Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Nov 1983

Vol. 345 No. 6

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Ministerial Pensions.

33.

Mr. De Rossa

asked the Minister for the Public Service if he will state, in view of the Taoiseach's comments at the Lord Mayor's Banquet on St. Patrick's Day in Cork to the effect that a substantial part of the misery which exists in society is derived from the cumulative acts of self-interestedness, of greed or laziness that infects our society at every level, whether the Government will set an example for all citizens by introducing legislation to prevent Members of the Oireachtas who are in receipt of salaries as TDs or Senators from drawing Ministerial pensions; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

34.

Mr. De Rossa

asked the Minister for the Public Service if it is proposed to change the pensions scheme under which former Government Ministers and Ministers of State receive pensions; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Minister for the Public Service (Mr. Boland)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 33 and 34 together. The arrangement under which Deputies or Senators who cease to be Ministers but continue to be Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas——

Mr. Mac Giolla

I cannot hear the Minister.

Mr. Boland

I propose to take Questions Nos. 33 and 34 together.

The arrangement under which Deputies or Senators who cease to be Ministers but continue to be Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas draw their ministerial pension in addition to their parliamentary allowance was made by legislation, that is, the Ministerial and Parliamentary Officers Act, 1938, following acceptance of the relevant recommendations of the Committee of Inquiry into Ministerial and other Salaries, etc. While I have under consideration a number of proposals relating to ministerial pensions, I do not propose to introduce legislation changing this arrangement.

Mr. Mac Giolla

Despite my protest, I still cannot hear the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid I had to use the safety valve recently. I did not turn it off and the Minister may not have been on the air. Perhaps the Minister would repeat the answer.

Mr. Molloy

What is the safety valve? Is it a way of shutting up the Opposition by turning off all the microphones.

Mr. Boland

I propose to take Questions Nos. 33 and 34 together.

The arrangement under which Deputies or Senators who cease to be Ministers but continue to be Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas draw their ministerial pension in addition to their parliamentary allowance was made by legislation, that is, the Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices Act, 1938, following acceptance of the relevant recommendations of the Committee of Inquiry into Ministerial and other Salaries, etc. While I have under consideration a number of proposals relating to ministerial pensions. I do not propose to introduce legislation changing this arrangement.

Mr. Mac Giolla

Would the Minister agree that, at this time of great hardship and depression, when people are being asked to tighten their belts, the payment of pensions to people who are still drawing salaries as Deputies will decrease the credibility of this House further? Would the Minister consider reviewing the whole procedure for paying pensions to Members who are still paid as Deputies?

Mr. Boland

The committee to which I referred examined this matter as far back as 1937. That committee was composed of Members of the House and non-Members. The recommendations were based on a number of criteria including an examination as to whether or not those who continued to be Members of the House and ex-office holders should qualify for a pension. It was considered important that those who had experience of office but were not then office holders should continue to serve as Members of the House whether in Opposition, and probably on the Opposition Front Bench, or members of the party in Government but not office holders. It was considered that their experience in the framing of legislation would be an advantage in the course of the enactment of legislation. In addition all elected Members of this House receive the same rate of remuneration. Nowadays politics is more of a full-time career than perhaps it was when this committee reported in 1937. There is no element of incremental payment in the salaries of Deputies such as there is in most other career structures. The payment of an allowance to former Ministers might be regarded as a form of incremental payment to Members of the House who are ex-office holders.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should not look at the Chair. I have not interfered with anything.

Mr. Boland

I am not sure whom I should look at.

Mr. Kelly

Arising out of the Minister's reply, would he consider seeking agreement with the Opposition whereby the Second Stage debate on the legislation circulated this morning——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a separate question.

Mr. Kelly

I must say I agree with Deputy Mac Giolla.

Mr. Boland

As the Chair pointed out, that is a separate matter. I should mention that when the Devlin Review Body were conducting an investigation into the appropriate salary levels applicable to the Members of the House and office holders, they stated in their 1979 report that they had set the levels applicable on the basis of the conditions of office and they had made a reduction in the amount of salaries payable to office holders generally because they qualified for this payment after a period in office. Consequently, it should be taken into account that the levels payable to office holders take account, on the basis of the review body's report, of the benefits of the allowances paid after a number of years.

An Ceann Comhairle

A final supplementary from Deputy Mac Giolla.

Mr. Mac Giolla

The Minister's explanation——

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please, Deputy.

Mr. Mac Giolla

Does the Minister not agree that a Deputy could come into this House and after three or four years in a ministerial post, get a ministerial pension while other Deputies have to be 15 or 20 years here before they get a pension. The pension granted bears no relation to the amount of time a Deputy serves in this House. Would the Minister not agree that the whole system should be reviewed as soon as possible?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a question. The remaining Questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.