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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Nov 1981

Vol. 331 No. 3

Supplementary Estimates, 1981. - Vote 43: Trade, Commerce and Tourism.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10,018,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1981, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies, grants and grants-in-aid.

There is a point I should mention here as an introductory note. As Deputies are aware and as indicated in footnotes to this Supplementary Estimate, the amount provided for in the original Vote was for the services administered by the former Department of Industry, Commerce and Tourism. It is the practice when a change of departmental functions occurs during a financial year, as happened this year in my Department, the original Vote, having had Dáil approval, continues the disbursement of the funds provided for that financial year in respect of all the services covered in the Vote. A part of the increase now being sought in respect of what may be referred to as "shared services"— for example, salaries, travel, post office services — is related to the transferred functions, but in the circumstances mentioned they are included in this Supplementary. Likewise, savings from whatever service within the original Vote are utilised to reduce the amount required.

The principal factors giving rise to this Supplementary Estimate are the extra provision needed for the bread and flour and wheatenmeal subsidies arising mainly from the increase in the level of both subsidies from 10 May 1981 and the further provision for bread subsidy increase from 5 July 1981 as well as for the introduction of a margarine subsidy, also from July 1981.

Adjustments are necessary also in respect of a number of other subheads of expenditure arising from circumstances which could not have been foreseen when the Estimates were prepared originally. The additional costs are being met in part by savings on some other subheads and partly by increased appropriations-in-aid. The details are as follows:

Under subhead A. 1 — Salaries, Wages and Allowances — the additional amount required, £230,000, arises from the cost of special claims for certain grades the awards for which have been approved by the Department of the Public Service. There was no provision in the original Estimate for such awards as they could not have been foreseen then.

The extra £50,000 sought under this subhead B. 1 — Travelling and Incidental Expenses — reflects the additional costs which arose during the year from increased air fares and higher rates approved by the Department of the Public Service for subsistence and mileage allowances.

The extra provision of £13,000 under subhead B. 2. — Office Machinery — is needed to meet the cost of essential storage equipment for the Companies Registration Office and waste paper disposal equipment at headquarters.

The additional £54,000 sought under subhead C. 1 — Post Office Services — is mainly to defray the increase in telephone charges arising during the year which had not been foreseen and provision had not therefore been made originally for them. Also, extra telephone facilities, which were required due to relocation of some offices, were installed during the year.

On subhead E. 1 — Bord Fáilte Éireann: Grants under section 2 of the Tourist Traffic Act, 1961 — the continuing economic recession and the Northern troubles had a damaging effect on tourism during 1981. To counteract this Bord Fáilte were authorised to spend an additional £400,000 on promotion. The deviations in exchange rates during the earlier part of the year led to extra costs being incurred by Bord Fáilte in their marketing activities abroad and a further £350,000 is needed to meet those rate fluctuations. An additional £330,000 was required to meet the cost of applying some grade claims awarded in the public sector to comparable grades in the board. Bord Fáilte have been able to effect some internal savings amounting to £150,000 and the additional amount required is therefore, £930,000.

This year's Estimate provided £9,730,000 towards the grant-in-aid for Córas, Tráchtála, who now require an additional £1,964,000. Of this sum, £83,000 is needed to meet increased pay costs following certain approved grade pay awards. The balance is to fund the cost of the necessarily high level of promotional activities undertaken by the organisation during the latter part of 1980, and continued throughout the present year, leading to substantial over-expenditure on the original provision for 1981 and contributing to a deficit in 1980 which was carried into 1981. The deficit situation is now being eliminated.

Given the depressed world trading conditions which characterised 1980 and which became more difficult still during 1981, it was imperative that every possible step should be taken to build on the many past export successes of Irish firms so as to improve our export performance. Our balance of payment situation demanded that we earn abroad as much hard currency as possible, to pay for the rising cost of our essential imports.

There is little need to stress how vital it is that we maintain a successful export effort if we are to combat unemployment and protect our living standards. For the five years up to 1979, Ireland had the highest export value and volume growth in the European Economic Community. Total export value rose by 18.1 per cent in 1980. In the first nine months of 1981, the total value was up 15.0 per cent and the prospects are that the outturn for 1981 will measure up to Córas Tráchtala's target for the year.

It is against this background that the over-expenditure by CTT, to which I have referred earlier, must be considered. Because of the difficult trading climate being experienced in 1980, CTT decided, in the latter part of that year, to increase their activities and to boost their incentive grant schemes. CTT introduced the new measures in the mistaken belief that they had adequate resources to meet the costs. This was not so and by the end of 1980 CTT had seriously overspent. It also appears that their accounting system failed to monitor adequately the ensuing overdraft, which reached proportions far exceeding anything incurred in earlier years. Part of the Supplementary Estimate is required to wipe out this overdraft.

There have been detailed discussions with CTT on these matters and I am now satisfied that steps have been taken not only to introduce a modern dependable accounting system in Córas Tráchtála but also measures are being taken to ensure that similar problems do not arise again in the future. I believe that the overspending by CTT, while unfortunate, is understandable, given all the circumstances, and I am confident that Deputies will agree with this view and that the additional finance now required to fund the essential services provided by Córas Tráchtála in especially difficult times should be made available.

In regard to subhead J. 1. — Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited — Shannon Airport in 1980 had one of its worst ever years in terms of passenger traffic. There was an overall decline from the 1979 level of 1,168,317 movements to 917,374, representing a drop of 21 per cent. This decline in traffic can be attributed to many factors. The worldwide economic recession obviously had a dampening effect on traffic. In addition, Shannon, being a transatlantic airport, was particularly affected by the reluctance of North Americans to travel during 1980, it being the year of the American Presidential Election. The build-up of the crisis in Iran was also a restricting factor at that time.

It is expected that 1981 should show a slight improvement in the traffic figures but if Shannon is to prosper a healthy growth in traffic is essential. The only way to achieve this is by aggressive marketing which the company is implementing. This intensified marketing drive was initiated early in 1981, but the allocations for the year had been decided previously. £100,000 additional to the original 1981 allocation is, consequently, required.

The downturn in business had also led to unexpected losses by Castle Tours whose operations include, for example, the Bunratty Banquets. Both Aer Rianta and SFADCo are involved in this venture. The sum of £130,000 is required to meet SFADCo's share of losses for 1980 and 1981. The future of Castle Tours and the restoring of the operation to profitability are under discussion between Aer Rianta and SFADCo.

An additional £60,000 is required by the company to cover the cost of extending the recent grade pay awards made to some civil service categories to comparable grades in the company. The total amount needed is, therefore, £290,000.

Under subhead K.2. — Credit Financing of Certain Capital Goods Exports — provision was made for the expenditure of £825,000 in 1981 for the financing of certain capital goods exports. This was the best forecast which could be made at the time of the preparation of the Estimates having regard to: (a) the likely take-up of the scheme by exporters, measured against previous experience; (b) the unknown future fluctuations in interest rates; and (c) the unknown degree of exposure that would arise in the case of foreign currency financing for contracts.

The export credit finance scheme is designed to enable Irish exporters of capital goods to compete successfully overseas. I am happy to say that since the preparation of the 1981 Estimate, Irish exporters of such goods have been remarkably successful in obtaining export orders against severe competition. This is reflected in the increased use of the scheme. In fact, unprecedented use was made of the scheme in the 12 months ended June 1981, clearly indicating the success of our exporters in obtaining an increasing volume of export contracts. I would remind the House that our capital goods sector has a very high "value added" and employment content.

Almost all of our capital goods exports are sold in foreign currencies, mainly sterling or US dollars, and due to the weakness last year of the Irish pound relative to these currencies an increased amount, by way of interest support, has had to be paid.

The above two factors, when taken together, have resulted in the increased expenditure under this subhead. Accordingly, a further amount of £657,000 is required to meet the additional and very worthwhile expenditure necessarily incurred in connection with the support of our capital goods exports.

Several circumstances have given rise to the need for extra funds for subheads R.1.R.2., bread, flour and wheatenmeal subsidies. As other colleagues of mine have had to do when presenting their Estimates I must emphasise that, in the first place, there was an under-provision to the extent of £1 million in the original allocation made for them. That is evident from the estimate of their cost, based on known factors, as compared with the provision finally decided upon for them by the then Government. Then in May, 1981, the previous Government decided to increase the rate of subsidy on standard bread by 5p per 800gm loaf and the rate of subsidy on flour and wheatenmeal sold for domestic use by 4p per kilo, with effect from 10 May. Provision had not, however, been made for these unforeseen subsidy level increases in the original allocations under the relevant subheads.

Subsequently, an application was received from the bakery industry for an increase in the price of bread, with effect from the beginning of July. Following a detailed examination of the application, the National Prices Commission recommended an increase of 5p per 800gm loaf. However, in line with the commitment to stabilise the price of certain basic food items, the Government decided that the recommended increase in the price of bread would not be implemented but would be met by way of an increase in the subsidy on standard bread from 5 July.

As a result of all these factors, it is necessary to increase the allocations for the current year to provide for the shortfalls which are expected to arise, of £14,475,000 on the bread subsidy and £1,150,000 on the flour and wheatenmeal subsidy.

On subhead R.3. — margarine subsidy — following a detailed examination of an application from the margarine manufacturers, the National Prices Commission recommended price increases of ½p to 1½p per ½ lb. on margarine, with effect from the beginning of July, 1981, and ½p to 1p per ½ lb. with effect from the beginning of October, 1981. However, in line with its commitment to which I have just referred, to stabilise the price of certain basic food items, the Government decided that the recommended increases would not be implemented, but would be met by way of subsidy. Accordingly, an amount of £250,000 is required to defray the cost involved in stabilising the retail price of margarine to the end of the current financial year.

The total amount of the increased expenditure is £20,063,000 but there is an offset of £9,511,000 in savings mainly made up of £930,000 on the Bord Fáilte provision for Development of Holiday Accommodation — Capital subhead E.2. — due to grants not being taken up to the extent anticipated; £2,221,000 saving on the Industrial Development Authority — Administration subhead I.1. — provision because that subhead has benefited from additional income deriving from internal resources of the Authority related to factory rents; £5,750,000 saving on the Industrial Development Authority — Capital subhead I.2. — due to the Authority's success in securing a higher level of investment by the private sector in building of factories and to some claims for payments of moieties of approved grants coming through more slowly than might have been expected; £390,000 on the capital provision for the Irish Film Board — T.2. capital — because aid to new projects this year will not reach the level originally anticipated due to the limited period of the board's operations since appointment.

There will also be a surplus of £534,000 in appropriations-in-aid mainly attributable to increased receipts under the Patents and Trade Mark Acts — £300,000 — because of higher fees having been introduced. There is also £170,000 by way of extra receipts from premiums under the Export Guarantee Scheme due to increased volume of business. The net amount needed is, therefore, £10,018,000.

I have explained the reasons for the increased expenditure and I now recommend the Supplementary Estimate to the House.

I have no objection to this Supplementary Estimate but I would like to say a few words about some aspects of it. I understand that it has been the practice on the part of several members of the Government, and it was to a limited extent resorted to today by the Minister for Trade, Tourism, and Commerce, to allege that in the preparation of the Estimates for 1981 there was deliberate underestimation of the figures that were required. In view of that allegation which was made, when I heard that this Supplementary Estimate was being put on this afternoon at the very urgent request of the Government I went to the trouble of doing some sums in the light of this Supplementary Estimate.

If one excludes from the Supplementary Estimate the increase in bread, flour and margarine subsidies, all of which were introduced long after the preparation of these Estimates and could not, therefore, possibly have been taken into account when the Estimates were prepared in November 1980 and December 1980 — if you exclude those, the net effect of this Supplementary Estimate is to reduce the original Estimate by £6,364,000 and I, therefore, would challenge the Minister or the House or anyone else to say that the Estimate for the Department of Industry, Commerce and Tourism for 1981 was deliberately underestimated. The proof is in the figures here today, that it was, in fact, overestimated and I feel somewhat guilty that I allowed it to be over estimated by £6,364,000.

I wonder why that error was made. I want to show how I arrived at the figure. The total of the new subsidies introduced in May and July of 1981, and therefore beyond the ken of anyone last November when this was being introduced, comes to £15,875,000. You deduct from that the savings on numerous subheads overestimations of £9,511,000 and it gives you a net figure of £6,364,000 over-estimation in the original estimate as prepared last November and December in the 1981 Estimates. Therefore, it is not and demonstrably cannot be true to allege that there was any under-estimation in the services for this Department.

In looking at a Supplementary Estimate of this kind people tend to look for the most part at the subheads or areas where additional money is being spent, but what is often much more significant is where less money is being spent. That is put in smallprint where you will hardly notice it, but it is there on page two of this document and there are very substantial and interesting savings, as they are described.

I want to say that it seems to me that some are rather ominous. The total saving or estimation is £9,511,000, as I quoted earlier, but of that just a few thousand short of £8 million is a cutback in the IDA. I have had some four years experience of dealing with the IDA and their estimates. I have never experienced a saving. My greatest problem with them always was to try to keep them even remotely near the figure they were supposed to budget for. There was always such enormous vitality and eagerness to get on with the job in that organisation that it was generally difficult to keep them down to the allocated figure. I think in every one of the four years that I was in that Department I had to come in here with a Supplementary Estimate looking for more. We have here what are called in the sort of terminology that is used in the whole estimates game, savings. The more accurate description of them really is, I think, enforced cutbacks. To see enforced cutbacks of £8 million less a few thousand pounds in industrial development in 1981 to my mind is a little ominous when we have the Minister for Industry and Energy talking about the inevitability of unemployment reaching 145,000 people shortly and when we hear at the same time or in the same interview talk about the lack of likelihood that at any time in the next five years the number of unemployed will drop below 121,000. At the same time we have a saving or cutback of £8 million in the budget of the principal industrial development body in this country.

It is, of course, painted with the usual sort of phrases that are used here that a high level of investment by the private sector in the building of factories was secured by the IDA. But, that was going on right through 1980 when it was probably possible to estimate that and, in fact, the outturn in terms of investment by private interests in factory building has been somewhat disappointing in 1981 and rather less than one would have anticipated. Part of that, at least, has been due to the present change in policy after the change of Government, whereby the view of the Department of Finance has again been allowed to prevail that there is no real saving for the Exchequer by having public buildings funded by private funds — an argument that I cannot follow. Indeed, the provisions that were made in the Finance Act, 1981, in regard to industrial buildings, which the House may recall, would have led and I am sure probably did lead to greater use of private funds because it was more attractive from a tax point of view to use them in the provision of factories. Therefore, I find it difficult to accept that the level of investment by the private sector in the building of factories is lower than might have been expected. If it was, it was because it was discouraged and that is what makes this saving or cutback all the more ominous and worrying.

If at a time like this large cuts are being enforced on the IDA budget, what will the cuts be like next year? What account is being taken of the possibility of 145,000 people being unemployed, a situation which is apparently expected fatalistically by the Tánaiste? I hear stories about efforts being made to cut the 1982 Estimates below the 1981 figures which we were told in respect of some Departments were far too low. Cuts of as much as one-third are being sought in the Estimates for some bodies in 1982 and the stories one hears are probably borne out by the fact that £8 million has already been cut from the IDA at a time when their services are more sorely needed than ever.

The other sector of commercial activity covered by this Department as at present constituted is tourism. In the light of the campaign by the Provisional IRA under the guise of H-Block from April onwards and the enormous damage caused to tourism from Britain and all other markets, I would have expected more money to have been spent in the second half of the year to repair some of the damage. That was the intention of the Government which left office in June. We see at the beginning of this Supplementary Estimate that an additional sum of £930,000 is required for Bord Fáilte but further on in the small print there is a reference to "less savings on subhead E.2". When one looks back to the original Estimate one sees that subhead E.2. also refers to Bord Fáilte and the saving there is £930,000. The additional amount given to Bord Fáilte in a year of unprecedented difficulty and horrible losses for our tourist industry is, therefore, zero. By printing the figure of £930,000 in large type and describing it as an extra amount for Bord Fáilte the impression is sought to be created that this is a net gain, but when one sees "less savings on subhead E.2." one realises that the additional amount is zero.

We must be careful of public funds and times are difficult but has any industry being subjected to a greater onslaught this year than tourism? This is all the more tragic because up to April the prospects were excellent. There was substantial worthwhile growth of 4 per cent in real terms in each of the first four months of this year and if this pattern had continued throughout the whole year we would have gained perhaps £100 million extra in foreign tourism receipts. The Bord Fáilte estimate is that we are down 2 per cent, although this it not as much as had at one time been expected. That is, of course, a 2 per cent drop on a disappointing year in 1980. I do not think that much could have been done while the H-Block Campaign was going on, one of the objectives of which was to damage the economy and particularly the more vulnerable areas such as tourism. However, when that campaign ended great efforts should have been made and money should have been spent to retrieve some of our losses on the British market.

Bord Fáilte felt it was too recent and that it would have been throwing good money after bad.

That may be, but if they did not want to spend it on a British market they could have expended it on other markets. In any case I query somewhat any decision not to spend money on the British market because we have an enormous advantage due to our currency relationship with sterling. Unhappily for us the period during which we have had this disadvantage has coincided with times of unusual violence, even by Northern Ireland standards, and unusual provocation for British people here. The fact remains that we have this tremendous commercial advantage which makes us in financial terms very attractive to the British tourist. Notwithstanding the other difficulties, it is foolish not to try to cash in during the short term on the glorious opportunity which we may not have in the future. If for example, Britain joins the EMS where will we stand? Our pound may reach parity with sterling either by moving up itself or by sterling coming down and we would lose our advantage.

Subhead R.3. involves a margarine subsidy and this was introduced in the July budget. I am somewhat surprised that the Government have felt it necessary to bring in such a subsidy. About three-quarters of the margarine we consume is manufactured here and the rest is imported but the raw materials for itsmanufacture are entirely imported.

Margarine is in direct competition with only one commodity, butter, which is manufactured as to 100 per cent from an Irish natural resource. I query the wisdom of a subsidy on this commodity, although the amount is small. As a matter of principle I would suggest that in the preparation of the 1982 Estimates this item should be excluded as being of little or no value to the consumer and tending to reduce the consumption of a product entirely manufactured from Irish raw materials.

The bread and flour subsidies have been enormous. They were introduced in May by one Government and were continued in July by the next Government. What does not appear to be covered in the Supplementary Estimate, as far as I can see, is an item referred to in the budget speech of the Minister for Finance in July. He was talking about the increased subsidies provided for in the budget on bread, flour, milk, butter and margarine. He said that the 1981 cost of that decision would be £6 million, and he continued:

Further price increase applications in the present year could require up to about £5 more in subsidies on foot of the undertaking in the programme. I am making the necessary provision for this. This is very important for the weaker sections of the community.

I do not see provision in the Supplementary Estimate for that additional sum which the Minister for Finance allowed for. Will it be implemented? If that is the case will the Minister make that clear, or is it the case that there are not likely to br any more increases in the price of these items?

Has the Minister taken into account that the prices of some of these items will be reduced in any event as a result of the increased value of the Irish pound? This would apply particularly to margarine, most of the ingredients of which are imported and probably paid for in sterling. Is it necessary to provide any subsidy for that commodity now that it should be going down in price anyway?

Last month the Minister referred to a small number of price decreases consequential on the increased value of the Irish pound. I have been waiting with some impatience for further announcements of that kind. A whole range of commodities should be subject to price decreases for that reason and the Minister should inform the House what the position is about a great many of them. I include oil products particularly because the improvement in our relations with the US dollar has been even more marked than our relationship with the pound sterling.

The Minister referred to £657,000 needed for capital financing in regard to certain capital goods exports. I am delighted to learn that the scheme was so successful in 1981. I recall introducing early this year, in conjunction with the banks and possibly the ICC, a scheme for the credit financing and promotion of non-capital goods of certain types which previously had not been aided by any export credits or by a credit-financing scheme of any kind. It was not ready at the time of the preparation in 1980 of the 1981 Estimates and therefore it could not be included in them. Is the scheme now operating and, if so, what is the cost to the Exchequer? It was designed to cover goods often sold on credit, relatively short-term of 180 days. Up to then the scheme had been in respect of capital goods, where the credit varies between two years and five years and sometimes two years and seven years. In our present circumstances of balance of payments difficulties, the scheme I introduced for non-capital goods is vitally important and I should like to know how it is getting on, what use is being made of it and whether the banks and others are co-operating fully in its implementation, and what is the cost to the Exchequer likely to be?

It is interesting to look at the situation in regard to the Irish Film Board. It has become topical again. I had quite an argument a year ago to try to get a sum of £500,000. I thought it was a rather derisory sum and I debated whether I should take it out of the Estimate entirely because it was so small. I failed to get any more capital and I decided to leave it in, inadequate as I thought it to be. Now I find it has been reduced by £390,000, that the £500,000 which I considered to be derisory has been reduced to £110,000. This may account in part for the considerable dissatisfaction that exists in a certain area of the Irish film industry.

It is worth stressing that the figure relates to the Irish Film Board only and not to the National Film Studios where, by all accounts the situation has become even worse than in recent years, and that is saying a lot. In view of the big reduction in the amount I proposed to make available, I think the Minister should give us full information on the present situation in the studios and in the Irish Film Board. That would be particularly desirable in view of the controversy between members of these boards who have been attacking one another in the public press. This is an opportunity now to have an authorative statement on the entire matter as the Minister sees it. I do not think the situation is helped by this huge cut-back in the Supplementary Estimate, a decrease of almost 80 per cent in the allocation which I thought was derisory and useless.

I should like to say a word about the grant-in-aid to Córas Tráchtála. I approve thoroughly of it because from the point of view of export promotion it is about the best value a country in our difficulties at the moment can get from the expenditure of public money.

The argument is sometimes heard that many manufactured exports seem to be happening in any event because many of the bigger IDA supported foreign industries recently established here start within a short time of production to export anything from 95 per cent to 100 per cent of their output, often of valuable products, and appear to do that without any assistance from CTT or anyone else in Ireland and cause great benefit to accrue to our balance of payments and our exports, and that it appears to be happening almost inevitably. I want to make it clear that that argument which comes, from among other places, from the Department of Finance now and again is fallacious.

The very success of those companies as major exporters from here is attributable to the enormous expenditure they have already incurred in marketing programmes from their head offices in their own countries. If that tremendous kind of promotion, development, research and marketing which is so very heavily financed by their parent companies in the United States, or wherever, were not undertaken, these factories would not establish at all or, if they did, they would not have the markets ready made for them by that considerable expenditure on marketing.

Rather than disproving the need for export promotion, marketing promotion and assistance here for Irish companies, the facts of the situation in regard to the large foreign companies prove and support that contention. The tragedy for many of our Irish companies is that they have never spent the proportion of their turnover or of their profits on marketing, on sales promotion and on developing products which the market place demands, which these big American and other foreign corporations have spent. These other companies are reaping the benefit of the investment and the work. Irish companies have not made that kind of investment, even proportionately. Unhappily, they are very heavily dependent on an export development organisation or a promotional organisation such as CTT. I know of nowhere in which additional moneys might more usefully be spent.

The figure of £1,964,000 referred to in subhead G. as the additional figure, in the light of what the Minister said, does not really represent additional spending. It represents the clearing of some sort of accumulated deficits they had, and it represents the cost of the rather accelerated programme they began early in 1981. It does not represent anything new which developed in recent months for example. I would have thought that CTT need very badly to continue to develop new programmes and new strategies, and to spend further moneys in support of Irish export promotion.

I hope they will get that encouragement. It is fair to say that in the past number of years they got it from me. I recognised the need for what they were doing. It is true to say in relation to an organisation such as this that the greater the recession or the greater the general economic difficulties, the greater the need for more rather than less spending on organisations of this kind.

Much of the additional allocation for the Shannon Development Company seems to relate to losses which have developed in a company which is a subsidiary of Shannon and Aer Rianta jointly, called Castle Tours. It is very unsatisfactory that a company like that is losing significant amounts of money. I suggest to the Minister, and I have some local knowledge of the situation, that part of the problem is that it is a joint venture between two rather different State agencies. It should be the responsibility of one of them only. I venture to suggest that the more appropriate one in all the circumstances to have sole or exclusive responsibility for this Castle Tours subsidiary would be the Shannon Development Company. If that happened, we might have a more satisfactory outcome than appears to have been the trading outcome of that subsidiary in recent years.

I have dealt with the main items involved in the Supplementary Estimate. I have raised a number of queries in relation to quite a number of them. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say in connection with these matters.

I had better clear out of the way quickly the question of the 1981 Estimates so that we can get on to less contentious material. In taking exception to what I said, Deputy O'Malley dealt with the matter by looking at the Estimates situation globally, and by saying that the net result, when all the sums had been done, was that he had actually made excessive provision at the beginning of the year when he was in charge of the former Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy. He asked how can he now be accused of having been responsible for a bogus Estimate when it now turns out that overall apparently money would be saved rather than required when the savings were taken into account, if one were to exclude the subsidy element.

That argument misses the point. I did not allege that my predecessor's Estimate was made up of wholesale bogus sums. I distinctly recall speaking in the budget debate at the beginning of this year and saying that, at least to the superficial observer, several Departments — and it seemed to be politically significant which ones they were — had Estimates which did not look fishy. Deputy O'Malley's was one of them. It had a sizeable increase over the preceding year. So had the Department led by Deputy Colley, and so had the Department led by Deputy Wilson.

I pointed out that the Estimates for other Departments — and from memory I can remember Agriculture and Posts and Telegraphs, although I am not absolutely certain about the latter — seemed to me to be grossly underestimated on any assessment of what would happen. I did not make that point at the time about the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy, and I am not making it now either. I am making the point that, in regard to one specific subhead, a decision must have been taken — it is not visible to me any longer how it happened — presumably at joint Government level, to slice money arbitrarily off a figure, when they must have known the remaining figure was not consistent with the survival of that service.

What happened in regard to the heads I am talking about was as follows. If Deputy O'Malley wants to contradict this — and he may have his own reasons for not wishing to contradict it — I will not go to the fair over that. I will give way to him and withdraw what I said if he can explain this cut of £1 million which, admittedly, is only a drop in the bucket of the financial scandal in which last year's Estimates and budget operations were presented.

Perhaps it is niggling of me to complain about £1 million here or there, but this is the position in regard to the bread subsidy as I understand it. The outturn of the bread subsidy in 1980 was £14.325 million. That is what it cost the State to operate the subsidy in 1980. The estimate made by the Department of what was meant to be needed for 1981 was marginally greater than that. I do not know why I presume it was marginally greater because the population had grown marginally. The Department had estimated that at £14.5 million but the figure which we ended up with in the Estimate was £13.375 million, which was a difference of £1,125,000. It is a small thing in a big Department and very small compared with the mountain of fraud which the financial operations of the last Government represented 12 months ago. If Deputy O'Malley, when Minister, had some rational reason for agreeing to a cut of this sort I will give way to him if he wishes to explain it.

I can explain it in one or two sentences.

In respect of a debate like this the Minister must recognise that the Chair is the arbiter. There is no provision on a discussion on Supplementary Estimates which allows a Minister or anybody else to give way. When the Minister makes his reply anybody may ask a question but the Chair will decide on the order and I would ask the Minister to continue. When the Minister has concluded there may be question and answer.

I do not want to take an unfair advantage of him. If his position is that this did not happen, very well, but I would like to make my own feeling about it clear. It was not reasonable or possible to expect to operate in 1981 when the population was a little larger than in 1980 and one would expect that bread consumption would be marginally greater. It was not reasonable to estimate a figure which was more than a million pounds less than the outturn for 1980. That could only be done by reducing the bread subsidy or by suspending it towards the end of the year. It is the only item in connection with which I have made this allegation and it pales into insignificance compared with what some of my colleagues have had to complain about.

I am not sure if I will be able to deal with all the points made by Deputy O'Malley, but I will do my best. He spoke about what he called the ominous feature represented by the savings which have been made under various subheads in this Department. I do not quarrel with the general trend of what he is saying to the extent that it may be that some items of savings unhappily represent a drawing in of horns by some sectors of the economy. That has to be admitted in connection with the saving on the Bord Fáilte side, where money had been originally provided in the last Government's time for developments in hotels for grants for additional bedrooms and so on but which were not proceeded with by the unfortunate hotel owners due to the terrible year they have been having. This Deputy O'Malley fairly described. Of course there is a saving there, but it is one which we would rather not have made. On the IDA side, although I am not responsible for it now, I understand savings there on the capital side have arisen because claims for grants have come in more slowly than was anticipated. I understand it is not because projects have been cancelled or have fallen through. The position there is not as ominous or black as one might have feared on finding that savings were being made of this sort.

The Deputy also wondered why Bord Fáilte had not reacted to the bad situation of the tourist trade which emerged in the course of the summer by spending even more on promotion. They have been intensifying their promotional efforts in other markets and they have had very considerable success in the United States, which has been showing this year what is expected to end up as a 7 per cent increase in traffic; but it is not enough to counterbalance the very steep fall on the British market. I think Bord Fáilte were right when they said that the time was not propitious for extending expenditure on the British market, that a little grass must be allowed to grow over the memory of the graffiti and isolated but well-publicised incidents in which tourists were molested and their stay made disagreeable. I do not quarrel with their judgment and they certainly have increased promotion in other markets to some effect. We are in a long-term difficulty of course because we are competing with countries which have natural assets, particularly in terms of climate, which we cannot match. I think this could be turned to good advantage by developing a tourist market which is based on special interests and attracts people who are devoted to these interests rather than on assuming we are going to get plane loads of the vast tourist market of the kind that, happily for them, Spain, Greece and other countries with climatic advantages are able to enjoy.

The tourist industry here will always be fighting. If it drops its guard for a single season it will be paying the penalty for three or four seasons after that. I must pay tribute to the resilience which the hotel industry and others have shown in difficult times. It must have been very painful for them to do what Bord Fáilte exported them to do, to hold, as very many of them have done, their charges in 1981 to 1980 levels in money terms. That is a drop in real costs and in many cases they have held their terms down to 1979 charges. That must be painful for them. That, unfortunately, is the kind of resilience the world demands from them if they are to survive and flourish. I wish to remind the House in connection with the tourist industry, which is getting such a black press these days, that it has had bad years before and has bounced back. The year 1972 was the beginning of a very bad period in the tourist industry. The House will recall that in February of that year the shootings in Derry took place when 13 unarmed civilians were killed. That was followed by very turbulent demonstrations in Dublin in the course of which the British Embassy was burned. That had a high television visibility and was instantly reflected in the virtual collapse of the tourist trade that year and, to some extent, the following year; but it climbed back very well in 1975, 1976, 1977 and right up to last year.

The Deputy is perfectly right in what he said about the effect of the H-Block demonstrations. Their effect and the riot outside the British Embassy at the end of July was that hotel inquiries fielded by Bord Fáilte, which had been running at an average rate of 300 a day, dropped overnight to about six a day. They have come back since then, but that was a very severe blow and we do not want to minimise it. The private hotel sector are still feeling the ill results of it and it will have to show the kind of resilience which it has been trained to show in order to recover from these reverses for which it is not responsible but for which unfortunately it has to pay the penalty. That is something we are all paying the penalty for in a sense and is just one more result of our "patriots' " activities. I have said enough about them in another context and I will not say any more about them here.

Deputy O'Malley spoke critically of the margarine subsidy because it was in direct competition with butter which is a native product whereas margarine is made from imported materials. I admit the rationality up to a point, but butter is also the subject of a subsidy not falling under this Vote but under the Vote for the Department of Agriculture. On balance the Government are right to subsidise margarine because it is a food used particularly by the lower income groups and these are the people we are aiming at in the application of a subsidy system.

He spoke also about price decreases. I thought that ungenerous of him because I do not remember him announcing too many price decreases. I went out of my way not to claim anything unreasonable or to exaggerate the price decreases I was able to announce over the last month. I have a few more up my sleeve and the House can be assured that the Department are pursuing them with great vigour. I have nothing to lose by hastening their introduction and, although I am not responsible for the decreases, simple people who might be inclined to blame me for price increases would be inclined to thank me for price reductions. I have every motive to hurry them on and the Deputy can be assured that, if a change of political fortune takes place, whatever else he might find waiting for him in Kildare Street it will not be further price reduction applications. I will clear them whatever else may remain to be dealt with.

The Deputy spoke about the Irish Film Board and about his efforts to get a significant allocation for them. He said that even the £500,000 he had succeeded in extracting from his own Government was derisory. I agree they will not go very far with £500,000 and they will not go even that far with £110,000. I accept that, measured against the sort of thing we hope to see here eventually, £110,000 is a very small sum. The reason this survived the cuts being made by this Government is that in the six weeks or two months I was in charge of the industry side of the Department I was anxious to set up the Irish Film Board, which Deputy O'Malley — for reasons I do not understand — had not done when he had a chance. I think his reluctance had something to do with the strong views he held on the necessity to associate the Irish Film Board with the National Film Studios. I may be misrepresenting him, but I think that was his reason. His point was that, unless he could get a commitment that they would do something sensible with the studios, there was no point in setting up the board. I differed with that view because I felt that the Irish Film Board should be an enterprise which could stand on their own feet irrespective of what may happen to Bray Studios.

I was anxious to set up the board, even with only a token budget, as a gesture towards the professional interests who had been campaigning so long for the establishment of such an agency. It was set up on this shoestring budget. I appointed only three of the seven board members because I thought it only fair to let my successor in charge of Industry make his own appointments. I appointed the minimum number of members to get the board off the ground. There was nothing more sinister than that. I told the new board I was very anxious that of this £110,000 not a halfpenny would be spent on administration. In other words, I was very anxious that it should not develop an administrative machine at the expense of doing what they were supposed to do, namely, subsidise and encourage the making of films in Ireland, if possible by Irish film-makers. I hoped that by establishing the board, even with a token budget this year, there would be something there which would be difficult to remove and which would have a claim in future years for improved allocations. I hope they will succeed in doing the work which we all envisaged and which will justify their existence. I am sure I carry the House with me in wishing the board well.

Deputy O'Malley also spoke about export promotion. I was glad he spoke so encouragingly about it and emphasised its importance. I agree with everything he said in that area but he was critical of what he saw as the failure of CTT — or perhaps what he meant was that the Government would not finance them — to think up new ideas or to put new efforts into the marketing strategy on which we depend. He is not being fair either to the Government or to CTT in this regard. I agree with him about the necessity of foreign marketing and that the country's prosperity depends on it. It is for that reason that the special Employment Guarantee Fund was set up.

I pressed the Government to make a substantial allocation for grants for the recruitment of overseas-based marketing executives. The number of such executives employed by Irish companies is laughably small. I do not remember the exact figure, but it is in the small number of dozens. That seems to be a deplorable situation and I persuaded the Government, without any difficulty because they were all of the same mind about this, to allocate in these difficult times £1 million for this undertaking. That scheme will be administered by CTT in such a way that the money will go towards salaries for a year. Thereafter we will have to look again at this and perhaps the firms will be so convinced of the usefulness of these people that they will take up the pay bill of executives who would be entirely or largely over-seas based. That scheme is now under way in the sense that recruitment procedures are going ahead and I hope it will be a success.

The last thing the Deputy mentioned was the question of Castle Tours, who, unhappily, have lost so much money on the programme they operate, banquets and so forth, that they require £130,000 to take up their losses. I note his point that they should be the responsibility of one rather than two State-bodies and I will have that considered. I could not judge it now but I will certainly have it looked at.

I asked the Minister a question about the non-capital export credit financing and, perhaps, he will deal with it.

I understand that the Deputy was anxious to know why they did not figure in the Supplementary Estimate speech and the reason they did not is that, unlike the capital goods scheme, they do not attract an interest subsidy.

In relation to the alleged cost of £1 million on the original estimate for bread subsidy, the situation is that for many years past, perhaps 30, bread consumption declined annually here, as in all of the more advanced countries, and one could foresee at least one, and perhaps two, price increases of some significance in the price of bread this year. It seems to me not unreasonable to conclude that there would be a drop of about 7 per cent in those circumstances in the consumption of bread here in 1981. I provided accordingly. I could not foresee, nor could anybody, in November of 1980, when this was being decided, that two successive Governments in 1981, in May and July, would both introduce very large subsidies in the price of bread which had the effect not alone of preventing any increases that would have otherwise taken place but of substantially decreasing the price of bread. Accordingly, the consumption of bread in 1981 had at least maintained its 1980 level which it would otherwise not have done.

Vote put and agreed to.
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