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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 1983

Vol. 346 No. 7

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 3, 7,8,9 and 10. Private Members' Business will be No. 16. I should like to add that it is proposed to interrupt business at 5 p.m. for a statement on the Athens European Council meeting.

Now that the Taoiseach is back with us I should like to ask him if he can be of any assistance to the House, particularly to this party, on the question of the Estimates. We have ordered today item No. 3, Leave to introduce Supplementary Estimates, but we are more concerned about the Book of Estimates for 1984. Our Whip informs us, as a result of discussions, that the only problem preventing the circulation of the Book of Estimates to the Dáil is one of printing. That being so will it be possible for the Taoiseach to arrange to have photocopies of the principal pages of the Estimates circulated to us immediately? Otherwise, as the Taoiseach will understand, we will be given the Book of Estimates next Wednesday or Thursday and, without any opportunity to consider them, the House will be expected to debate them almost immediately. Can the Taoiseach be of any assistance to us on this matter?

The Book of Estimates should be published next Wednesday or Thursday and we will, naturally, make provision for time to debate them. That may involve the Dáil sitting later than would normally be the case. In so far as the question of any advance photocopies being made available is concerned I do not know if that is feasible because of the complexity of the method of preparation for printing. I will certainly inquire into that, and if it is possible to give any advance material or advance version before the printed copy I will try to do so, but I do not have any idea of whether it is technically feasible.

I am grateful to the Taoiseach for that assurance. The Taoiseach will recall that on previous occasions it has been possible to give us photostats of the principal page of each Department. As all Members are aware the Book of Estimates consists of a great deal of detail, but if we could have a week or so in advance a photostat of the principal pages of the Book of Estimates it would be of assistance. The Taoiseach will understand from his own days in Opposition that it is not very practical to expect an Opposition party to debate Estimates produced some hours before. However, I will wait to hear further from the Taoiseach on that matter.

I should like to ask the Taoiseach if he is aware that in this morning's newspapers, and in the media generally, there is what purports to be a leak of an important Government document, and if he can be of any assistance to the House in this matter? As the Taoiseach will understand, it is very undesirable for us in Opposition to be confronted with what purport to be reasonably authoritative statements about important Government policy documents in advance of any publication of those documents by the Government. Allied to that there is a question which I must raise, that there seems to be a deliberate policy from the Department of Education to give exclusive leaks to certain newspapers. There is a very strong suspicion that it is the Minister who is directly responsible for those leaks. I regret to have to say that.

The Chair allowed the Leader of the Opposition to develop his question on something that appeared in this morning's newspapers, but the Chair is now ruling that this does not arise on the Order of Business.

I submit it is a reasonable question to put to the Taoiseach, to ask him if he is in a position to confirm the statements in the media this morning about what purports to be an official document.

The Chair is satisfied that if the Chair was to allow that and every rumour or alleged leak that appeared in the newspapers to be discussed on the Order of Business we would not get anywhere.

I must deplore the ruling of the Chair on that matter. This is very important.

That may be so, but it would be impossible to carry on the business of the House if I permitted that.

I submit that the coverage in this morning's newspapers of what purports to be a significantly important Government document is not a rumour. It is something that the House should take notice of.

The Chair has ruled that it does not arise on the Order of Business.

I wish then to make one further point on the Order of Business.

On a point of order, in the course of raising this matter of concern—and which is a matter of concern to all of us—about documents being leaked, an allegation has been made against a Minister. I feel I am entitled to respond to that allegation.

Certainly.

I do not want to be out of order though I would like to say more.

I will deal with the point of order. The Chair feels that if a Member of the House, on the Order of Business, raises a matter which would attract such interest as the document in question, impromptu, without notice, without any limit on the amount of time that may be spent on it, makes a statement, another statement comes from this side of the House, another statement comes from there, the Chair would simply find it impossible to control the business of the House. If it were a debate that was lasting for half an hour, when the half hour was up the Chair would simply bring it to a close. But once a thing like this gets out of hand, the Chair feels, and feels very strongly that it would be impossible to control the business of the House.

Yes, I do not want in any way to impugn your ruling though if you had so allowed I would be prepared to answer. But I feel I am entitled to respond to a specific allegation about a Minister and to confine myself to that.

And I would like to reply to that.

That is the problem.

Well, if——

Would the Taoiseach give way for a second, please? I want to put it this way, that if the Leader of the Opposition or any other Member of the House—he does not have to be the leader of anything—stands up in the morning, if the Chair interrupts him before he has stated what he wants to say then the Chair is told: "Oh, you have not even heard what I wanted to say". The Chair should get the co-operation of the House. Deputies should make themselves familiar with Standing Orders and the procedures for running this House and debate them. They are being abused day after day.

I would simply like to make a factual statement, I hope, of a non-controversial character, to answer the point made about the Minister.

Of course, there is another way, in accordance with Standing Orders, of doing that.

I think, Sir, when an allegation is made about a Member of this House it is normally permitted for that Member to defend himself or herself or to be defended.

I should not have to spell this out of Standing Orders. The person who has been attacked——

Not "attacked". The Chair should withdraw that.

(Interruptions.)

——can, on notice——

Deputies

Withdraw that.

I resent your use of the word "attack".

(Interruptions.)

Of course I withdraw it. The person who has been involved in the allegation——

Allegation.

——can, on giving notice to the Chair, stand up and give a personal explanation. That is the way to do it.

A Cheann Comhairle——

(Interruptions.)

——or defend a member of my Government. Is the allegation withdrawn?

(Interruptions.)

The allegation was a political allegation.

As one who has been the subject of countless political allegations in this House I think I am entitled to raise one occasionally.

A Deputy

The Leader of the Opposition should withdraw that allegation.

I will not withdraw it.

(Interruptions.)

There is procedure laid down for all of these things. If the House wants me to run the House in accordance with Standing Orders and procedures I will do that; that is what I want to do. There is procedure under which the Minister concerned may, on notice to the Chair, some time during the day stand up and give a personal explanation if that is what is wanted.

On a point of order, I just want to put it to you, Sir, that what I am raising is very relevant to the business of the House.

Please, Deputy Haughey; it may be.

I am not making any further point, a Cheann Comhairle. I just want to say, by way of explanation that I raised these two matters——

Well, I am going to say by way of explanation——

——because they put this party at a serious disadvantage in dealing with the business of the House.

Government wild leaks.

(Dún Laoghaire): The people opposite are great people.

(Interruptions.)

Order, I am ruling any further discussion out of order.

I want to raise another matter on the Order of Business.

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, in view of the persistence of the Leader of the Opposition in this matter——

(Interruptions.)

——I wish to state quite simply the following: on the proposal of the Minister for Education the Government have directed an investigation into the question of the leaks of documents from the Department and, in the light of that investigation, will take a decision at their next meeting as to whether the matter needs to be referred to the Garda Síochána. I am entitled to say that in this House in defence of the Minister.

The Opposition should now withdraw their statement.

I am glad that the Taoiseach considers the matter of sufficient importance to consider sending it to the Garda Síochána. I am delighted to have that assurance from the Taoiseach.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputies

The Opposition should now do the decent thing and withdraw it.

I will await the outcome of the investigation.

(Interruptions.)

A Cheann Comhairle, I wish to move on to another matter.

The Opposition have already assumed what the outcome will be. They should have the grace to withdraw.

There is such a thing as a Minister being responsible for a Department.

I want the Taoiseach to consider a——

(Interruptions.)

Deputy E. O'Keeffe's brains are leaking out anyway.

(Interruptions.)

Order, please. Deputy Haughey on the Order of Business.

If the Minister for Finance can succeed in getting out his Book of Estimates he will be doing a good job.

(Interruptions.)

He should stick to his last and mind his own job.

He let down poor old Deputy John Bruton anyway.

(Interruptions.)

There is not much order when that kind of allegation is not withdrawn.

I just want to ask the Taoiseach if he will consider, in view of developments inside and outside this House, setting up a judicial inquiry into the affairs of Údarás na Gaeltachta?

That does not arise on the Order of Business and I am so ruling. I am calling Item No. 3.

Might I ask the Taoiseach, on the Order of Business, when the very important Dublin Transport Authority Bill will come before the House, the heads of which Bill went to the parliamentary draftsman well over 12 months ago?

(Interruptions.)

Order, Deputy Leyden.

On the Order of Business, would the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs inform the House what action is proposed in relation to illegal television broadcasting?

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

With respect to you, a Cheann Comhairle——

The only way that the Deputy can show respect for the Ceann Comhairle is not by saying it but by obeying his ruling and I am ruling that out of order.

I am not referring to myself, I am referring to the Minister.

It is not in order.

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle I have before the House a Private Notice Question——

That is another day's work.

You refused it yesterday. I am asking you again today.

I am ruling the Deputy out of order. I am calling on Deputy Gene Fitzgerald.

I am asking you, a Cheann Comhairle, if you will allow that question to be answered by the Minister?

The Deputy will resume his seat.

May I ask the Taoiseach, on the Order of Business, what steps the Minister for Agriculture is taking as a result of the closure of Lunhams Bacon Factory in Cork, with the loss of 120 jobs and the damage being done to the pig-producing industry?

It does not arise on the Order of Business.

Then, may I ask your permission, Sir, to raise it on the Adjournment?

The Chair will communicate with Deputy Fitzgerald.

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I intend asking the Taoiseach on the Adjournment if he will establish a judicial inquiry into the operations of Údarás na Gaeltachta leading up to the events which resulted in the dismisal of its chairman, members of the board and its chief executive.

The Chair will communicate with Deputy Molloy.

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I wish to raise on the Adjournment——

I wish to tell the Deputy that precedent provides that a Deputy may give notice of one item only on the Adjournment.

You have got me there, Sir.

Well, you got me yesterday, Deputy.

I got the one I wanted anyway.

With your permission, Sir, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the disastrous state of communications between the 25 counties and the forgotten one by the Coalition, despite the fact that we were assured in the House last week that there would be an improvement after Donegal town exchange went automatic yesterday but the situation is as disastrous as ever.

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

And the fact that we did not get the invitation, as promised.

I should like to ask the Minister for Justice if he would tell the House when it is intended to take the Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice Bill?

That will not arise until the Second Stage is concluded, and it will be fixed then.

We are coming up to the Christmas recess and I was just wondering at this stage——

When will the Hours of Work Bill be brought before the House?

Early in the next session.

Does the Taoiseach not remember that he promised in the House that the Bill would be before us in this session?

That is an argument.

I assume there is nothing in Standing Orders to prevent a Deputy, for the fifth occasion, attempting to raise a certain matter on the Adjournment. I propose to raise on the Adjournment the question of the denial to an Irish citizen of her right to speak in the Irish language, such denial having occurred in Mountjoy Prison.

The Chair will communicate with Deputy Tunney.

Why the delay in the Hours of Work Bill?

That does not arise.

The Taoiseach supplied information to the House that the Bill would be before us this session. I am only asking why.

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