Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Oct 1982

Vol. 338 No. 1

Return to Writ: Galway East. - Nomination of Members of Government: Motion.

Tairgim:

Go n-aontóidh Dáil Éireann leis an Taoiseach d'ainmniú na Teachtaí Donncha Ó Gallchobhair agus Gearóid Ó Brádaigh (Baile Átha Cliath Thoir-Theas) chun a gceapaithe ag an Uachtarán mar chomhaltaí den Rialtas.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the nomination by the Taoiseach of Deputies Denis Gallagher and Gerard Brady (Dublin South-East) for appointment by the President to be Members of the Government.

When speaking here on March 9 last on the motion nominating the members of the Government I explained that I had allocated Ministers to the various Departments on the basis of existing divisions of responsibility.

I said then that I did not, however, regard the existing allocation of ministerial functions in some areas as satisfactory.

That is still my view but I have concluded that it would be unwise to make new dispositions in these areas at this time when all the energies of the Government and of individual Ministers, now familiar with the work of their own Departments, are being directed to the preparation and launching of the National Economic Plan and the preparation of the Estimates for 1983. For the same reason I have decided on the minimum changes at present.

I may say, for the information of the House, that, subject to the motion being approved, I propose—

to terminate the assignment to myself of the Department of Education and to assign that Department to Deputy Brady;

to terminate the assignment to Deputy Flynn of the Department of the Gaeltacht and to assign that Department to Deputy Gallagher; and

to terminate the assignment to Deputy Albert Reynolds of the Department of Trade, Commerce and Tourism and to assign that Department to Deputy Flynn.

I propose also to recommend to the Government to appoint

Deputy Jim Fitzsimons to be Minister of State at the Department of Industry and Energy;

Deputy Niall Andrews to be Minister of State at the Department of the Environment;

Deputy Rory O'Hanlon to be Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare;

Deputy Seán Calleary to be Minister of State at the Department of Trade, Commerce and Tourism.

These are the minimum changes warranted in present circumstances where they will, I believe, provide added ministerial assistance where most required, as they will also provide the more efficient and effective administration of the Departments concerned.

In my copy of the Taoiseach's manuscript reference is made to Deputy Reynolds and to termination of his appointment to the post of Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism. Surely, he is in the Department of Industry and Energy.

The Deputy has not been home.

Rip Van O'Leary.

In moving the rejection of these nominations I do so because they have been made by a Taoiseach in whom 101 of the 165 Deputies on different occasions inside or outside the Dáil have expressed for the public record their lack of confidence. No Taoiseach in the history of the State has ever lost the confidence, and been seen by the public to have lost the confidence, of all but three-fifths of Dáil Éireann.

Such a Government lacks the moral authority needed at any time in order to govern. Such moral authority is vital at a time like this. This loss of confidence in the Dáil and elsewhere has been progressive, as has a similar collapse of confidence by the people. One of five people who expressed willingness to support the Government party last May have expressed themselves no longer willing to vote for them. Why has this happened, this slide in support for the Government and the willingness of people to contemplate voting for the Government in an election?

It has happened because the people know there is a crisis and can see no hope of it being tackled effectively by this Government. They are disillusioned with this Government who told them last March that there was no serious economic crisis, that soft options were open, that £170 million of expenditure cuts and revenue increases proposed by the preceding Government could be done away with and replaced by taking money from next year as a temporary expedient. The people are disillusioned with a Government who allowed, on their own figures, a further £340 million slippage between March and July. They are disillusioned with a Government who then reversed engines, attempting a second U-turn on this issue in two-and-a-half years.

The people are disillusioned because the result of this £500 million splurge in a desperate search for electoral popularity has meant drastic unplanned cuts. It can be seen in the attempt to welch on the third phase of the public pay agreement, which failed, as it was bound to do, and reduced the Government's capacity to renegotiate as distinct from re-phasing payments of special pay increases. We have seen this again in cuts in the health services, including discriminatory withdrawal of hundreds of drugs from the least well off, those on medical cards, while the full cost of the same drugs, subject to small monthly deductions, is available to all of us who are better off. It is typical that here, as in the changes in the tax code, the abolition of the family income supplement, of tax credits and the shape of the PRSI adjustment, the Government have set out to hit the least well off most.

The people are disillusioned because they have learned they cannot trust the Government. They saw an attempt to pretend in July that current finances for this year were above target despite the fact that in the first six months overspending was in excess of the annual estimated figure. Six weeks later, contrary to what they were assured, the Estimates were £200 million out. Six weeks later again there was another revision, by £100 million of this estimate. That was the collapse of the cover-up. Mistrust of the Government now lies so deep that there is a total suspension of belief in the Government and all they say.

The Taoiseach is seen by leading members of his own party — I do not make any comments on the statements, but his party are saying it — as having surrounded himself with undesirable people from whom, they say, he is unwilling or unable to detach himself. He is seen by them as someone in whom they cannot have confidence. He has survived only by the refusal of the right to a secret ballot which alone can ensure, when leadership is contested, the freedom from fear necessary to give a true reflection of his Deputies' feelings. His conviction, carried on to the end of that particular battle, that he could survive only in this way reflects his deep contempt for his party, his belief that while in an open vote he would be opposed by 22, in a secret ballot he would have lost that election which would mean at least another 19 members of his party in the Dáil who in his belief can be moved to support him only by fear, and lack of guts, he believes, to vote according to the judgement of their consciences. It is he, not I, who by his rejection of a secret ballot, has so characterised his party.

The Taoiseach has been responsible for the most massive and sudden drop in support any party have experienced ever, to our knowledge, in this State. One fifth of those who said they would vote for the party in May has evaporated in five months. He is responsible for the erosion of confidence in our institutions, a growing disillusionment with politics among the electorate. He is responsible for deep concern among the Garda Síochána that justice is being subverted by interference of a type and on a scale that endangers the morale of the force and its effectiveness.

The Taoiseach is responsible for the collapse of the Anglo-Irish relationship to which, in a Government in which he was not dependent on Deputy Blaney, he professed to see the way through to a solution of the Northern Ireland problem. He is now responsible for discrediting the economic planning process at a moment when confidence in our ability to plan our future is critical. Rather than telling the truth about just how dangerous our situation is his plan attempts to create a belief that inflation, unemployment and the financial crisis can all be overcome simultaneously without any serious attempt to tackle the underlying causes of these difficulties.

His team of Ministers, to which he is proposing to add today, are the weakest in the history of the State, by common consent. I defy anybody who is not a committed supporter to contest this. This is as a result of a deliberate decision by the Taoiseach to exclude people of experience and ability because they will not accept the erosion of cabinet government. They will not go along with the attempt to install a presidential system contrary to the spirit of the Constitution.

In the past six months on the part of many members of the Government we have seen failures which individually and collectively add up to a record which could not command the confidence of the House and does not do so. The Minister for Finance was responsible for the phoney budget of last March which covered a loss of £370 million revenue and expenditure cuts by bringing forward phoney money from next year regardless of the damage to industry and employment. The same Minister was either unwilling or afraid or unable to give the full truth to the Dáil last July because of his fear of the Dáil and his knowledge of the inability of the Dáil to respond while in recess.

We had the Minister for Health proposing drug cuts for the poor but not from the rest of the community. He has been insensitive to any consideration of social justice. The Minister for Fisheries failed to take any action in Brussels in regard to Celtic Sea herring stocks, despite evidence that stocks are there, despite the fact that has been evident in Brussels in the last few days — and I have seen the evidence of it myself — that the Commission are willing to allow some fishing if a limitation to a reasonable amount can be guaranteed. The Minister did nothing until the crisis arose. Then, as recorded by Deputy Molloy, he agreed to go to Brussels the next day, broke his promise the following day, thus leading to the costly blocade of ports which forced him finally to get out to Brussels and raise the issue which he could have raised and settled months ago.

Then there is the Minister for Agriculture who enjoys less confidence amongst the agricultural community than any of his predecessors because of his evident unfamiliarity with and unwillingness to come to grips with the problems, indeed his dismissal of the problems as no problems.

There is the Minister for Foreign Affairs who lacks credibility outside Ireland as anyone with international contacts will know.

(Interruptions.)

There is the Minister for Labour who was responsible for an unnecessary 5 per cent confrontation and the resultant costly settlement which could impose an intolerable burden on public finances in 1984. Then there is the Minister for Justice whose seven months in office have been accompanied by a sharp decline in Garda morale, as a result of his interference and attempted interference with the enforcement of law and order by the Garda Síochána.

Jim Mitchell.

Does the Deputy want the true story?

(Interruptions.)

Order, please.

There is then the Minister for Defence whose remarks some time ago forced the Taoiseach to reprimand him, disassociate himself from those remarks which appeared to force the Taoiseach into taking a particular and unfortunate course of action the following day.

There was also the Minister for Industry and Energy who was prepared to mislead the public on the cost of Whitegate in terms of oil prices and who was corrected by the then Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism.

There was the Minister for the Gaeltacht — now shifted I notice — who ignoring his own Department's affairs has been at times, as far as the public can judge, engaged in mud-slinging rather than in action to deal with the problems again.

Mud-slinging.

(Interruptions.)

I need not continue the litany. No Government in 60 years have managed, within seven months of coming into office, to demonstrate their individual and collective incapacity as that led by the present Taoiseach. For this reason we will vote against the motion. The nomination of the two Ministers, not because of their standing or capacities, which I do not call into question, but because the Government they are proposing to join, and which will thereby be constituted, will, even with these two additions, remain incapable of acting effectively or indeed of doing anything but accelerate the process of disintegration and dissolution within the Government party who are having such disastrous effects on our country's standing abroad and on the confidence of people in this State that politics is incapable of solving their problems or even of being relevant to them.

This Government are now incapable of doing anything but harm, harm to our image abroad, harm to confidence at home, harm to investment in future employment — now inhibited by the political uncertainty generated — harm to our political institutions which they are undermining in their efforts to stay in power at all costs, harm indeed — and this I have to admit is the least of my concerns — to the Fianna Fáil Party itself. Let us not under-estimate the damage done already or the problems of rectifying this damage. A new Government coming into office now — even after the cuts announced in July last — would have to find £400 million more than would have been the case had the January budget been adopted. They would have to restore the shattered relationship with Britain, with the British Government on which, on the Taoiseach's own statements when first in office, progress with respect to Northern Ireland largely depends. A new Government would have to undo the damage done in Northern Ireland by the manner in which, in seeking to deliver to Deputy Blaney on his demands, the present Government have effectively encouraged extremists in Northern Ireland on both sides. A new Government would have to restore confidence and respect in our political institutions which have been shattered by events of the past seven months, above all by the subordination of all considerations of national interest to the objective of staying in power at all costs.

If this vote is passed with the support of Fianna Fáil members who have stated publicly their lack of confidence in the Taoiseach and have sought to preserve their own popularity by dissociating themselves from him, then they will have to face the consequences of their about-turn. However they may rationalise their actions if they vote for this motion the public will see this vote as quite simply an act of political expediency which will further alienate the electorate not just from the Taoiseach or the Fianna Fáil Party but from those individual Fianna Fáil Deputies also who will not, in this free Parliament, exercise their votes in accordance with their publicly proclaimed consciences.

(Dublin North-Central): The Deputy has sunk very low.

Normally one would have no hesitation in supporting the proposals of a Taoiseach to add to his Cabinet. But in the present case, in these circumstances, in the circumstances surrounding the resignations of the two senior members of the Cabinet, it is not possible for us to support the Taoiseach's recommendations here this afternoon. The extraordinary circumstances that led to the necessity for the Taoiseach to come in here this afternoon are that he, as Taoiseach, apparently demanded a new brand of loyalty from members of his Cabinet. He demanded, for continued membership of his Cabinet, that members of his Cabinet would support him in a vote of confidence in his position as leader of the Government party. In other words, he demanded, as the price for continued membership of the Cabinet, support of certain members of his Cabinet in another forum, in the Government party forum. When the two Ministers found they were not, in conscience, able to give that kind of support they left, they tendered their resignations to the Taoiseach. But the reason, the precipitating fact of their leaving was this new additional standard of personal loyalty demanded by the Taoiseach of their membership of the Cabinet.

That is one ground on which we would oppose these nominations here this afternoon because were we simply to accept these nominations in fact we would be tacitly accepting a new standard of loyalty for membership of the Cabinet. I think that would be wrong. It would be my contention that the requirement of personal loyalty to the Taoiseach of the degree being sought would not appear to be consistent with Article 28.4.1º of the Constitution which requires that the Government shall be responsible to Dáil Éireann. If there is a new individual personal standard now enunciated by the Taoiseach then it would be wrong of any Member of the Dáil in any part of the House to vote for these nominations.

I have no personal animosity at all toward any of the people nominated here. But there is nonetheless a very serious principle at the heart of these nominations. The implication of the Taoiseach's need to come for these additional posts is that there is a degree of personal loyalty, now sought, which is not in my view appropriate to past experience of membership of the Cabinet. It is true that there must be loyalty to the office of Taoiseach; all of us understand that requirement. As a member of the Cabinet — one is nominated by the Taoiseach to membership of the Cabinet — one is loyal to the office of Taoiseach. If that kind of loyalty to the office of Taoiseach is not continued, cannot be given, then, in conscience, membership of the Cabinet should not continue. But it is totally different that a necessary condition of membership of the Cabinet be that a Member be personally loyal to the Taoiseach. That is a degree of loyalty that does not appear to be consistent with the ordinary responsibilities cast on membership of the Cabinet within Government. Personal loyalty of an individual kind, of this kind, is different from loyalty to the office of Taoiseach. One might ask in respect of this change — this change which it is my submission will be made in — in giving the new posts has the Taoiseach made clear the new conditions? Have these new conditions been sought from those who are now going into membership of the Cabinet? When replying here this afternoon would the Taoiseach let us know what was the nature of the conditions sought by him from the new members of his Cabinet in the event of any further disagreements within the Government party? Has the Taoiseach obtained from the new Members their support in advance of any such meetings? Has the Taoiseach made it clear to those new members of his Cabinet that not alone does he require loyalty to the office of Taoiseach but that he now requires individual personal loyalty to him as party leader? We should get answers to those questions this afternoon. In the main, they are the reasons why we are opposed on constitutional grounds to these appointments.

The Taoiseach has a perfect right under the Constitution to dispense with the services of members of his Cabinet. Constructively he fired those Ministers because they were not in conscience in a position to give him the degree of personal loyalty required by him. Presumably those who remain in the Cabinet, by implication, have given such a degree of personal loyalty to the Taoiseach. These appointments may be in conformity with the presidential style adopted by the Taoiseach but there are grounds for believing that the implication in the Taoiseach's appointments this afternoon are not consistent with the spirit of the Constitution, in particular Article 28.4.1º, the answerability of the Government to the Dáil.

Another reason why we are opposing these appointments is because of the political position of the division within the Government party and the fact that there was a recent challenge to the Taoiseach within his own party. The fact that this party is in a minority Government means that there are intensely serious side consequences for the country arising from those divisions within the Cabinet. A great deal of the energies of the Cabinet must now be devoted to the simple task of political survival. All Cabinets have that duty but that for this one more than most seems to be the central, important ongoing task at a time when we all know that the position of the economy is very serious.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Government's incapacity to lead the country will be changed as a result of these appointments. The divisions in the Government are open and clear. At least 22 members of the Government party — admittedly in another forum and maybe not here this afternoon — voted against the Taoiseach's continued leadership of their party. They voted against him on serious grounds which they expressed. That is another reason why it would be wrong of us to support these nominations which come from a Taoiseach who has difficult problems in his own party. It would be wrong of us simply to rubber stamp the appointments and accept them as normal appointments. They are not normal appointments. This is an extraordinary, unprecedented situaton. I am not aware of any previous case where senior Ministers of such ability left a Cabinet. In the Taoiseach's exchange of correspondence with the Members concerned we did not learn of any dissatisfaction by the Taoiseach with the ability of those Members. There was no such implication. Their only sin, if it was a sin, was that those Members said they could not give the degree of personal loyalty now required by the Taoiseach, apparently for his own survival.

In my view it is against the spirit of the Constitution for the Taoiseach to ask the Dáil for support in those circumstances. On reflection I am sure he will realise that he cannot legitimately expect that support from the House. This gives us the first opportunity since the Dáil went into Recess to show by our votes that we are opposed to indiscriminate cut-backs in social areas of public expenditure, particularly in health. By our vote we can show that we cannot give confidence to the Government and the new appointments. The fact is that if we are to support these appointments — I make this point to all Members, those who have supported the Government up to now or who have abstained on certain issues — we are legitimising the expenditure cuts of July 1982. These are not simple additional posts to the Cabinet. Those who support these appointments are saying to the Taoiseach, and his Cabinet, "Carry on with the announced projections of policy, with what has been said in the economic plan and with what has been done with the health services up and down the country". Those who vote for these nominations today are legitimising such expenditure cuts and are saying that they approve of them.

This is our first opportunity to oppose the disgraceful back door supplementary budget introduced by the Government on 31 July. This is not a normal filling of Cabinet posts. There are constitutional, political and economic grounds for opposing the cuts made when the Dáil was in Recess. Members of all parties are now having their first opportunity to protest publicly against the welching on the public service pay agreement. This is no routine vote, it is a serious matter that goes right to the heart of the Government's credibility. The Taoiseach who does not enjoy the full support of his own party, admittedly in another forum, and against whom there are whisperings in his own party, has asked the House to approve nominations to his Cabinet and I say that he should not get that support on the grounds that what he is doing is exceptional, unprecedented. There are no good grounds for thinking that the Members who were in the Cabinet should not have stayed there. They were ready to continue to serve, as they explained, but a new standard of personal individual loyalty was demanded of them by the Taoiseach. I do not know of any case in the past where a Taoiseach demanded loyalty of this level. Therefore, we are entering into a new interpretation of membership of the Cabinet. It would be retrograde, very serious and irresponsible of the Dáil simply, after a brief discussion, to pass these nominations. We must give this matter the most searching debate.

The Taoiseach should indicate the new conditions he has sought from the Members he proposes to appoint to his Cabinet. Will he outline those conditions and tell the House if he has sought from them guarantees of support in the event of further disagreement within his party? We have no choice but to oppose these nominations. In normal times we would support the appointment of such members to the Cabinet. There are many other matters on which we can oppose the Government on economic and social grounds. We do not need to look up every matter coming before the House to seek material for disagreement with the Government. This is not such a matter. I do not take any comfort, like many other Members, from the present divisions within the Cabinet because it means that since they are in Government less time can be given to the country's affairs. I cannot in conscience support these nominations for the reasons I have outlined.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It should not come as any surprise to the Taoiseach, or the Government, to find that the proposal to appoint two Ministers is being opposed. I know it does not come as any surprise to the country. In fact I am sure the country would regard approval of these proposals by the House without question and a vote as a grave dereliction of duty. In the ordinary course of events such proposals come from a Taoiseach who has had confidence voted in him by the House on his appointment to that office. In March when the Cabinet was submitted to the House for approval I pointed out that it was notable not so much for the names that it contained as for the omissions. I had in mind such Members as Deputy Colley, a former Tánaiste, and former Ministers, Deputies Molloy, Sylvester Barrett and O'Kennedy, to mention but a few. It occurred to me, and to many others, that those omissions disclosed an unhealthy state of affairs in the Government and in Fianna Fáil. We did not have long to wait before those thoughts became fact. Not alone does the Taoiseach in coming before the House not have a fresh vote of confidence in him from the Deputies in the House but he comes before us with ample evidence that he does not enjoy the confidence of anything like the majority of the Deputies in the House. There is positive proof that between 90 and 100 Deputies do not have confidence in the Taoiseach. If the House pass this motion without a vote we will be voting confidence in the Taoiseach:

We had the extraordinary event a short time ago when two senior members of the Government, Deputy Desmond O'Malley, who has been mentioned on many occasions as a possible leader of the Fianna Fáil party, and Deputy Martin O'Donoghue handed in their seals of office and the responsibility that goes with serving as Ministers in a Government because they obviously had come to the conclusion that it was no longer an honour to serve in Government under the present Taoiseach. They walked out of a Government just as I believe the former Tánaiste refused to serve ab initio in the Government because he did not regard it as an honour and he would not shoulder that sort of responsibility.

Those are things which the country cannot overlook and those are things which I regard as evidence that we should vote against the proposal before us as an indication that we have not got confidence in the Taoiseach. I believe, if the Taoiseach considered the position seriously, that instead of coming in here today and submitting the names of two Deputies for appointment as Ministers he would have driven to the Phoenix Park, asked the President to dissolve the Dáil and hold a general election. That would have been a more responsible performance and would have been much more in the interests of the country than what the Taoiseach is doing.

For the past 12 years when Fianna Fáil have been in office the country has jogged along from one internal row within Fianna Fáil to another, starting with the arms crisis. Far be it from me to rake up the rights and wrongs of that performance but as a result of this a number of senior Fianna Fáil Ministers were dismissed or resigned and this started the trouble within the Fianna Fáil Party. A war started against the then Taoiseach, Jack Lynch. They niggled at him until they got rid of him in the dying days of 1979. He was succeeded by the present Taoiseach. He was hardly back from the Phoenix Park after his appointment when the other faction within Fianna Fáil declared war on him and started to get rid of him.

That war has been going on from then until now. This is at a time of world recession. It is difficult to govern the country at this time. Nothing short of a united team in Government under a respected Taoiseach has any chance of getting the country out of the mess it is in. What chance has the country when it is being led by the present team? You might as well have a football team going on the field with the forwards not speaking to each other, when one forward will not give a pass to another and the captain of the team, because of personal dislikes, will not give directions to the right man to take free kicks. Such a team would have as much chance of winning as the country has of succeeding under the present regime.

In the interests of the country we must have a general election. The people must be given a chance to clear out the present regime for the reasons I have stated. Furthermore, through bad judgment, ill luck or worse the country has been held up to scorn and ridicule throughout the world.

Could I ask the Deputy to direct his thoughts more directly to the motion before us? In doing so I remind the Deputy that in the next motion there will be ample opportunity for him to wander as far as he is wandering at the moment. The motion before us deals with a motion by the Taoiseach in respect of the appointment of Deputies Denis Gallagher and Gerard Brady as members of the Government.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I am making the case that this motion invites us to propose confidence in the Taoiseach by giving him authority to appoint two Cabinet Ministers.

I am reluctant to take issue with the Deputy on that. As the Deputy understands, that is not the motion before the House.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It is.

No. I will read the motion for the Deputy, which is:

That Dáil Éireann approves the nomination by the Taoiseach of Deputies Denis Gallagher and Gerard Brady (Dublin South-East) for appointment by the President to be members of the Government.

(Cavan-Monaghan): We are ad idem, we are on the same wavelength. I am saying that by doing that we are proposing confidence in the Taoiseach. I do not accept that the Taoiseach is a fit and proper person to appoint two Ministers to this Cabinet and I am briefly giving my reasons for saying this.

May I remind the Deputy that that is not the motion before the House? The Deputy appreciates Standing Orders as well as I do and he also appreciates that in the motion which follows, No. 9, he will have ample opportunity to refer to his confidence or lack of it in the Taoiseach.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I take it that Motion No. 9 is The Way Forward, the document which the new Deputy had under his arm when he was introduced. I agree that that would give me that scope. This motion also gives it to me.

The Deputy cannot tell the Chair what the motion does. The Chair has already indicated to the Deputy what the Chair's interpretation of the motion is. I concede that it is permissible for any Deputy to refer to what might be background considerations, but the Deputy has been speaking since I took over the Chair and he has not yet referred to the motion. I am doing no more than reminding him of that fact.

On a point of order, I made my contribution earlier and the Chair seemed to regard it as entirely appropriate that I should give as my reasons for not supporting the motion that the Taoiseach, in my view, does not have the moral authority to make these appointments——

Deputy FitzGerald will accept that while I am in the Chair I interpret what is appropriate to the best of my judgment.

Speaking on a point of order the Ceann Comhairle would point out that——

That does not arise. I am the Ceann Comhairle while I sit in the Chair.

I appreciate that, but it has been the practice in this House that the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle rule similarly. It makes life impossible if the whole nature of the debate changes every time the occupant of the Chair changes. The debate here has taken place on the basis that we are entitled to say that these appointments should not be made because the person making them has not the moral authority to make them and because the team he has, even without these two Members, is one which has not got the confidence of the people. I made these points and I addressed myself exclusively to these points and nothing in what I said was found to be out of order. I submit that we must have one consistent set of rules of order.

What Deputy FitzGerald asserts now is not in accordance with established precedents and rulings in this House. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle or any Acting Chairman is entitled while he occupies the Chair — indeed, it is required of him — to interpret Standing Orders as he sees fit. In so doing now I am asking Deputy FitzGerald and Deputy Fitzpatrick to accept that that is my right. I do not want to inhibit any Deputy in making his contribution. I think Deputy Fitzpatrick was about to accept that the reminder I gave him was in accordance with what he thought I should be doing, and that it was not his intention to treat this as a motion of no confidence in the Taoiseach.

Nobody suggested that, but I think we are entitled to some consistency in the rulings of the Chair. The basis on which I on behalf of my party put forward our objections to this motion was accepted by the Ceann Comhairle and I was allowed to make my speech. It would be intolerable that other Members should not be entitled to take the same line and the same position and since consistency in rulings is desirable I thought it might be helpful to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to indicate to him the line the debate was taking and the line that had been accepted by the Ceann Comhairle.

I do not accept that Deputy FitzGerald would expect me to depart from what I regard as the proper interpretation of my office as Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Surely he is not denying me the right to what I think is the duty which the House has placed on me to interpret Standing Orders as I think fit and appropriate.

I would not suggest that for a moment, but I think it is part of the duty of whoever is in the Chair to maintain consistency in rulings throughout the debate to avoid confusion and disorder. I am seeking only to help the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in giving him information relevant to the carrying out of his duties in that respect.

I have never been inconsistent in my dealings whether affecting that side or this side of the House. I now ask Deputy Fitzpatrick to proceed.

(Cavan-Monaghan): On a point of order, may I say very briefly how difficult it is for a Deputy to debate in the House, an ordinary Deputy without a script or other things, when he is allowed to pursue one line following the line of two other speakers permitted by the Ceann Comhairle for a considerable time and then the occupant of the Chair changes — and I shall not decide who is right or wrong — but the rules of debate seem to change at the same time. I would make only one appeal from my heart, that the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle should get together and agree on an interpretation of the rules at least for the duration of one debate. That is not unreasonable.

Deputy Fitzpatrick will accept my ruling. I am asking him to direct his remarks to the motion before the House.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Nothing other than a Government composed of a united team and a respected leader has any chance of getting this country out of the mess it is in at present. I sympathise with these two new Ministers on the burden that we are seeking to impose on them by approving their membership of the Government. If they look back not so very far they will find that at the beginning of this year Ministers were operating on the basis of full and plenty. There was no scarcity of money, no scarcity of money for education. We had 77,000 new health cards issued. Everything seemed to be rosy in the Department of Education. In that Department we now find that the pupil-teacher ratio is gone. It is no more a binding guideline or rule; you may operate it as you like or within the scope of the money available. That would be a very difficult position for Minister of State Brady to take over. The last election was fought on the basis that classes would be cut to a minimum, to a manageable number so that teachers would have an opportunity of giving individual tuition. We have just heard — perhaps that is what he walked out of — the predecessor of the Minister-elect saying that shortly before he left the matter of small classes and the pupil-teacher ratio was no longer regarded as binding. It would be interesting to know which rules the Minister-elect has got.

That is a position for a man-and-a-half. I do not say that Deputy Brady is not a competent Deputy but he is being thrown into this Department where apparently the pupil-teacher ratio has gone by the board and the school transport system is being tampered or done away with as we know it. That is a great change from the beginning of the year. That is why I say the Taoiseach should be calling a general election instead of nominating new Ministers.

The Minister for Finance did some study and he discovered the words opposite to "doom" and "gloom". Many people did not have words on the tips of their tongues to describe the opposite of "doom" and "gloom" but up came the Tánaiste with the boom of drums to signal a great plentifulness of everything the people wanted and bloom to describe flourishing plants and everything up and coming. That was the position that most people thought we were in until the Dublin South-West by-election took place. Throughout that Dublin by-election the boom and the bloom were in full flight. That came to an end after the Dublin West by-election. Instead of talking about boom and bloom they are going to close down hospitals.

The Deputy realises that he is not doing justice to the motion before us and I ask him to do so.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I would probably have been finished long ago if my line of thought had not been interrupted.

That would have been of much relief to the Chair and other Members.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I can take insults.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It reflects the soundness of my advice that in order to cut back on long speeches the Ceann Comhairle and Leas-Cheann Comhairle should get together over a cup of coffee and decide on the rules.

Mention was made of the fishermen. The trouble with the fishing industry, agricultural industry and every other industry stems from one thing — in-fighting in that party. I warn the new Ministers not to become involved in intrigue and fighting instead of devoting their full attention to the business of the nation. Members of the party are too busy now looking over their shoulders to see who will stab them in the back. Is it unreasonable to ask how much departmental work Ministers did over the last two months? Perhaps Deputy Collins did some. I do not know. However, he was far enough away not to be bothered about the Taoiseach's trouble and perhaps he did do some solid work in China. How much work will Ministers do for the next month now that they have got the okay for the by-election in Clare? Far less. It would not be surprising if there was boom and bloom in Clare over the next few weeks. If one had the eloquence of Deputy Flanagan one could make a good evening's crack out of it. It would be funny if it was not so serious.

According to the Taoiseach the country is on its knees and needs all the care and attention it can get. The country is being neglected because of the in-fighting in Fianna Fáil. When Deputy McCreevy put the cat among the pigeons on a Friday evening what work was done during the ensuing two weeks? There were State cars going from constituency to constituency but they were not looking for potholes in the road which needed to be filled but rather were trying to get a vote for the Taoiseach and not for love of him either because they are writing him off. He is gone and it is only a matter of time. I will not go on for much longer.

Hear, hear.

The Deputy has done well. It is very amusing.

We have heard it all before.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Yes, but it is sad that it did not sink in.

The Taoiseach heard it and did not listen to it.

Not with the same pungency.

(Cavan-Monaghan): What I am saying is like offering congratulations compared to what was said about the Taoiseach on the fifth floor. This is like a celebration party.

Is this a serious Parliament?

What is the Deputy doing in it?

(Cavan-Monaghan): I was listening to a radio programme today and heard Olivia O'Leary talking about the Minister for Agriculture. She said he was such a nice fellow you could not say a word to him and she said he was a funny man as well.

What did she say about Saint Garret?

The Chair would like to inquire about what Deputy Fitzpatrick intends to say on the motion.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The motion deserves to be rejected by the House. The country will take a very poor view of it if we add on two more Members to a team who did not do a hand's turn for the last few months and will not do so for the next few months.

It is three-and-a-half months since the Dáil met and today we are asked by the Taoiseach to approve two nominations by him to the Government. During the recess the Government showed themselves to be heartless and cruel particularly to the weaker sections of the community. I suggest that anybody who wishes to show disapproval of the Government's actions has an opportunity to do so today by refusing to support the motion for the appointment of further members to the Government. The steps taken in the health area show total insensitivity to the needs of the poor, the ill and the elderly.

This is epitomised in the changes which took place in the health services and particularly in the GMS. It has yet to be explained how a Government can claim to have the slightest concern for social principles when they expend money on giving services to those who do not need them and save an equivalent sum of money by cutting back on services to the poor. That is what the Government have done since last July. Does the Taoiseach ask anybody in the House with a concern for social principle to support him now on this motion? At a cost of £8 million his Government extended benefits under the GMS to 78,000 extra people without a means test. People could earn £15,000 or £50,000 a year. Why that was done has not been properly explained. What requires an explanation even more is the saving of a similar sum of £8 million by cutting the benefits to those in possession of medical cards, by taking 900 items off the list and by ensuring that many people will suffer hardship as a result.

I accept that it may be fruitless on my part but I should like to point out that everything the Deputy is saying can be dealt with fully and adequately in the forthcoming debate on the economic plan, The Way Forward.

That is a matter for the Chair.

I am putting the point to the Chair.

The Chair does not need the Taoiseach to put points to him. The Chair is able to conduct his business quite effectively.

I ask the Deputy to please control his dictatorial tendencies. I have some rights in this House. I have sat here and listened to Deputies for some time. Every point raised by Deputy O'Keeffe on the economic and social fronts can be dealt with fully and adequately during the next four or five days when we are discussing the economic plan.

(Cavan-Monaghan): On a point of order, is it not a fact that if the Taoiseach lost the vote on this resolution——

I will not.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Taoiseach cannot anticipate that.

That is not a point of order.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It should be borne in mind.

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. When Deputy O'Keeffe was speaking I was about to interrupt but as I had allowed Deputy Fitzpatrick to indulge in what I regarded as background comment I was allowing the same latitude to Deputy O'Keeffe. I ask the Deputy now to move more directly to the motion before the House, as I know he will.

I must have been getting close to the bone when I drew an intervention from the Taoiseach. My message to this House is very simple. It is an invitation and an appeal to any Member of this House who disapproved of the actions of the Taoiseach and his Government, particularly in the social area, during the past three-and-a-half months, to deny the Taoiseach the approval of the House for the nomination of the new Ministers. That is the simple plea I make to Members who have a social conscience and who feel free to express their conscience on this motion. I will not labour the point.

I have quoted just one example of many which I think should be sufficient grounds for other Members of this House to deny the Taoiseach approval of his nominees. I say that on the basis of social principle and not in any way reflecting on Deputy Gallagher and Deputy Brady. I want to make it quite clear that there is nothing personal in what I am saying and if by chance, or mischance, this motion goes through I will be the first to congratulate the two gentlemen concerned. I make my objection on the social principle. This is the first opportunity for Members to express their views. I am inviting those who are able to express those views to do so by voting against this motion.

As the Taoiseach pointed out some minutes ago, there is a specific motion, "That Dáil Éireann takes note of the Government's White Paper, The Way Forward.” The White Paper is the important culmination of the Government's economic thinking during the past seven months. It shows clearly the way forward and the strategy in regard to economic and financial planning during the next four years. This kind of practical economic planning is the way in which this Parliament should adjust its thinking and get down to debating in a sensible and practical manner what is in the White Paper.

The White Paper contains basic proposals that are essential to the survival of the nation as an economic entity. It is in that area that we should be devoting our energies rather than having the prolongation of a debate which is essentially of a filibuster nature. It does no credit, particularly to Fine Gael. As I have seen in the past hour, members of that party are more concerned about point scoring and personality scoring rather than dealing with what is the basis of government, namely, the right of the Taoiseach to appoint Members to his Government when there are vacancies.

When the Dáil elected Deputy Haughey as Taoiseach they entrusted him with the responsibility of appointing members of his Government. If we were to conduct parliamentary business in a civilised manner that matter could go through automatically and then the Dáil could get down to the serious business of discussing the economic plan. That is what the Dáil should be doing and I should like the media to pay special attention to this aspect. This Dáil is being frustrated because of the irresponsible attitude adopted by Fine Gael. It is being frustrated in its effort to deal with the basic problems of the nation which were set out in the economic document presented last week by the Taoiseach and which is down for discussion on the Order Paper. We should have a constructive and responsible debate, not this futile debating society nonsense to which we have been subjected by several Fine Gael speakers. They were led by their leader, Deputy FitzGerald, who set the low line in his comments on individual Members.

The Chair asks for the co-operation of the Minister. It asks that he should not compound the problems of the Chair. The Minister has made his point. He will appreciate that if the Chair is to allow him to proceed on these lines then similar licence will have to be given to other speakers. The Chair is so indicating to the House and directs the attention of the House to Rulings of the Chair, page 51, under the subheading "An Leas-Cheann Comhairle". It states "An Leas-Cheann Chomhairle is appointed by the House and is responsible to the House and not to the Ceann Comhairle". I remind the House of that ruling. I will proceed, as has been my custom, to interpret Standing Orders in perhaps the rigid fashion I have been doing to date. I call on the Minister to conclude.

I appreciate the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's concern about the proper running of debates. I was referring to the fact that a completely wrong route was taken by the Fine Gael Leader when he engaged in character assassination of individual Ministers in Government, from the Taoiseach down. That was the type of contribution we had to listen to from the Leader of the Opposition who is posing as an alternative Taoiseach. It was the most shameful and disgraceful performance I have heard since I came into this House.

That is an attack on the Ceann Comhairle:

We should be debating the appointment of two additional members to the Government, which is the prerogative of the Taoiseach. The purpose of these appointments is to carry out the functions of Government. As a Fianna Fáil Government, we will continue to carry out our functions in Government as if we had the support of the majority of this House, and we will get the support of the majority, as we have done so far when we got our budget and Finance Bill through, and we will get our next budget and Finance Bill through this Dáil too.

I must remind the Minister that he is copying the attitude of speakers he has already condemned and I ask him not to proceed along those lines. Rather he should give good example to Deputy G. Birmingham who is anxious to follow him.

Far from the bad example given by Fine Gael, I hope the junior member of Fine Gael will follow the good example of a senior member of the Fianna Fáil Party.

In this motion we are asked to consider the appointment of two experienced Deputies — one, Deputy Gallagher, has already had experience in Government, and the other, Deputy Brady, is a Minister of State. The appointment of these two Members will ensure that the business of efficient and effective Government will continue and we will be able to concentrate our energies on the implementation of the economic plan which has secured widespread public support and sets out how we should proceed economically and financially in the short-term, medium-term and long-term. Irrespective of who is in Government it is important that we follow certain planning attitudes. To maintain our high credit rating abroad it is imperative that we follow an approach similar to that set out in the economic plan. In the world today, with all the uncertainty and insecurity that exists, it is very important for a small trading country like Ireland to have an economic plan which sets out the target——

I would like to remind the Minister to——

These two appointments will enable the Taoiseach to implement our top priority, that is, the economic plan. Fianna Fáil have always given this country responsible Government and this Government will be enhanced by the addition of these two Members. We will continue the stable, orderly and constructive progress which the country needs today. I hope Members will accept that these appointments are necessary and that we can proceed to a more detailed and constructive debate of the motion on the economic plan which will take place this week and next week.

The Chair will be relieved to hear that it is not my intention to follow the example set by the Minister for Agriculture. I intend to confine myself to the motion on the Order Paper which is the approval of nominations by the Taoiseach of members of the Government. What we are being asked to do here is approve the authority of the team captain-manager to make some substitutions in a depleted team. We refuse that authority because we do not like the way the team are playing and we say the team captain-manager lacks the moral authority to make decisions of that nature.

The only occasion on which the Minister for Agriculture touched on the subject before the House was when he told us that what was involved here was the Taoiseach's constitutional right to approve members of the Government. That is a familiar concept, if we recall when it was last invoked. That doctrine was invoked by the last Fianna Fáil Taoiseach, Mr. Lynch, on the occasion when the present Taoiseach departed that Government, to justify his handling of the situation. On that occasion he sought to avoid the Fianna Fáil Party taking a decision on their confidence, or lack of confidence, by a red herring. Of course, it is the Taoiseach's constitutional prerogative to nominate members of the Government but it is just that. It is to his obligation and his prerogative as Taoiseach that we should address ourselves. What do we know? We know 22 members of his party——

That is not relevant to the debate, and I do not propose to remind the House of this fact again. The Taoiseach has the right — it has not yet been taken from him — to nominate two members to his Government and Deputies should comment only on the motion.

Would it not be in order to pay some attention to and speak about the circumstances that led to the vacancies mentioned in today's motion——

The Chair accepts it might be permissible to make a passing reference to it, but if Deputy Cooney were in this Chair I am sure he would agree that the House should be discussing the motion.

——and why the motion is on the Order Paper?

The reasons why this motion is before the House might warrant a passing reference, but it may not be the subject matter of any Deputy's contribution. While I am in the Chair I will not allow that.

It is not intended to be a substantial part of my contribution. The Minister for Agriculture asked us to approach this motion on the basis that it is the Taoiseach performing a constitutional function.

The Deputy is not obliged to follow any request made or advice given by the Minister for Agriculture. He is expected to respond to the request and directions of the Chair.

We are asked today to approve or disapprove of certain decisions and nominations made by the Taoiseach. His right to make those decisions derives from the fact that he is the holder of the constitutional office of Taoiseach and 22 Members of his own party take the view that he is unfit to hold that office. With respect, that is a matter that is manifestly material to this debate.

It is not. The fact is that he is the holder of the office and in such capacity is entitled to and required to make these decisions. That is the matter before the House. The Deputy will confine himself to dealing with this and I will not remind him again.

I propose to do just that. The question faced by every Member is whether to vote for or against this motion. I suggest to those Deputies who have taken the view that they lack confidence in Deputy Haughey as Taoiseach and leader of Fianna Fáil that a logical consequence of that decision is that they refuse him the right to make these nominations because they are nominations which are the prerogative only of the office of Taoiseach.

Some of those Deputies who have voted "no confidence" in Deputy Haughey have taken advantage of considerable media attention to explain their actions. One thinks of Deputy Seamus Brennan, who tells us that his concerns are for those things that are fundamental to the state of politics in this country, how it is received by our young people. How will those young people receive it if these Deputies spend 12 hours on the fifth floor saying they have no confidence and then by their votes in this House say that they have confidence? If politics is to be debased, that vote debases it.

We accept that this is an adversarial system of politics where members of the Government are drawn from among the Deputies who form the Government party, but the public are surely entitled to expect that the leader of the Government party in selecting his team would form the best and most experienced team available. The Minister for Agriculture dwelt at length on the major problems we face as a nation and apparently we are to spend four or five days debating the Government's economic plan. If the problems are as acute as the plan suggests and as we all believe they are, surely there is a constitutional obligation on the Taoiseach to select without fear or favour from among the Deputies that make up his own party. It is perfectly obvious to every Member that this has not happened. If the Dáil sees fit to approve this motion and if the Ministers of State suggested are appointed, there will then be 27 office holders. Of those 27 office holders, all but Deputy Sylvester Barrett are drawn from that section of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party that has supported the Taoiseach.

No. I do not know why they put in my young constituency colleague to take up this silly sort of argument. Have they no old veterans full enough of venom?

Deputy Birmingham is well versed in debate and very familar with the order of the House. He knows he is giving unto himself certain licence in respect of this motion.

I am now specifically addressing myself to the selection of persons to be members of the Government and the criteria to be applied to that selection. I am suggesting that the criterion which has been applied not just to the appointments today but to the appointment of every person in the Cabinet is that they are among the personal supporters of Deputy Haughey in the Fianna Fáil Party. That is manifestly a matter of relevance. It appears we are not allowed to discuss the circumstances in which the vacancies arise, nor are we entitled to discuss the criteria to apply in filling them. What are we allowed to discuss?

You are entitled and requested to discuss what is in the motion. I have already read the contents of the motion and the Deputy has a copy of it before him.

We are asked to approve the nomination of Ministers in Government. In the aftermath of the famous meeting on the fifth floor a number of Deputies who made up the group of 22 were asked what they now expected of the Taoiseach. They indicated that this had been a momentous day in the history of Fianna Fáil and that all their problems were at an end. Deputy Ciarán Murphy, among others, indicated that they expected from him an openness, a willingness to draw his team from among all sections of the party and that appointments would henceforth be made on the basis of ability. What evidence is there that this has happened in the nominations made today? When the public considered how Deputy Colley and Deputy Ciarán Murphy and the other 20 Deputies vote, surely, they are entitled to consider that not only do they propose to vote differently in the Dáil Chamber than they voted on the fifth floor but that even the minimal conditions they set down after that meeting are to be flouted, and yet that is a matter of no consequence?

Presumably the public will shortly have the opportunity in a general election to pass judgment on the Taoiseach as well as on the Leader of the Opposition and the leader of the Labour Party, but in a very real sense the people who are on trial today are the 22 Deputies who state upstairs that they have no confidence and propose to vote differently downstairs.

Like other speakers, I pass no judgment whatever on the competence of the two Deputies put forward. Deputy Brady I have known as a competent member of the corporation and as a fine Minister of State. I am interested in the appointment of Deputy Denis Gallagher because my recollection is that one of the Taoiseach's first acts when nominated as Taoiseach was to dismiss Deputy Gallagher to the back benches. I wonder what change of heart or conversion has taken place that Deputy Denis Gallagher, who on the day Deputy Haughey was elected Taoiseach was not a suitable person to serve in the Cabinet, is now the person to re-emerge, purged apparently, as the new Minister for the Gaeltacht.

When it votes the House will pass judgment on the Taoiseach's appropriateness to perform a constitutional function. The majority of Members of this House are clearly of the view that Deputy Haughey is not the appropriate person to perform those and other constitutional functions. If that is their view their obligation is to vote against this motion.

The only issue before us at present is the suitability of the two Deputies whom I have proposed for membership of the Government. There is no other issue involved in this motion. A number of extraneous matters have been raised during the course of the debate. Deputy O'Leary of the Labour Party after the rejection of his position by his party at a full conference of that party in Galway is understandably deeply concerned about personal loyalty, but no such issue arises in the case of these two nominations.

Deputy FitzGerald, as is usual, concentrated on personal attack and vilification, but I am well used to that from Deputy FitzGerald. I am used to it from the first day I was elected Taoiseach in this House. He has made a large number of sweeping, unsubstantiated attacks on myself and on individual Ministers. I do not intend to follow him along that road, but I must reject totally all the charges he has made. As the Minister for Agriculture has already indicated, we are saddened by the fact that when the country would expect us seriously to debate the economy and the difficult state in which the economy now is, as well as the Government programme for dealing with the economy, we have instead spent futile hours engaged in the lowest from of political debate, namely, personalities. I want to make it absolutely clear to Fine Gael that this is what they have been doing. Cloak it how they will, disguise it in whatever words they can, they have been engaged for the past hour or so in simple, naked political personality vilification.

There is only one decision for this Dáil to take and that is whether to agree with my proposal that Deputy Gallagher and Deputy Brady are suitable and fit persons to be members of the Government. I submit that they are suitable and fit persons and that they will aquit themselves well in the offices to which I am assigning them. I have every confidence in their ability and capacity to do so and I confidently recommend them to this House as such able, competent, fit and appropriate persons.

I had no idea at the outset that the debate would continue for such a length of time and in the last half an hour I decided to say something very briefly on it.

The Chair cannot permit you to say anything. The Chair in deference to precedent will allow you to ask one brief question only. The Taoiseach has concluded and you or any other Deputy may not make a contribution now. I am sorry about that.

Question put:
The Dáil divided: Tá, 83; Níl, 78.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Bellew, Tom.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • (Dublin South-East).
  • Brady, Gerry.
  • (Kildare).
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matty.
  • Brennan, Ned.
  • Brennan, Seamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Sean.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Clement.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Filgate, Eddie.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom.
  • (Dublin South-Central).
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Paddy.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Donoghue, Martin.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corr, James.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael J.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Alexis.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom.
  • (Cavan-Monaghan).
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Fleming, Brian.
  • Governey, Des.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGinley, Denis.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Markey, Bernard.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies B. Ahern and V. Brady(Dublin North-Central); Níl, Deputies S. Barrett (Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn