Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 May 1982

Vol. 334 No. 9

Estimates, 1982. - Vote 44: Defence (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £204,113,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1982, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by the Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Defence).

Before the debate was adjourned I was directing the Minister's attention to the problem facing the Army, the Department and the Minister in relation to the housing of Army personnel. This is a problem that falls into three distinct categories. The first would be the housing of troops who live in military barracks. A great improvement has been made over the past ten years in this connection but particularly in the areas that have been reactivated as military posts since the early seventies. I recognise, as do all who are interested in defence matters, the contributions made by successive Governments in this field especially as regards — and I speak for the areas with which I am familiar — Dundalk, Gormanston, Castleblaney and Monaghan. Very fine new living accommodation has been provided at these locations and it is only proper that those who serve in the Defence Forces should have first class billets provided for them. In the areas mentioned the new accommodation is greatly appreciated. So are the new dining hall facilities at these centres. It is only right that the military barracks we inherited from the British administration should be brought up to date. Investment in them is well worthwhile and is greatly appreciated by the troops who are serving there. I hope this programme will be extended and continued in the country generally in the future.

The second category is that of married quarters, the area which probably gives rise to most contention and friction within and without the Army when Ministers or Deputies are dealing withe problems relating to soldiers housed in this type of accommodation. The Minister might profitably direct his attention and energy to this area. With one or two rare exceptions there is no doubt that the housing accommodation provided in married quarters is substandard.

The Army housing situation in Dublin is relevant and I have no doubt the Minister will try to ensure that the position throughout the country will be eased. The 24 families in Griffith Square have been moved to Tallaght. The Arbour Hill quarters were inspected by Dublin Corporation and of the 81 units 70 were found to be substandard. A similar situation exists at Cathal Brugha Barracks. I did service there and I know that years ago the accommodation was substandard. I appreciate that the Minister only recently took up responsibility in the Department and I feel sure he will take action to remedy these difficulties which we have inherited over a number of years.

The situation in Dublin exists also in other barracks and it contributes to low morale among the men, who are obliged to live in such terrible accommodation. I submit that the Department profitably might relinquish their role in the provision of married quarters and hand over their responsibility to the local authorities in towns and cities in which garrisons are stationed — that the local authorities would take over, in their general housing programmes, the responsibility to house Army personnel.

In Dundalk we have had a satisfactory experience in this regard. The local authority took over completely the responsibility to provide Army housing and we have not found that their housing list has contained any more soldiers than other categories. In Dundalk, the married quarters were demolished 10 years ago and replaced by a local authority housing scheme. Not all of those houses were allocated to Army personnel and we do not seem to have any trouble about providing accommodation for soldiers, whose names appear on the housing list side by side with those of ordinary applicants. Per head of the Army population in the area we have had less difficulty than exists elsewhere, according to what Deputies have told me.

I am suggesting that the Department should relinquish their role in this matter. They could transfer some of their land holdings on a sort of quid pro quo basis to the local authorities who would then have suitable land available for house construction.

The Minister is well aware of the problem of overholding of married quarters. Serving soldiers faced with retirement find difficulty in getting alternative accommodation outside the Army. It is understandable that we are not all as good as we might be in making provision for the future, and soldiers are not any different from others in this respect. When they leave the Army they may not have made arrangements to provide themselves with alternative accommodation, and consequently there is the problem of overholding. This in turn causes the Department to withhold pensions with resulting general friction and hardship. Unfortunately, this gives a bad impression of Army life. I am sure many Deputies sympathise with the situation in which men who have given long service to the Army, and their families, find themselves when they leave the Army but have not made any arrangements for alternative accommodation.

The Minister referred to the Army Equitation School and rightly spoke of the achievements of our riders in 1981. I suggest there is a need for revision in this establishment. Heretofore all Army riders have been commissioned officers. Surely, the horses are capable of jumping successfully for NCOs? I am sure the horses would not be able to distinguish the quality of the cloth or the insignia on the shoulders of the riders. The figures are about ten to one in favour of non-commissioned officers and men and surely, if we have proficient riders from the rank of private, they could be promoted to non-commissioned ranks and compete as efficiently as commissioned officers. I am sure we would find privates and non-commissioned officers featuring in the winners lists.

I should like to refer briefly to courses for men in the ranks which would enable them to graduate to the commissioned grades. I hope further courses have been planned and that there will not be any limitation of the grades to which such soldiers subsequently could graduate. I hope that implementation of my suggestion would not limit the places for commissioned officers.

We should have no scarcity of educational courses for all ranks in the Army. I suggest that pre-retirement courses should be arranged for Army personnel who have spent quite a considerable time in the service, to prepare them for adjustment to civilian life and to train them for opportunities that might exist in civilian life when they have finished their commitment to the Army. The absence of these courses leads to a high wastage among junior NCOs and other ranks who should comprise the frame on which the Army of the future will be built. Without the continuity of supply of trained NCOs, the system will break down. Facilities should be provided in order to ensure that these people, who have been trained at great expense to the State, will be retained by the Army for its future.

I would like to mention the FCA and the Civil Defence Force who appear to be the Cinderellas of the Defence Forces. At times they are unjustly criticised and perhaps not as well treated by the Department or their services acknowledged as they should be. The FCA are as fine a body of men as you will find anywhere who, since their inception, have given dedicated service to the State. I am delighted to note in the Minister's speech that he has taken a decision to retain FCA personnel who are serving at present in a full-time capacity with the Permanent Defence Force. Many of them gave up their civilian jobs to do so and served, if needed, when the Permanent Defence Force was not up to its full strength. I am glad the Minister has reversed the decision which the former Minister contemplated making. The Minister's decision is very much appreciated by FCA personnel.

I should like to acknowledge a debt to these people, many of whom serve in my own constituency. In the early seventies they were required to man the barracks which were being re-activated at that stage and they gave up their time, freely and voluntarily, to do this. Some of them gave up their jobs to serve in a full-time capacity. This force is a vital adjunct to the Permanent Defence Force. In the seventies it was used very extensively to carry out security duties on vital installations and in assisting the Garda Síochána in manning road checks, especially in Border areas. Regrettably, for some reason the use of this force seems to have declined in latter times and there is a feeling among many of the personnel involved that they are being rejected. I understand FCA officers and NCOs are not allowed to serve together or to go on duty together in any permanent capacity. If there is a reason for this, in order to foster good public relations the Minister should explain the position to them. Perhaps there is a military reason for it. They are trained personnel who are disciplined and dedicated and quite willing to accept orders which are transmitted to them, but they would appreciate an explanation.

The other area of grievance is the question of taxation on the bounty or gratuity which they receive each year and which is only given to them provided they have completed a specified number of hours in the force during the course of the year. I do not think anybody would object to provision being made for this gratuity to be paid to them on a tax-free basis. After all, they have sacrificed many hours of their spare time at weekends to participate in field days and at mid-week in parades to bring their efficiency up to 100 per cent. They serve in all types of weather and accept any duties allotted to them. When they go to their summer camp they find that the Revenue Commissioners want to take a sizeable portion of the gratuity paid to them. They feel this is unjust and perhaps the Minister would examine this area and see if anything can be done.

Uniforms seem to be in short supply and is leading to a restriction on the numbers of recruits that can be accepted into the various units of the FCA. They would also like the question of the lack of transport to be examined. They often have to hire vehicles from private contractors. It has been pointed out to me that the Department of Defence auction what are described as surplus vehicles which in many instances are of good quality and could be easily brought up to a standard suitable for use by the FCA if they were allotted to the various companies and groups in different locations throughout the country. Much of this equipment is in good condition and it has been suggested to me that it is sold at knock-down prices to outside bidders when it could be profitably used by this force. Many of the people who serve in the FCA are competent drivers in civilian life and I do not think there should be any fear on the part of the Department of Defence to consider this aspect, rather than having these vehicles sold to outside people. If members of the FCA have to go to a rifle range there should be a military vehicle at their disposal.

While Civil Defence should be the responsibility of the Department of Defence, it is more particularly the responsibility of the Minister of State at that Department. This is an organisation of dedicated and disciplined people who give their service on a part-time basis in a voluntary capacity for the betterment of society generally. They are also to be commended for the sacrifices they make in this field. We are all aware in our local communities of the very great amount of work that they do in other fields outside civil defence. In my area they are noted for their great involvement with the mentally handicapped. One might say that has nothing to do with defence, but it is an indication of the commitment of these people that, when they have not got duties directly related to the Civil Defence organisation, they are prepared to put their time and energies at the disposal of the less advantaged members of society. I commend them for their work in these fields.

However they feel they are ignored. Indeed, the whole of the Civil Defence system requires re-examination in regard to its role and chain of command. I understand that the various county managers are the co-ordinators of this force. That is not a suitable arrangement because it is dependent on the interest of a particular individual whether any resources are made available or any interest shown in the force. Their equipment in all instances is decrepit and incapable of being used on most occasions. They possess a number of fire engines. I know that in Dundalk one of these engines is incapable of being used because of the absence of vital spare parts. There is little hope for the morale of an organisation which finds that the work for which they have been trained cannot be carried out because of their equipment being unusable. Some of their rescue trucks are of the fifties vintage and might also be examined in relation to the matter I have mentioned already in respect of the disposal of surplus Army vehicles. Perhaps the Civil Defence force could be provided with more up-to-date vehicles from that source rather than having such vehicles auctioned. The ambulances they use are also of ancient vintage. This type of equipment does not act as an encouragement to this force and certainly has been a contributory factor to the decline of their morale. Many of us are aware from our local communities the worthwhile efforts of this force, particularly in the blizzards and floods of the past winter when, unfortunately, their efforts were not co-ordinated. In many instances they were not called on to carry out the functions for which they have been trained and in other areas they were ignored totally. They are a corps of dedicated and responsible people, willing to offer their services to the nation and its people without cost to the Exchequer and should be accepted and acknowledged as such.

I hope the Minister will urge a review of the entire Civil Defence system so that these volunteers will be given renewed hope that their training can be put to worthwhile use. I might express the hope that they would themselves that, while they are being trained for events we all hope will never happen, at least they be afforded the facilities to prepare themselves and the nation for any eventuality, that, apart altogether from their primary function, they be available in the event of any natural disaster, when again their training could be put to good use.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. Coming, as he does, from the county of Kildare and the fact that that county has been synonymous with the Army over a long period of time, I have no doubt but that he will devote his undoubted energies to the problems confronting the Army. I know the Minister will continue the work of his Department in a proper and humane fashion and that his consideration at all times will be for the welfare and interests of those who serve the country in our Defence Forces.

Mr. Treacy

I should like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment and wish him long-lived success in all that he undertakes for the welfare and advancement of our Defence Forces.

With regard to the Estimate before the House, I sincerely hope that the moneys provided will prove to be adequate to meet the needs of the Department for the ensuing year, that we shall not be presented with a situation such as occurred last year during the term of office of the Minister's predecessor when, long before the end of the financial year, moneys ran out to the tune of some £10 million and there was none left to pay the wages of our soldiers and other personnel involved. The then Minister, James Tully, took over responsibility for that Department and was obliged to introduce a Supplementary Estimate last November to make good that shortfall in the amount of £28 million. Underestimation of this kind when dealing with matters appertaining to the defence of our country and its people is reckless, irresponsible and undermines our front line of defence. I am sure that must also have had a most demoralising effect on the men and women of our Defence Forces. Therefore, let us ensure that in respect of this Estimate we have an honest appraisal of the present situation, that we shall not witness again the situation that obtained when the Coalition Government took over in the summer of last year and found a financial crisis in the Department of Defence — a crisis, in fact, which ranged over all Departments of State at that time. With regard to the shortfall, I might say that I observe no provision in this Estimate for wage and salary increases for all the personnel involved in the Army, Naval Service and the Air Corps. I feel sure that omission will be rectified as all of us would be much happier, especially the men and women of the Defence Forces, if such provision was made in this Estimate today. Surely the amount of money involved is known, or can be estimated, and it is rather surprising it was not included in this Estimate today.

The basis of this State's foreign policy is neutrality and that policy was scrupulously upheld during the Second World War. It is demonstrated still in our continued refusal to join NATO. But, if we commit ourseleves to neutrality, then we have the consequential responsibility of taking steps to defend that commitment and that is the primary role of our Defence Forces. In that respect, while we can express some satisfaction at the strength of our Army, one must be concerned at the pitiful size of our Air Corps and Navy. This should be rectified.

The Minister for Defence has a special role to play. He should be the Minister who embodies the State policy of refusing to take sides on issues of international controversy. That is why the Minister's recent outburst at Edenderry was so unacceptable and so damaging. It was not his function to comment one way or the other on where the blame lay in the Falklands crisis. By doing so in such an intemperate fashion he compromised our neutrality and caused confusion in international circles about our policy stance in this sensitive area. The Minister owed it to the House to give an explanation for his outburst. He would have restored his credibility and that of the Government by coming into the House and withdrawing those remarks. His failure to do so has put a question mark over his suitability to hold the high office with which he has been entrusted. I am glad to note that the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism, has dissociated himself from the Edenderry outburst. I congratulate him for his courage and his honesty. The Minister will have an opportunity of clarifying his position when he replies to this debate. If he fails to do so he should take the only honourable course open to him. The House and the country know what that course should be.

I should like to join with the Minister and the other Deputies in paying tribute to our Defence Forces who provide an invaluable service of varying types for our people such as a peacekeeping force abroad and at home as an aid to the civil power. They play a magnificent role for which the House is very grateful. Wherever there is an emergency the Army, the Naval Service, the Air Corps, the FCA and Civil Defence can be relied on to give of their best. The services we value most highly are the security duties they perform, the wonderful work of the air rescue teams, the helicopter service, the ambulance mission service which brings gravely ill patients to places of special treatment. The evacuation of civilians from hazards like snow, and ice, the delivery of foodstuffs and medicines to isolated homes and communities and the provision of animal foodstuffs in snowbound areas, the delivery of essential commodities to hospitals and clearing snow by our Defence Forces are highly valued.

It seems to me that some of the services the Defence Forces are called on to perform could be done effectively by others for themselves. I have in mind particularly that the time, effort and cost involved in bringing money to and from our banks could be saved by the banks doing this work themselves or else paying for it. It seems wrong that in difficult times so many of our gardai and Army personnel are tied up in work of this kind when there is so much violence and vandalism throughout the country. It is difficult to understand why our banks do not provide this service for themselves, or if they need it they should be asked to pay for it.

The real work of the Defence Forces was brought home to everybody in the early part of the year when whole communities were cut off for days and large numbers of animals were dying of starvation in the appalling weather conditions. There were harrowing scenes in Wicklow and other parts of the country, as well as my own constituency of South Tipperary and West Waterford. I witnessed the speed and the effectiveness with which the Army and Air Corps acted on that occasion and the expertise, courage and daring of all the men concerned. In the first few days of the heavy snowfall last January I received an appeal for a helicopter service to provide fodder for a large number of animals, especially sheep, in the Nire Valley, Ballymacarbery area of Clonmel. The situation was critical. Many sheep were already dead and thousands more were threatened with death by starvation. When I received that message I immediately phoned the office of the Minister for Defence, the former Deputy Tully, and I informed him of the need for a helicopter service as quickly as possible to relieve the situation. The Minister's response was magnificent. Within an hour he communicated with me and told me to contact the local garda sergeant at Ballymacarbery, direct him to secure a landing base and to light a fire for any helicopter crew to observe. He told me also to communicate with the farmers concerned and advise them to bring to the landing base as many bales of hay as they considered necessary to feed the sheep involved. He told me that he would secure the largest helicopter possible and that it would arrive at the landing base at Ballymacarbery at 9 a.m. the following norming.

I conveyed the news to all concerned and the following morning I was present when the helicopter landed. It was manned by two officers and immediately the great work of loading the hay began. A local farmer who knew where the sheep were located was taken on board. The work continued for the greater part of the day. The helicopter ranged around the Comeragh mountains and the crew did not leave until they were satisfied that all the sheep had been catered for. I wish to put on record my appreciation of the two gallant officers concerned for the magnificent job they performed. They won the acclaim of all of us. Prior to that operation the officer commanding and the men of Kickham Barracks, Clonmel, had gone out through ice and snow and made their way up the Comeragh mountains to ensure that the people of that area were provided with food and fuel. I wish to express my heartfelt gratitude to all concerned in these operations — the then Minister for Defence, the officer commanding the men, the Garda at Ballymacarbery and everyone who was involved in any way in the outstanding work done on that occasion, work that was way beyond the call of duty.

These people braved the elements and endured great hardship in going to the aid of the civilian population. We can be very proud of them, but we must follow this up by showing our respect for them. We must ensure, for instance, that all those in the Defence Forces are provided with the best accommodation possible and also with the best conditions of work in terms of wage and salary scales. It is heartening to know that we have men of such calibre to call on in emergency situations. It is a great source of consolation to us to know also that in our Defence Forces there are people who are equipped, trained and ready to go to the aid of the civilian population in times of need. That is why we owe to the men and women of our Defence Forces — the Army, the Naval Service, the Air Corps, the FCA and the ancillary services — the best that this House can provide for them. It is as a result of the role played by our soldiers abroad that this country, though small in terms of world powers, has played a major role in maintaining world peace, especially in the Middle East.

Because our forces have the opportunity of serving in so many parts of the world there is a great incentive to young men and women to join the Defence Forces and to make Army life a career. Life in the Army can be productive, exciting and adventurous and is an attractive career for young men and women especially in times of such high unemployment. In these circumstances I urge the Minister to accelerate the recruiting drive and to find places in our Defence Forces for many more men and women.

In that context, too, I urge the Minister to make more places available in the Army apprentice training schools so that many more young men and, perhaps women also, may secure a trade which they can then pursue either in the Defence Forces or in civilian life. The places provided are only few. There are 60 vacancies in the Army sector and only 50 in the Air Corps section. Because of the high numbers of young men and women who cannot find employment the Minister should increase out of all proportion the intake into the apprentice training schools.

The repair and renovation of Army barracks has been referred to. It is a matter that is usually raised during the debate on the estimate. The conditions in which men and women of the Army and of the other Defence Forces services are obliged to live and work are in many instances deplorable. In many cases, the housing accommodation is disgraceful. I am aware of some that would be deemed by any local authority as being unfit for human habitation. There is a problem also in relation to members of the Defence Forces securing alternative accommodation on retirement. It is disgraceful for any Minister for Finance to harass and intimidate any tenant of an Army house, who gave a lifetime of service to the Army, to get out, and back up these threats by allegedly withdrawing appropriate gratuities at times. This is not right or proper. I ask the Minister to take steps to ensure that there is consultation between his Department and local authorities with a view to ensuring alternative housing for retiring Army personnel and all Army personnel who are in need of housing.

I know the Minister has a large military complex in his constituency, and I see from the Estimate that he is taking good care of it. That is rightly so. The improvement works and new buildings being provided at the Curragh, Naas and Portlaoise are badly required and perhaps long overdue. The Minister, however, should not be too parochial in these matters, especially when we are dealing with very limited financial resources. He must not forget the needs of the troops elsewhere. He must not fail to carry out improvement to other Army barracks. He must not fail to provide houses for troops in other centres.

Many of the old Army barracks were built during the British regime. They were invariably burned out during the War of Independence. They are drab, dreary and dilapidated buildings. They need to be replaced and brought up to modern standards. The Minister should undertake a scheme to provide new military baracks. I may become a little parochial in this regard when I say to the Minister the Kickham Barracks, Clonmel, is in the category I referred to — an old British barracks gutted by fire in the early twenties. Instead of trying to shore up these old barracks, new structures should be provided at centres such as Clonmel in keeping with the needs of a modern Army. We have an obligation to do all we can to improve the quality of life for our soldiers, naval personnel, Air Corps, and so on.

We receive reports about appalling working conditions and bad housing in respect of the Defence Force personnel at second hand in this House. We have a right to know what precisely is happening, especially so those who are spokesmen for their parties in matters appertaining to defence. I ask the Minister to consider sympathetically the establishment of an all-party committee of the House which would have a right to inspect these situations and report at first hand on what they see. I put it to the Minister that such an inspection team could do nothing but good and would improve the morale of all the people involved.

I ask the Minister to be generous in respect of the payment of wages, salaries and pensions to members of the Defence Forces. Pensions should relate to the high cost of living and the fall in value of money. Those who have to retire should be able to do so in the knowledge that their pension is such that they can live in decent comfort, whether they retire in the normal course or are obliged to do so through injury or illness. They should be able to retire in reasonable comfort without the fear of privation or want. I am not satisfied that the present pension schemes are adequate. They need to be reviewed. The Minister can afford to be more generous to the old IRA veterans from the War of Independence. The pension paid to many of these is paltry indeed. It is an insult to those who achieved for us the independence we enjoy today. There are 4,600 veterans left on pension. Regretfully they are pasing away at the rate of 600 a year. I urge the Minister to act quickly in this area. Let us respect them and help them now. We owe them a deep debt of gratitude. Let it be in a tangible form before they all pass away. Let it be a decent emolument. The cost of living bears very heavily on these old warriors and they have no one to fight for them. That is why I advert to their plight today.

In respect of special duties assigned to members of the Defence Forces, especially soldiers, particularly in the Border area, I was appalled to learn that the additional pay in respect of an officer amounts to £15.40 weekly and in respect of the men an increase over the normal rate of £13.30. That is absolutely scandalous. When one considers the hazards and dangers involved, the fact that these men are away from home and the disruption of family life involved, it is a miserable pittance. It needs to be looked at immediately and I ask the Minister to do so in equity and justice.

The last speaker refered to the lack of suitable uniforms especially for members of the FCA. I communicated with the Minister's Department to alert him about the problem — it applies to recruits also — of such personnel not being properly attired, part civilian and part military garb. It is demoralising and a reflection on the Force and something the public will not condone. The Minister should tell the House what is happening in respect of the provison of new uniforms. He should tell us if there is an adequate supply and what is being done to carry out effective distribution of the uniforms required, particularly in respect of FCA personnel.

It was a source of great pleasure to those of us who have an interest in Army life to learn that for the first time a course for potential officers from the ranks of NCOs was being embarked upon. It is the first time that NCOs are being afforded an opportunity to attain officer status. The move has been welcomed by Army personnel. Some 25 non-commissioned officers were selected last October to undergo a 12-month course with a view to becoming officers in the Army. That was a fine democratic decision and I applaud it. It is only right and proper that corporals and sergeants, men of high calibre, training, expertise and knowledge, should be afforded an opportunity to wear the Sam Browne belt. I regret that the figure was kept as low as 25 and I urge the Minister to increase it gradually to give men and women from the lesser ranks an opportunity of becoming officers in an army which they serve so well.

However, I am concerned about one aspect of this great scheme. I am satisfied from the information made available to me that proper notice was not given to our soldiers in respect of this proposal. The personnel who were likely to be called for this course were not properly informed. I am aware that in one instance a person was called by telephone. There was no communication with Army personnel or any information given. That has caused an element of suspicion and mistrust. It is a pity it happened in respect of the launching of this worthwhile project. I ask the Minister to ensure that when this course for potential officers from the ranks is embarked upon again proper notice is given. All ranks should be made aware of the course, especially the men and women directly concerned with the promotion opportunity from the ranks. Selection should be done in a fair and impartial manner.

It has also been represented to me, in respect of our troops serving abroad with the UN, that the rates of pay for officers and men as laid down by the United Nations are not paid to them. Is it true that the UN rates applicable to serving officers and men abroad is not being paid by the Department to our personnel? If that is so the Minister should tell the House why. Why should we pay our personnel less than the amount they are entitled to particularly when personnel from other countries serving with the UN abroad are paid the proper amount? There should not be any differentiation. Serving abroad with the UN is not the holiday many people believe it is. It is a very arduous, severe and dangerous task. There have been casualties. The Minister should look into the question of pay for service abroad and see to it that our personnel are paid the salary and wages laid down by the United Nations for foreign service with a peace-keeping force. Let us not be niggardly in that regard.

It is not often that an ex-NCO has an opportunity of addressing the House on an Estimate for the Department of Defence. I listened with interest to the contribution of other Deputies and I appreciate their views about the Army. Having served as a private and NCO I am aware of the conditions that exist in the Army and the changes that are necessary in the various barracks. I should like to congratulate Deputy Power on his appointment as Minister for Defence. He represents Kildare, a county where I was stationed on many occasions during my Army service. From my contact with officers and men I learned that 15,000 is the minimum needed in the Army. The last Government introduced an embargo on further recruitment but that should be lifted. At a time of high unemployment it is unrealistic to say that we should only recruit up to 300 people. I can recall the glossy brochures that were issued in an effort to attract young people into the Army and this is the first time I can remember supply exceeding the demand.

This is an indication that the embargo in this area should be lifted. If there are 500 applications for admission to the Defence Forces the Minister should do everything possible to recruit those people. In a large organisation such as the Army there is bound to be a lot of normal wastage. There must be an adequate number of NCOs to train the troops, and this process takes about 18 months. I speak as someone who has served both as a private and as an NCO.

I welcome the recruitment of women to the Defence Forces and I was very impressed by the smartness and neatness of some of these ladies at Arbour Hill recently.

The question of married quarters has been mentioned, and I am well aware that some soldiers when retiring overhold their quarters. When I left the Army I was not occupying married quarters but I know many former soldiers whose gratuities and pensions were delayed because they were overholding. The system should be reviewed, because it is not acceptable that men who have served their country and may be finding is difficult to obtain work should be penalised because they are unable to vacate married quarters due to the difficulty of finding alternative accommodation.

I am a member of Dublin City Council, and I visited the married quarters at Arbour Hill in the company of corporation officials and Army officers. Of the dwellings inspected on 25 February last year 88 were found to be substandard, and I found this very disheartening. I would have recommended that the place be bulldozed and rebuilt, because we should not expect people to live in such conditions.

Married quarters are a legacy of colonial days when the troops stationed here were not our own people. The soldiers now occupying those barracks are our own flesh and blood. This matter might best be dealt with by the local authority. Some Army personnel have been housed in Tallaght and the corporation tried to keep them close together. Of 89 flats inspected in Cathal Brugha Barracks 75 were found to be substandard, and the Army authorities and the Minister must examine this matter.

I also recommend consideration of the possibility of handing over all these sites to the corporation. There would be mutual advantages in such a move. Arbour Hill, Griffith Square and Cathal Brugha Barracks are prime sites. The amount provided in the Estimate for improvements at these places might not be well spent, and I would rather see the erection of new buildings.

Soldiers are entitled to apply for local authority houses in the same way as other citizens, and many of them now occupy such houses. This Government have allocated £91 million to Dublin Corporation for housing purposes, and if some sort of swap of land could be arranged between the Army and the corporation, a high percentage of the new houses could be allocated to soldiers. This would be good for their morale.

A deputy who spoke earlier mentioned promotion opportunities within the Defence Forces. When I was in the Army the only opportunity for NCOs was to become quarter-masters or administrative officers, and the number of such courses was very limited. I welcome the extension of opportunities for NCOs to become commissioned officers, because I am satisfied that there are many men and women in the Defence Forces who are capable of doing the job. This is a welcome departure from the position which obtained in the old days. I served under fine officers, and many of them are now my friends, but there should be opportunities for NCOs and men with the capacity to do the job.

I would hope that upon leaving the Army soldiers would be given special preference in regard to jobs in State Departments. If we are to pay more than lip service, if our contributions here are to mean anything, special marks should be given to people who are prepared to serve in the Defence Forces. That was the case after the last emergency and going into the fifties. If you had served in the Defence Forces you got extra marks in various examinations and when applying for various jobs Army service was a bonus. I do not recollect getting any such bonus when I left the Army, and at that time one had to look around for a job, but at that time it seemed that that mechanism to cater for people leaving the Army did not exist. Many people who have served in the Army are in Government Departments and they are very good workers. Some machinery should be set up whereby people serving in the Army, some of them only 39 or 40 years of age or even less if they joined at 16 or 17, who are quite capable of filling jobs outside the services would get preference for such jobs.

Many people say that the age of retirement from the Army is too low. An officer can retire after 12 years' service with a modified pension, but an NCO cannot retire under the same conditions. I believe that an NCO has to serve for a minimum of 21 years before he is entitled to a pension. What applies to officers should apply also to the NCOs and men. If an officer can retire after 12 years' service and get a pension I do not object, but the same yardstick should apply to NCOs and men in the forces. From another aspect also the retirement age for officers is too low. Commandants, Lieutenant-Colonels, and Captains must retire at 54 years of age. It is very difficult to take up an outside job after about 25 years in the Army and to pick up the threads of ordinary living. Nobody likes to think that he is a case for the scrap heap. I would like to hear the Minister's view on the retiring age. I have met many men who have retired from the Army whom I would say are good for another ten years anyway, If they are medically fit, healthy and active they should be allowed carry on for another while before retirement.

I want to pay tribute to our Army for their peace keeping missions with the United Nations. Some of our men have laid down their lives in the cause of peace and we should be very proud of that. They have been good ambassadors for this country.

This Estimate for the Department of Defence is one of the most important to go through this House and I would regard the Minister for Defence as one of the key Ministers in this Government.

The Army Equitation School has been referred to. I was stationed in that barracks for a good number of years and I have a good knowledge of that school. I have never seen an NCO or ordinary soldier representing the equitation school. It is hard to believe that in an army of 12,000 or 15,000 ranks not one of them is on a team representing the country at horse-shows and so on throughout the world. Perhaps we lack the opportunities and expertise. However, I saw jumping courses set up around McKee Barracks and in the surrounding fields and it seemed that officers were training other officers in horsemanship and so on. I do not see why these courses should not be open to NCOs and men. Show-jumping is big business and it is not the prerogative of any group. I hope that in the not too distant future NCOs and men who have a love of horsemanship will be given the opportunity of taking such courses and availing of the training given so readily by the officers of the equitation school. I will ask the Minister to say something about that in his reply.

The FCA are doing a good job, but there is a great deal of "aggro" in that force at the moment regarding the taxing of their gratuity. Many members of this force give their weekends free and unless they have sufficient weekends totted up they will not get a full gratuity. I know what I am talking about because I worked in this field when I was in the Defence Forces. I was told that I was lucky, I had a dug-in job. I was in an office for a while and I know something about this matter. They are giving their time and their weekends free of charge, perhaps going off on a Saturday morning and coming back on Sunday night, doing courses, training in barracks and so on. If we want to encourage people to join the Defence Forces — and the FCA are a very important wing of the Defence Forces — we should not be penny-pinching by taking the few bob out of the gratuity they receive once a year at their annual camp. A little generosity in this regard would not break the State or the Department. On a canvass the other evening I had a rough reception from a man who probably was an FCA officer. He told me that he was paying £95 for his uniform. I understood that the uniforms were issued free. A person who offers his services should at least get his uniform free. This man asked why he should give his service and so on, and what he said had certain merit. Perhaps the wages in the Army have gone up a good deal since I served because they were not being taxed at that time. I ask the Minister to have a hard look at this.

Civil Defence do not seem to get the same high profile as the rest of the Defence Forces. They should, because they play a very important part in our society. They are not as prominent on the ground as the other forces but that does not mean that they are not doing a good job. This should be recognised.

About 25 or 30 years ago the Army had a corps known as the Construction Corps. Has the time now arrived to revitalise it, with all the youth unemployment we have? The Minister may know something about this corps. I know from my experience of them that they served a useful purpose at the time and made better citizens of a number of people. People rushed to join them. A few years in the Army does not harm anybody. Hopping around the square at 6 o'clock in the morning can be a very wakening experience. Army life knocks the corners off people. It is healthy and I would recommend it to anybody. However, in order to encourage young people to join the Army today; we will have to get rid of much of the red tape that was involved.

When the Minister visits some of the barracks that I used to know I would like to accompany him to see if any improvements have been made since I was there, when 20 or 21 people were sleeping in one small room. At that time the living conditions were anything but satisfactory. After 25 years I should like to see if there have been any improvements made, and I hope I will be given the opportunity of at least visiting the barracks in Dublin to see what has been done.

I realise that a considerable amount of money is involved in this Estimate. However, we must remember that there is no such thing as cheap security. The Army play a prominent part in the maintenance of law and order. As previous speakers pointed out, they give protection to the banks and so on. There can be no cheese-paring in relation to what we pay our Defence Forces. During the blizzard last winter the Army did excellent work, and I shudder to think what we would have done without them. Sufficient tribute cannot be paid to them: some of the roads in Dublin were impassable and we had to depend on the Army and the Air Corps for assistance. The nation owes them a debt of gratitude for what they did. I accept that some of the local authorities did not come out of that period with full marks, and it must be accepted that without the assistance of the Army at that time things would have been much worse.

The Minister represents an area in which there are seven or eight barracks and he is well aware of the problems of Army life. I hope he will accept my criticism as constructive. The housing situation for Army people in this city is a national scandal. Soldiers are marrying at a younger age than was the practice up to now. I do not know if it is necessary for them now to apply for permission to marry; I hope that regulation has gone. However, there was a time when it was necessary for a soldier to apply to his commanding officer for permission to marry. One-third of the population of the country live in Dublin and probably one-third of Army personnel are stationed here. I ask the Minister to study closely the housing position, and particularly the married quarters in the barracks in Dublin. Some of them are more than 200 years old; I think Collins' Barracks was built in the 1700s. Some of those premises should be knocked down because the condition of the buildings is deplorable. Where housing is bad morale is at a low ebb and there is much discontent.

The question of overholding has been raised. The Department should not be allowed to stop the payment of pensions when people are overholding through no fault of their own. In this city there are 6,000 families on the housing waiting list. A person cannot just walk into the office of Dublin Corporation and ask them for a house immediately because he is leaving the Army. That person will have to satisfy all the conditions of the Dublin Corporation.

I must pay tribute to the housing allocation officers in Dublin Corporation. They have been very sensitive to the demands of the Defence Forces and have been sympathetic in their attitude. Many local authority houses are tenanted by ex-soldiers and their families. I hope a survey will be carried out of all the spare land at Collins' Barracks, Arbour Hill, Cathal Brugha Barracks and Griffith Barracks. I know the city officials are anxious to co-operate with the Army authorities to arrive at a mutually satisfactory arrangement. I am satisfied that much can be done with regard to this matter, and I hope that when we come to discuss the Estimates in 1983 there will be a considerable improvement. All Deputies who have spoken have been concerned about this matter. Housing is a basic human need. I know what I am talking about. I was stationed in several barracks in this city and I know what the married quarters are like. I visited some of them recently with city officials who classified them as substandard, and that means they are unfit for habitation.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. I do not agree with Deputy Treacy who questioned his suitability for the job. I think he is adequately suitable for the job and I am not prepared to listen to that kind of waffle from the Deputy. The Minister is filling the job with distinction. I hope the points I raised will be taken as constructive criticism and that something will be done about them.

I should like to join in congratulating the Minister on his appointment as Minister for Defence but I must temper my congratulations by repeating the criticism of his speech in Edenderry. It was intemperate and unfortunate. As Deputy Treacy said, it could be taken to prejudice the neutrality we want to be seen to hold so dear, but in addition I am afraid it has had a very deleterious effect on our relations with the other island. This will have direct consequences for the tourist trade this year and I think those consequences have been felt already if we can believe reports from Bord Fáilte. I am sure it was a once-off speech by the Minister, and some of the consequences have been undone by the Taoiseach disowning the speech and by Deputy O'Malley's rejection of it yesterday. I am afraid that has to be said. Ministerial office brings with it responsibilities of care and discretion, and they were breached on that occasion. It would be unfortunate if the civilian head of our Defence Forces gave the impression that our Defence Forces are susceptible to the disease of Brit-bashing which occasionally breaks out here, particularly on the other side of the House.

It would appear from the contributions that have been made that in administering this Estimate the Minister should not have any problems about the adequacy of the funds available to him. The Estimate is designed to provide funds for the Minister which, with the normal careful management that is expected in regard to these funds, would enable him comfortably to discharge his obligations and enable his Department to fulfil its role. I do not have to remind the House that the Estimate which the Minister is introducing is the Estimate that was decided upon by the last Coalition Government. The Minister finds himself in a much happier position in relation to that part of his duty, in relation to administering the funds that will be available to his Department, than his predecessor Deputy Barrett found himself in this time last year when he had to deal with an Estimate which seriously under-provided for the needs of his Department. As Deputy Treacy has reminded us, Deputy Tully had to introduce a Supplementary Estimate for a very considerable sum, over £20 million, to make up the shortfall in the original provision. But Deputy Tully's experience and Deputy Barrett's predicament were not unique to the Department of Defence last year. It is an unfortunate fact — and it is on record — that the Estimate for most if not all Government Departments were seriously under-provided for to the extent that the whole estimating procedure and budgeting procedures were less than real, and that is probably the most charitable way in which I can put it. But it is clear from the debate so far that those problems of underestimation do not face the Minister this year.

The debate has been concerned generally with conditions of service in the Army — housing, pay and promotion prospects. I would like to spend a few moments on some of those matters. First I would like to echo the compliments that have been paid to the personnel of the Defence Forces. Like most of the Deputies who have spoken I also represent a constituency which has within it a considerable number of Army personnel with garrisons in Athlone, Mullingar and Longford. I can say from my personal knowledge of the way those personnel have integrated into the communities that they are very highly regarded in their communities and have never been found wanting when the communities have asked for assistance which it was within the capacity of the military to give. It has been given generously and, invariably, it has been given efficiently. I would like to pay tribute to the personnel concerned and to the Army generally for the services they provide to the nation both at home and abroad.

In recent years we have had to make extra demands on Army personnel for security duties arising out of the terrorist activities of the IRA. In addition the Army has had extra foreign service to fulfil the requirements of the United Nations operation in different parts of the Middle East. It is common case that these rather unusual duties at home and abroad have been discharged competently and successfully and it is only right that in the Parliament of the nation we should acknowledge that and pay tribute to the people concerned.

One of the main reasons the Army has been successful is that there has been a high standard of morale. Morale is a thing that one cannot define, but one always knows when it is present and equally when it is absent. There are differing factors contributing to morale. The actual physical conditions of service, the accommodation to which Deputy Brennan has referred, both for the serving personnel and their families, are factors that can contribute to morale. The level of pay is obviously a factor that must contribute to morale and general satisfaction. Also the standard of clothing and equipment contribute. We have to examine all these things to make sure that they are kept at a level which will be adequate to ensure in turn that the morale is kept at the desired pitch.

There is one other very important factor and that is that service in the Army will have proper career prospects. Army pay is good and there is general satisfaction with the rates. Every one of us would like to have a greater income but by and large the rates of pay in the Army are satisfactory. But there is one exception — and I would echo Deputy Brennan on this — and that is the extra pay that is made available to members who are serving on security duties. Many of these security duties involve long, invariably, unsocial hours, winter and summer. Some of them involve unpleasant prison duties. Some of them involve unpleasant duties along the Border. I suspect and feel that the level of acknowledgement, in so far as it is given through extra allowances, is not as high as it should be. I would ask the Minister to arrange for an examination of the rates of special allowances for security duties at present being paid to Army personnel. Within that examination it might be possible to recognise that there are some duties that are more unpleasant and more demanding than others and it might be possible to have grades rather than a flat rate. Indeed it is a great tribute to the selflessness of the Army personnel and their loyalty to the service and to their country that we have not had much criticism in that area, particularly when they have to endure the provocation of knowing that members of another uniformed force doing precisely the same duties are rewarded in a much more generous manner. The Army are conscious of this discrepancy but nevertheless their loyalty enables them to accept their slightly prejudiced position vis-à-vis their uniformed colleagues from another service. So I would ask the Minister to consider the allowances for special duties.

On the question of housing, obviously to provide houses for military personnel would be beyond the capacity of the Defence Estimate as framed. I would question whether soldiers should be housed specially by their Department rather than treated as citizens in the normal way to be provided with houses through the normal State agencies whether they be building societies, local authorities, banks and so on. I would be inclined to think that we should pay soldiers the normal wages, arrange for a normal salary structure in the Army so that soldiers can be housed in the same way and with no distinction from the rest of the citizens of the country. But where there are Army quarters — and historically there are some attached to some of the older barracks — every effort should be made to see that Army married quarters, where provided, are up to standard. It would appear from what Dublin Deputies say that this is far from being the case in Dublin. In Athlone there are two small Army schemes with modern houses and the accommodation is up to the standard required.

There is one difficulty about Army personnel living in Army houses, and that is the difficulty that arises when a person's Army service terminates and the question of finding alternative accommodation arises. Very often the member concerned has to look to the local authority and take his place in the queue. If that queue is long, and it invariably is in urban areas, there can be delay before he can vacate the Army house. In the meantime he is prejudiced by virtue of the fact that his pension and gratuity are being withheld for something over which he has no control. He does not have the resources to house himself privately and he finds himself and his family financially prejudiced. This is even worse when service is terminated due to an unexpected death. The trauma of that event is compounded by the understandable but very harsh rule of the Department to withhold pension and gratuity until the house is vacated. The answer would be if there was an ample supply of housing stock in the hands of the local authorities, but that is the optimum position and we are not going to achieve it. When a retirement date is known it should be possible, through close liaison between the local authority and the Army authorities, to arrange accommodation within a reasonable time for those who have to leave Army quarters.

Athlone UDC have been anxious about this problem and have raised it on a number of occasions with the Department of Defence and the Army authorities. On a national scale there must be close liaison between the Department and the local authorities to ensure that this hardship is alleviated as much as possible, and hopefully removed altogether.

With regard to clothing and equipment and other factors which contribute to the morale and well-being of an army, there have been considerable improvements in the last seven or eight years. Our Army is well equipped and well clothed and the physical conditions of service are generally good. Care is taken about catering and there is positive satisfaction about the standards applicable in that area.

There is still some work to be done with regard to clothing and equipment for the FCA. I must compliment the Department on the design of the new tunic for FCA members and I hope to see it on general issue as soon as possible. Wherever it has made its appearance on the streets, it has been very favourably commented on. It is one of the mysteries of the supply system in the public service that new issues seem to become available on a bitty basis. It was a pity this tunic could not have been made available by way of a general issue to all members because it would give a tremendous boost to that service.

There is a further very important area that affects morale, and that is career prospects. Deputy Treacy and Deputy Brennan mentioned that there are officer courses for NCOs to obtain commissioned ranks. I think I am right in correcting Deputy Treacy when I say that these courses have been available for some time but there may not have been as many men on them as we would like to have seen. I endorse the views that more NCOs should be offered places on these courses, because very high quality NCOs are available in our Army and they should have the prospect of attaining commissioned rank.

For those in commissioned rank there should be satisfaction and confidence in the promotion structures and careers opportunities. I have to say categorically that there is serious — I emphasise the word "serious"— dissatisfaction among senior ranks about the promotion policy operating at present. This matter was raised last week by way of question by Deputy Loughnane. He asked the Minister if he was aware of the considerable dismay and concern about the system of promotion, and the Minister indicated that he was not so aware. I want to assure the Minister that what Deputy Loughnane said is fact. There is considerable concern about promotion prospects for senior officers.

Promotions are governed by defence force regulation A 15, section 7, amended in 1979, and sets out the criteria for promotion in commissioned ranks. There is automatic promotion to the rank of Captain, it is a condition of enlistment, and there is promotion to the rank of commandant when the officer has successfully completed the standard course for his service corps, or a course certified as acceptable in lieu thereof, or when he has generally reached the standard acceptable to the Chief of Staff. The previous regulations required in the case of promotion to the rank of commandant that the officer would have successfully completed the commandant staff course. That has been dropped and a person can become a commandant after successfully completing a standard course of his service corps or a course certified by the Chief of Staff.

The commandant staff course could be described as the post-graduate course for commissioned officers. It is a residential and intensive course. On completion of the course candidates are tested in a very exact fashion. Officers who successfully complete this course can be taken to be fully qualified professional Army officers. All officers have the opportunity to go on this course, and they know that if they fail to take this course and complete it successfully their career prospects will not go beyond the rank of commandant. Previously they would not even make commandant without taking this course, but under the changed regulations of 1979, it is now provided that for promotion to the rank of lieutenant-colonel or higher, the officer must have satisfactorily completed commandant staff course or a course certified by the Chief of Staff as acceptable in lieu. Traditionally these alternative courses are generally taken in military establishments abroad. Selected officers may be sent to undergo comparable courses abroad so that the equivalent would be of the same high standard as the commandant staff course run here.

At that stage of an officer's career, all officers have completed this highly professional post-graduate course. We should bear in mind that the initial selection procedures were very exact, because only the best were picked from a very high number of applications. The initial training in the cadet college and the initial courses in the service corps were all of a very high standard, with the result that when officers had passed the commandant staff course there was a pretty uniformly high level of professional expertise. Obviously, there would be differences of personality and of capacity, as there would be in any group of people serving in a specialised avocation, but by and large, the level of professional competence would be pretty well uniform. Some men would be more energetic than others, some more easy-going than others, all the different qualities of the human personality, to distinguish people from each other, but the level of professional competence and professional expertise would, generally, be on a par. Consequently, when choices had to be made for promotion there was a difficulty for those in charge of promotions—how to distinguish between these people who were generally, comparable with each other.

The regulations say that, in recommending an officer for promotion, the Chief of Staff should certify that the officer is considered fitted to fill the appointment to the higher ranks — obviously this is a truism — has given evidence of reliability, devotion to duty, zeal, industry, ability, initiative and, where applicable, the faculty of leadership — these are desirable qualities and one would assume that senior officers having served up to 30 years in the Army would have displayed all those qualities — and has been recommended in his annual confidential report. That is fair enough. An unsatisfactory confidential report would rule out an officer if he had blotted his copybook in some way. The Chief of Staff had to certify all those things. As I have mentioned he must have regard to the fact that the officer has successfully completed the commandant staff course, or an equivalent course. The next factor to which the Chief of Staff must have regard is whether in addition to fulfilling the requirements mentioned above as appropriate — and I quote fromt he regulations:

the officer has successfully completed a course of instruction or passed any examinations or test for which he has been detailed;

That is a new requirement since 1979, and I shall deal with its implications shortly.

The next thing he must have regard to in the case of promotion other than promotion under paragraph 8 which deals with specialised matters and need not be mentioned here, is the officer's place in the seniority list, both in regard to service course seniority and seniority in the permanent Defence Forces. That requirement in regard to seniority has been heavily weighted in promotions in the Army up to now. It has been accepted in the Army as being a critical factor in promotions. Seniority is important in the Army, so much so that there is a special Defence Force Regulation A. 17 — these are statutory instruments — which provides that the Adjutant-General must prepare a Defence Force list which determines the seniority of officers. That is a public, official document in which the seniority of all officers is listed. Officers know where they are in terms of seniority vis-à-vis their colleagues. One can see, therefore, how important seniority is when dealing with an organisation where the levels of professional efficiency are by and large comparable.

Seniority has always been recognised traditionally in the Army as being a very important factor in promotion to senior ranks — not the exclusive or deciding factor but, other things being equal, then the deciding factor. This is very important for the career prospects of officers. When an officer reaches the rank of commandant he is generally in his early to mid-thirties. At that stage he knows the seniority list and, traditionally in the Army, officers at that stage of their careers have been able to look at this list and make a very good assessment that if their career proceeds according to normal lines and if they successfully and competently carry out all the duties, tests and courses which they undertake, and know, looking at the seniority list, pretty certainly what their prospects are of becoming Lieutenant-Colonels, pretty certainly — though less certainly — what their prospects are of becoming full Colonels and the prospect then of going to higher ranks.

At that critical stage of his career, the officer can decide to make a career in the Army. That is a critical decision for a man in his mid thirties to make — would he continue in the Army or are his career prospects such as to make a continuing Army career attractive? He can do that because seniority has been a factor and has been honoured in the promotion system heretofore. If that were not the case and a person in his mid-thirties was unsure of his position, he would look around for alternative civilian employment. Very often, for Army officers at that stage of energy and training there are civilian career opportunities. It is a difficult decision for a person to make, whether to take the civilian opportunity and leave the avocation in which he originally wanted to spend his life. To enable him to make that choice he must know if he has a career in the Army. Up to now, he knew that by looking at the seniority list. Unfortunately, in the last couple of years the system of regard to the seniority list has been breached on a number of occasions, giving cause for considerable unrest and, as Deputy McMahon has said, dismay and concern about the promotion system. No longer is it possible for an officer to look at the seniority list and know how his career prospects will work out, provided the other matters referred to are in order, provided he had completed his courses and displayed all the necessary qualities of an Army officer.

The level of professional skill is generally comparable at those ranks in the Army. At that stage, we have to look for some effective criterion, and the seniority criterion as an objective criterion has worked well, generally, in the Army. It is not infallible; no human system is infallible. It has had the great strength of being objective. The great strength there is that Army officers knew that their career prospects did not depend on party-political influences or on any element of an "old boy" network within the Army. Now we are no longer sure. I would hate to see an attitude coming into our Army which prevails in another uniformed force which shall be nameless, where there is a common belief that promotions, preferment and postings depend, if not on party-political influence certainly on an internal "old boy" network. That is why I say to the Minister that this is a serious problem which he must consider.

There is one other point which I said I would come back to, one of the matters to which the Chief of Staff had to have regard when recommending for promotion, that is, whether the officer has successfully completed any course of instruction or passed any examination for which he has been detailed. Recently there has been introduced into the Army what has been called a senior officer course. This is unlike the command and staff course, which is an intensive post-graduate training available for all officers. On completion there is a test to find out whether or not the officer has completed it successfully.

This senior officers' course is quite informal. It is not open to all senior officers. There appears to be no objective means by which the officers who go on this course are picked. It is not tested on completion to see if it has made any difference to the professional expertise of the officer concerned. Some officers have gone on this course — I do not say improperly or unjustly in any way — and having gone on it, having regard to the way the regulations are now framed, they then have an advantage over their colleagues who are not lucky enough to be asked to go on this course. Bearing in mind that this course is not tested and, so far as I know, it is not residental, it is called a senior officers' course.

When an officer has undertaken this course, the Chief of Saff has to have regard to that fact, and an officer with that course under his belt is at an advantage over a colleague who may be senior to him and, in terms of professional competence, may well be senior and superior as well. Because he was not lucky enough to go on the course a senior and possibly more competent or equally competent colleague is passed over because the man who has been on the course has the extra so-called qualification under the regulations. That provision is also causing considerable unrest.

There is one further matter to which I want to refer in the context of the question of morale among senior officers. It is very important that the officer corps should have a high morale and that they are satisfied with their conditions of service. My point deals with the rather sensitive area of the annual confidential reports. Defence Force regulation A.15 provides that there shall be annual confidential reports on officers. These are what they say they are, confidential reports on officers made by a superior officer and they go on the officers' records. They are available to the superior officers when it comes to the question of promotions.

According to the regulation, the annual confidential report awards an officer a rating of either satisfactory or unsatisfactory, and that is it. If there is disagreement between the reporting officers, the Adjutant General can award a final rating. If an officer is rated unsatisfactory, he has to sign this confidential report document which is called an AF 451 acknowledging the fact that he has been found unsatisfactory. If he wishes he can submit representations. The Adjutant General could subsequently award a final rating of satisfactory and the report would be amended accordingly. If the Adjutant General so agrees the officer can be shown the reasons why he was found to be unsatisfactory. That is the system which has been working and has been accepted. Officers knew exactly where they stood.

Last year this reporting procedure was changed. I have grave doubts about the legality of the change because it does not appear to be sustained by a similar change in the Defence Force Regulations. The validity of the annual confidential reports depends on the Defence Force Regulations. That regulation provides for two ratings, satisfactory or unsatisfactory. With the change we have a document which provides for all sorts of ratings of the officers being reported upon from outstanding, above average, average — how does one distinguish between above average and average? — up to the minimum standard required, to the old one, unsatisfactory.

In making those assessments the reporting officer has to consider integrity, leadership and management, decisiveness, judgment, initiative, acceptance of responsibility, planning and organising ability, efficiency in performance of duty, powers of comprehension, co-operation, dependability and administrative ability. All that reads very well, and obviously these are all desirable things to be taken into account when an officer is making an assessment of a junior colleague.

To have to go on and rate all those varied qualities under the various gradings from outstanding down to unsatisfactory imposes an impossible task on the reporting officer. Obviously it was feared that reporting officers might be worried about the duty being imposed on them, because on the front of this document in the instructions to the reporting officer it is set out that there should be no ambiguities and that where comments are made which imply that corrective action should be taken, suitable action should be taken.

It says that lack of clarity will be referred back to the reporting officer. Then underlined is the rather dubious statement that the compilation of the report will be used as a source of information about the reporting officer. I do not have to spell out to the Minister and the House the consequences of that type of direction, or the atmosphere it must bring into this whole system of reporting.

Obviously reporting on fellow officers is a sensitive area. This sensitivity was recognised in the earlier regulations under which the rating was satisfactory or unsatisfactory. That has been accepted in the Army up to now. We now have this change in the annual confidential report which goes into the greatest of detail of subjective assessments of all sorts of metaphysical qualities which then have to be rated under five different headings. If the reporting officer does not do his job, somebody could use that as a reflection on him. What position does that put the reporting officer in? What is the position of the officers being reported upon? How will they comport themselves vis-à-vis their colleagues whom they have to meet socially and professionally in barracks up and down the country? How will they comport themselves in relation to the reporting officers?

On the last page of this document under the heading "Guide to Completion of AF 451 and AF 451A" there is a list of desirable qualities which, it is said, may be of help when compiling relevant paragraphs. The first is adaptability — adjusts to new or changing situations. It could also mean he was able to compromise to please others, particularly his superior officers. The next is ambition —seeks and welcomes, within bounds the military propriety, additional and more important responsibilities. Again, depending on the personalities of the reported upon and the reporter, ambition could mean that he was prepared to push. Some people might like that and some people might not.

Another quality is co-operation — works in harmony with others as a team member. There is not much difference between that and adaptability. The next is dependability — consistently accomplishes desired actions with minimum supervision. That is a very desirable quality, but it could also mean that he does not annoy the boss and he watches himself. Another is ingenuity — creative ability in devising means to solve problems.

One could be cynical about how these desirable qualities are going to be interpreted. Next is moral courage — intellectual honesty, willingness to speak without equivocation. That is something we all like to see in others and think we have ourselves. People with that quality will have to look at loyalty — faithful and willing support to superiors and subordinates. There is room for conflict there. Tenacity — the will to persevere in the face of obstacles. If the obstacle happens to be a senior officer and it might also be the reportin officer who wants a particular thing done his way which the junior officer feels is the wrong way, is he to show tenacity? Will it be recognised as such — willing to persevere in the face of obstacles — or will it be interpreted as stubborness? I descry the hand of a psychologist behind that nonsence and I would earnestly suggest to the Minister that a serious look should be taken immediately at the system of annual confidential reports and that there should be an immediate reversion to the old system by which an officer was found to be satisfactory or unsatisfactory and his promotion depended on the sole requirement of successfully completing the command and staff course, having the necessary devotion to duty, zeal and industry that officers normally display in the course of their duty and that proper regard be had to the place in the seniority list.

I assure the Minister that what Deputy Loughnane referred to as dismay and concern at the present promotion procedures is true, is widespread and becoming more widespread in the Army. There is a feeling that promotion is no longer objective as it was in the past. This worries many officers who stayed in the Army when they might have opted for an alternative career in their early days but because they knew where they were in the seniority list and knew its importance in promotion they were able to make an assessment of their career prospects. If that position has been damaged, as I am informed it has been, it is important that the Minister should take steps to restore it immediately.

The only other matter I wish to mention is in relation to Civil Defence. Previous speakers have described this service as being a cinderella, which is not an inaccurate description. We pride ourselves on our neutrality but in the event of an outbreak of hostilities that involved us it would be of vital importance to the safety of the nation and the population that we should have an efficient Civil Defence organisation. We do not have that at present; perhaps we will never need it and that we would find our neutrality continuing to be protected by friendly countries and NATO and that we can do without Civil Defence. But when we have a Civil Defence service it should be an efficient and well-organised one which would be recognised as having an important role to play. Even if it never had — please God it never will have — any role to play in the context of hostilities, it could have a very definite role to play in terms of dealing physical, natural disasters. Happily, we do not suffer from them even to the extent of adjoining countries but when they come even on the scale of the last blizzard, it is important to have a Civil Defence organisation capable of coping with whatever might arise. It would not require money, only administration and organisation and attention to the men and women of the Civil Defence service to let them know that they are appreciated, to involve them more in expansion of their duties and training and above all where possible to keep them supplied with proper equipment.

I will conclude by repeating that the Army are entitled to the best thanks of the House for loyal and uncomplaining service. Because traditionally the Army have been uncomplaining and do not have any outlet for making complaints through staff associations and so on — I hope the day will never come when they will have such complaints — it is important that when a complaint does come through the parliamentary or democratic process via a Deputy and when it is a complaint as serious as I think the complaint about dissatisfaction with the present promotion system to senior rank is concerned, it behoves the Minister, because of the peculiar situation and nature and structure of our Army and their relationship to the Executive and to parliament, as the person responsible to parliament for the wellbeing of that organisation to pay careful heed to what is being said here. I endorse what was described by Deputy Loughnane as being a situation of dismay and concern with the present reporting and promotion procedure.

As the Minister of State with specific responsibility for Civil Defence, I would like to expand on what the Minister for Defence has said on that subject.

At the outset, perhaps it should be said that Civil Defence and the whole area of modern warfare as it might affect this country is strewn with misconceptions. The optimists would tell us that, because of this country's policy of neutrality, our geographical position or some other reason, we can expect indefinitely to remain unscathed by outbreaks of war wherever they occur. However, I think we should remind ourselves, at least now and then that the possibility of a war which could affect us, directly or indirectly cannot be ruled out. We should also remind ourselves that the nuclear arsenal has been increasing year by year across the globe, that the spread of nuclear weapons has increased, that a policy of neutrality does not protect a nation from the horrible effects of nuclear war and that increasingly the civilian population is affected by modern warfare. In World War I the ratio of military to civilian casualties was 10 to one; in World War II there was and even ratio of 1:1 and in the Vietnamese war the scales had completely turned and 20 civilians died for every one death within the armed forces. The possible ratio, should yet another world war occur, is almost too horrible to contemplate.

I suppose the pessimistic view at its extreme is that, should the unthinkable horror of a nuclear war occur, one would be better off dead. It is an avenue of thought one does not like to pursue but I think it must be said that among the questions which the survivors of any catastrophe will ask is why more was not done in advance to be better prepared for that catastrophe, to increase protection against the effects of the catastrophe, to make life more bearable for those who survive and to hasten recovery.

There are some who say that there will be no survival — that there is nothing you can do about a catastrophe on the scale of a major nuclear conflict. I think it is part of the horror of that scenario that, in the view of military strategists and a considerable body of expert opinion, a substantial proportion of people would survive even a global nuclear war. The level of casualties would be appalling and, of course, our major aim must be to continue our efforts to promote whatever action may help to prevent the use of nuclear weapons at any stage or at any level. But while the possibility of their use continues — and regrettably that possibility does remain — we must continue to have a reasonable state of Civil Defence preparedness against the eventuality.

Here, I would like to state that I subscribe to the view of the Department of Defence that it is virtually certain that Civil Defence measures, even at their current relatively modest level, would save thousands of lives, particularly in the type of situation which is likely to prevail in this country in the event of a major nuclear conflict. Indeed, the evidence from Hiroshima and Nagasaki shows that, with present knowledge, casualties even in direct hit areas would be substantially reduced by rudimentary Civil Defence measures. Against a direct saturation attack on this island — surely an unlikely event — protection may be beyond our capability but this is no argument to suggest that we should not have some insurance — such as Civil Defence provides — against lesser but much more likely hazards. We in Government cannot afford to take a negative attitude; among other things, we cannot choose to do nothing about the risk of radiation deaths from a nuclear war or indeed from a possible peacetime accident involving a nuclear explosion. Civil Defence is our only insurance against that possibility and the increased provision for Civil Defence in the Estimates — approximately 50 per cent more than in 1981 — is an indication of the Government's commitment to continuing and improving Civil Defence preparedness.

Before I go on to comment on what additional steps might be taken to increase Civil Defence effectiveness, perhaps I should give a short account of what has been achieved since Civil Defence was established in its modern form in the fifties. It was set up in the shadow of the atomic bomb and the concentration of effort then and since then has been on preparing for what is seen as the most likely hazard for this country in the event of a nuclear war — namely a radioactive fallout situation. Deputies will be aware that the primary responsibility for the co-ordination of Civil Defence planning and organisation rests with the Department of Defence and subject to my overall direction, local authorities are responsible for the recruitment and training of Civil Defence volunteers and the development of Civil Defence measures in their functional areas. In 1951 the Civil Defence school in the Phoenix Park was set up as the central training establishment and, in subsequent years, under the guidance of the Civil Defence Branch of the Department of Defence, local authority Civil Defence organisations with headquarters staffs and five functional volunteer services were formed. The number of volunteer personnel trained in Civil Defence skills is currently in the region of 35,000 of which, approximately, one half are still actively involved in the Civil Defence services. other specific achievements in the intervening years, which were brought about at a cost which was generally less than 1 per cent of the total annual budget for Defence include the following: a national control has been set up and equipped — it has a broadcasting capability and communication links with the regional and county controls and other bodies with important Civil Defence roles; control centres have also been set up in the various local authorities and this network is now virtually completed; a stock of radiation instruments has also been built-up and distributed to local authorities, even though, as the Minister for Defence has stated, there is now an urgent need to commence a programme of replacement of obsolete equipment, and there is now an annual test of the effectiveness of the warning and monitoring network in the form of a nationwide fallout exercise.

However, since the Civil Defence organisation was set up shortly after the Second World War, the structure of the organisation and the approach to Civil Defence generally have remained essentially the same. I believe that there are a number of matters which should now be examined more fully and indeed that a fundamental review of the whole area of Civil Defence is desirable. Within that review I would include whatever is necessary to increase the contribution of Civil Defence in peacetime emergency situations.

As I implied earlier, the existing capacity of Civil Defence to protect and advise the population in wartime emergency situations has been arrived at by way of a slow build-up over the last quarter of a century and the question might well be asked what should we now be doing? It is out of the question financially that we should aspire to the degree of preparedness attained by the Swiss, whose Civil Defence has a nominal strength of 625,000 people and who can provide shelter protection of an unusually high standard for nine-tenths of their population, or that attained by the Swedes for whom Civil Defence service is obligatory. We can take warning from the fact that the main protaganists in the East/West polarisation take their Civil Defence very seriously indeed. The Russian Civil Defence system is considered to be superior to the system operating in most European countries and has been well financed over the past 20 years. Training is compulsory for all adults; they also have an industrial Civil Defence programme. In the United States there is increased emphasis on civil preparedness — this was commenced during the Carter administration and is being continued under the Reagan administration and is envisaged to entail an increase in annual outlay of the order of 80 per cent for the fiscal year 1983.

So, what should we be doing? In the Estimates before you we have a provision of £1½ million which represents a substantial increase on the provision expended last year, but more again will be needed in future years. A considerable up-dating of equipment is overdue. A start has been made in the matter of fire appliances, rescue equipment and ambulances but much more is called for, not only in respect of these items but also in respect of radiation measuring and monitoring equipment, communications equipment generally, and systems of educating and warning the public. We must maintain the network we have, improving it when we can, and we must preserve the morale and the numerical strength of the organisation. Over the past two years or so a great deal of energy has been expended by the Department in launching seminars to alert various organisations to their role in wartime situations but the follow-up and feed-back could be a lot better. The involvement of other State Departments in planning their wartime emergency roles, concerned with the supply of food, medical supplies and treatments, with the care of livestock, with transport etc. could be a lot better.

All the wars since World War II have been fought with so-called conventional weapons and, with this consideration firmly in mind, a good deal of the organisation's training is geared to cater for the effects of conventional war. The criticism has been advanced that it is a mistake to assume that this country will not be a target for nuclear weapons should a global conflict arise, and that it is a mistake therefore to concentrate the national effort to combat the effects of fallout. At all times we are conscious of the possibility of our being a target, accidentally or otherwise, of nuclear weapons; in the event of such a strike, the preparation for protection against nuclear fallout will still save many thousands of lives.

I referred to the morale of the organisation. There is also the rising and ebbing of the community's attitude to Civil Defence. These are very much interconnected and I would like to see a greater involvement of the volunteers in local situations and emergencies, where that is possible. It is to be borne in mind, of course, that the primary role of Civil Defence is wartime preparedness. In the course of the next few weeks a working party of county managers and representatives of the Department will address this matter among others, such as the involvement of local authorities more meaningfully in Civil Defence preparedness.

To conclude I quote an extract from an American Civil Defence publication:

Curiously enough, human nature is basically anti-safety, anti-survival, even anti-peace. Accepting catastrophe and annihilation — or dreaming of an angelic world — is the normal copout. Like the proverbial hole-in-roof: no use fixing it when the sun is out and when it's raining it's too late.

It will be too late to attempt to prepare for the events for which Civil Defence is established when, God forbid, the dogs of war have already been unleashed. We must continue to make the necessary preparations now. In that commendable effort I look for co-operation and support from all sections of this House and all sections of the community.

I should like to take this opportunity of thanking all the volunteers in Civil Defence. Deputy Cooney said a lot more can be done and I agree with that. Society owes a great debt to those people who give their time, in a voluntary capacity, three or four nights a week and at weekends also. During the month of January when we had the blizzard, Civil Defence workers in a number of counties showed how useful they can be, apart from a war situation. People do not realise the effort and time which is put in by voluntary organisations to helping others, and it is a pity that the rest of the community do not follow their example. The Army and Civil Defence workers always display discipline, dedication, intelligence and efficiency but, above all, they have a great readiness to help other people which, unfortunately, is dissappearing from other walks of life. When the Civil Defence or the Army are called out to assist in emergencies far beyond the call of duty they never let the community down. People should realise this and thank them for it.

This is a very important Estimate. The Minister said in his introduction that the primary role of the Defence Forces is the defence of the State against external aggression. We are happy we have not had to use them in that role since the foundation of the State and I hope that situation will always remain.

Many people ask why then do we need an army, an air force — why should we pay out £204 million annually to a group who are not being used for their primary purpose and who have not been so used since the foundation of the State? I believe it is because we have had such dedicated service from members of these forces that we have had very little internal and no external aggression.

We all admit that there has been an internal threat to democracy here for a number of years. As has been said, democracy is a very fragile flower that can be broken easily if the vigilance of Governments here were relaxed. We saw the damage done in the country a few months ago, the violence and the riots in the vicinity of the British Embassy. We saw the viciousness of the groups involved. Members of the armed forces were not too far away on that occasion and if their had been a call they might have had to be used in defence of democracy and the rule of law. We do not want to have to call on that protection but it is there in case the day might come when it would have to be used.

As I have said, the primary role of our Defence Force is to protect us against aggression, and unfortunately it is necessary to have the big stick there in case it might be needed. As others before me, I should like to pay particular tribute to the Defence Forces for the other roles they become involved in and for the part they have played during the years in aid of the civil power and when serious problems arise, such as the hardships last January caused by the inclement weather. A previous speaker has paid tribute to the work they did on that occasion, in glowing terms that I will not be able to match. In my constituency we experience bad weather once every few years, and on such occasions the resources of the local council are not sufficient to do the job in Wicklow.

Last January the severe weather came out of the blue. Indeed the previous evening the weather forecasters on RTE spoke about flurries of snow in the north and over the Wicklow hills. In fact, the severity of the snowstorms meant that the whole of the county was disrupted, all travel was brought to a halt and many parts of the county were closed to ground traffic. As spokesman for Defence I had to ask for aid from the Defence Forces and the Civil Defence organisations. All of these organisations, including the Army, the Air Force, Civil Defence and the Red Cross, made unstinting efforts to help the people, and I am glad of the opportunity this Estimate gives me to express the thanks of thousands of people in the villages and hills in Wicklow who would have been seriously inconvenienced had it not been for the work of the Defence Forces. Many old people might not be with us today were it not for the work done then by these organisations in supplying drugs and medicines, in taking people to hospitals and in rescuing people by helicopters. I ask the Minister to pass on to the Defence Forces the thanks of the people of Wicklow for their great efforts on that occasion.

The Army have extensive property in County Wicklow. In the Glen of Imaal they have training and exercise facilities. Some years ago when speaking either on an Estimate or at Question Time I drew attention to a serious accident on that property resulting in death and injury to children. At that time I was critical of the Army's lack of surveillance in the Glen of Imaal from the point of view of warning sign posts, etc. There has not been a recurrence. The criticism was well intentioned on that occasion. Since then care has been taken and the place is now safer as a recreational area.

The Minister for Defence was in charge of Forestry and Fisheries at one time and will be aware of the recreational value of County Wicklow for Dublin people. For instance, when I was driving to Dublin today I saw several buses in the Glen of the Downs carrying children for walks in the forest. Beside those forests the Army have training areas and it is hard to tell the difference between the two types of property. The Army have to put up "No Trespass" signs and the Department of Forestry are able to put up signs highlighting the amenity value of the forests. I hope the Minister will use his good offices to ensure continued vigilance on the part of the Army in Wicklow and elsewhere. Wicklow is close to our main centre of population, and many Dublin people travel there for recreation instead of taking expensive holidays elsewhere. We must continue to be vigilant about these properties, particularly during the summer months when they are used by people visiting the county. The work done by the Army in that area is appreciated. There is difficulty about sharing the water in the Imaal area. Locals would like the Minister to be more generous in this regard and see that water is provided for villages.

Debate adjourned.
Barr
Roinn