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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Mar 1982

Vol. 333 No. 2

Report to House on Complaint by Deputy.

Shortly before the Dáil adjourned on 9 March last, Deputy Larry McMahon complained that, in a division that afternoon, some Members had entered the Chamber through the door of the Press Gallery after I had directed that the doors of the Chamber be locked. I knew nothing of the incident at the time and promised to have the matter investigated.

I have since ascertained that Deputies Proinsias de Rossa, Paddy Gallagher and Joe Sherlock did in fact use the door of the Press Gallery to enter the Chamber after the doors had been locked and that, as a result, they were present and able to vote in the first division that day. The door in question, I am told, never has been locked for a division and its use for entry to the Chamber had never been foreseen. The Deputies in effect took advantage of an unforeseen loophole in the normal arrangements for a division.

No point of order was raised during the division; the four tellers signed the Division Paper and, in accordance with Standing Order 60, I announced the numbers on the paper and declared the decision. I have instructed that in future all doors leading into the Chamber are to be locked. There will not, therefore, be any further unorthodox entries into the Chamber during a division.

In explanation of their action, the Deputies have indicated that the two new Members failed to hear the bells owing to the noise of the crowd present that day and that all three were impeded in reaching the Chamber by the crowds thronging the hall, corridors and the marble stairway. From my own observation and from reports, I am satisfied that, to say the least, our visitor control arrangements were not strict enough. I am satisfied also that both in the House itself and in the visitors' gallery our security arrangements and safety precautions were put at risk. For the future protection both of Members and visitors, I have had an urgent review carried out to ensure that the number of visitors admitted to the House and to the Gallery on occasions on which there is great public interest in our proceedings be kept within safety limits and within a range that our resources in staff can control. The decisions on this review will be communicated to the Whips today.

I sympathise with the position of the three Deputies in question but I also sympathise with the position of the press who will now be locked into the Chamber with the rest of us during a division. There is a further problem arising in this regard. Many Deputies in our party particularly—I am not sure about the other parties—now work in what was the school of art building and when there are a lot of people in the yard outside and in the hall it is extremely difficult to get to the House. Something will have to be done, either to have a fixed time for ringing the bells, to have ushers in that building notifying Deputies that bells are ringing or to have a longer period, which is preferable, for ringing the bells. This will have to be looked into very urgently if we are to ensure that all Deputies can be present at divisions. In this case the Taoiseach was the beneficiary of the vote but it is possible that Deputies could be missing and questions could be defeated by the Government or by us. Deputies should be allowed every possible chance of being here when the division bells go.

I think we should extend the time the division bells ring. That is the first point.

How do we decide how long?

We could ring the bells for three minutes and wait for four minutes.

I feel that the bells should continue ringing until the doors are closed; say, ring the bells for seven or eight minutes and then close the doors.

I am advised that stopping the bells is a warning for the Deputies to make haste to the division lobbies.

(Cavan-Monaghan): While the incident in question is perhaps understandable, as two of the Deputies were new and were here for the first time it was nevertheless unprecedented and quite serious. Rather than deal with this matter now in an ad hoc way by suggestions from Members of the House to the Chair, would the Chair consider referring the matter to the new Committee on Procedure and Privileges?

I would be glad to.

Did I understand the Chair to say that this incident was without precedent?

Yes. I did not witness the incident but I wonder what I would have done if I had witnessed it.

Can the Chair tell us if his inquiries have revealed if a member of the staff was available to intercept the Deputies but stood to one side to allow them to enter and did not report the matter to you as has been suggested? If that is the case, it should be part of your report but if it is not, the story should be scotched straightaway. This matter ought to be clarified.

I do not have any knowledge of that matter but Deputy FitzGerald will agree that two of the Deputies involved were new to the House. I have been here for some time but I did not realise that those doors——

The position is that an officer of the House was inside the House and observed them coming in; he seemed to consider deterring them but then decided to let them in and he did not report this matter to you. This story may be totally false, and if it is the story should not be circulated, but if it is true the question arises for decision.

I will report to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

I find it very difficult to hear Deputy FitzGerald and if he could speak more plainly and clearly I would appreciate it.

I raised this matter the last day. Are you notifying the new Committee on Procedure and Privileges or is it being left to a Member of this House to bring it to the notice of that committee?

I will bring it to the attention of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

And ask for a full investigation?

And you will then report their findings to the House?

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges will report to the House.

I am not happy with the report just given to the House. If the Chair does not pursue the matter I will be obliged to do so.

In view of the present situation in the Dáil, could the Ceann Comhairle review the outdated way of voting we have in this House? There must be a more modern method.

I will bring the matter to the attention of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

(Limerick East): During the seven months of the last administration we were looking for a sound and vision monitor in the interview room. Could you arrange that we will get one?

I will look into the matter.

Might I suggest that we congratulate the Deputies involved for their persistence and ingenuity?

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