During the discussion on this section of the Bill a number of Deputies raised specific points in relation to the Clondalkin Paper Mills. The 1972 Fóir Teoranta Act spells out clearly the criteria under which industrial concerns would qualify for financial assistance. The board of Fóir Teoranta interpret those criteria as flexibly as possible and arrive at their own decision. The Act introduced in 1972 deliberately — and rightly, in my view — bestowed complete independence on the board so that an independent and objective assessment of the needs of firms in financial difficulties could be carried out free from any outside interference and pressure. It is vitally important that the objectivity and independence of Fóir Teoranta be preserved. It is not open to the Minister, therefore, to interfere in any way with Fóir Teoranta's examination of any particular case. That position has remained unchanged since 1972 and has been honoured by all Ministers for Finance, as the previous Minister for Finance will readily concede. My colleague, Deputy B. Desmond, dealt at some length with the position in relation to the Clondalkin Paper Mills. I understand that Fóir Teoranta were approached by the company for the first time only quite recently. An outline package involving a considerable amount of money has been put to Fóir Teoranta and discussions are proceeding on this with the Clondalkin group.
Fóir Teoranta (Amendment) Bill, 1981: Committee Stage (Resumed).
The Minister of State is right. The issue of Clondalkin Paper Mills was raised by some of my colleagues. Thanks to their efforts, at least a meeting was obtained with the Minister for Industry and Energy while we were in discussion in the House. I am taken aback by the terminology used by the Minister of State when he stands behind the independence of Fóir Teoranta. We all readily accept how important it is that Fóir Teoranta's independence be preserved. However, it is extremely unusual for the Minister of State a member of, as I described before, a once proud Labour Party, to come into the House and stand behind what he maintains is the independence of Fóir Teoranta.
The Minister of State goes on to express his hopes about the package. I sincerely hope that Clondalkin Paper Mills is preserved. It is important to preserve the number of jobs there and the indigenous type of industry there. This is the type of factory and these are the type of jobs the survival of which we need to ensure. I am sure that my colleagues will have a lot more to say about this.
I am surprised that the Minister of State should come here and say that he and his colleagues can do nothing on behalf of Clondalkin or anything else. There is much they can do if the will is there. In my experience Fóir Teoranta have been admirable but then, of course, I never expected them to do the impossible. As a Minister and as a Deputy in Opposition, it has been my experience that the people in Fóir Teoranta did as much as possible in any difficult situation. I remember reading some comments made by my colleagues when the 1975 Bill was going through this House, when the borrowing power of the company was being extended. At that time Deputy Colley pointed out the necessity for greater co-operation and co-ordination between Fóir Teoranta and the other State agencies and during our time in Government such co-operation was developed and encouraged.
Whatever Minister is holding the portfolio for the time being has a duty to ensure that all State agencies do their utmost to endeavour to save jobs. I am surprised the Minister of State should come here and defend the stand of his leader. Until efforts were made by my colleagues when the Bill was being discussed in this House the Minister for Industry and Energy was most reluctant to meet the workers. However, thanks to the comments of Deputy Harney and Deputy Walsh, he met them eventually. In fact, the Minister of State was speaking on section 2 while the meeting was in progress.
In his reply on Second Stage, Deputy B. Desmond, Minister of State, said he was particularly concerned there was no trade union representative on the board of Fóir Teoranta. I suggested to him at the time that if he wished to adopt our amendment on Committee Stage he was quite welcome to do so and would have my co-operation. I offer the Minister present that facility. It means a slight amendment of one section of the original Act of 1972 which established Fóir Teoranta but it would be a very simple amendment. Even at this late stage if the Minister present wishes to move such an amendment I will facilitate him.
In his reply on Second Stage, and so far on Committee Stage, Deputy Desmond did not answer a question I raised when the Bill was put before the House. I asked him if he was aware of the contents of a letter from the ESB to Fóir Teoranta and other State bodies informing them that in future in the event of a receiver being appointed to a company by any of those agencies the ESB wanted it made clear that if money was due to them they would have to be paid or an undertaking would have to be given by the receiver that the amount due would be paid before power would be reconnected. It was strange that a State agency under the aegis of the Minister for Industry and Energy, the leader of the Labour Party, should issue such a toughly-worded letter so soon after his advent to office. It was a hardline letter written by the ESB, but Deputy Desmond did not refer to it or reply to my question. Obviously he was too embarrassed. He knows full well that the letter was probably issued without the Minister's consent. However, the Minister for Industry and Energy has a responsibility to this House and, above all, to the people in industry. I have no doubt the Minister will say this has been the practice of the ESB in the past. That may have been the case at a time when the ESB were not asked to facilitate people whose jobs were put in jeopardy, but prior to this I never saw such a toughly-worded letter from them. A copy of the letter in question was sent to the Department of Industry and Energy. I wish to know if that letter has been withdrawn or if the language has been modified? Will we have a situation that where a company is in difficulty and where a receiver is appointed the first hurdle that must be overcome is meeting the ESB charges? I accept completely that the ESB have a role to play and that they must fight for their own survival as an economic enterprise. But if that hardline approach is pursued by them, and if this is allowed by the Government, it will be more difficult in future to save jobs.
I am sure some of my colleagues present have comments to make on Clondalkin. I omitted to mention Deputy Lenihan when I spoke of the other Deputies who were involved in this matter. He was involved with Deputy Harney and Deputy Walsh in meeting the workers concerned and because of their efforts here during discussion of the Bill they were able to force the Minister for Industry and Energy to meet the workers. I hope that as a result of their efforts a package will be put together. I do not think it was necessary for the Minister of State to come here to apologise for the independence for Fóir Teoranta. We are telling the Government they have responsibility for governing and it is their duty and responsibility also to save jobs in Clondalkin. We are asking them to do that. We are doing everything we can to help them, but if they do not we will continue to remind them of how they neglected their obligations. The Minister for Industry and Energy had to be hunted and run to ground before he would agree to meet the workers.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on Committee Stage of this Bill. As Deputy Fitzgerald indicated, one of the concerns we have regarding the operations of Fóir Teoranta will be highlighted by the manner in which they deal with the problem relating to the closure or continuation of Clondalkin Paper Mills. I have asked the Minister for Industry and Energy, the Minister of State and Deputy B. Desmond to give a commitment that Fóir Teoranta and all the Government agencies will do everything possible to save this industry. To date I have not received a commitment on this. The package the Minister referred to last week is totally inadequate for the survival of the Clondalkin Paper Mills. One of the problems, which arises in other cases also, is that when industries like this are in difficulties they are pushed around from one Government agency to another. When this industry approached the Government they were referred to the IDA and told it was the Government agency which could help them. I know the IDA have a rescue section. There may be some conflict between this and the one operated by Fóir Teoranta.
Last week Deputy B. Desmond criticised the management of Clondalkin for not going to Fóir Teoranta, despite the fact that Deputy Kelly had referred them to the IDA. The rescue package put forward by the IDA on 21 October, if accepted, will do nothing more than delay the closure for another six or eight months. If Clondalkin accept this package they will get £1½ million after they spend a further £2 million. If they close in 1983 they will be £500,000 worse off in cash terms without any further trading losses. The Minister should bear in mind the contribution this mill is making to the State. If it is looked at in purely economic terms it makes great sense to continue it. The workforce are contributing, between PAYE, PRSI and the new hydrocarbon tax, £2 million to the State. If the workers, 470 in all, are to go on unemployment benefit they would get about £2 million from the State. In terms of the balance of payments we would be about £26 million worse off if the mill closes.
Today I asked the Minister for Social Welfare how many people were unemployed in the Clondalkin area. The answer was 872 people. If we add a further 470, that would be a very big unemployment rate in a new growing town in County Dublin. I do not ask the Minister, the IDA or Fóir Teoranta to back a lame duck — an industry which will eventually have to close. The survey referred to by Deputy B. Desmond last week by independent consultants indicated that in the long-term the paper mill will be viable. There are problems as a result of energy costs. The recent ESB charges did not help. In other countries groups such as the Clondalkin Paper Mills are subsidised by Governments. Given that this is the last manufacturer of fine paper in Ireland and that we are an island country, this is a strategic industry and one we should not let go of.
When I raised this issue on the Adjournment Deputy O'Malley said that when the chipboard factory in Scarriff was about to close our party invested heavily from State funds to make sure it continued in operation. At times like this there are many agencies involved and it is hard for a company to deal with the Government when there are many Ministers involved. The IDA are responsible to one Minister and Fóir Teoranta to another. One can fall between two stools and this seems to be what is happening to Clondalkin Paper Mills. The Minister should give a commitment that a viable package will be found to make sure jobs are not lost. In war time where would we get our supply of paper if this industry goes?
I realise that it is a short time in which to find a package. However, the Government were aware of the difficulties. The leader of our party, Deputy Haughey, Deputy Walsh and I met the workers last week. They were very concerned that in two weeks' time they will be out of a job. I ask the Minister to give the necessary funds to the liquidator to allow him to continue the operation in Clondalkin until such time as a package is found. It may take some months to do this but I should not like if in two weeks' time it is a fait accomplait and too late to do anything. It will soon be 6 December and too late to talk about packages. There will be no jobs for the unfortunate workers. Perhaps the Minister will give a commitment on that.
We are in a difficult situation and in a recession and many people, particularly young people, are looking for jobs. Would the Government consider subsidising the energy bill of plants such as the Clondalkin Paper Mills, given the rising costs of energy to industry? If this is not done it will be impossible for industry to compete with outside firms whose energy costs are subsidised. Would the Minister consider entering into negotiations with ESB and others to make sure users of energy are subsidised and do not suffer competitively as a result of high energy costs.
In reply to points raised by Deputy Fitzgerald there is co-operation and co-ordination between all State agencies. Fóir Teoranta are a member of a committee which is under the aegis of the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism. Trade union membership of the board is not relevent to this section but the Minister will keep the composition of the board under review. He does not propose at this stage to increase the size of the board and is satisfied it is adequate to carry out its duties. The suggestion that there should be union representation on the board will be borne in mind.
The actions of the ESB are a matter for the board and for the Minister for Industry and Energy. I would be reluctant to comment on them. I am concerned about Clondalkin Paper Mills and hope that a rescue package will be arrived at. I hope Fóir Teoranta will be able to do whatever is required to save the jobs there. However, as I said, in the light of the discussions and investigations being carried on by Fóir Teoranta, it would be wrong for any Minister to bring pressure to bear on them. They are an independent body and it is generally agreed that they have done an excellent job and helped to save many industries. A discussion on the paper mill is important and trying to save jobs in a situation such as this is dear to our hearts. However, we cannot at this time bring pressure to bear on Fóir Teoranta to do or not to do any specific thing.
I hope and I have been assured that every effort will be made to reach some kind of arrangement for the saving of the jobs in Clondalkin. I am not in a position to say that Fóir Teoranta will intervene but they are very well aware of the circumstances, and discussions at present are going on with them. I feel that Fóir Teoranta have done everything possible to save the situation.
Like the other speakers, I welcome the opportunity of speaking on Committee Stage of this Fóir Teoranta Bill. I am pleased to hear from the Minister that discussions and negotiations are continuing regarding Clondalkin Paper Mills. I remind the Minister of State and the House that recently on the announcement regarding the proposed closure of Clondalkin Paper Mills a meeting was arranged immediately between the management of Clondalkin Paper Mills and the Minister of State at the Department of Energy, Deputy E. Collins. Following that meeting an announcement was made by the Minister of State that a programme was being worked out to ensure the continued operation of the paper mills and to save the jobs of the 480 employees. That was quite a few weeks ago.
As a representative for the area and a former industrial worker I am somewhat disappointed that no real progress has been made. We have heard a great deal about meetings and so on, but it is what happens at meetings and what progress is being made that matter. I spoke on this matter when it was raised on the Adjournment of the House recently and on that occasion I stated — this applies to all Governments — that from time to time we hear announcements about the setting-up of new industries which will employ 50, 100, 200 people. In Clondalkin we have an established industry, a national industry, which has proved its worth down the years. At present 480 workers are employed in this paper mill. Admittedly in the early thirties the industry had some problems but it reopened in 1936 and has continued to operate with reasonable success ever since. Surely in a situation like this it must be possible for the Government to work out some kind of package to ensure the continued operation of this mill. It is the only fine paper mill left in the country and paper for the Order Paper and all other documents used in this House is manufactured in Clondalkin Paper Mills. Surely none of us Members of this House would like to see paper having to be imported for use here. On that basis alone it is worth while to ensure that Clondalkin Paper Mills will not close.
Clondalkin is a new town with a projected population of 125,000 and I am quite certain that when consideration was given to planning and redevelopment there, much thought was given to employment in this mill. If Clondalkin Paper Mills are to close what will the position be for this new town? On this basis I make a special appeal to the Minister.
The Minister of State, Deputy Bermingham, represents a constituency which has many industries and from time to time they have had many problems. I ask him here tonight to bring our views expressed here to the Minister for Energy, who is the leader of his party, to ensure that an acceptable package will be worked out which in turn will ensure that Clondalkin Paper Mills will not close.
Some time ago an industry or a number of industries in Co. Leitrim were facing a problem. The then Government kept these industries in being by offering special help and indemnifying the liquidator. According to the announcement, Clondalkin Paper Mills are due to close some time in December in the event of the Government not having worked out an acceptable package with the management of the company. Surely it must be possible for the Government to work out and agree on conditions similar to those applied to the industries in Leitrim to ensure that Clondalkin Paper Mills will continue in operation until some package is worked out. The industry will need some restructuring. I am satisfied that it is not beyond the capacity of the Minister of State, his leader, the management of Clondalkin Paper Mills and Fóir Teoranta to work out some package which will ensure the continuation of that industry.
Fóir Teoranta are the body who are given the responsibility of coming to the assistance of ailing industries, and certainly the paper plant in Clondalkin comes into this category. I understand that negotiations are still proceeding between the Minister for Energy, Deputy O'Leary, Fóir Teoranta, the company and the unions to try to find a way out of this impasse and to ensure that production will continue at Clondalkin. I add my expectations to those of earlier speakers that a way will be found to do this.
The company's problems have arisen largely because of the high cost of energy in this country compared with the energy costs of our competitors in Europe and North America. This is a very critical matter which affects many industries in this country and the whole industrial basis here. We must so pitch our energy prices — for oil, hydro-carbons and electricity — that we do not price our industrial products out of the market. It is probably an over-simplification, although there is a lot of truth in it, to say that every increase in the price of energy, whether it be basic costs or by way of additional tax, VAT or any other, translates into loss of jobs. That equation applies, therefore we should have a care before we increase the cost of that item essential to industry.
I am unhappy about the way in which the firm have handled the situation. They were rather precipitate in putting the company into liquidation and in the way they did so. No urgency was upon them from creditors that required them to put the company into liquidation. It was not a case of a creditors' liquidation. The company themselves went into liquidation voluntarily. One cannot help but take up the suggestion that that was done to put undue pressure on the unions and on the Government agencies involved. Quite rightfully one expects a substantial contribution from public funds to keep an industry like that going. I would be the first to support that but at the same time it is not unreasonable to expect that the firm should also offer and come up with an input for the restructuring that is required. The initial offer made to them by Fóir Teoranta represented a substantial amount of money which would have enabled the company to re-equip with the most modern machinery available. That would have affected a substantial reduction in their energy bill. That was turned down out of hand and negotiations continued but, in the meantime, management put the company into liquidation thereby increasing the pressure on an already difficult situation.
It would not be too much to expect that the company would match the input of State funds but I have not seen a suggestion that they are prepared to put in any substantial new funding for the purpose of re-equipping or restructuring the company or putting in the new machinery which is so essential to make it viable. We have all heard the talk during the course of debates on other legislation of windfall profits and I should like to state that Clondalkin Paper Mills has been the happy recipient of a windfall product at its other premises at Saggart in County Dublin. As a result of a rezoning application on their premises at Saggart, formerly the Swift Brook premises, rezoning took place and one estimate is that it has increased the value of the land holding there by about £1½ million. That windfall injection of capital from that source, or some of it, might appropriately be directed towards matching the State input that would go into the re-equipping of the Clondalkin Paper Mills. The rest of the firm is very viable and doing quite well. Negotiations are still at a delicate stage and ongoing and I urge the Minister for Industry and Energy and the State agencies involved to make — I am sure they will — every possible effort to ensure that the maximum concessions are made and that the maximum amount of money that can be spared is put into this venture. I urge Fóir Teoranta to that end.
I am not very pleased with the reply of the Minister of State or the remarks of Deputy Taylor. On several occasions Deputy Walsh and I have tried to raise this matter in the House. When I tried to raise the matter with the Minister for Industry and Energy as a Private Notice Question I was turned down, the Minister saying he did not have any function in the matter. When the Minister of State, Deputy Desmond, was asked to explain the Government's position he attacked the management of Clondalkin and said they were at fault. We have now been told by the Minister of State, Deputy Bermingham, that Fóir Teoranta is an independent body and that the Government cannot put any pressure on them to save jobs. Sadly, this brings home the fact that the Clondalkin group are being pushed around with nobody caring. I do not think the Government are committed to saving this plant. They are prepared to let it go. That is sad because it is the last fine paper mill in the country. It appear that Members on the Government side of the House do not give a hoot to whether the plant stays open or not. Deputy Taylor said the company were quick to bring in a liquidator but he must be aware, as I am, that the company early this year made us all aware of the difficulties they were facing. The unions involved were aware of the threatened closure and they asked the Minister for Industry and Energy if he would meet them to discuss the closure. That was some time in September and on 6 October they received a letter from Deputy O'Leary, the Leader of the Labour Party who is committed to employment, trade unions and all the rest, to the effect that he was sorry he could not see them because he would be in America. I appreciate that Deputy O'Leary had to go to America but surely somebody else from the Government side could have met the workers. Somebody who is committed to the idea of a national development corporation should have met the workers.
On 7 October the company received a letter from the Minister for Finance to the effect that he could not give them any money from the employment guarantee fund because it would not be appropriate. The company have tried by every means possible to get funds. They have approached all appropriate Departments and every Government agency to get funds but without success. They also approached several members of the Government. Deputy Eddie Collins after his meeting with the Clondalkin group announced that he hoped it would be saved and before that Deputy Kelly had met representatives of the company. Those meetings were followed by a meeting with Deputy Michael O'Leary and later Ministers of State, Deputies Desmond and Bermingham, made statements on the matter. It is sad to think that in two weeks' time 470 people in Clondalkin will be facing unemployment because the Government will not tell us what is to be done.
Deputy Taylor is aware that the offer put up by the IDA was not sufficient, that the company would get £1½ million if they spent £2 million on restructuring and finding new capital. If the company accepted that offer they would be £500,000 worse off in strict financial terms without taking into consideration any further trading losses. Given the sort of trading pattern they have experienced in the past 12 months where they have been running at a loss of £200,000 per month, surely the company should not be asked to jeopardise the remaining concerns in the group. It must be remembered that aside from the 450 people in the paper mills a further 1,250 jobs are at stake if Clondalkin do not get out of the paper industry and continue in the present financial climate. If that happens 12 months from now we will be coming to the House raising the position of the other industries in the group. Deputy Taylor is aware of that and also that this is the reason why Clondalkin Paper Mills are faced with no alternative but to announce the closure because they are not getting aid from any Government agency. If they do not proceed with the closure the jobs in the other plants in that group of companies — 11 companies in all — will be in serious trouble. The group are very committed to creating employment in the area. They have given employment when there was no other employment available. I grew up in Newcastle which is close to Clondalkin and I am aware of the contribution which the paper mills, and the other companies in the group, made to the employment situation in that part of Country Dublin.
The Clondalkin group of companies have served the State well. During the last war when we did not have any fine paper, Clondalkin Paper Mills manufactured paper out of straw. What will happen if we have another war? The Minister of State should give us some idea of what the Government are doing to save the jobs. It is not good enough for elected representatives to be told that Fóir Teoranta are an independent body and pressure cannot be put on them. That is not good enough when within two weeks 470 people will lose their jobs. If that happens the way of life will be changed in the area. If this industry goes, Clondalkin will be reduced to a ghost town because the whole character of the area has been built around the paper mills which has been in operation for almost 200 years.
I support the request made by Deputy Walsh that the liquidator be given the necessary funds by the Government to keep the industry in operation until a rescue package is worked out. Deputy Walsh reminded the Minister of State that Fianna Fáil gave the liquidator of the McCartin group of companies sufficient funds to allow operations to continue in the various companies to safeguard the jobs until a rescue package was found. The Government should give a similar commitment in respect of Clondalkin Paper Mills. I have not received any reply to that request but was told by various Ministers that it was not their responsibility or that the matter is not urgent enough to be raised in the House. Last week I tried daily to raise the matter by way of a Private Notice Question but was ruled out of order. I am told that the Minister for Industry and Energy does not have responsibility for it or that it is not urgent enough, but if 470 people are due to lose their jobs in two weeks' time I deem that urgent. Unfortunately, the Government do not care and Deputy Taylor does not seem to care either.
I should make it quite clear to Deputy Harney, as I have made it clear on the occasions on which I have already spoken on this subject on the House, that I am no less concerned about preserving the jobs at Clondalkin than Deputy Harney, Deputy Walsh or any other Member. It is something about which we are all very much concerned in this House. That is the reason the House brought Fóir Teoranta into being and the reason their funding is being substantially increased under the provisions of this Bill. I wish that Clondalkin Paper Mills were the only company that would require the assistance of Fóir Teoranta in the foreseeable future and that therefore we could apply all of the £70 million being voted towards the affairs of Clondalkin. But, as we know only too well, we are faced with a serious situation in industrial development in that there are dozens of firms on the way down that are liable to have to close unless they receive substantial State fundings. Presumably that is why Fóir Teoranta and the other State agencies have to balance the distribution of the very meagre and limited funds available to us in these times of recession.
I welcome Deputy Harney's favourable reference to the National Development Corporation. I look forward to seeing her voting for that project when it is being brought into being shortly. It is regrettable that her party did not take steps to bring such a corporation into being during their term of office. Had such a corporation existed no doubt at this time it could have been put to good use in saving the affairs of the Clondalkin Paper Mills. But it has been left to this Government to bring it into being, unfortunately not in sufficient time to help Clondalkin——
There will be nobody left to help if we do not do something about it.
I look forward to their securing many worthwhile jobs in industry and it will be substantially funded as part of the joint programme of this Government.
To hear Deputy Harney talk one would have thought that Fóir Teoranta had made no substantial offer, even at the initial stages, to Clondalkin Paper Mills. That is not so; they had an offer on the table straightaway of £1,500,000. To make the point that it requires a further input on the part of Clondalkin to leave them £500,000 worse off after a period of six months or whatever is to my mind a specious argument. They may be down £500,000 but they will have a new factory re-equipped with £1,500,000 of State money and £500,000 of their own. To say that they are worse off at the end of that situation is entirely unacceptable. To make the company viable requires new plant and equipment that will reduce their costings, energy input and, when one has £2 million of new equipment going in, it must make a substantial difference. That is not to say — nor has it been said and I know it to be the contrary — that £500,000 was the end of the matter. My information is that the talks and negotiations are continuing. I would think that some better or different financial arrangements will be made between the company and Fóir Teoranta. I have the expectation, and sincerely hope, that these jobs will be saved, that the company can be put on such a viable footing that in the fullness of time it will increase employment there by the opening up of the pulp plant which was closed down some time ago.
We should not say too much here in case we might in any way prejudice the negotiations still continuing. I have already urged the Tánaiste and Fóir Teoranta to do everything possible to ensure that that employment continues and I do so again.
In case Deputy Taylor did not know, I am well aware that £1,500,000 was offered by the IDA to this company. Some of that money was owed already be way of grant for other work the company had carried out in the recent past. In the last two years this company re-organised and re-equipped themselves to the tune of £2 million. Within six months of having done so those £2 million had been eaten up by increased energy costs. Unless the company can bring about some risk-sharing by the Government, some subsidisation of their heavy energy costs occasioned by the nature of their industry, there is no way the company can continue to operate in the present financial situation. Already this year the company is losing to the tune of £200,000 monthly in trading losses because of their high energy costs. Their counterparts throughout Europe and North America, as Deputy Mervyn Taylor so rightly said, are in an advantageous position vis-à-vis them because their Governments subsidise their energy bills and are involved also in risk-sharing in this type of industry.
I am well aware of the proposal for a National Development Corporation. I welcome the idea, but if it is not established soon there will be nothing left to save, bearing in mind the rate at which firms are about to close down——
Fianna Fáil had four years to bring it in.
——with very little help from the Government. Surely this is the type of industry in which the National Development Corporation should be involved, a strategic industry, one which any country should be reluctant to let go and particularly an island country such as ours which does not have its own supply of fine paper.
I recognise there is very little time left in which to draw up the package required. Because of that I have asked that the liquidator be given funds to allow him to continue the operation at Clondalkin. Whether or not Deputy Mervyn Taylor likes it, saying that the talks are on-going, that the situation is serious, that it does not help raising the matter, nevertheless, if we as public representatives sit back — and I am not here trying to be party political; I am trying to help in every way I can to save the jobs of these workers who are very worried and concerned on account of their age and the specialised nature of the industry in which they are involved — these workers will not be able to find alternative employment. There is no point in telling us that the talks are on-going, that the situation is serious, that is it is with Fóir Teoranta and we should not say anything about it in this House, because in two weeks' time it will be too late to stand up here and talk about it; by then it will be something of the past.
Can the Minister of State tell me that the Government will give funds to the liquidator to allow this plant continue in operation until a rescue package is found? Secondly, would he tell me if he, as a member of the Labour Party in Government, would be committed to the idea of the State becoming involved in risk-sharing in this type of strategic industry? That is the only way in which Clondalkin Paper Mills can continue in operation: if the State involves itself in the risk-sharing and reconstruction.
Despite what Deputy Mervyn Taylor says, time and time again this company have made it clear — and as late as last week in a press release following their meeting with the Tánaiste — that they were committed to restructuring the company, that they were committed to doing everything possible to save the jobs. Therefore I do not want to hear Deputy Taylor or the Minister of State, Deputy B. Desmond, criticise the management for bringing in a liquidator and announcing a closure. They had no alternative. Why should they have been standing over the excuses of the Government. If this factory closes it will have been nobody's fault but that of the present Government, who have been so negligent over a long number of months. There have been the examples of the Tánaiste sending a letter back saying that he would be away in America and could not meet the workers, he was sorry; the Minister for Finance sending them a letter to the effect that they could not get money from the Employment Guarantee Fund, that it was not appropriate. Surely if it is not appropriate to saving 470 jobs in Clondalkin Paper Mills, then in heaven's name for what is it appropriate?
I personally and my party understand the problem in Clondalkin and negotiations are going on with Fóir Teoranta, who also understand the problem. I can assure the House that everything possible will be done to maintain these jobs. I do not believe that any of the Deputies opposite expect me to commit Fóir Teoranta to any course of action at this time while negotiations are proceeding. It is not as simple as that. Negotiations are proceeding with Fóir Teoranta concerning the continuation of the Clondalkin Paper Mills industry. I do not know how any reasonable person could expect me to indicate the end of those negotiations while they are still in progress. It is not reasonable to ask that. Despite what Deputy Harney said, I think it is being made a political football, which is a pity, because we should be very careful in what we say. Whatever may be said here might do some harm to the negotiations proceeding. I would ask people to accept that negotiations with Fóir Teoranta are continuing.
It is agreed on all sides of the House that Fóir Teoranta, whose borrowing capacity to industry we are extending under the provisions of this Bill, carry out a very useful function. Under the legislation setting up Fóir Teoranta we cannot spell out specific things for them to do. They are an independent board. What we are doing here in this Bill is giving them more borrowing power and more lending power and more power to the Minister for Finance to make extra money available. I can assure everyone here that Fóir Teoranta and the Tánaiste and the Government understand the seriousness of the situation in Clondalkin and that everything possible will be done to keep this industry going.
I appreciate what the Minister has said. But are there meaningful negotiations taking place? We have heard a great deal about negotiations. Deputy Taylor has said that they may be at a delicate stage. I appreciate that also. As a representative for that constituency I am well acquainted with the workings of Clondalkin Paper Mills. But it is important for the House to remember that since the announcement of the closure of Clondalkin Paper Mills quite a number of meetings have taken place and very little progress has been made. Time is running out. There is no use in saying negotiations are at a delicate stage or that it is being made into a political football. The employment of 480 workers is not a political football. There were a fair number of political footballs kicked about before the general election and all the talk about some of them has dried up since.
As a representative of this constituency, and as a former industrial worker, I speak with genuine concern for the 480 employees. That number could be considerably increased unless something is done. It is very easy to criticise the management of Clondalkin Paper Mills. But Clondalkin Paper Mills have stood the test over the years and have proved that the paper industry can be successful. There were problems for this paper mill in 1936 when it was reopened. But it has been a very successful business venture ever since and the number of employees has increased over the years. If this is a political football there is not much point in having a debate in this House. Will the Minister assure us that meaningful discussions are taking place? When the first announcement was made a meeting took place between the management of Clondalkin Paper Mills and the Minister of State, Deputy E. Collins. It was announced that evening that he was hopeful that as a result of the negotiations satisfactory arrangements could be worked out. But since then quite a number of meetings have taken place and no proper announcement has been made in this House, in the newspapers, to the management of the paper mills or to the workers, that real progress was being made. Time is running out and there is little point in saying that discussions are at a delicate stage unless the discussions mean something. I again ask the Minister to assure us that there are meaningful discussions taking place and that something will be done.
I regret the tone of the Minister's reply accusing us of being party-political. I said we were not being party-political. But, of course, we are being political. We want a political decision from the Government. Are they committed to the State getting involved in this paper industry and are they committed, forgetting about Fóir Teoranta for the moment, to giving the liquidator the necessary funds. These are political decisions which must be made by the members of the Government. There is no point in the Minister of State telling me that Fóir Teoranta are an independent body. We are not talking about some private firm somewhere in Ireland. Fóir Teoranta are funded by the taxpayers. They are an agency of the Government and therefore the Government are responsible.
What is the Government's commitment to saving the jobs in Clondalkin? Are they committed to State involvement in this industry and are they committed to funding the liquidator? It is all very well to talk about national development corporations and so on. It is a bit like the school entry age, stopping children of four years going to school for a couple of years and then setting up pre-school groups. There is no point in doing something when it is too late. There is no point in Deputy Taylor telling me that we will have a National Development Corporation in six months or eight months or a year. If Clondalkin Paper Mills closes down there is no point in the 470 workers being told that we will have a National Development Corporation. That will be no good to them. It is political. I want a political decision. I want to know exactly what the Government are doing. I am a young Deputy, I am a new Deputy, and I was very sad to have to make my maiden speech on this issue. I would have preferred to have been able to talk on a brighter note because there is enough doom and gloom in Leinster House, as anybody one brings in to listen from the Gallery will tell one. We want to get some commitment from the Government as to what they intend to do to save jobs.
Last week, when the workers came in here to meet the Tánaiste, he would not meet them; he was not available and could not be found. They met Deputy Haughey and it was not long then before the Tánaiste could be found. He suddenly was available and met these people. What did he tell them? Did he commit himself to anything or did he just tell them that meaningful negotiations were going on and that everything would be done? All these gestures sound very well. It is very easy to fob people off. But that is not good enough with only two weeks to go to the closure of this industry and the loss of 470 jobs.
The Minister will excuse me for being a bit party-political here but I have to say that we had the Minister of State, Deputy B. Desmond, accusing the management of announcing the closure behind closed doors and saying that his Government did not know and that nobody knew Clondalkin Paper Mills was about to close, despite the fact that ever since the new Government came into office at the end of June the management of this company were continually knocking on the door of every Government Minister with responsibility to try to find some funds, to get some commitment, some way of saving the paper mills. The Tánaiste refused; the Minister, Deputy Kelly, refused; the Department of Finance refused. They had no alternative when they got the IDA offer on 21 October. They made the Government well aware of the imminent closure. The company had no alternative but to announce the closure. So for Deputy Desmond to try to escape via the back door by accusing the management of doing something wrong is not good enough. The management of Clondalkin Paper Mills have behaved very responsibly.
I regret the tone of Deputy Taylor's remarks as well. As an elected Member for our constituency he must have been well aware of the difficulties facing Clondalkin Paper Mills. In fact, during the general election campaign the Taoiseach paid a visit to Clondalkin Paper Mills and was delighted to talk to the workers and canvass for his Fine Gael candidate. I wonder did he tell them when he visited the plant in May and June that he was going to have it closed down at the end of December? Did he tell them that there would be negotiations, that they could not put pressure on Fóir Teoranta because it is an independent board? I do not think so. On the contrary, he was delighted to go in and meet the workers. I want him now to come in and commit himself to helping the workers when they need his help and his Government's commitment.
The Deputies will accept that, while the Chair recognises that the circumstances where moneys of this nature have been voted it is perfectly in order for them to inquire as to the manner in which the money will be spent. They should recognise as well, however, that what a Minister of State or any other Minister might do in reply is entirely a matter for himself.
If an organisation such as Fóir Teoranta is difficult to get at for Members of this House and business people who want to deal with them, then this is the time and the place to talk about those difficulties.
The Chair fully accepts that. The Chair is merely indication that how the Minister of State might reply is entirely a matter for himself.
I appreciate what the Chair is saying and fully accept it. But the Chair will appreciate my position as a Deputy for the area. I have tried on all other occasions, through Private Members' Business, Private Notice Questions and questions on the Adjournment, to get a commitment from Government Ministers, and I just cannot get that commitment. I had hoped, as this matter is with Fóir Teoranta, that at least today I would have an opportunity of getting the commitment which I have sought on so many other occasions.
The Chair is not questioning the Deputy's right to raise the matter. I assure her that she and other Deputies are perfectly in order in raising it. The response they get is not a matter for the Chair.
It is a question of getting information.
I am not blaming the Chair. I am blaming the Minister who is responsible.
The Government Ministers and the agencies involved are anxious that these discussions be meaningful. A contribution must be made from all sides if the discussions are to be successful. The Deputies can rest assured that Fóir Teoranta are very anxious to make these discussions a success.
I have been asked by the Deputies opposite to commit some of the funds of Fóir Teoranta to one specific industry. I cannot do that. It would be wrong, because Fóir Teoranta were set up as an independent body with their own board. That fact is recognised here tonight by all sides of this House. We are tonight increasing their borrowing power, spending power and the power of the Minister for Finance to give them more funds, but I cannot commit their funds to any specific industry. That is admitted right across the House. Fóir Teoranta have helped a great number of industries, at some of whose negotiations I was present. They have done a good job and should be given the opportunity of finishing their negotiations. We will probably not be disappointed.
So the Minister is telling me now that the Government have no responsibility or function, as the Tánaiste said last week, in regard to the closure of the Clondalkin Paper Mills.
I am not saying anything of the kind. I am speaking about a Bill before me.
What does the Minister think that the Government should be doing, or what are the Government doing to rescue this company?
Negotiations are at present going on with Fóir Teoranta, in which the IDA and the Government are concerned. I just cannot commit some of the funds being authorised in this Bill to one specific industry.
Could the Minister give the House the up-to-date position in relation to these negotiations?
My information is that negotiations are at a critical stage and we are hoping for some kind of package to come out of them to help to solve the immediate problems of Clondalkin Paper Mills. I am piloting a Bill through the House, the purpose of which is to increase the borrowing capacity of Fóir Teoranta and the amount of money which the Minister for Finance can make available under the Act to this body, in order to help ailing industries. The accepted practice which has been enshrined in the Bill is that Fóir Teoranta have an independent board to investigate any applications made for such help. I am being asked, under this Bill, to commit some of this money. I cannot decide what is to be done with the money. All I am saying is that negotiations are going on and I feel confident that there will be a result.
Are they halfway through, or nearly finished? When will they be concluded?
I do not have that information.
There are only two weeks left."
Deputy Mervyn Taylor.
Judging by some of the comments, this debate is beginning to lose touch with reality. A casual person coming into the House might get the impression that it was the Tánaiste, the Taoiseach, or the Government in some way, who had stepped into Clondalkin Paper Mills and were actively setting about closing them down and putting people out of their jobs. The reverse is true. The company have triggered off this situation and it is the Government — and let it be remembered that it is public funds and taxpayers' money that we are talking about — who are making the endeavour to save those jobs. I want those jobs saved. Nobody in this House differs in that respect. I do not mind how the jobs are saved, whether by a subsidy on energy, State participation, or any other means. I urge the Minister to make his representations accordingly to Fóir Teoranta to ensure that whatever means are necessary to save these jobs will be used and that the industry will continue, which is what we all want.
At the same time, we must remember that it is a negotiation which is taking place and not a unilateral declaration. It would not be acceptable that the company would say that they need £6 million, £10 million, £15 million. The fact that negotiations are going on implies, of necessity, that there are two parties and two sides involved. On the one hand we have the company, which are, let us face it, a public company in private ownership. They are not a public authority or anything of that nature. They have shareholders, dividends and so forth. They are seeking to obtain the maximum funding from public funds towards assisting their company. More power to them. It is a director's job to do the best he can for the company. On the other hand, Fóir Teoranta and the other State agencies have to negotiate their side of it to ensure that whatever taxpayer's money is being put into the firm will not sink, but will be used to make the company viable, thus ensuring that the jobs will continue. It is no good putting, say, £3 million into the Clondalkin Paper Mills, to find, at the end of the day, that millions of the taxpayers' money has been lost and jobs as well. The jobs must be saved and Fóir Teoranta are obliged to ensure that the money is well spent in re-equipping the company and ensuring that it will become viable. That is what negotiations are about and we all hope that these negotiations, which are still going on, will be successful.
The Minister of State has indicated that under section 2 of this legislation it is not possible for him to commit Fóir Teoranta to any specific amount in respect of the Clondalkin Paper Mills. Would the House, therefore, accept that there is not much point in pursuing that proposition at any greater length?
We would certainly accept that. I am sure we would all be at one in urging the Minister to make his representations to Fóir Teoranta to ensure that every possible effort is made to safeguard these jobs. We have to accept that he cannot nominate a particular sum.
I am perfectly agreeable to accepting what the Minister says in normal circumstances but I am at a loss here. I am committed, as Deputy Taylor is, to saving the jobs and the industry. I am committed to the State involving itself in this industry and to its subsidising energy, and, until a package is found to the liquidator being given resources to enable the industry to continue in operation. I do not know what the Government are committed to. What input are they making into these negotiations? Have the Government decided what they are going to do or are they sitting back and letting someone else decide for them? Deputy Taylor does not seem to have much faith in the management or the workers at Clondalkin. They would not take £3 million or any amount of State funds and spend it casually. The workers are committed to saving their jobs and the management are committed to saving the industry. Were it not for this fact the operation would have closed long ago and the management would not now be negotiating. These people have suffered enough from accusations by Government Ministers that they are closing down too soon and that they are not telling them what is being done. All of us are at a loss to know the exact Government commitment in relation to Clondalkin Paper Mills. I have not yet succeeded in finding out this information. Perhaps the Minister of State would tell us what input the Government are making, what their commitment is and what they are looking for.
I appreciate the circumstances of the Minister of State but nevertheless I put it to him that we have not had any assurance that the mills will remain open until such time as an acceptable package is worked out. This has been done in the case of other industries but the Minister has not referred to it. He said that meaningful negotiations were going on but we have not heard of any progress. We have not been given an assurance that the mills will continue to operate until a package is worked out. In the event of this not being possible we will be in a different situation. Staff at Clondalkin Paper Mills have an average length of service of 25 or 30 years and some have been there for 40 years. Are we going to lose this valuable industry? Surely it is not too much to ask the Minister to give the assurances I have requested.
I have spelled out this situation in detail. We are dealing with section 2 of the Bill and I am being asked to commit some of the funds being made available to Fóir Teoranta to Clondalkin Paper Mills. I appreciate the concern expressed about this company but I am not in a position to say how these funds will be distributed. The funds are being made available to Fóir Teoranta to assist industries which are ailing but I cannot commit these funds specifically to any industry.
The Chair would ask the House to accept that there has been constant repetition of the two sides to the case and we seem to have exhausted any worthwhile comments on it. The position is as stated by the Minister of State.
It is regrettable that the Minister cannot give us a firm commitment on this matter. I am not familiar with all the details of the Clondalkin case but I regret the attitude of the Minister that any discussion of the matter here might hinder the prospect of a solution to the problem. I take this with a grain of salt because under the previous Coalition I was lectured by the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Keating, when I raised the matter of the possible closure of the International Piano Company at Shannon, that discussion of the matter here would damage the prospects of reaching some settlement. A solution was not found and the company, the only one of its type here, closed down. The skills and the potential of that industry were totally lost. At a later stage I was told that the matter was likely to come before the courts and further discussion was prohibited on the grounds that it was sub judice. The result was that over £1 million was lost in that industry. This was one of the major scandals of the previous Coalition Government.
I sincerely hope that a solution will be found to the Clondalkin problem but we are suspicious of the Government because of the difficulty of getting some action in the matter. We would not be so concerned were it not that such confusion arose as to who was responsible and the difficulty of arranging meetings. It is because of the lack of action by the Government that we are raising this issue now.
Regarding section 2, I am worried about the limit of £70 million. We are in a difficult economic situation where it may be necessary for Fóir Teoranta to become far more involved in financial rescue than they have been in the past. Many more companies may need financial assistance. The amount provided here may not be sufficient and may not allow the agency to become more deeply involved in saving companies. Too many jobs have been lost in small companies and greater efforts must be made by Fóir Teoranta in this area. Small companies cannot exert the necessary pressure and do not receive much publicity and often close leaving seven or eight people out of work.
The Minister said in his introductory speech that he had recently received the report of the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies relating to Fóir Teoranta. He said that the Committee raised a number of issues in the report and that these were the subject of continuing examination by both Fóir and his Department. He also said that discussions on these issues had taken place and would be continued. I would expect that as a result of these discussions it may be necessary to extend the operations of Fóir Teoranta into other sectors. Some companies are getting into difficulties because of the international recession and difficult trading conditions and they may need more money. Further funds may be needed if there is to be a broadening of the scope of Fóir Teoranta.
Discussions have taken place and are continuing and I believe it will be recommended that the activities of Fóir Teoranta be expanded to involve other sectors of industry. That would be desirable but I do not regard the provision being made in this Bill as sufficient to meet the demands likely to be made on Fóir Teoranta in the future.
We all know that there was an increase of 50 per cent in the number of applications for assistance in 1980. That increase was a reflection of the international economic recession which had forced some companies to cut down and others to close down. I am sure there was a further increase in applications in 1981 and that we can expect a significant increase next year. Unemployment figures are increasing rapidly and very little effort is being made by the Government to deal with the situation which will reach crisis figures later.
Therefore, I am genuinely anxious and concerned that this provision will not be nearly sufficient if we are to get Fóir Teoranta involved in other sectors, particularly in the area of small companies, whose difficulties do not hit the headlines in the same way as big international firms. These small companies are equally important in the provision of new employment and are therefore of tremendous economic value. I understand that 35 applications have to be refused by Fóir Teoranta in 1980, many more than in 1979. Applications approved in 1980 were three times the 1979 level.
It is very important when discussing a Bill of this type to look at the whole question of job preservation. I agree totally with the campaign for job creation but we should now embark on a broad programme of job preservation which can be as effective and less expensive than the creation of new employment opportunities. I would point to the savings to be made through job preservation, such as social welfare outgoings and redundancy payments. These savings will give a picture of the effect on the economy generally of job preservation. We must consider also the effect on other related companies of the closure of even one company. That must be taken into account, particularly in the Clondalkin company. A complete close down there would have wide-ranging effects on other companies.
For those reasons we now need a strong job preservation campaign. This should be highlighted equally with the job creation project. We agree there is an international economic recession which is affecting us badly. We need new jobs, we need new jobs to be brought in, but it is equally necessary to preserve the jobs we have and to avoid closures. I have heard arguments on numerous occasions for the need to have a more efficient fire brigade operation, a better early warning system. This calls for close co-ordination between all the agencies involved with Fóir Teoranta, the IDA, the ICC, SFADCo and others. That co-ordination is necessary if we are to preserve existing jobs. However, it is difficult to achieve this co-ordination between the various State agencies when we do not seem to be able to co-ordinate the activities of the various Ministers. We would need a crash course in the House to keep us informed on which Minister is doing what among all the Ministers we have. We have Ministers daily exorting State agencies to co-ordinate their activities, we have them lecturing daily on the need for such co-ordination, but I suggest they should co-ordinate their own activities, practice what they preach. We then would not have the embarrassing situation we got at the early stages of the Clondalkin difficulty.
I welcome the Bill but I do not think it goes far enough. Further legislation will have to be introduced in this area. If the Minister is serious about extending the scope of the activities of Fóir Teoranta he will have to increase the amount of money available for that.
Should a further Bill be required to extend the borrowing limits of Fóir Teoranta it can be done quickly, but the limit of £70 million provided for in this Bill should be sufficient for a number of years. The Deputy's point about broadening the scope of Fóir Teoranta activities will be borne in mind, though the Joint Committee recommended that there should not be a change in that respect. In regard to Deputy Daly's point on job preservation, I agree with him, and Fóir Teoranta are engaged in that field. Indeed, the Government are aware of their success in that respect.
(Wexford): I agree that the Minister has been under severe pressure. He continued to answer questions I felt he was not asked in the past 20 minutes. He said he had no right to allocate the funds of Fóir Teoranta. The question he was asked was: what was the Government's input into the talks about Clondalkin? Three parties are involved: Fóir Teoranta, the Government and Clondalkin. Were the Government merely observers in these talks? Had they an input and, if they had, to what degree is it to be seen?
The Minister of State was required to comment only on the provisions of sections 2 and 3.
(Wexford): In these recessionary times many companies are in severe difficulty, and particularly the agricultural industries. I should like to know if it is the intention of Fóir Teoranta to come to the aid of the agricultural industries. How many companies are Fóir Teoranta helping at present and how do they compare with Clondalkin?
Section 3 gives extra power to the Minister to increase his allocation to Fóir Teoranta in the same way as we have given power to Fóir Teoranta to borrow extra money. At present Fóir Teoranta are limited to assisting the manufacturing and mining industries. They can come to the rescue of those two areas. If the agricultural industries are within those categories, Fóir Teoranta can come to their rescue if they are in financial trouble, as they well may be. The recommendation of the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies is that the scope be not extended.
Not extended?
That it be not extended.
Having listened to the debate on Second Stage and on Committee Stage, and having regard to the episode of the Clondalkin Paper Mills, it appears to me that too many Government agencies and Ministers are involved with companies undergoing difficulties. The company to which I referred have been involved with the Minister, Deputy Kelly, the Minister for Industry and Energy and the Minister for Finance. This causes a great amount of confusion and inconvenience.
People are confused about which Government agency are responsible. Fóir Teoranta were established to help ailing industries and to help firms experiencing difficulties. It would be better for everybody if all the Government rescue agencies were co-ordinated under one Government Department. Groups like Clondalkin Paper Mills seldom have to deal with Government Departments, Minister and politicians. It can be very confusing, time-consuming and awkward for them to have to deal with so many bureaucratic arms. Would the Minister agree that a better service would be provided for the industries gladly helped by Fóir Teoranta if all the rescue sections and funds were co-ordinated, perhaps by the establishment of a National Development Corporation to which Deputy Taylor referred?
The co-ordination of these bodies does not arise on section 3.
We are discussing the allocation of additional funds to help ailing industries.
The debate is confined to Fóir Teoranta and does not stretch over all the other agencies.
Fóir Teoranta should have sole responsibility for helping firms and industries in difficulties. If this House is allocating additional funds for that purpose, it would be desirable that this body should have sole responsibility and that firms in difficulties should not have to approach the IDA first. It would be more beneficial for industries in trouble if they had to deal exclusively with Fóir Teoranta.
I should like to refer briefly to the Clondalkin issue. It is regrettable that, while we are allocating substantial sums of public moneys to Fóir Teoranta, the Government seem to have no input into how those funds are used.
The Deputy is being repetitive ad nauseam. Repetition should be avoided.
This is a typical example of great confusion and of where the Government seem to have no responsibility and no real input. That is regrettable. We hear speeches from the Taoiseach and from Ministers about employment and about the fact that they are trying to bring in more industries. Earlier in the year the Minister for Industry and Energy could not meet the Clondalkin workers because he was going to America to try to get more industries to increase employment. It would have been better if we could have saved those 470 jobs. It takes many trips to America and a good deal of the taxpayer's money to provide 470 jobs, and to provide an industry as well-established and functioning as well as the Clondalkin Paper Mills. Fóir Teoranta should have sole and exclusive responsibility for helping firms in difficulty. The Minister should make them aware of what his Government would like to see them doing. It is not good enough to allocate funds to such a body without giving them some indication of what the Government would like to see done with those funds. It is very hard to find money for various projects.
The Deputy is out of order. There is legislation governing Fóir Teoranta which cannot be changed by section 3 of this Bill. Would the Deputy allow the Chair to put section 3?
No, Sir. I have a point to make. Earlier I referred to the trade union representation on the board and the Minister of State said this was not the appropriate Bill on which to raise that matter, but that he would give it sympathetic consideration. I want to tell the House and the Minister of State that the person who raised this issue on this Bill was the Minister of State, Deputy Desmond, who in a very polite way——
The Chair would remind Deputy Fitzgerald that the Minister of State, Deputy Desmond, is given to error the same as anybody else.
When the Minister of State introduces a topic with a view to scoring points, he has to be gently deflected.
You do not have to follow bad example.
Perhaps you misunderstand the real position. As Deputy Collins said, the Minister of State was here the last day and for some reason is not here today.