Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 25 Mar 1982

Vol. 333 No. 4

Financial Resolution No. 2. - Excise—Hydrocarbons.

The Taoiseach

I move:

(1) That in this Resolution "the Order of 1975" means the Imposition of Duties (No. 221) (Excise Duties) Order, 1975 (S.I. No. 307 of 1975).

(2) That the duty of excise on mineral hydrocarbon light oil imposed by paragraph 11 (1) of the Order of 1975 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 26th day of March, 1982, at the rate of £18.85 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in section 6 (1) of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1981 (No. 28 of 1981).

(3) That the duty of excise on hydrocarbon oil imposed by paragraph 12 (1) of the Order of 1975 shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 26th day of March, 1982, at the rate of £13.20 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate specified in section 6 (2) of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1981.

(4) That, as on and from the 26th day of March, 1982, the rate of any repayment allowed under paragraph 12 (11) of the Order of 1975 in respect of hydrocarbon oil on which such repayment is allowable and on which the excise duty mentioned in paragraph (3) of this Resolution was paid at the rate of £13.20 per hectolitre shall be £11.41 per hectolitre in lieu of the rate allowable immediately before the 26th day of March, 1982.

(5) That, with effect on and from the 26th day of March, 1982, the following paragraph shall be substituted for paragraph 11 (4) of the Order of 1975:

"(4) A drawback equal to the amount of the duty shown, to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners, to have been paid by reason of the operation of this paragraph in respect of the mineral hydrocarbon light oil in question, shall be allowed on the exportation from the State or the shipment or deposit in a bonded warehouse for use as ship's stores of any mineral hydrocarbon light oil (including such oil which is shown, to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners, to be contained in any goods) chargeable with the said duty.".

(6) That, with effect on and from the 26th day of March, 1982, the following paragraph shall be substituted for paragraph 12 (2) of the Order of 1975:

"(2) A drawback equal to the amount of the duty shown, to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners, to have been paid by reason of the operation of this paragraph in respect of the hydrocarbon oil in question, shall be allowed on the exportation from the State or the shipment or deposit in a bonded warehouse for use as ship's stores of any hydrocarbon oil (including such oil which is shown, to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners, to be contained in any goods) chargeable with the said duty.".

(7) That the duty of excise on gaseous hydrocarbons in liquid form imposed by section 41 (1) of the Finance Act, 1976 (No. 16 of 1976), shall be charged, levied and paid, as on and from the 26th day of March, 1982, at the rate of £0.56 per gallon in lieu of the rate specified in section 6 (4) of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1981.

(8) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to move amendment No. 1 in my name.

An Ceann Comhairle

Amendment No. 1 is out of order.

Mr. J. Bruton

I should like you to indicate the basis on which you have ruled that this amendment is out of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to the resolution.

Mr. J. Bruton

I hope you will allow me to make a submission to you as to why I believe this amendment——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is out of order and the Deputy is not allowed to discuss it when it has been declared out of order.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am not discussing it. I am making a submission to the Chair in the hope that you might be able to give consideration to the arguments I am making. My argument is as follows. This resolution will increase the price of petrol. I believe it is possible for the Government to reduce the price of petrol, if they insist, by means of maximum price order, that all the oil companies, some of whom are already doing so, should reduce the prices they are charging at retail levels for petrol in line with the fall which has occurred in oil prices internationally. The imposition upon the people that will derive from this resolution could be mitigated if the Government had the courage to take this action. The amendment I am proposing which requires them to do so is completely germane to the thrust of the resolution before the House. I regret that so far you have not seen your way to allow it. I hope that on reconsideration, and in view of what I have just said, you will allow it.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not my intention to try to block the Deputy again, but this concerns the price of petrol whereas the resolution deals with tax.

Dr. FitzGerald

Which affects the price of petrol.

Mr. J. Bruton

The effect of the tax is to increase the price of petrol so there is no valid distinction between the two. To the man in the street the effect of the resolution before the House is to increase the price of petrol. In order to help them I am suggesting to the Government a means by which they could reduce the price of petrol by insisting that the oil companies pass on to the Irish consumer reductions in prices that they are passing on to the British consumer. I see no reason why the British consumer should benefit from reduced oil prices on the stock markets of the world while the Irish consumer is not allowed to do so, and an Irish Government have not got the courage to take them on.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can raise that matter on another occasion. It could not be inserted here.

Mr. J. Bruton

Why not?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not relevant. This deals with tax only, and it would be totally out of place to put it in here. The Deputy can raise it on another occasion, but not in the context of this resolution.

Mr. J. Bruton

I know I can raise it on another occasion. I do not have to be told that. I will raise it on another occasion.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows better than anyone that it does not come within the ambit of this resolution. The Deputy can discuss it another time, but not on this resolution.

Mr. J. Bruton

I submit that your ruling is completely wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have been advised on this matter and I had long consultations on it.

Mr. J. Bruton

You did not. You could not.

An Ceann Comhairle

I did have consultations. The Deputy submitted it over an hour ago.

Mr. J. Bruton

The fact of the matter is that Estuary Fuel Ltd. and Maxol have reduced the price of petrol on the Irish market because of the reduction in the world price. It is now up to the Government to insist that the other oil companies do likewise. I am availing of the first possible opportunity to raise this important matter in this House. If the Irish Government have not got the courage to take on the oil companies, that is a matter which should be taken up in this House. I regret that you are availing of what I believe to be a very narrow interpretation of Standing Orders to prevent this matter——

The Taoiseach

On a point of order—

Mr. J. Bruton

—— which affects the price of petrol in exactly the same way from being aired here.

The Taoiseach

I want to make this point of order to you, a Cheann Comhairle. Deputy Bruton is making certain statements about Government action or inaction in regard to the price of petrol. I am in a position to reply very fully to the point he is making but, if the case he is making is not in order, order prevents me from replying to him. I wish you to protect me in this difficulty in which I find myself. I can speak at some length about the price of petrol and reductions and so on, but I am prevented from doing so. I cannot accept a situation where Deputy Bruton can make these accusations without any right of reply on my part.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton is totally out of order on this resolution. I am not saying he is not permitted to suggest on another occasion that the Government should do that, but not on this resolution. More than anyone else here Deputy Bruton should know that.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am glad to hear you say that more than anyone else I should know that. I regard that as flattery coming from you.

An Ceann Comhairle

I made that ruling after a lot of advice and consultation.

Mr. J. Bruton

My view of this resolution quite clearly is that it is introduced now in a different context, although it is almost identical to the resolution introduced in January. In January the resolution introduced here did not involve an increase in the price of petrol which was being imposed by means of taxation. But at that time the position was that no oil company had a proposal to reduce the price of petrol and there was no possibility open to the Government to negative the effect of any tax increase by insisting on a reduction in the price charged by the oil companies. At that time the conditions did not exist in which the companies had the capacity to reduce the price.

However, on this occasion, that is possible to the Government because two oil companies have reduced their price in the past 24 hours. In looking at this resolution the House must take cognisance of the fact that it is doing so now in a very different climate as far as petrol prices are concerned than it would have done were it looking at it in January. I believe therefore that the House must take note, in its attitude to this resolution—and I believe Deputies on all sides should do so —of the fact that the Government, at least so far, have not been prepared to take any action to force the oil companies to reduce their retail prices.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have given the Deputy a lot of time. I am very surprised at Deputy Bruton that he should now make statements like that and question me or say that I did not examine his resolution. The control of the price of petrol is outside the scope of this and outside the scope of the tax code. Deputy Bruton knows it and I am very surprised at him persisting in this when it is not relevant to this resolution.

Mr. Barrett

(Dún Laoghaire): Are we not being asked here this evening to agree to an increase of 8p on the gallon of petrol?

An Ceann Comhairle

Tax, it has nothing to do with the price.

Mr. Barrett

(Dún Laoghaire): Exactly. Surely if one does not agree with putting on an increase, the only way one can overcome it is put down an amendment in an endeavour to have the Government not impose an increase. Surely then we are entitled to express our view that, in view of the world price of oil, we do not agree that 8p should go on at this stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

It still has nothing to do with the world price. A ruling has been made, Deputy Barrett. It has nothing to do with the price of petrol. This is an increase in the tax. There will be opportunities for discussing the maximum price order for petrol on another occasion but not on this resolution. That can be discussed on the General Resolution on the budget but not now.

Mr. G. Birmingham

In seven months in this House this is my third budget. But on the two previous occasions we scrutinised very carefully the impact on the consumer price index of every proposed tax increase. We considered it in terms of fractions of a penny and fractions of a percentage point. It is quite impossible to consider the implications of this resolution without regard to what is happening overall. Overall there is potential for a reduction in the price of petrol. To pretend otherwise is to insist that the House adopt a blinkered approach to this resolution.

An Ceann Comhairle

But you cannot put down an amendment to do that on this resolution. If the Deputy likes to have a discussion——

Mr. J. Bruton

Perhaps I may clarify something, Sir, for your assistance. I have submitted to your ruling with reluctance and in disagreement with you but I am not moving my amendment; it is not possible because you have ruled it out of order. However, I am now speaking to the resolution and, as Deputy Birmingham has correctly pointed out, one of the germane factors in deciding whether or not this resolution should be allowed is its impact on the consumer price index. One can only know its impact on the consumer price index if one knows the attitude the Government are taking or are not taking—and this evening it seems to be a case of not taking at the moment anyway—in regard to the possibility of reducing the price to compensate for the increase in the taxation on the price of petrol.

An Ceann Comhairle

Which is very different but the Deputy's amendment is totally out of order.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am glad, Sir, to have been able to clarify that.

The Taoiseach

A Cheann Comhairle, I want to make a point here——

Mr. J. Bruton

Sir, I must insist that the only basis on which I can be interrupted by the Taoiseach is on a point of order.

The Taoiseach

I want to make a point of order. My point of order is that the resolution before us deals with the tax, and it is 7p excise duty not 8p. If the Opposition spokesman is entitled to go into the price of petrol to the consumer then I assume, by way of reply, I will be entitled to go into that, deal with the arguments he makes and indicate to the House that we will be making a Maximum Prices Order dealing with the price of petrol later on and all that is involved in the actual price of petrol to the consumer at the pumps. If that is going to be the position, if we can debate all of that, well and good. I want to know, if Deputy Bruton can make these arguments, whether I should be in a position to reply to them.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, you may only touch on them but they may not be debated on this resolution.

The Taoiseach

As long as that is clear.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I ask the Taoiseach if this resolution, if moved, will have any effect on the consumer price index?

The Taoiseach

The effect of the price of petrol on the consumer will be dealt with by the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism by a maximum prices order which he will be making this evening. That is what will be operative from the point of view of the consumer. That is what will determine the effect on the consumer price index.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I ask the Taoiseach if the result of this resolution and the consequent maximum prices order to be made this evening will be an increase in the price of petrol to the consumer?

The Taoiseach

If you wish, a Cheann Comhairle, we can give the House details of the Maximum Prices Order but I understand that your ruling is that at present we are only discussing this Financial Resolution. The Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism will be making a maximum prices order this evening about the price of petrol.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am sure, Sir, you would have regarded it as relevant to this resolution to know what effect it will have on the cost of living. Certainly you have ruled it to be relevant on previous occasions. One can know the effect on the cost of living of this resolution only if one knows what will be the content of the maximum prices order to be made this evening. I would ask the Taoiseach to indicate to the House whether or not the increase in taxation here will be reflected in full in a Maximum Prices Order, in an increase of an equivalent amount in the retail price.

The Taoiseach

I would prefer that the Minister concerned would disclose the details of the prices order that he will be making. At this stage I must point out that the prices applying will vary from brand to brand so there is no composite, universal price for all brands.

Mr. J. Bruton

Might I ask the Taoiseach upon what basis will the price vary from brand to brand and the extent of the variation.

The Taoiseach

On the basis of a recommendation made by the prices commission.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I ask the Taoiseach if the prices commission have met this evening in order to consider the matter?

The Taoiseach

No, the Government have had this matter under consideration for some time.

Mr. J. Bruton

How is it possible for the prices commission to make a recommendation in respect of the consequence, in the form of a maximum prices order, of a resolution imposing additional taxation which was announced only today if the National Prices Commission have not met today?

The Taoiseach

They never do that.

Mr. J. Bruton

How is it possible then?

The Taoiseach

The Minister——

Mr. J. Bruton

I think it would be better that I ask my question before the Taoiseach attempts to answer. I should like to know how it is possible for the National Prices Commission to make a recommendation as to the appropriate increase in the retail price of petrol — which the Taoiseach has told us will be variable from brand to brand — consequent upon this resolution, given that this resolution was not circulated until about 6 o'clock this evening, and the Taoiseach has told us that the National Prices Commission have not met. Therefore how can he possibly base the maximum prices order which will be made this evening on a resolution published only this evening?

The Taoiseach

The Minister will make an order tonight taking all the relevant factors into account, including a recommendation on prices made to him some time ago by the National Prices Commission. The maximum prices order which the Minister normally makes following the budget will on this occasion be based on the budget and the situation in regard to prices.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am very glad to see that the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism and the Minister for Industry and Energy are present in the House. I invite whichever is the relevant Minister to indicate to us the terms of the maximum prices order. The order that will be made tonight springs directly from the resolution before us. I do not think we can properly consider this resolution unless we know its consequences in terms of the maximum prices order.

The Taoiseach

The maximum prices order is sometimes made the day after the budget or a couple of days after. I suggest that order demands that we deal with the resolution before the House now.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is not possible for us to deal with the terms of the maximum prices order separately from this resolution because it will not come before the House separately from the resolution. This is the only available opportunity for us to deal with it. I hesitate to make an accusation of this sort but it would appear to me for some reason that is wholly mysterious to me — I can see no evident ulterior motive — that the Taoiseach is unwilling to indicate to us the terms of the maximum prices order. I cannot see any reason why he should be unwilling and I invite him in a good spirit to indicate the terms of the order. It is not a great mystery. It will be made tonight anyway. He has beside him both Ministers directly concerned so he cannot claim to be insufficiently briefed on the matter. If he cannot fill in the gaps, I am sure they can. I ask him in all reasonableness to indicate the terms of the maximum prices order.

As Deputy Birmingham pointed out earlier, in the past we indicated the CPI effect of a particular increase in taxation and I was happy to do that when I was Minister for Finance. I was always happy to give that information. We cannot get terms of the maximum prices order. The Taoiseach appears reluctant to give that information to the House. I appeal to him now to reveal it; if he does not do so I am afraid I shall have to adopt another attitude.

The Taoiseach

I will not be threatened by Deputy Bruton on this or on any other matter. The position is that we are dealing with a Financial Resolution. Subsequently the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism will be making a maximum prices order. When this Financial Resolution is dealt with, I am prepared to put before the House the terms of that order. At this stage I can give the House some indication of some particular prices but all the prices are not ready——

Mr. J. Bruton

I must say this is a most outrageous procedure. The Taoiseach is refusing to tell the House the terms of the maximum prices order that will be made tonight. We must know the terms of the order but yet he is deliberately concealing this information from the House. He is a Deputy of long standing in this House and he should be ashamed of concealing such information. I have sought to get it from him in the best of good spirits, not seeking to adopt anything other than such an approach, but he has declined to give that information. I must insist that such information be given. We cannot assess the effect if we do not know how it will affect the cost of living and we will not know that unless we are told the terms of the maximum prices order.

The Taoiseach

I should like the guidance of the Chair. It seems to me we are going to confuse two matters — one is the Financial Resolution before the House and the other is the maximum prices order to be made by the Minister. What does the Chair wish me to do?

An Ceann Comhairle

It appears we have reached an impasse. If the Taoiseach could give some information it might help to resolve the problem. I am not too sure if it is necessary but perhaps for the information of the House the Taoiseach could give some information.

The Taoiseach

In order to be as helpful as possible I will ask the Minister to read out the terms of the order in so far as the particular brands concerned have been settled. As I indicated already, some of the prices have not yet been determined but in so far as they have been determined by the Minister I will ask him to disclose them.

Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism (Mr. O'Malley)

An hour ago negotiations were still going on with two companies and I do not want to say anything about them. Within the past couple of days and today we had come to an agreement with a number of other companies. Taking into account the increase of 8p per gallon between excise duty and VAT and the decrease we have now agreed with the companies, the net increase in the price of Esso premium petrol will be 0.4p per gallon and in the case of Shell 1p. The order will be finalised tonight but I will not say any more than that.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am very glad we succeeded in eventually getting this information.

Mr. Murphy

The Deputy is slightly deflated.

Mr. O'Malley

For the information of the Deputy, the effect on the CPI would be negligible.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am very glad we succeeded in eliciting this information from the Minister concerned.

Mr. Murphy

The Deputy does not look very happy.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am very happy to see a reduction in what would otherwise have been a significant increase in the price of petrol. I was very anxious that this should be done. I issued a statement today to the press in which I asked the Government to do precisely what they are doing. I am glad that they have negotiated but what strikes me as somewhat odd is the fact that in respect of two of the companies who are distributing petrol the reduction they are proposing is 15p yet in respect of Esso the Government have succeeded only in negotiating a reduction of 8p — barely half of what other companies are capable of doing even though all the companies are buying oil on the market. It would appear the Government have been only half as effective as they should have been.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton should get back to the resolution and from now on we should stick to the terms of it.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am surprised that the Government have been less effective than they should have been in negotiating a reduction in price. Broadly speaking, I believe my amendment has had a beneficial effect and I am glad that this reduction has taken place.

Question put and agreed to.