.

The one redeeming feature was the restraint, forbearance and courage shown by the Garda in the face of sustained and unprovoked attacks of the most vicious character. The House will join me in paying them a special tribute for their performance. Despite their restraint, the attacks continued for 25 minutes during which time almost 150 gardaí suffered injuries requiring hospital treatment. It is a matter of great concern to the Government that any garda or any civilians should have been injured.

From what I have said I think there can remain little doubt as to what at least a significant section of the demonstrators had planned. The use of violence on this scale against the Garda was clearly designed to break through the Garda cordon and to enable those concerned to march on to the British Embassy. What a group who had behaved in that way to the Garda Síochána intended to do — and what they would, if allowed, have done — to the Embassy does not need to be spelled out.

Various suggestions have been made that the demonstration planned for next Saturday should be banned. The Government have carefully considered the various factors involved and have decided at this stage not to take this course. The Government's decision is based on a desire to reduce, not increase, tension, to uphold the right of citizens to protest peacefully, while at the same time taking every step open to them to protect the general public. Some criticism may be levelled at the Government for insisting, despite last Saturday's violence, on defending the right of the citizen to protest. I can understand that criticism but cannot agree with it. However the right to protest is not an unconditional one, nor can it be superior to the right of citizens at large not to be subjected to serious street violence. The right to protest is conditional on it being peaceful, and a grave responsibility lies on protest organisers to ensure either that their protest is peaceful or else is not held at all.

Events not only here but in many cities in many other countries force us to recognise that, if a significant sector of a crowd is bent on violence, a great deal of destruction can take place. I must there-fore now appeal to members of the public who wish to register their views by way of peaceful protest to think very carefully before they again join protest marches such as that mounted last Saturday.

The Garda accept, as I do, that some innocent people can be caught up in a baton charge and that is why they issued repeated warnings over loud-hailers on Saturday. I think it is better that everybody should understand that a baton charge, although recognised everywhere to be both necessary in certain circumstances and effective in its objective, is of its very nature not something that can readily discriminate between those who are leading the violence and others who may be passive or even innocent. I hope therefore that for their own sake innocent people, if there should be a recurrence, will not make things more difficult for the Garda and more risky for themselves by remaining at the scene after acts of violence have been committed, should this happen again. The central point is that the Garda are there, on duty, protecting us and our rights. It is they who are being subjected to assault. They are entitled to our support.

I do accept, as the Garda do, that journalists have a particular problem in that their duty may require them to be in a danger area. On this point, I think it right to read to the House the text of a letter I have sent to the National Union of Journalists:

I am writing to you with reference to the meeting I had on Monday with a deputation from your Union to discuss matters arising out of the riotous behaviour in the vicinity of the British Embassy on Saturday, 18th July.

You mentioned in the course of the discussion that a number of Dublin-based journalists, members of your Union, who were on duty covering the march to the Embassy, were assaulted, attacked or harassed by members of the Garda Síochána. I wish to reiterate the assurance which I gave you at the meeting, and which I understand had separately been given by Garda Headquarters, that any specific complaints your members wish to make in relation to those allegations will be fully investigated by the Garda authorities.

It is hardly necessary to say that I accept that the exercise by your members of their role to report the news in an objective way is essential to the well-being of a democratic society and I would deplore anything that would prevent the Press from carrying out that role.

In a situation such as that which developed last Saturday it is clear that some innocent bystanders, and some members of the Press, were at risk of being injured and, given the sustained level of unprovoked attacks on members of the Gardaí, the Force themselves would be the first to accept that a few members — there were almost 2,000 on duty — possibly did in the heat of the moment go beyond what was necessary. If it is said from a responsible source that some journalists were hit, the Garda authorities are prepared to accept that as being a regrettable fact. I have asked the Commissioner to ensure that members of the Force on duty on such occasions will again be made aware of the need for members of the Press to be facilitated in carrying out their work consonant with the needs of security.

What may not be widely appreciated, because fortunately baton charges are rare in our society, is that the purpose of a baton charge (which is employed only as a last resort) is to clear the street of all persons, and in such a situation the likelihood of Gardaí engaged in this duty being in a position to discriminate in respect of particular individuals is greatly diminished. I therefore now repeat the invitation that I put to you orally that if you have any suggestions as to how these difficulties may be overcome for the future they will be very fully considered.

The complaint has been made that members of the Garda Síochána were not wearing numbers on their tunics. I believe that that complaint is based on a misunderstanding. Very many of the Gardaí on duty in the vicinity of the Embassy were drawn from various parts of the country and they do not have numbers on their tunics. (Outside Dublin, the only Gardaí who have numbers are those in Cork City). Apart from that, epaulettes were torn from some Garda uniforms by the protestors in Saturday's demonstration.

I should add that the Government are willing to make arrangements for special methods of identification of journalists assigned by the Irish and foreign press to cover such events. This offer has been conveyed to the NUJ.

Another important point which I think the House and the public have a right to know about is what the costs of operations of this kind can be. The costs of the malicious damage cannot be estimated for some time but clearly they are enormous. What I would emphasise is that the policing of last Saturday's march in Dublin will cost the Irish taxpayer something of the order of £310,000 in Garda overtime, subsistence allowance, etc.

Finally, I would stress that the Government recognise that there is in international law an absolute obligation on the State to protect the premises of foreign missions against intrusion or damage and further recognise their obligation to protect society from the commission of criminal acts and from public disorder. I undertake that the Government will take such steps as the exigencies of the situation may require to fulfil these obligations.

The Chair would now like to advise the House that, in accordance with Standing Orders, there may be but one other speaker who is nominated by the Opposition party.

I wish to challenge that because I understood this morning——

The Deputy is very much in disorder. You may not challenge the statement which is in accordance with Standing Orders. I ask you to give way to Deputy Collins. Please do not continue to be disorderly.

The Government side——

You are being disorderly. I ask you to resume your seat and allow Deputy Collins to proceed in accordance with Standing Orders.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Kemmy, I must advise you that Standing Orders do not permit you to speak at this stage. Please resume your seat and allow Deputy Collins to proceed.

On a point of order, Standing Orders provide as you state. They also provide that, by agreement, the House can act otherwise. Deputy Kemmy is correct in saying that we sought the agreement of the Opposition to enable ten minutes to be set aside for Independents to speak. I still hope that proposal of ours will be accepted.

On a further point of order, to clarify this point, unfortunately Deputy Blaney is not here, but is it true in the new circumstances he was given an undertaking by the Leader of the Opposition that he would be agreeable to the extension to the Independent group of the rights of the existing party groups in respect of issues of this kind?

I had a discussion with Deputy Blaney on behalf of the Independents and I undertook to enter into discussions with the Government and the Independents to see what arrangements could be made to give Independents a fair show in the House. I had only a brief meeting with Deputy Blaney and my understanding is that we are to talk again about it. As of now, there is no arrangement but in principle this side of the House is certainly willing to have a discussion as to how this matter can be amicably arranged.

I do not wish to speak in the debate but I defend the right of any person who is elected to this House to speak. Did I understand the Taoiseach to say that the Government have no objection to allowing Deputy Kemmy to speak and that the objections to him speaking come from Fianna Fáil?

Standing Order No. 38 says that a further statement may be allowed "at the discretion of the Ceann Comhairle from a spokesman nominated by a Party in Opposition." I did not make these Standing Orders, they are here for the benefit of the Members. If they wish to have them changed they will have to raise the matter with the Committee on Procedures and Privileges.

Fair play and democracy should be shown to all Members of the House. I am only asking for five minutes.

Is it a fact that the Taoiseach has held that the Standing Order can be overridden? Could we have the agreement of the Opposition in this matter? I, incidentally, do not wish to speak.

I want only five minutes.

Standing Orders are there. If you want a debate you would have to get agreement for that.

Commonsense has its place in the House. Do not be overawed by Standing Orders.

Every other Deputy would then have the right to speak. We must abide by Standing Orders.

Does the Taoiseach support the Chair?

Deputy Kemmy, I am the last person to deny you your rights or deny the rights of any Independent but I operate these Standing Orders with the co-operation of the Members of the House. I did not make them. There is a way of having them changed, at a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. You could have a debate by agreement of all the Members, in which case every Deputy, not just Independents, would be entitled to speak.

Agreement was reached between the parties in respect of a statement which I might have made this morning but decided not to make, that ten minutes would be allowed for the Independents. It has not been an open debate. That agreement was reached but that debate did not take place. I proposed a similar agreement in respect of this statement but that has not been agreed to by the Opposition. If they do not agree to it, that ends the matter. I have to accept your ruling on the matter. I regret the Opposition's attitude.

I got no notification of that. If you want it done, you will have to give notice of it and we could have a motion to that effect. I shall be glad to facilitate all the Members on that.

As far as I am aware, there was no agreement whatsoever about the statement by the Minister for Justice. We will abide by the rules of order. If the rules of procedure are not adhered to then every one of our 78 Deputies will demand the right to speak. I am sorry to have to say this, the behaviour of the Taoiseach in this matter is disgraceful in not upholding the order of the House and supporting the Chair.

That is what the Taoiseach is for.

(Interruptions.)

I hope we will not have disorderly conduct in the House. I appeal to you all to behave in a manner befitting this House. The Government chose to deal with this matter by means of a statement and when they do that we are all bound by Standing Order No.38. It is important that we know this. If the Government choose to deal with the matter by any other means — for example, by motion — they should give notice and we could have a debate on it.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Standing Order provides that one Member nominated by the Opposition party may make a statement. Am I not right in thinking that, by agreement, the House can do virtually what it likes? Am I not correct in thinking that, if the House chose on this occasion, pending the matter being regularised by the changing of its Standing Orders, to allow one Member nominated by the Independents to make a short statement, that would be in order and would be in keeping with the order of the House.

Any change in Standing Orders would require notice. That is the situation.

Does the Taoiseach want to support the Chair?

I take it that the House is agreeing that Standing Orders must be obeyed. No wonder I am leaving the House.

I think Deputy Kemmy will agree that Standing Orders must be obeyed.

I would, if that made commonsense.

If we do not obey Standing Orders, there will be no order in this House.

The Ceann Comhairle should be supported by the Taoiseach.

I call Deputy G. Collins.

We deplore the violence of the events of last weekend and regret very much indeed that so many people were injured and that so much property was destroyed or damaged. We regret the great distress caused to many ordinary citizens who were not involved in the protest march, and those who engaged in this violence did no good to their cause. We owe a deep debt of gratitude to the gardaí for their great efforts in protecting life and property, despite continuous vicious attacks on them.

Now that the Government have decided not to ban the proposed march this weekend, they must ensure that the Garda have everything they need in the way of equipment, facilities and manpower to deal with any situation which might arise. It is the duty of the Garda to take all lawful means at their disposal to protect life and property and it is the senior officer on the ground who has the responsibility of deciding on the methods to be used to deal with the situation as it develops.

The Garda should know that they have our trust and confidence in dealing with any situation which might arise, and of so doing in a fair, reasonable and balanced way, despite any provocation from any individual or group. It is the responsibility of the Government to ensure that all resources necessary are given to the Garda, and we appeal to those involved in protesting to respect the rights of the ordinary citizens and their property and to respect the authority of the Garda Síochána.

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