Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 1981

Vol. 330 No. 10

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 3, 4, 5, 12, 13 (resumed), 14, 15 and 16. By agreement, proceedings on Committee Stage of the Finance (No. 2) Bill, if not previously concluded, will be brought to a conclusion at 6.20 p.m. today. The question to be put from the Chair to conclude the proceedings on Committee Stage of the Finance (No. 2) Bill shall be:

That all amendments set down by the Minister for Finance and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill, the Bill, as amended, is hereby agreed to and as amended, is reported to the House.

Private Members' Business, item No. 23, will be resumed immediately on conclusion of the proceedings on the Finance (No. 2) Bill.

Mr. Haughey

On the Order of Busienss, will the Taoiseach have any further statement to make to the House on the significance of his Summit talks with the British Prime Minister in the light of her statement yesterday in the House of Commons that Northern Ireland is as much a part of the United Kingdom as the Borough of Finchley, and that the problem is purely an internal matter for the United Kingdom Government and Parliament?

The Taoiseach

I do not wish to make any further statement on the talks, I note, however, as many people have noted, that the British Prime Minister equated, in her statement yesterday, the words "require" and "will come about only if", using one as meaning the same as the other, thereby making nonsense of the Leader of the Opposition's attempt to distinguish between them.

Mr. Haughey

The Borough of Finchley.

The Taoiseach

If I may make a brief statement——

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

I have a question to put on the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, Deputy.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

On items Nos. 3, 4 and 5, as ordered by the Taoiseach, could he say in what circumstances are such amendments introduced, or has there been a precedent for this type of introduction before the House — with particular reference to item No. 3?

The Taoiseach

That is a point to be raised when these matters are brought before the House in a few moments.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

I am sorry?

The Taoiseach

That is a point to be raised when these matters are brought before the House. They will come before the House in a moment or two.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

Surely one is entitled to some notice of the amendment to the Value-Added Tax Act of 1972, for example? Does one not now get any prior notice of that until it is placed before the House on the Order Paper and then ordered by the Taoiseach? Is there a precedent for that type of operation? Is it normal that Acts are amended in this way, or will be in future?

The Taoiseach

If the Minister has any points to raise on that, it will come up in a moment or two, when the item comes before the House.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

Deputy.

The Taoiseach

That does not arise on the Order of Business. It arises on the issue itself.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

I am raising it on the Order of Business.

Mr. Haughey

The House is dealing with the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Financial Resolutions will come before the House in the ordinary way. If the Deputy has any complaint to make he can make it when they come up.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

Here we have a motion amending the Value-Added Tax Act of 1972. Is there a precedent for this type of motion on the Order Paper, or is it a new departure?

The Taoiseach

That is perfectly normal, under paragraph 182 of the Dáil Standing Orders. The Committee Stage of the Finance Bill cannot commence until the motions approving the various charges are approved by the Dáil. That is why they are there.

Mr. Haughey

These are new charges.

The Taoiseach

That is a matter which the Deputy can take up further, if he wishes, when they are raised.

Mr. Leyden

On the Order of Business, has the Taoiseach any proposal to bring a Bill before this House to provide for fair car insurance for young people, as promised in the Fine Gael election programme?

The Taoiseach

As the House is, I expect, aware, a committee has been established to examine this matter and is sitting at the moment.

Mr. Leyden

Is the Taoiseach aware that a committee sat on this issue before and that all the details are before the Government? The Government are using delaying tactics to ensure that they will not implement the provision in their manifesto which they put before——

Mr. P. Barry

That is disgraceful, dealing with honourable people.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Leyden, I permitted a question on that subject, but there is no provision for a speech.

The Taoiseach

It is precisely because of the previous committee's report that it is necessary to examine the matter further, in order to get some action on it.

Miss Harney

In view of the great urgency and the public concern generated as a result of the announcement of the proposed closure of the Clondalkin Paper Mills, what action is the Government taking to save the jobs of the 417 employees in that concern?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Miss Harney

If it does not arise on the Order of Business, may I give notice that Deputy Seán Walsh and I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment this evening?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Sherlock

Is it the intention of the Government to bring forward legislation to reduce the age of majority to 18 years in view of the fact that young people are now deprived of their lawful right to purchase their homes?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

I want to state that on the motion to nominate the new Comptroller and Auditor General the Leader of the Opposition raised in the House yesterday the question of the circulation of the prepared text. It is incorrect to state, as the Leader of the Opposition did, that it is customary to circulate generally brief and uncontroversial statements of this kind. As a matter of courtesy, however, a copy of such statements may be sent to the Leader of the Opposition. In this instance, I instructed that a copy of the statement be handed to a member of the staff of the Leader of the Opposition last Friday morning. In the House yesterday, I refrained from comment until I had established that it had in fact been personally delivered to a member of the staff on Friday morning. I feel I should now make this clear lest a contrary impression prevail.

Mr. Haughey

The Taoiseach has made an ex parte statement on this matter. I intended to let it rest but as the Taoiseach has raised the matter——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

Wait for it.

Mr. Haughey

I want to make a categoric statement to the House that no statement of the sort the Taoiseach made in the House here yesterday, in dealing with the appointment of the Comptroller and Auditor General, was delivered to or received by me. However, I want to submit——

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Blame the civil servants again.

Mr. Haughey

I am not blaming anybody. I am making a statement that this document was not delivered to or received by me. The only document I received in this connection was a copy of a letter addressed by the Taoiseach to you indicating that Mr. MacGearailt had resigned. The point I raised here yesterday was that it is a well-established precedent of this House that when a Taoiseach or a Minister of the Government reads from a prepared statement a copy of that prepared statement is distributed to this side of the House by the staff of the House. That precedent was not followed by the Taoiseach yesterday.

I happen to have from the Dáil reporters the report of the exchange between the Taoiseach and myself on this matter yesterday. With your permission, as the Taoiseach has raised it, I propose to read from this report which is as follows:

Mr. Haughey: I am sorry to interrupt the Taoiseach. The Taoiseach quite rightly is reading from a prepared text. The tradition in this House is that we should be given a copy of the prepared text.

By way of reply the Taoiseach said:

I do not accept that. This is a case in which it is not normal to circulate a short script like this. The Deputy is incorrect.

Then we had an interjection from Mr. Fitzpatrick (Cavan-Monaghan) the legal adviser.

Mr. E. Collins

On a point of order, Deputy Fitzpatrick is a Minister and should be so addressed.

Mr. Haughey

Deputy Fitzpatrick, Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, from Cavan-Monaghan said:

There are many precedents for not circulating short statements.

The Taoiseach replied:

Therefore the Deputy is incorrect and I suggest he should allow the business of the House to continue.

The Taoiseach, reading from his own statement, in the last paragraph had to say this to the House:

In accordance with precedent I have given the Leader of the Opposition an advance copy

While a couple of sentences before that he sought to indicate that there was no such precedent. I leave the matter rest.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

This blatant attempt by the Leader of the Opposition to obfuscate this issue will not succeed. The question he raised, as was clear from what he read out, was the circulation of the statement to the House. That is not the practice. It is the practice, and there is a precedent for it which I followed, to send a copy to him. That is what was said in the statement that I had done. The Leader of the Opposition sought to mislead me into thinking he had not received it. I did not wish to contradict him until I had checked the fact that it was delivered by hand to a lady in his office on Friday morning. He should not try to mislead the House on that.

Mr. Haughey

I suggest that this is de minimis but I want to point out to the House that it was the Taoiseach who raised this matter this morning. It was the Taoiseach who brought this up this morning.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

Another legal adviser.

Mr. Haughey

Yesterday, when I brought the matter up in the House——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Haughey

I propose to be heard even if the Government keep barracking all day. Yesterday, when I brought the matter up in the House——

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Leader of the Opposition denied in the House that he got an advance copy but it is on the record that he got the advance copy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Haughey

Yesterday afternoon, when I raised the matter, I was not aware that the Taoiseach purported to have sent me a copy of his statement nor that he suggested I had received it. I suggest that was not the issue. The issue I was dealing with was a matter of precedent in this House. When a Minister or a Taoiseach gets up to read from a prepared text, that prepared text, as long as I am in this House, has been given to the other side of the House. That is a well-established precedent in the House and it was from that precedent that the Taoiseach departed yesterday. I am prepared to leave the matter rest if the Taoiseach is but if not we will go on.

The Taoiseach

I see no point in continuing it. Now that we have established that the Leader of the Opposition sought to mislead the House about having received a copy from me on Friday, I am happy.

Mr. Kelly

May I suggest, as a point of order, that it would be a good idea if you, as Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, initiated a short discussion to lay down guidelines about these piffling matters so that we would not have this hopping and popping which occupies what is supposed to be valuable time.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Kelly

In the Twentieth Dáil the Taoiseach hardly ever introduced the Order of Business without Deputy Lynch making a headline over the——

An Ceann Comhairle

For the Minister's information and for the benefit of the House I am awaiting arrangements for the first meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. Haughey

I have said on a number of occasions this morning that I was prepared to let this minor matter rest but the Taoiseach has once again said that I attempted to mislead the House. I object to that and I believe that, in all fairness, the Taoiseach should withdraw it. When I was engaged in raising this point with him yesterday I was not aware of any suggestion that a copy of the statement had been delivered to my office. I was not dealing with that aspect of it at all.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): It was in the script.

Mr. Haughey

I am dealing with the very important question of the Taoiseach's suggestion that I attempted to mislead the House. That is a matter of some significance. It is more important than the circulation of documents. When the Taoiseach got up to read his statement I merely interjected on a point of precedent, that he would give me there and then, as always happens in the House, a copy of the prepared text from which he was reading. I was only dealing with the traditions of this Chamber. I was not adverting in any way to the receipt in my office of a statement. I was not aware that that was suggested and I had no knowledge of it. I made no attempt to mislead this House. I merely asked that precedent be followed in giving me a copy of a prepared statement from which a Taoiseach or a Minister is reading. I would be grateful if the Taoiseach would withdraw the suggestion that I attempted to mislead the House.

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy had no knowledge of what was received in his office I cannot be responsible for that. The Deputy asked me twice to read out the section of my statement in which I said I had sent a copy to his office. He sought to mislead the House at that point by suggesting he had not received it.

(Interruptions.)