Deputy Enright is in possession. Transport Bill, 1983 Second Stage (Resumed). He is not present. Deputy Flaherty.
Transport Bill, 1983: Second Stage (Resumed).
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".
I should like to take this opportunity of making a request to the Minister and to CIE. In the course of last week an announcement was made that there would be no bus services of any sort on Christmas Day——
On a point of order——
Deputy Conaghan on a point of order.
Is the Deputy on the Transport Bill, 1983?
Yes.
I offered to speak there.
As far as the Chair is concerned I called on Deputy Enright who had reported progress, he was not there, I called out the title of the Bill a second time; I looked to that side of the House and I did not see Deputy Conaghan offer. Would Deputy Flaherty give way?
I will.
Deputy Conaghan will understand that I called Deputy Enright twice, then I called the title of the Bill, I looked over there; I suppose I did not see the Deputy.
On this Bill the first thing one should bear in mind is the fact that CIE was established originally to bring some cohesion into the transport system that prevailed then. As we are all aware the private companies and so on operating the transport system at that time were finding it very difficult to provide a much needed service for the community. In order to provide this amenity the Government of the day decided that we should establish a public transport system. That public transport system was set up at a time when matters were in complete disarray in the whole of the transport world in this country.
Probably the question we should ask ourselves today is: has the public transport system failed the community or have the people failed the public transport system? My belief is that the situation obtaining has been brought about by both sides of that argument. We must examine why so much money is needed to maintain the present public transport system. When CIE was set up, when it became a monopoly in relation to the provision of a public transport service its board and management built up a situation in which they were lords and masters of the whole operation. They did not take into consideration the needs and various requests of the public as to how such service should be operated. There was much disappointment felt amongst the general public through inefficiency within the operation of the service, indeed also at the lack of co-operation and communication between the operators of the service and the general public.
It would appear that CIE engaged in the same role as all the other public bodies, becoming a bureaucracy, operating under the same guidelines as all other Departments and semi-State bodies, and that is not meant as any reflection whatever on Government Departments because they must operate under certain regulations and conditions. But a public transport company should be operated on a businesslike or commercial basis, and must take into consideration the requirements of the public they were established to serve. To my mind, CIE have failed dismally in this respect. They have the monopoly but they did not provide the service and did not co-operate with the public. Rather did they continue on the same lines inherited from the private companies. They did not adapt to the changing situation within the country, place themselves in a competitive market position or seek the business and trade available that could have been generated by the company had they adopted the right policies and attitude towards such public transport system.
In relation to the many difficulties prevailing within the company — and we are aware that there have been many serious strikes — there has been built up a certain ill will on the part of the general public as to how they have been and are treated by CIE. In so far as that attitude has developed and in regard to the situation prevailing within the company in relation to the many long disputes that have occurred, it must be emphasised that this is a two-way operation. Within the company there were the managerial staff, the supervisors or overseers — all of these personnel employed within the company — but it appears there was no communication or liaison between those officers and those they supervised. Many such disputes could have been nipped in the bud had proper consultation taken place at the beginning rather than allow them to escalate later into major ones through lack of co-operation between managerial staff, the unions and the remainder of the personnel involved. A serious look must be taken at CIE in an effort to bring some cohesion into the operation of the transport system and to bring about co-operation and understanding between the staff unions and the company.
There has been serious problems for CIE customers in rural parts of the country because of the way CIE's managerial system has been operating. There is no delegation from top to local offices of CIE: everything must go up to the top, ever, trivial matters, and come back down again. This is intolerably cumbersome and creates innumerable problems for the people at local level. Management in Dublin are not prepared to delegate responsibility locally even on minor matters. This must be revised if CIE are going to bring back lost business.
The company are in very serious financial difficulties and have been for years. The staff became demoralised and the general public frustrated, but of course CIE always thought they could go back to the Department where there was a bottomless pit of money to keep them going. We must look at this with realism if the company are to compete for the business that is there. We can see many private transport companies flourishing throughout the country. CIE boast that they take the cream of the transport business and leave the dross to private operators. I have had experience of private transport and I know how they have made use of the less attractive business left to them by CIE who give very little consideration to the way they handle the business of many firms in this city in regard to delivery of merchandise throughout the country.
It might be interesting to get a breakdown of the amount of money lost to CIE over a number of years because of claims on them in regard to the mishandling of freight, short or delayed deliveries, breakages and pilfering. I am sure it would amount to a considerable sum of money. I appreciate that in all transport business there will be losses through breakages. That applies to private as well as public transport, but in CIE there has been lack of discipline and gross negligence by employees in their day-to-day work. This caused much frustration not only to large companies here in the city whose business was handled by CIE but particularly to people in the country waiting for their merchandise to be delivered. As a result, the public went elsewhere in order to get a satisfactory service and that meant that private undertakings who could ensure a good service throughout the country at reasonable prices took business from CIE.
Because of all this it is necessary for CIE to take a serious look at their operations. Otherwise they will not survive. I welcome the Bill, therefore, because CIE will in future know where they stand and accordingly the general public may regain some of their lost confidence in the company and in its running. There is, however, one matter I should like the Minister to look at seriously. He told us he will not become involved in the day-to-day running of CIE. Though I agree with him to a certain extent, I must emphasise that because of the State's substantial subvention we as public representatives, here and at local authority level, must see that the taxpayers, whose money subsidies the company, will have access to the Minister in regard to possible serious problems of mismanagement.
This brings me to the question of all semi-State companies. Such organisations, who are getting large subventions of public money, should not be the final arbiters in decisions they make. In other words, the Minister should be able to obtain from CIE and other such companies answers, clearly understandable, in relation to the operations of the companies involved. That would give us a check on the management of these companies, and I suggest that the managements would be more careful, having in mind that these matters could be raised in the House for public discussion.
The counties of Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan and Leitrim have not benefited from the service provided by CIE. CIE transport operations in my constituency are coming to a standstill and the service provided for the public in the main is being operated by a private company. This is a classic example of what can be done when there is no alternative. Some years ago someone asked what would happen if CIE closed down in the morning. In my view, things would continue as they always did although there may be a little confusion for five or six weeks, but things would sort themselves out and people would develop other ways to provide a service which suited their needs. However, I do not think we should let the situation develop to that extent. Unfortunately, CIE are allowing that to happen in the rural areas.
When one looks at the sourthern part of this country one realises that these people are well served — they have rail services, bus services, air services and Sealink. Galway and Sligo have a very good service and the east coast have very good rail and road services. What have we in Donegal? Two buses per day to accommodate the general public who wish to travel. I would like to take this opportunity to pay a tribute to the personnel — drivers and managers — who operate the service in the Donegal region under great difficulties and who get very little recognition from their overlords in Dublin. It is disgraceful that in this day and age CIE who are benefiting from taxes paid by the people in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, should give those people the present passenger service, especially when one compares that service with that provided in the rest of the country.
Special types of buses should be used for carrying passengers in Donegal. The present vehicles may appear to be all right to the person who does not have to travel long distances in them, but if one takes a bus journey of 150 or 160 miles, one should expect a vehicle which is comfortable and passengers should be able to travel with pleasure. Unfortunately, the present vehicles do not reach those standards. The crews must listen to complaints from the travelling public, although they have no way to remedy the situation. They work under conditions which I and many other CIE employees would refuse to work under but they do their best with what they have. If the Minister investigates he will find that CIE have received numerous complaints from the travelling public and those operating the service, and that they have been asking for the facilities to be updated for the past three or four years.
We have to travel from Donegal through the part of the country which is unfortunately separated from us. During the present political climate many hazards and difficulties are experienced by the public and transport operators who have to travel 40 or 50 miles from Strabane to Aughnacloy. In fairness to the public and the operators all these matters should be taken into consideration and a fair deal should be worked out for an area which is totally denuded of any public transport service: we do not have a rail or air service. I would like at this point to tell the Minister that we in Donegal hope we will get a provision in the Estimates to go ahead with the airport in Letterkenny. This would provide a transport service to and from Donegal.
CIE have deliberately run down their freight service to Donegal. When the container service was in operation it was from the North Wall to Waterside in Derry. This meant the private company operating there and CIE could go to Derry, pick up the containers and deliver the goods the same day, but for some unknown reason the board of management decided that this should be changed. Now all Donegal freight traffic is transported to Sligo, then sent to Ballybofey, about 70 miles, and then delivered maybe another 140 or 150 miles. This has caused considerable delay in the delivery of the merchandise.
The Waterside railhead had difficulties because of the troubles in the Six Counties and the customs formalities they had to undergo. We met the chairman of a deputation from Donegal County Council and put a very strong case before him. We suggested that this link should not be discontinued. However, that was of no avail and the system was operating to the detriment of CIE and the people it was intended to serve.
A private company have now obtained most of the business and are giving a first-class merchandise delivery service throughout Donegal. I congratulate the people who provided that service. They come from my own village. They are neighbours of mine. They are young and energetic. They saw an opportunity, and they took a chance. They are providing what the general public wanted, a merchandise delivery service. They do not get one penny of subvention from anyone. They pay their taxes. They employ 30 people. They keep a fleet of vehicles on the road and give a first-class service to the public.
This is a classic example of what could have been done by CIE when they had a monopoly. They had the opportunity to give the people a service they required. Through their lack of concern, through inefficiency in their operation, through their lack of will to change with the changing times, they lost that business. They did not attempt to retain that business and when it was gone somebody on the board of management said: "We have lost the business. How can we get it back?" They then started making changes which were useless because the business was gone and people had found other means of obtaining the service.
Many firms in this city had to provide their own vehicles to give a service to their customers and had to run that operation at a loss in order to keep their business. Many private operators are now providing that service for those companies by keeping delivery vans on the road. It is quite clear that CIE have failed the public. To degree the public have failed CIE, but on balance the blame must lie with the company. It is not too late for the company to put their house in order and try to keep the business they have at present. There is a social aspect to this service but I do not agree that the social aspect is the one thing that should be allowed to keep CIE in existence. When the need is there other people will step into the breach and supply it. CIE really are on notice.
We had the McKinsey report on the railways. The two options were that we could keep them open or close them. There is still a role for the railways to play. They are being under-utilised deliberately by CIE. The board of management and the people who are responsible for running CIE did not go into the market place and look for business. They must streamline their rail operations to cater for changing needs.
In the report of An Foras Forbartha for 1981-82 in relation to transport and safety it is stated that during the seventies the total number of vehicles on Irish roads doubled and even more important the number of heavy goods vehicles trebled. Those who travel to and from Dublin realise the hazards created by the volume of heavy traffic. The number of articulated vehicles, large vans and other vehicles is increasing as the months pass. The Department of the Environment must pour money into the maintenance of our roads. Many improvements are needed to our national primary routes which are underdeveloped at the moment. Somewhere along the line those responsible for public transport and others concerned in the different Departments should get their heads together and put forward a plan which could be put into operation to entice people to use the railways to a greater extent for the transport of general merchandise and particularly heavy container traffic.
Roll on trucks and other vehicles could be designed which would be capable of carrying an articulated truck or lorry from Belfast to Dublin or from Dublin to Dundalk or Cork or Limerick or wherever the rail service goes. When it got to its destination it would offload and pick up another load and provide the service back to Dublin or Belfast. A survey might be carried out into this aspect of transport to see if it could be marketed.
Many operators are frustrated by the volume of traffic on the roads and by the conditions of the roads. The railways are owned exclusively by CIE. More traffic could be diverted to the railways where they are operating, if a policy was developed. It is up to the personnel within the company and the Department to come up with ideas. We need ideas and the people in the market place should be encouaged to use the service.
The Department and CIE have a responsibility to ensure that the rail link with the North is maintained. When I mention the North I am particularly concerned about the rail link between Waterside in Derry and Belfast. As we have no rail service in Donegal and no other services by air or sea, it is important that business should be generated by CIE and brought to Donegal via Derry. If we lose the link between Derry and Belfast the north will be denuded of any rail link.
I have heard in this House many strong protests in relation to the discontinuation of rail and other services. We public representatives from Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan and Leitrim never raise a voice about the treatment we get from a public transport company which our constituents support through their taxes. The Minister and the board and management of CIE must seriously consider giving a better deal to an area which has been completely denuded of all forms of public transport. When the rail service was discontinued we were told we would receive extra money for the development of roads, but we got nothing more than we would have got had the rail services still existed. We now have neither railways nor adequate roads. The bus service is only minimal. In Letterkenny all operations are closed. There is a bus shelter and a junior clerk hands our tickets. At Lifford one can stand in the rain or snow and wait to be picked up.
I do not think people in any other part of the country would tolerate what we have been expected to put up with since the closure of the railways in Donegal. A better deal must be given to people who still depend on public transport. They deserve at least the same consideration as other areas which enjoy maximum services. It is not good enough that CIE should display a poster in Letterkenny urging people to travel by rail because it is more comfortable. The only railway station is 100 miles away from Letterkenny. This demonstrates the thinking of those in CIE. It seems they do not even know that the rail service no longer exists in that part of the country.
I hope that serious consideration will be given to the points I have raised, especially in relation to my own constituency. CIE must give equal treatment to the people who are paying equal taxes to keep them in business.
My contribution would have been a great deal briefer had I not given way earlier. I thank Deputy Conaghan for the information regarding the bus services in Donegal because I will be going to Ballybofey next Monday night to attend a party meeting and the information will be of great assistance to me in deciding my mode of transport.
The particular matter I wish to raise is the decision by CIE not to offer any bus services on Christmas Day. I understand the economic climate that would encourage such a decision but I would draw attention to its impact on much of working-class Dublin. Traditionally Christmas Day is a family day and many people in Dublin who are living on very low incomes and have not the use of any private transport will not be able to get together with their families. This is particularly true in much of North Dublin and the western suburbs where many corporation and private dwellings have been built up during the past ten or 15 years. Parents who have children living in Blanchardstown and Tallaght will have no prospect of seeing them on Christmas day. I feel very strongly that a bus service. should be provided on Christmas Day. I realise there are cost factors involved and that men working on that day get triple pay and work a half shift. Perhaps there could be some modification of those arrangements because a service is vitally needed. I call on the Minister and the management of CIE to review the decision.
The Minister referred to the electrification of the Howth-Bray line and admitted that this would involve CIE in a major deficit for a long time to come. This has been the major investment undertaken by CIE, apart from the renewal of the bus fleet. Both these projects come under serious question. One sees the solid little London bus which seems to go on forever and must wonder whether the renewal of the bus fleet was a sensible use of money.
The decision regarding the electrification of the Howth-Bray line makes little or no sense to me and has been adversely commented upon by the people examining the spending habits of successive Governments. Deputy Conaghan referred to the fact that CIE are not developing potential revenue areas and this expenditure in the Dublin region is the best examples of that failure. A project to develop services to the western and north western suburbs would have been a money spinner and provide a desirable extension of the public transport system, instead of which we will have a superb, tiny pocket in the whole network, in large parts of which there are gaps or only very limited services. It is probably inevitable at this stage. When investment decisions are being taken, the present massive market in the new satellite towns in the northern suburbs — there being a basic railway line in that direction which could be developed to provide a more adequate suburban rail — must be examined by CIE. For a wise investment, they could get a reasonable return.
I wish to make one small comment on a serious matter raised by my constituency colleague yesterday, which is a continuing problem in my constituency. It is extremely chastening, at a time when we are here to grant further moneys to CIE, to reflect that for almost the best part of one and a half years, the people of Finglas have had no bus services in the evening time. This has changed life styles and has meant that people who visited relations, took up classes, followed one interest or another have had to curtail their activities. There has been exceptional hardships in Finglas, but this difficulty has also been experienced in Howth, Sutton and Tallaght and should not be allowed to continue. There are some internal CIE problems in relation to insurance which are supposed to be partly responsible for this. There are great suspicions in the locality as to why this has been allowed to continue where a very lucrative taxi business has developed to replace public transport which is not available at night. Even with the Minister's new decision, CIE will have a subvention for social activities, but in Finglas it is not merely a question of social need. With a large working class population, Finglas west and south could excellently support a bus service well into the night. There were particular problems last year, but the situation in the area has much changed in the intervening months and the continued withholding of services is not justified.
My reason for intervening in this debate initially was to draw the Minister's attention to the huge difficulties which the lack of a bus service are causing to many families, particularly in Dublin but I am sure in other cities as well, and most especially the lack of any bus service on Christmas Day.
Mr. Cowen
Our spokesman on Transport, Deputy Wilson, spoke at length and in great detail on this Bill yesterday, so I shall speak briefly. I welcome the Bill. It is important now to extend the limits on CIE's borrowing powers for capital and temporary purposes — the capital borrowing figures is increased from £180 million to £230 million and the temporary borrowing figure from £20 million to £40 million. We are informed by the Minister that CIE are reaching the statutory limits of their existing powers.
I question Government practice of transferring from direct State Exchequer borrowing to semi-State organisations. It is important to point out that in this exercise any reduction achieved in State borrowing and consequent increase in borrowing requirements of State organisations does not fundamentally alter the nation's finances. It may have been a practice followed by Fianna Fáil administration also, but I would draw attention to this.
The Minister points out that we have now entered into an unavoidable necessary period of rapid change. He gives the main reason as the galloping deficit which the Exchequer — which is the taxpayer — cannot afford to pay. Last year that deficit was £109 million. The Minister says that he has halted this gallop and that this year there will be a reduction of roughly £5 million, bringing it back to £104 million. He emphasised that it is the first reduction in 15 years. All I can say to that is that I would naturally welcome a reduction in the deficit, even if it has taken 15 years to create.
We welcome this reduction because the taxpayers' contribution to the financing of CIE will consequently be reduced. It is, however, important to ensure that the social content of this public service is not interfered with or diminished in any way by this reduction. The Minister states that a third of CIE expenditure is considered social. On the basis that one-third of our population reside in Dublin, there might be too much emphasis on that social content placed in the Dublin area. It is only proper to point out that with such a rapidly growing population in Dublin city and county it is very important, especially with our existing road networks, that in such a highly populated area special treatment would be given. The attitude of CIE in their spending, specially as regards their capital programme, is concentrated to the extent of more than a third on the Dublin area. That may be desirable.
Christmas is now less than two weeks away. Industrial relations within CIE present a sad picture of management-worker paralysis. I can scarcely recall a Christmas — a time when the volume of traffic is at its peak — without some disruption of CIE services. These stoppages are a result of actions by a small minority. Surely, when the taxpayer is footing such a huge bill, it is not too much to ask management, staff and unions to provide a more reliable service and to recognise the vast number of people hurt by stoppages, particularly at Christmastime. I hope that this Christmas reason and sanity will prevail to prevent that situation developing again. The vast majority of stoppages within CIE, especially in the Dublin area, have occurred on numerous occasions around Christmas time. I hope that if there is any inclination that there may be stoppages of any kind the Minister will use his offices, naturally with the support of management and involvement with the trade unions, to ensure that this type of situation does not develop at this time this year.
This side of the House welcome this Bill because we realise that public transport has an important economic and social content. We support the Minister in his efforts and are anxious to continue the process of improving and streamlining our national transport service. All sides of the House are fully conscious that a good, efficient, national transport system is essential. It can be said in relation to other countries as well as Ireland that the provision of such a system is not a good financial propsition. The money the Exchequer have had to make available to finance CIE over the years has increased significantly year by year. During the last ten years politicans on all sides of the House have been very conscious of the fact that something needs to be done to curtail the Exchequer involvement in the financing of CIE.
This is not an easy task. We are all conscious of the fact that any Minister for Transport will find this a very difficult thing to do. If such a Minister gets a total commitment and dedication at management level within CIE and if the trade unions involved within the workforce of CIE, together with the management and the Minister really got to work on this and eventually got to the stage where all of them became truly conscious of the fact that the taxpayers are finding it very difficult to have a streamlined service maintained on the basis that the deficit has been increasing so significantly for a long period, I believe some improvement could take place. It is the national duty of all people concerned to try to improve the situation.
The Minister said that a capital committee has been established to ensure that all future proposals for major capital investment will be properly financially appraised before decisions are taken. That highlights the points I have been making. If this capital committee are to tackle all future proposals for major capital investment I hope that the personnel on that committee are people who have a business and a commercial type attitude towards solving the problems which CIE have. Major capital investment within CIE has been rising year by year so I welcome the fact that the Minister has appointed this committee. If this committee have personnel who can do something about reducing the money the Exchequer and the taxpayers have had to provide to allow CIE to work efficiently than they will have done a good day's work.
I will be very brief, as I usually am in respect of debates of this nature. Nevertheless I am glad of the opportunity to make a small contribution on this important Bill. The significant increase on a yearly basis in the CIE deficit, which generally has to be financed out of the taxpayers' money, has been in the minds of everybody for a great number of years. For the first time in 1983 a small reduction was achieved but that is insignificant when one realises what it might be if proper management and control over the administration of CIE had been achieved over the last fifteen years.
important for any public transport system to provide that type of service, but in doing so they must be equally conscious of the cost to the taxpayer of doing that. While we all welcome a good public transport service when we see empty buses travelling long distances throughout the country and, to a lesser extent, trains we have got to ask ourselves if there is something wrong when CIE have been unable to attract passengers and why in fact they have been consistently losing the passenger market.
The cost of fares is obviously one contributory factor. I will not dwell very long on this aspect of the matter but I will develop it in the context of the railway service. The McKinsey report made a number of recommendations. I do not wish to go into the details of those but we should either hold on to a number of services, get rid of them, increase or reduce the service. All of those will cost us money in the long term. A railway system is part and parcel of a transport system. The road network has resulted in newer forms of transport at cheaper cost. Facility of movement is very important, and all these things have been taken into account in costing and unfortunately in that process the railway system has lost out somewhat. We should not, however, run down the system totally. We should indeed try to maintain the system and ensure that it pays for itself.
The most important intake point in the south east is Rosslare. It has grown significantly over the years, but there is actually a move on foot to close down the railway network between Rosslare and the south west. That option should only be considered when all other options have failed. A tremendous potential for development exists from the point of view of tourist traffic. That traffic is very significant in that area. Surely these tourists could be induced to use the railway network in the south-east and the southwest. The area is a must for most tourists visiting the country.
CIE have advanced a number of reasons for closing down this network. Railway stock has been allowed to deteriorate with the result that a significant capital investment is now necessary to bring it back to the standard required. The line from Wexford to Thurles and on to Killarney is a most important network. The Ceann Comhairle is aware of its significance. It is most valuable in the transport of sugar beet. If that traffic is put on to the road network the investment necessary in the roads to carry the extra volume of traffic would be far in excess of the cost of improving the railway stock. I emphasise that point.
The Minister suggested that he would endeavour to eliminate political interference. As elected representatives we are the only channel ordinary people have when they want to make representations to the Minister. After all, his is the responsibility to ensure a proper level of service in the interests of the economy. His is the responsibility to provide a good transport service in the interests of the people at a lower cost to the user and particularly to the farmer.
I am convinced that if CIE engaged in promoting cheaper fares instead of increasing fares a far greater number of people would be attracted to the railways. Concomitant with that they should provide a better service. The cost at the moment is out of all proportion to the level of service provided. Consider the cost of a meal. Breakfast on average can cost anything up to £5 or £6. People travelling from Waterford to Dublin, Sligo to Dublin, Killarney to Dublin cannot afford that sort of money in addition to the rail fare. Surely a cheaper service could be provided. Surely the service could be made more attractive. If that were done I am convinced the railways would in time break even.
The railways should not be allowed to die. They are an important service from the point of view of social need. The Minister said the Bray-Howth line will cost £20 million. I regard that service as absolutely essential. That is the type of service one finds in every major city. Electrically operated transport is most efficient and I am convinced that savings could be made. The capital city is entitled to that service.
The workers in CIE have been criticised because of poor industrial relations. Good relations do not apply to the workers alone. They also apply to management. Compliments have been paid to the out-going chairman. He achieved a significant amount in the years in which he was with the company, but nonetheless consideration must be given to ways and means of improving administration. Perhaps significantly more people could be employed if the level of overtime were looked at. There is too the possibility that the worker has not been in a position to give the level of input he should.
Reference has been made to absenteeism. Absenteeism occurs in both the private and the public sector. The fact is the taxpayer cannot continue financing CIE to the extent it has in return for the level of service. For that subvention a proper level of service consistent with the financial input from the taxpayer must be demanded.
There has been agitation in regard to school transport. CIE get two-thirds of the subvention on school transport. CIE transport one-third of the taxpayers. I believe school transport could be made much cheaper. I do not suggest that it should be removed from CIE, because CIE have all the equipment and they can do a reasonably good job.
I wish the Minister well in the extremely difficult job he has undertaken. With regard to the McKinsey report there has been real opposition by the workers in CIE to some of the proposals put forward for the future development of the company. However, I believe there is a lot of merit in establishing separate transport authorities for the different cities and operating the rail service as a separate entity. It is possible that such proposals will not be successful, but after a trial period we could measure the level of input necessary to provide the social service that our people want.
I should like to congratulate the new executive chairman of CIE, Mr. Conlon. He has been very successful in his former post and I have no doubt that his expertise and experience would be of a great advantage in CIE. In the last year the Minister of State has worked hard to secure better relationships within the company and he should be congratulated on his commitment to initiate changes which will lead to a better, more efficient and less costly service.
It is not my intention to delay the passage of this legislation but I am anxious to voice my objection to the suggestion in the McKinsey report that the Sligo-Dublin railway line be closed down. CIE are giving an excellent service to Sligo, the north west and towns on the route such as Mullingar, Longford, Carrick-on-Shannon, Boyle, Ballymote and Collooney. It would be madness to deprive those rural areas of that excellent service. It must be remembered that there are many people who do not have cars and the only way they have of travelling to Dublin is by rail. Instead of suggesting that the line be closed down efforts should be made to attract more people to use the rail service. One way of doing that would be to reduce the return fare from the north west. On Saturday last I travelled from Sligo to Dublin for the Presidential inauguration and the return fare was £8. The train was twice as long as normal and it was not surprising that it was almost full when leaving Ballymote although it had only taken up passengers at Sligo and Ballymote.
All the passengers must have been going to the inauguration.
That proved to me that if the fares were cheaper more people would use the service. I am sure the Minister is aware that many private buses leave Dublin on Friday evenings and, for a fare of about £8, they transport people to Sligo and many other remote towns. I have no doubt that those people would not use that service if the return fare to Sligo was about £10. Most of the people who use those buses are civil servants working in Dublin.
I should like to tell the Deputy that the McKinsey report did not suggest that the line between Sligo and Dublin should be closed down.
I was given to understand that a proposal to that effect was contained in the McKinsey report.
I can tell the Deputy authoritatively that such a proposal was not in the McKinsey report. Of course, the Deputy can always represent to his constituents that it was proposed and then say he succeeded in having it changed.
I am delighted to hear that news from the Minister. I have not received a copy of the report and I should be obliged if the Minister would supply me with one. I can recall reading in the newspapers that there was a suggestion to close down that line. If it happened it would represent a shocking decision from a social point of view for the north west. The only train link we had with the south of Ireland was the Sligo-Claremorris line which was closed down about eight years ago and I understand that in the next couple of years it is proposed to take up the line. In that regard I hope Fr. McGrail and his committee, are successful in their efforts to retain the line. People in that area hope that the line will be put back into operation at some future date. As the Minister is aware the road network from the north west to the south is not good although we were promised when the line was closed that it would be improved.
Some years ago CIE promised to introduce a super train on the Dublin-Sligo rail route, like other main rail lines, but that has not happened. I hope the Minister, and his Department, will see to it that a better train is put into operation on that line. The last speaker mentioned the cost of meals on trains. It may be that they are a little dear but I have always found them very tasty. I have often had breakfast and an evening meal on this Sligo train. If the cost of bacon, egg and sausage which is in the region of £6 was reduced by £1 it would represent very good value.
It would be cheaper for passengers to bring their own stoves. That represents the dearest bacon, egg and sausage in Ireland or perhaps in the whole western world.
I am sure the Deputy is aware that a continental breakfast in a hotel consists of two slices of toast and a cup of tea. It is cheaper to have toast and a cup of tea on a train than it is to have a continental breakfast in a hotel in Dublin. I know that from experience.
I sympathise with what the Deputy says about the position in the west but I do not think he is doing a public service by praising the restaurant service in CIE which everybody else is criticising.
I did not praise it but pointed out that it was £1 too expensive.
Deputy Kelly is not on the menu and he should allow Deputy Brennan to continue.
CIE are doing an excellent job and I hope they will continue to do so. But I am not happy and I speak as somebody who uses their trains. I am not happy with the train to the west because the service just is not good enough. There is a super train to every other city in Ireland and a faster one than we have in Sligo.
The west is not doing too badly.
I hope we shall soon have that super train. There are massive amounts of money being spent in Dublin on electrification of the railway line between Howth and Bray — to places like Dalkey, Killiney where all the wealthy people of the country live. But they are forgetting about the west. It is time we in the west realised we are being forgotten. We deserve a better train service than we have at present.
The Claremorris line was not supported by the people when it was there.
I supported it. Well, they are supporting the line to Dublin at all times, are they not?
I admit that is a different case.
We shall have to have a more modern train service to the west, especially now that we have a modern airport in Sligo. The return air fare between Dublin and Sligo at present I believe is approximately £55 to £60, whereas the return train fare with CIE — if one wants to conduct business in Dublin — for a two-day return amounts to £24.50. Cheaper, more competitive fares will have to be brought in if the railways are to remain in existence or otherwise air transport will take over from rail.
I should like to take this opportunity of wishing CIE's new chairman well and hope he will not be long in office before we have a super train to Sligo.
I shall be brief and will not go into the subject of menus on trains. Though it may have taken 15 years to come about, I am happy that CIE have reduced their deficit. Very few concerns throughout Europe in 1982 have been in the happy position of having reduced their deficits, even if only to the tune of £5 million. This indicates to me that the situation in CIE is under control and that the savings and increased productivity effected over the past seven years have shown results.
Both CIE and their workers must be admired for the stand they took seven years ago when they commenced to curtail their staff numbers. They have succeeded in reducing that number from 20,000 to approximately 15,500 at present. Both are to be congratulated on the way they co-operated in that policy. The Minister should realise the full extent of the worker's contribution in this respect.
The present Minister is about the sixth Minister for Transport in some seven years. He can make a valuable contribution to the community if he perseveres with CIE in assisting the company to resolve their problems. They have had many problems over the years about which many jokes have been made. Neverthless theirs is a valuable service to the community. It is also true to say that CIE suffered in recent years through the lack of a transport policy on the part of all Governments and when subvention shortfalls have been most noticeable. All Governments and the public have been and are critical of the size of the subvention to CIE. I believe CIE should be told exactly where they stand, whether the operation should be run on a semi-State or commercial basis. Governments like to provide a social service because there will be political repercussions for them. On the other hand, come the end of the year, the Government, the public at large, we public representatives all talk in terms of profit and loss.
There has been much criticism voiced by Deputies who have contributed to the debate so far of the lack of late services in cities, and everybody is conscious of the reason that these services have been withdrawn. It must be remembered that many bus conductors have been beaten up at night. Very few people will render themselves susceptible to that kind of torture. I have the utmost sympathy with such conductors who were expected not alone to perform their ordinary duties but also to be bouncers, to deal with gangs, mobs of the worst description. Such behaviour has been responsible for the withdrawal of those late evening services.
Already the railways receive a lot of money from the State but not sufficient to cover all their relevant costs. They must be fully compensated financially for the social aspect involved in their operations. It must be remembered also that social and economic conditions throughout Europe have changed fundamentally in recent years. Economies generally and transport systems in particular have been suffering from the pressures of inflation worldwide. Increased oil prices have driven costs skywards, placing companies like CIE in difficulties straightaway. It must be remebered also that the choices of such transport companies are very limited.
Our people are becoming more mobile as one can see from the bigger numbers of cars and lorries on our roads every year. That makes the competitive position of CIE still more difficult and that is the main cause of their worries. People have suggested reductions in fares as a possible method of attracting business to CIE. I do not think it is a bad idea. At the moment one can see trains and buses empty at times. Perhaps a reduction in fares would coax more people to travel by CIE.
I have had many years of experience with the transport company and I appreciate how vulnerable they are because they are a national transport service. They must provide that service whether they make money or lose it. On the other hand, private companies can be selective and can reject loss-making activities. CIE cannot do that and when we are making statements about the company we should appreciate that. We must remember that CIE employ 15,500 workers. If someone from Japan, America or Britain became interested in starting a small industry here employing 300 people one can imagine the welcome there would be for him at Shannon Airport. But CIE employ nearly 16,000 people and we can multiply that by five if we take into account their wives and families. That will tell us the contribution CIE make to the community.
Sometimes people say that CIE should be done away with, but at certain times of the year even middle class people with their own transport will seek the shelter of CIE stations and bus stops to travel by bus or train. They have the added benefit of having train and bus staffs driving for them. Then when the fine day comes they desert CIE to take out their own cars and begin to complain again about CIE.
We must have confidence in the State transport company. In the past 20 years I have been listening to rumours and hearing in the media that CIE were being closed down. This is no incentive to CIE workers to give of their best. They have considered themselves to be employed on a day-to-day basis. I congratulate the Minister, therefore, for this Bill which will renew staff confidence. They can now look forward to many years of permanent employment and to well earned retirement when they come of age. The precarious position of CIE in the past couple of decades left the workers without confidence.
CIE are the most maligned company here. All the talk is about the subsidies from the Exchequer. Earlier today a Deputy spoke about school and I would add to that the fact that through operating the school transport service CIE are contributing to the education of our youth. That service in particular shows the dedication of CIE crews who work long hours, sometimes at night.
There has been reference to absenteeism in the company, particularly on Mondays and Tuesdays. As a transport worker for many years I did not have that experience. Of course, if a man has worked until 12.30 in the early hours of the morning he can be excused if occasionally he does not turn in for work at 9 a.m. later that day. It is completely different for clerical workers who can leave at 5 p.m. and return at 9 a.m. the following day, without the same demands on their energy. It is because of that that I would excuse occasional absenteeism in certain grades.
Industrial problems in the company were referred to, particularly around Christmas. Approaching the holiday season I make a special appeal to unions and management to try to avoid industrial unrest. Bus and train stoppages cause untold worry to the travelling public, especially at holiday time. If a person arrives in Limerick, Clare or Cork to try to get to Kilkee or to Kerry and finds that there is no transport because of an industrial dispute, he has to dip into his holiday savings to hire a car.
Therefore, I ask the Minister to join me in an appeal to management and unions to try to resolve their difficulties. We have a wonderful slogan, "Be Irish, Buy Irish". This year I would add a slogan for 1984 for our people: "Use your own transport company, maintain the employment of 15,500 people and at the same time help to reduce Exchequer subsidies to CIE which can be used to create employment in other fields".
The Minister was correct when he praised the excellent staff of CIE and the services they are providing. However, I would remind him that after 40 years of service they will walk out with the miserable pension of £1,680. I sincerely hope the Minister will try to have that pension increased. I thank him for what he is doing for the company and I wish him many years of success in his office.
I did not intend saying anything about CIE but since I came in a short time ago it has been almost the sole subject of debate. As somebody who uses the Dublin city service a great deal, I have a high regard for the CIE staff I meet virtually every day. Naturally, the public become exasperated when they find a service closing down for what might seem to them an inadequate industrial reason, and they are put to severe inconvenience, sometimes for months on end when a very serious strike breaks out. But the occupation of bus driver or conductor seems to me to be one of the hardest there is. I do not have a wide experience of different forms of activity, but it always seems to me that with along with teachers — and I do not mean people in the relatively privileged position of university teachers, I am speaking about school teachers — who have a very hard life, they come near the top of hardship in the sense of permanently stress-filled and not particularly agreeable employment. I feel sorry for them because they do what I would find an intolerable job, and they do it almost always with courtesy, efficiency and cheerfulness. I have met exceptions, and it is easy to write to the papers or complain to management about exceptional cases, but it must be remembered that they are exceptional cases. For the most part I could only praise the CIE bus crews with whom I come in contact every day.
The management end of the Dublin city services have always treated any representations I have made as a Deputy with great courtesy and promptness, and I am sure the same could be said by any other Dublin Deputy who had occasion to write to them. It is very easy to criticise the company and although it has defects in its structure of a kind which will be found in any State body, particularly one which has been insulated from competition in so many ways, the morale of the people working in CIE seems to be very high considering the difficulties which are inherent in the job of operating a bus service, especially when the rolling stock is substandard. I do not know if the new green double-decker buses have been there long enough to allow a judgment to be formed about them, but it is a depressing sight to see the orange buses which have not been in operation very long, broken down at the side of the road stationary with their hazard lights flashing, or if they do not have hazard lights with a couple of seats placed on the roadway in an inverted V by way of a hazard sign, almost as often as they are in service. That is exasperating for a public who feel that public money is being thrown away to subsidise a system which is not able to ensure that they buy suitable rolling stock, but it must be doubly exasperating for the unfortunate crews who have to work that plant. I think that much ought to be said in between the complaints about the service which the national transport service provide.
My real reason for speaking this morning is to make a suggestion to the Minister, which I made in a disorderly way in this House about two weeks ago and about which I do not want to have to put down a Special Notice Question since I am unlucky with questions because I am not allowed to ramble all around the county as other Deputies are. Therefore, it is better for me to seize this opportunity than to try to intrude on Question Time. I would like the Minister to get someone in his Department to inquire whether there might be a future for a privately-operated service in supplement to the electrified rail service which is now being provided around the bay, on the stretches which CIE have already envisaged as possible extensions of their rail networks. It is hard to call it a network because a network implies a certain degree of intersection, unless it is a very defective net, and there is virtually no intersection on the CIE system, which is so vestigial that it can operate radially; and there is scarcely anything else to be said about it because it is not really a network in any serious sense of the word.
It has been suggested by CIE that their existing vestigial "network" might be supplemented by a service in the west of the city in the direction of Tallaght, which is not far off the size of Cork, and possibly even a spur to the airport serving simultaneously the very heavily populated areas west of the airport. It is a very long time since CIE first thought this scheme up and got a natty graphic artist to make a graphic presentation of their impressions of what it would look like. I distinctly remember seeing a display in Westland Row seven or eight years ago showing what a suburban station somewhere in the Tallaght complex would look like, and what Dublin grand central junction would look like. Even then the display was so old that the fashion worn by the women sketched in the plaza of this grand central station consisted of pillbox hats and mandarin collars such as were worn when I was a student. There was a very antiquated look about the whole scene. It looked like a setting on to which Doris Day and Cary Grant would step at any moment to add some dimension to their comedy plot.
CIE thought this idea up but financial constraints have prevented this scheme from getting past the planning stage. I think I heard the Minister say he was not certain if there would be a rail link to Tallaght or whether it might be better to have a busway or simply an improved road system with an improvement in the existing bus system, and I do not think I heard him speak about the airport spur.
I would like the Minister to free himself from the preconception that any extension of the Dublin railway service must necessarily be under the aegis of CIE. I do not think it is offensive, anti-national, conservative, monetarist, Thatcherite or any of the other terms of abuse which are flung across this House, to suggest modestly that, if the State is in financial constraints which prohibit it from introducing new rail links, whether electrified or conventional, to areas of the Dublin complex which have not yet been served by rail, the private sector should be sounded to see if a consortium could be got together which would regard it as a reasonable investment. Of course, there would have to be minimal co-operation, because you could not have a private railway to Tallaght operating on a different gauge from the rest of the system. I mention that as the most primitive and obvious of points. It is a system which would have to knit technically and managerially into the rest of the railway system.
The financial dimensions of the operations, in other words the huge capital investment implicit in building even a cul-de-sac line, even a line uncomplicated by intersections and the consequent signalling problems, even a simple cul-de-sac double track covering the six or seven miles to Tallaght in one direction and a spur perhaps three miles long to the airport from the Drumcondra side from the other direction, would be considerable. It is not impossible that in some conditions and under some deals that might be an attractive proposition for private industry. If it were it would offer enormous employment opportunities to a whole range of people from ordinary building operatives up to engineers, traffic consultants and so forth.
It may be that there is a file on this in the Minister's Department. I cannot expect him to do it off the top of his head here this morning, but I should like him to have a look at the file again and perhaps tell the Dáil about it. The transport system between Dublin and Tallaght is disastrously bad. It is the subject of continual complaints here and elsewhere. I heard Deputy Taylor talking about it a few weeks ago and I think it was on that occasion that I made the suggestion first.
It is acknowledged to be very bad, and it is obvious that if there was a double track properly operating a rail link in place it would make a huge difference to the somewhat amenity starved population out there, among whom I worked for some years when it looked as if I might stand in the constituency which includes Tallaght, until the armchair Napoleons in charge of my party's strategy in 1977 decided that I would do better at three weeks' notice to be put into a constituency in which I had no contact.
I know from the years 1973 to 1977 quite a bit about the Tallaght scene. Perhaps it has changed a great deal in the past six years. I endorse everything Deputy Taylor says about it. It is an obvious target for any extension which might be thought of for the Dublin railway network. Perhaps not to the same extent or with the same urgency the same goes for an airport spur, if a spur to the airport from the northern line were to continue westwards and curl around in a half loop to serve the very heavily populated areas with which I am not at all familiar but which is also the source of complaints about over choked roads and a poor and inadequate bus service.
The Minister should see whether the same kind of consideration, the same kind of deal, which appears to interest the private sector when it comes to building a new Liffey bridge and perhaps applying a toll to it could be got on its feet in order to relieve the poor old staggering State which is being pulled down from all sides by the burden of demands made on it by everybody, unjustified ones as well as justified ones. We should see whether the poor old staggering State could be spared this further burden and whether we could be spared the possibility that some party at election time — let it be my party even — might in a moment of electoral panic, because they saw the chance of one measly seat changing hands, make a promise from which they would spend the next 20 years trying to unhook themselves. Let us try to avoid that danger, for which in the end the public always pay, and pay dearly, in money as well as in disillusionment. We should consider whether this long standing chestnut proposal about a rail link to the west and another spur to the north of the city could be hived off to the private sector. No offence is intended to CIE, no insult, no downgrading, nothing like that at all. It is simply a question of trying to reduce, as the State must, the burden of the obligations which are being thrust on it eagerly by all sides and at election times eagerly accepted by politicians.
I should like to comment briefly on this Bill. Prior to 1973 I had given 27 years service in CIE. I am very well aware of the fact that CIE share top rating with TDs in the league of brick bats and criticisms on a national basis. I welcome the new Minister's attitude. I compliment him. The Bill is revolutionary and refreshing. His attitude has been welcomed by management and workers in CIE. When I was in CIE no direction was given by any Government. We had a total workforce of approximately 20,000. Following discussions between trade union groups and management, workers and management appreciated that there was a need for rationalisation programmes to ensure that CIE would survive and continue to operate as a very valuable infrastructure.
At one time if there was a subvention of £3 million in the budget for CIE there was a public outcry. Today we are talking in terms of approximately £100 million. Inflation has created a serious problem for CIE. In addition to the inflationary trend, in the intervening years there was a tremendous challenge from the motorcar industry. Many areas have been deprived of railway lines, and despite all the promises of additional money to ensure the provision of a proper road network the roads have been neglected and are now much worse than they were 20 years ago.
As an ex-railway man I believe we will always need railways. Irrespective of the recession or when the upturn comes in the economy, irrespective of the modern methods of transport, articulated units, airports, and so on, the Government must ensure that the rail network is allowed to continue in operation. This is a very important investment in the future. I hope we have seen the end of statements about railway line closures. Deputy Donnellan referred to the spur from Wexford across to Limerick Junction and down into Cork and Limerick. The future of the railways cannot be considered in isolation. It is a very important infrastructure. Any attempt by anybody to interfere with that very important spur from Wexford to Limerick Junction will have very serious repercussions on the beet and sugar industry and in particular on the beet factory in Thurles. I need not refer again to the importance of that rail link to a very viable industry in my constituency, employing 500 people and up to 800 people at peak times. The viability of a railway line cannot be considered only in the light of the traffic it carries. It is a vital link in providing an infrastructure for industry for the economic development of the area and the social means of the area.
This Bill is refreshing. There are new ideas in it. The Minister has placed greater emphasis on consultation between workers and management, between Ministers and management and between the Minister and the trade unions. As a member of a CIE trade union I am well aware of the many criticisms over the years of the fact that there are too many unions involved in CIE. That might well be, and it is a matter which could be discussed by the many trade union groups within CIE.
There was a time when decisions in CIE were taken affecting workers and their families following only minimal discussions between management and workers. That was not good enough. I can see from the attitude of the Minister that it is his intention that there should be continuous internal discussion regarding such decisions.
It is unfortunate that at peak times such as Christmas and Easter something always seems to happen which creates havoc in the transport system. I support the appeal by Deputy Cowen that an early warning system should be established within the Department and given top priority. Sudden shut-downs and unofficial strikes are giving a bad name to CIE workers, but at times these events have occurred due to lack of consultation. I can vouch for that, because I witnessed this type of thing while employed by CIE.
During the past 15 or 20 years I have seen a gradual erosion of the more vital aspects of CIE traffic. This has been due to the policy of successive Governments of allowing the management of CIE to make decisions which have had a detrimental effect on the receipts and on services provided. I remember what the livestock trade was worth 20 years ago. It held fourth place in railway traffic receipts. It is now finished and no livestock is carried. There was a challenge from road vehicles but CIE threw in the towel too soon and relinquished their hold on the livestock trade. Instead of meeting the challenge of road traffic, CIE increased the wagon rates, sounding the death knell of this very important aspect of their trade. Goods freight is slowly but surely declining and in many areas passenger traffic represents the only source of revenue.
A matter which requires urgent attention is the initiation of a carriage building scheme. For many years trains have been travelling to Dublin with coaches and vans which would remind one of the old West Clare Railway 40 or 50 years ago. These coaches are out of date and inadequate, unsuitable for use on the railway and a danger to the travelling public. The Minister will know what I am talking about. First-class coaches must be provided in order to improve the viability of CIE, in the best interests of the country, the taxpayers and the future employment prospects of the workers.
I whole-heartedly agree with Deputy Mattie Brennan regarding the fare structure. It is ludicrous that every weekend thousands of young boys and girls leave Dublin for rural Ireland in buses, while trains are leaving the city with empty coaches. This is due to the ridiculous level of train fares. During the summer months CIE introduced on a trial basis a reduced rate of fare on the branch line to Dublin. There was a weekend ticket and also a day ticket. The train left my town of Nenagh and was full before it reached Ballybrophy. I am not an economics expert, but it must be better to have full trains arriving in Dublin rather than empty coaches.
If this problem is properly tackled by the Minister and the management of CIE we will get back to the position where trains are very relevant in rural Ireland and the railways will be seen as a viable sector of CIE. I resent comments denigrating the railways. I believe the railways are contributing to the economy of different parts of the country in a manner which is overlooked by the centralised authority. They provide conveyance for industry and a social service for outlying areas where there is no other means of transport. There are parts of my constituency where people cannot even get a bus. The taxpayers are facing a large bill and they are entitled to a fair deal from CIE.
I welcome the recent decision regarding the CIE hotels which have given such a tremendous service to the tourist industry over the years. There were fears that these hotels would be closed down, although they represent the highest rated sector of the tourist industry. If the individual managers of these hotels were given more responsibility, the hotels could become more viable. I know they have been dragged down by one particular hotel which has been under siege for many years and has cost the taxpayer millions of pounds.
The matter of CIE pensioners has been raised here on many occasions. I have great respect and regard for pensioners who have given 40 years' service to the State for very little reward, and the least to which they are entitled is better consideration and remuneration for their remaining years.
It is only proper to pay tribute to all the unions. I trust that my few words will be taken as advice rather than as a threat. A reduction in the number of unions within CIE might be discussed, and an effort must be made to ensure that the needs of the worker, the taxpayer and the users of the CIE services are met.
On behalf of the CIE workers and the public generally, I compliment Mr. Liam St. John Devlin, whom I have met on many occasions. He has given ten years service to our community. I wish the new managing director, Mr. Conlon, well in his task and urge him to ensure that what has happened in the past is forgotten and that a new start is made, with a view to having continuous consultation between all those involved in the running of CIE. It is probably one of the largest semi-State bodies, employing 15,500 people and they deserve to be consulted. There are members among the workers who could contribute to discussions with the Minister and management on various aspects of their work, in an effort to improve the standard of service to the public. I am concerned that jobs will continue to be available in CIE but, above all, even the workers will admit that what we want from CIE is a first class service for the public which if available, will be used to the maximum by the public and that the taxpayers who are contributing so much are given the service that they richly deserve.
I shall be very brief. I shall start where the last speaker finished and emphasise that when one provides an efficient service on a regular basis the public will support it. It is very important that this factor be recognised.
The Minister stated, concerning the Howth-Bray line, that during peak operation periods there would be a train at five minute intervals and at off peak times at fifteen minute intervals. That is the kind of service which people should expect and if they receive it they will support it.
Reference has already been made to the minimum fare structure. CIE should examine this, particularly with reference to off-peak travelling. Many families with perhaps two or three schoolgoing children find it more economical to use the family car rather than pay the high bus fares.
I would like to pay tribute to the CIE bus drivers and conductors, who are usually on the receiving end of much abuse because of the frequent strikes which have occurred over the years and with which they are very seldom in agreement. We must realise the anti-social hours which these people work on the various shift systems which operate within CIE. Many must get up at 4 or 5 a.m. in the winter to report for work. Changing from early shift to late shift also presents problems and they have no really regular life. It is a very onerous and tough job which I certainly would not like. It calls for a particularly good person with patience and forebearance to be able to withstand these changes in working hours, week in week out, year in year out. I pay tribute to CIE for their welfare facilities, which I am told by members of the staff are excellent. Most of the CIE employees are satisfied that the company do look after them very well.
Very few Members of this House have found, on being approached by CIE employees who have been dismissed, that the company had not a legitimate reason for the dismissal. Usually when these people come to Members of the House it is after the appeal stage and perhaps before it goes to what is called the "mercy" appeal. CIE have always exercised tremendous patience and give everyone a very good chance.
In the last couple of years I have come to know a lot more about the inner workings of CIE, as far as the men on the ground are concerned, having met many of them. The general feeling from meeting them is that conditions in CIE are very good. It is good to have an opportunity to tell them that they are doing a very good job. The members of the public should appreciate the irregularity of hours and shiftwork involved for a CIE worker.
The capital input to a transport company is extremely important. Whether it comes from the private or the public sector is another debate altogether. If the private sector could be encouraged to invest in public transport, I would be all for it. Privatisation is a popular word and I am a great believer in it, if one can get the capital.
A rapid rail system for Tallaght is absolutely necessary and must be provided sooner or later. We are thinking now of the year 2,020. The Minister was always very enthusiastic about such a system, even before his entry into this House, when he was a member of the corporation. He will have input into his own committees and I hope that he will endorse the views which he had at that time. A rapid rail system is very essential for the development of our future transport system. I am not looking only five or ten years ahead, but 20 to 30 years ahead. Unless we make our plans now and develop the necessary infrastructure, it will be too late. I believe that the plans are ready and that it is a matter of getting the money to implement them.
In the planning of new estates and urban and suburban renewal, one must bear in mind that there must be room for improvement in the rapid rail system. If an efficient system is there the people will use it. I have no doubt that the Howth-Bray line will generate much more traffic.
During the summer, I took my family to Bray for the day by train from Connolly station. The condition of some of the carriages left a lot to be desired. They were not dirty, they were clean, but the hard small seats were such as one would normally find in a small hall. It had been a long time since I had travelled by train and I was saddened by the deterioration in the standards. Years ago, comfortable seating was provided. It is no wonder that many commuters are reluctant to travel by train in what look almost like cattle trucks. It must be very uncomfortable to travel any distance under those conditions. One has to look for comfort. The buses have gone in a lot more for the comfort of passengers.
The condition of the trains underlines the need for new rolling stock, which I understand is shortly coming on steam. I realise that with all the financial difficulties we have had over the last few years we have allowed our rolling stock to deteriorate to such an extent that it took all the skill of the workers in Inchicore to maintain the carriages in the manner they have done. The kind of work they have done on them is a miracle. I would like to stress on the Minister the importance of making sure that the works in Inchicore are kept going at full strength. The Minister knows as well as I do, because Inchicore is the heart of his constituency, that generation after generation of the people in that area have worked in Inchicore and skills have been handed down from father to son. The trainee schemes and apprentice schemes there are a credit to all those responsible. We must make sure that the Inchicore works are kept working at full capacity and that we do not let people with those type of skills go.
The kind of maintenance work which has been carried out on some of the carriages, which have been almost completely rebuilt, is a great credit to the men who trained the apprentices and to the men themselves. The upholstery department do marvellous work. I wish that more Members of this House would take time to visit the Inchicore works and see what is going on. It is a massive area and is an eye opener. It restores one's pride in Irish workmanship. There are very talented people in our midst and we must, as far as possible, try to retain them. If we start importing all the CIE carriages from other countries, even though they may be cheaper because they are being turned out in such vast quantities, eventually we will regret it because we know that there is a serious deterioration throughout the world, particularly in the west. The decline may continue for some years and we may be very glad we did not let all those skills go.
I believe it was Dean Rusk who said that a schoolboy's hindsight is worth more than the greatest statesman's prophecies. I believe the Harcourt Street line is a very good example of being wise after the event. One could not envisage the massive expansion which took place in the sixties. If the Harcourt Street line was still in operation today it would save a lot of traffic on our roads and we would not have the congestion we have at the moment. The bus lanes have proved to be a boon to CIE and to the travelling public. I am a great believer in them and I would like to see them extended to taxis and any form of public transport to encourage people to use this service. I have made representations to the Dublin Transport Task Force to allow, as they do in London, taxis to use the bus lanes. There are not so many taxis that this would obstruct the bus lanes. I am glad to see that the gardaí have got very firm in coming down on private motorists who go into bus lanes. I was told, in reply to a question, that there were a staggering number of prosecutions. I hope the private motorists will not go into the bus lanes. Let us encourage people to use public transport and let us keep the price down to make it economically viable for them to use the service.
Huge sums of money have to be spent building by-passes. It is important, therefore to encourage people to use public transport and to have an efficient rapid rail system. I believe that is the key to the solution of our traffic problems. Dublin will continue to expand and go out further and further until eventually it is like London, which is really a series of towns joined together. Tallaght will eventually join up and be part of greater Dublin. Leixlip and many other places like this will also eventually join up with greater Dublin. I believe the Maynooth line is working quite well now. I have not yet used it to come into town. As the Minister said, if you can have bus services linked up with the various stations, it will give a good service to the people. I believe that if the people are given a good public transport system they will avail of it.
There seem to be fewer cars on the roads nowadays. Perhaps it is because there are so many people unemployed that people cannot afford to use their cars any more or only use them occasionally. The people who, unfortunately, are on long-term unemployment will use the bus service. If it is made economically viable for them I believe they will use the service. I know there is a loss of revenue in relation to excise duty on petrol and oil so it is a sort of catch 22 situation. While the Government lose that revenue we are saving on our importation bill, so people should be encouraged to use the public transport system.
There is another ridiculous situation, which I know the Minister is aware of, as a former employee of a very well known brewery, that is, because of the charges in CIE and the rates for carriage of goods as formulated it paid breweries to have empty barrels brought back and the full ones taken to them by their own transport. I am not blaming the brewery for that but CIE for allowing the carriage of goods to operate in such a way that it made it economically more sensible for the companies to use CIE to carry back the empties. This probably comes under marketing as much as anything else.
I feel very strongly about the suggestion that CIE are to operate buses to Newry. I am against this. I find it difficult to believe that CIE will not change their minds on this. The Government have a certain responsibility to be realistic in the next budget and allow VAT rates and tax generally to be reduced to make it uneconomical for people to go shopping in the North. You cannot blame people for doing this when there is such a vast difference in prices. I often say to people that every time they do not buy goods here some people will lose their jobs. Their answer is that some of the goods they are buying in the North are made down here. They spend money across the Border to the detriment of the economy here and to the detriment of the Exchequer.
Per day I am told £1.5 million is spent by people from the Republic travelling across the Border to buy goods. On one day this week no fewer than 68 buses left from the Republic so that those who were using them could shop in Northern Ireland. Some of those buses came from as far away as Cork. That is wrong, and CIE, a semi-State body, should not enter into competition with them. I believe these people who shop in Northern Ireland and the buses which carry them are in breach of the law. Some of these people are persistent offenders. I am sure CIE has a fairly big file on cross Border traffic. Now two wrongs do not make a right and CIE, a semi-State body, should not transport people across the Border to shop. It is unpatriotic and it should not be tolerated. I am sure the Minister agrees with me in this because at the end of the day revenue is lost to the State and investment is lost to the economy generally. At the same time CIE is getting a big subvention from the Government to keep it in operation.
With regard to CIE pensioners some of the problems are very difficult. I arranged meetings with Deputy Albert Reynolds when he was Minister for Transport in an effort to see if there were some way of improving pensions and bringing them into line with other categories. Steps should be taken to alleviate the position of these pensioners.
I welcome the Bill. I hope public transport will continue to grow and continue to gain public support. Performance will have to measure up, of course, to that support. I should like also to pay tribute to Mr. Liam Devlin and congratulate him on the excellent job he did when he was chairman of the company. I thank him too for the courtesy he accorded me when I went to see him. I wish Mr. Conlon well in his task. As I said, I received the utmost courtesy from Mr. Devlin and the directors on any occasion on which I met them, and I would suggest that Deputies might get in touch with CIE from time to time to discover for themselves the problems that may exist.
I shall not detain the House. A number of books have been published in good time for Christmas so that those who have leisure during the festive season may concentrate on their contents. I recommend to the Minister that he read the statements made here by the late Deputy Seán Lemass, Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce, on 10 May 1944. I remember sitting here when the transport Bill was being discussed. During that discussion the final salute was administered and tributes were paid to the Great Southern and Western Railway which was shortly to become defunct. The Great Southern and Western Railway operated a service for very many years, and I remember Deputy Lemass making a very cogent speech in support of the transfer of the railways from the Great Southern and Western Railway to CIE. Indeed, I remember the first occasion on which the title CIE was used in this House. At the end of the debate there was a division, in which I participated. That division resulted in a general election.
One of the reasons why I spoke so emphatically 40 years ago about the establishment of CIE and the demise of the Great Southern and Western Railway was because I believed, and very sincerely, that we are entitled to an extremely efficient transport service. One of the arguments propounded by Deputy Lemass on that occasion was that he was giving birth to CIE in order to provide the country with a cheap and efficient transport service. I clearly remember the emphasis the Minister put on "a cheap and efficient transport service". And rightly so. He went on to say that the people were entitled to a link up between towns and cities by way of efficient and satisfactory transport.
As well as CIE taking over the Great Southern and Western Railway from May 1944 it also took over responsibility for the Grand Canal. Since I was knee high to a grasshopper I have been hearing nothing but the activities of the Great Southern Railway and, later on, the activities of CIE. I have a great admiration and respect for the men who established a transport system here in the days of the Great Southern Railway. I have the greatest admiration for those who took over from the Great Southern Railway and commenced to sow the seed of what Deputy Lemass then said was a favourable, a cheap and an efficient transport service. However during those days in 1944 there was no prophecy that part of the existing transport service would be completely dismantled.
There were many speeches made in this House in connection with the dismantling of the railways and the closing of branch lines which, in the opinion of the new directorate of CIE, were not paying their way. The result was that branch lines in the south and west were dismantled. The Ferbane-Banagher branch line, the Roscrea branch line, the Portlaoise-Kilkenny branch line, the Kilkenny-Waterford branch line, the Waterford-Tramore branch line, were all rail systems which conveyed people from place to place but, in the opinion of the advisers to CIE, they were running at a loss. Records were made available to prove the services were running at a loss but in many instances there was a complete failure to prove the services were running at a loss.
I remember the late Leslie Luke. He was personnel officer to CIE and he addressed meetings throughout the country in support of the closing down of various sections of CIE railways. On one occasion he spoke in Banagher. I remember, too, the late Deputy William Davin, a man thoroughly experienced where transport was concerned. He was an expert as a result of his long experience at Dun Laoghaire and with the AMS in Westmoreland Street where he obtained the highest rank he could obtain.
I appeal to the Minister now to read carefully and conscientiously, with his marker in his hand, that debate to which I referred. I want him to note the suggestions that were made on the birth of CIE and I want him to compare those suggestions with what has happened.
Times, people and modes of transport have changed, but one thing that has not changed is the entitlement of the public to a transport service. Changes are still taking place, and one change which CIE have under consideration is the building up, extension and expansion of the repair service at Athlone and the new repair service at Thurles.
I want to register an objection about the closing down of Birr CIE depot in my constituency. Birr has already lost its branch service. The people were deprived of the Birr-Roscrea service by CIE and the only service there now is the bus service from Portumna via Birr to Dublin. CIE deprived Birr of its rail services and time has proved whether that would have a detrimental effect on the industrial development and growth of Birr. Over the years the workshop and depot in Birr proved most satisfactory. This is the one section of CIE, their one depot in the midlands working at a profit and it has paid its way. Now, in order to keep Thurles in operation and to justify further spending on Thurles and expansion in Athlone, the work is being taken from Birr. Buses convenient to an area within a stone's throw from Birr known as the Black Bull, Sharavogue, are to be maintained in Thurles.
A case is being made that Birr CIE depot is not paying its way. I challenge that. Some of the most experienced and best employees, inspired by those who worked before them in the Great Southern and Western Railways, are engaged in the depot in Birr. Representations were made to the directors and board of CIE who gave an undertaking not alone verbally but in waiting that there was no question of depriving Birr of this depot. Many of the employees there are well known to me for years. I was in Birr last weekend. I asked what has happened in relation to the CIE depot. I hope that the new man taking charge will at least give consideration to the great tradition in relation to the depot which worked well and efficiently with excellent labour relations, a tradition of good craftsmen dedicated to their work. For some reason, mainly to justify the existence of Thurles depot at very great expense, workers are now being asked to transfer from Birr to Thurles. These people have their homes in Birr. They belong to the town and their children are being educated there. This service is good and there is a need for it. It has been carried out in a satisfactory manner from the days of the Great Southern Railway until now. I ask the Minister to interest himself in this actively. I ask the new head of CIE to familiarise himself with the experience and skill of those engaged in the depot.
Nothing struck me harder in all the years I have represented that constituency than seeing the railway lines being torn up and scrapped and the Birr railway service being discontinued. The service never got the chance to pay from men whose qualifications were to prevent the production of figures proving that branch lines were not paying. The same applies to the Banagher-Tullamore branch line. The branch lines should never have been interfered with.
Economies are being exercised all over the country and State and semi-State bodies are asked to economise. Having failed to learn a lesson from the past, having failed to see how fruitless, useless and wrong it was to dismantle the rail services during the past 35 years, consideration is being given now to the discontinuance of certain other services. The only people to suffer from this will be the public using the services. CIE tell us that figures and evidence can be made available to prove that the people are not using those services at present. Whether they are using them or not, the public are entitled to have a service if they want to use it. The people of the Great Southern and Western Railways were dedicated to providing people with transport. Whatever else we may say about services and where services should be, nothing is more important than people. Those in charge of transport, because of their anxiety to balance books, cut down on numbers of workers and put them into redundancy, close down stations and branch lines, cut off bus services and dispose of parts of the canal services, feel that by doing so their account books will look more favourable each Monday morning. They seem to forget the importance of men and women, boys and girls, people. What is wrong with this country is the fact that so many are forgetting about people, their existence and importance and that people are entitled to a cheap and efficient transport service, as the late Deputy Lemass once said, although such a service did not materialise.
I hope we have reached the end of the discontinuation of rail services. I have always regarded the rail service as most satisfactory, but I am absolutely satisfied that you cannot have bus services and rail services paying if they are running at the same time in competition with each other. Would not common sense tell any expert that if a case is being put forward that our rail service is not paying while a bus service is running at practically the same time to the same areas in competition, both of them cannot pay? Where rail services did not pay it was because of bus services of the same company were in competition with them. Where bus services were not paying it was because a more efficient rail service either in the immediate vicinity or a drive of 15 minutes brought passengers from the bus service to the rail service. I have been listening to this since I was a schoolboy because of family connections with the Great Southern Railways and also with CIE in later years.
The Minister is most enthusiastic about CIE and is aware of the great tradition of the Great Southern Railways and CIE in Inchicore. There has never been a serious effort to take heavy transport off the roads and put it on the railways. Our roads are not capable of carrying the present heavy traffic, and this applies in particular to traffic going through our towns. I have seen huge lorries carrying loads of timber: I was driving behind one of them recently and I noticed the timber was from Sweden. Very large lorries carrying iron joints and concrete products are carried on our roads every day. All of this should be transported by CIE, but that organisation have never got down to the job of providing the country with an efficient goods transport service. It is a common sight to see cars being transported on enormous trucks from the manufacturers and being delivered throughout the country.
If CIE had formulated a plan to transport this type of heavy traffic it would have the additional bonus of giving more employment. The older men of the Great Southern Railways were so dedicated to their work that they were available for a 24-hour service at the goods depots throughout the country. It may be said that nowadays people have their own lorries and their own means of transport, but having regard to present petrol and diesel costs I am sure that if business people could be guaranteed an efficient service they would arrange to have their goods transported by rail. The railways are better equipped to transport heavy concrete, steel, timber and fuel than is our road network. All that is required is the necessary organisation to ensure that products are delivered promptly to their destination.
There is a great future for CIE in the transport of merchandise. If our stations and depots are not capable of dealing with new business of this kind there is nothing to stop CIE from rectifying the matter. They should do everything possible to encourage business people to transport their goods by rail. Many of the heavy trucks on our roads have been involved in serious accidents. If they were moved to the railways our roads would be safer for ordinary traffic. Neither the roads nor our towns were designed for such heavy traffic and it is up to CIE to make sure they can offer an efficient service at attractive rates.
If the heavy traffic on our roads in the past five years continues at the same rate over the next five years, the Minister will be forced to consider the prospect of rail transport. Why not do it in time? Now is the time. Thirty years ago we had debates in this House on this matter and there was mention then of an underground transport system for Dublin city. We have not advanced very far in the meantime. London has its underground, Paris its metro and most large European cities also have underground transport. If we are waiting for times to improve we will never do anything about the matter. If we wait until there is a surplus of money we will never have an underground transport system in Dublin. Within five to seven years I am sure that traffic on Dublin streets will be at a standstill.
It may be asked why a country Deputy is interested in transport in Dublin. I often discussed this matter with the late Mr. J. B. Martin. He was attached to the Dublin tramway company and later he was in charge of bus services. I understand that Mr. Martin died recently, but he had expert knowledge of the working of bus transport in Dublin. Nearly 40 years ago I heard him say that within 25 or 30 years there would be an underground transport system in Dublin, but every year brought its own financial problems. There are frequent meetings in Europe of Ministers who have responsibility for transport. I realise the EEC is not sufficiently solvent at the moment to give money for transport, but we can talk about that later.
It is often said that Dublin city is in a chaotic situation so far as transport is concerned. There is a duty on the part of the European Economic Community to provide the city of Dublin with an underground transport service as is the case with practically every other city in Europe. We all know that such a service will not be provided overnight, it will take years of planning and preparation, but when is a start going to be made? Plans will have to be drawn up and there will be compulsory acquisition of property. Unless a Bill is brought into this House giving the green light to such a project, the city of Dublin will have no future transport system.
At present bus drivers, conductors and inspectors are doing their best to cope with an impossible position. There is also a need for a better school service, because the position is chaotic in that regard. When will CIE or whoever is responsible put plans into operation for the commencement of underground transport for the city of Dublin? If it is not done soon we will be the laughing stock of Europe in the next century. It is all very well for members of CIE to be transported to and from board meetings at Heuston station or to drive there in their own cars, but consideration must be given to ordinary people. They are entitled to an efficient, convenient and cheap transport service. Perhaps someone will say I should leave out the word "cheap" because nothing is cheap at present. Nevertheless, the service must be attractive if people are going to use it.
Hundreds of young people take the train from Portlaoise and Portarlington on Sunday nights back to Dublin and it costs about £6 for an hour's journey. CIE should bring in a special, cheap rate for people going home at weekends because numerous country people are employed in the city, students, apprentices and vast numbers in the civil service. These people would like to go home every weekend but the fare is too expensive. Another factor is that, although they are paying full fares, they often have to stand for the duration of the journey. Why do CIE not put on additional coaches at weekends to cope with the extra traffic? Nobody should have to stand, especially if they have paid full fare.
Recently, there was an excursion from Cork and I am glad that many people availed of the opportunity to visit our city. Many people feel that the city of Dublin belongs to Dublin people but that is not the case. It is the capital of the country and we come with pride to visit it. The trouble is that many of Dublin's problems may be left to Dublin people to solve without a united voice coming from country areas to support them on these issues. We also want to speak for its development, expansion and efficiency.
There should be more people employed to clean rail carriages. When a train reaches its destination, disinfectant should be sprayed, dusting and cleaning should be carried out and where there is lino or carpet covering it should be hoovered. I have frequently travelled on the night service from Paris to Strasbourg and also on the train from Brussels to Strasbourg. I have also travelled from Amsterdam to Brussels, and there is a vast difference in the shining, spotless cleanliness of continental trains compared to ours, which in many cases are drab and dirty. Here many people examine the seats before they sit down, and have to dust them. I am not blaming the cleansing service for this, they are coping as best they can but there is not enough staff. CIE must face up to their responsibilities and employ more people. There are over 200,000 people unemployed so it should not be hard to get them. The workers are available. The expertise is there and the services to which people are entitled must be provided. CIE cannot be expected to give good service to the public unless they have the wherewithal to do so. They have been cheeseparing as in the case of Birr depot. CIE cannot give a good service if they are going to have fewer employees than heretofore. Deputy Briscoe rightly paid tribute to the kindliness and courtesy of CIE employees, bus drivers, conductors, ticket checkers, train drivers, station masters, those connected with the transportation of goods or in the administration of what is left of our canal service. There is a tradition of service associated with CIE as there was in the time of the Great Southern Railways. Nobody knows better than the Ceann Comhairle of the devotion which the old railway men had to their jobs. It was uncanny and unreal. They were a community on their own. Their discussions centred around CIE. They were not interested as to the time they would be able to leave their posts. They were interested only in the provision of a good service. They were dedicated to their company. That sort of dedication is not possible unless there is a tradition for it and that tradition is to be found in CIE because many of those who are employed by the company today are the sons or grandsons of former employees either of CIE or of the GSR. Many of those former employees were comrades of my late father. He devoted his life to CIE and to the GSR. Those people were dedicated to the bus service, to the permanent way service, to the road traffic service and to all other aspects of the company's activities.
Recently I took the opportunity of paying tribute to the staff at Portlaoise railway station, having witnessed the manner in which they look after that station. It is spotless and to brighten it up the staff have been able to place flowers there, even at this time of year. Some stations are very dull and drab. We have an efficient and courteous staff but we must be prepared to spend more money in this area. If the money is not available we should borrow it and leave the next generation to pay some of it back. We are entitled to the service.
We must take whatever steps are necessary to ensure a proper standard of service and to ensure that money is expended on the up-keep of our railway bridges, especially the beautiful stone bridges which are unique to Ireland. Some of these bridges are in the heart of the countryside. I hope that the permanent way section will ensure that all these bridges are maintained and are pointed frequently. By that I mean that the concrete between the stones is replaced. The type of stonework used in the erection of those bridges will not be found again in Ireland. We must ensure that in 20 or 30 years time these bridges will not have to be removed because of neglect and replaced with large slabs of grey concrete. We are talking of structures that are a work of art and which should be preserved as such. We need a special section in CIE to look after those bridges. We are talking of a part of our heritage, something which has come down to us from the GSR and which CIE should not neglect. The milestones, too, along the various lines should be maintained properly. Neither must we forget those metal bridges across streams and rivers.
The reduction in the numbers employed in the permanent way section is a source of disappointment and sadness to me. We must have a service that we can be proud of, a service that visitors to our shores can speak of with pride on returning home, just as I have spoken about the Brussels-Strasbourg and Brussels-Luxembourg lines that so many people from this country use now. These services impress us but we should ensure that visitors using our services are impressed also. If we are not prepared to spend the moneys required in maintaining proper transport services there will be repetitions of what happened in the case of the Birr-Roscrea branch line from which the steel tracks were removed and sold on the Continent where they are now in use. The same happened in respect of lines in other parts of the country.
Our aim must be to provide a highly efficient transport service, one that will be adequate as we go into the next century but that will not be achieved if we allow the bridges and stations to deteriorate or if we continue to cut back on the numbers of CIE workers. We must keep the unusually dedicated staff we have, whether they be ticket checkers, engine drivers or any other category of workers.
Reference has been made to the retirement conditions of CIE workers. It is only right that we give proper recognition to the service these people give to Irish transport but some of the CIE pensions of which I have been made aware are belittling to the people concerned and to a great tradition. A few minutes ago the Leas-Cheann Comhairle spoke in support of CIE pensioners. I have known workers who have spent up to 40 years in the service of the company during times when pay was small but when there was a very large volume of traffic and whose meagre pensions are taxed. In many cases the older people are just keeping body and soul together. Can we not have a fresh look at the pension scheme with a view to compensating CIE workers properly for the service they have rendered to the country?
It is the duty of whichever Government are in power to ensure that these workers are enabled to live out their days in a way that is just, in a way that allows them a sense of independence and which compensates them for the great contribution they have made to the cause of public transport. There is much more I could say about CIE pensions because I know so many people who have worked with the company down the years. Those people gave dedicated service to CIE. Many pensioners return often to the railway stations where they worked reminiscing about the years when they were in the employment of the Great Southern Railways Company and in the early years in CIE after it was established on 10 May 1944. We should not forget such people. Those who have given the best service to the country were connected with our transport systems and that is why I am appealing for greater consideration for those pensioners. It is wrong that those who retired after many years service with the GSR got paltry pensions. They got little recognition for generous, noble and great service to the company.
The person responsible for planting flowers at Portlaoise railway station deserves credit. Our railway stations need to be cleaned and repainted. I am not happy with the waiting accommodation available at many stations or the shelters provided by CIE for those waiting for buses. Why should people in our big towns have to stand in gateways while waiting for buses? Local authorities tell us they do not have any right to erect such shelters and the Minister should tell us who is responsible for this work. My view is that it is the responsibility of CIE and the work should be carried out in conjunction with local authorities. I accept that shelters cannot be provided immediately in every area but something should be done to ensure that people waiting for buses are sheltered from the snow or rain. Many people must start work in wet clothes and shoes because of the lack of proper shelters. Is it important that CIE look after the comfort of passengers? The number of staff operating on the permanent way should be increased and CIE should ensure that some of the beautiful stone buildings are retained and not interfered with or replaced by grey concrete blocks.
I do not know what the role of CIE is in regard to school transport but the company are providing the best possible service bearing in mind the crazy conditions laid down by the Department of Education. It is wrong that school children should have to hang around for more than one hour after school waiting for a bus. Many of those children are away from home after dark because the buses must collect pupils from other schools. The children are suffering while the Department of Education, or CIE, are endeavouring to economise. CIE, because they have to implement crazy regulations laid down by the Department of Education, are blamed for the inefficiency of the school transport system. They are not responsible for this because they did not prepare the transport plans. I hope the Department, in consultation with CIE, will review the school transport system.
I understand that the company are reorganising some bus services. A number of areas where the service is to be curtailed do not have any alternative transport service. For example, the service through Stradbally is to be changed. Stradbally is eight miles from Portlaoise and a bus going to the town picks up passengers from Luggacurran and Ballyadams but I understand that service is due for the chop. I must protest at the decision of CIE to interfere with such an important social service which is availed of by those living in rural areas, particularly the elderly. If that service is discontinued the people in those rural areas will have no public transport service to Stradbally or Portlaoise. The service should be continued until such time as an alternative one is provided, private or otherwise.
I should like to refer to the Grand Canal Company and their successor, CIE. Over the years long stretches of our canals have been disposed of. I do not think it is possible to find anything nicer than an inland waterway and it was wrong of CIE to dispose of parts of our canal system. They should have taken over the canals which are pleasant waterways that have proved attractive to coarse fishermen and boating enthusiasts. In fact, it is possible to travel by canal from Dublin to Athlone and then proceed via the Shannon to Limerick. It is a great link.
If it has been the experience of CIE that these waterways have not been paying for themselves let no drastic action be taken about filling them in. Rather have investigations carried out to ascertain if there are sufficient numbers of enterprising, public-spirited citizens to ensure that there be established by the State what might be known as a waterways board that would take over these canals which in turn would ensure their navigation and preservation. This great waterways link — part of our great heritage — should be preserved and kept fully in navigational order. I hope every effort will be made to ensure that such waterway services are made readily available in the future to be used by us and future generations.
There are many people proud of our transport service. I consider out existing rail services excellent. Also there is great courtesy exercised by those people responsible for both bus and rail services. I hope these services will not alone be maintained in all areas but will be expanded and generally improved.
In the light of present circumstances the Minister should examine the past record of CIE and its future potential in a new era of development. Within that goal efforts should be made to ensure that the primary concern of CIE is to increase, improve and maintain its current staffing levels, to develop their existing depots, to improve on their existing standards. They must also replace some of their worn-out coaches, carriages and buses with new, fully modernised ones to meet the requirements of modern users. Everybody is aware that many of CIE's rail carriages are very old in years, failing in appearance and beginning to show that the time has arrived for their general improvement, complete overhaul or replacement by new stock. Here I want to pay special tribute to those engaged at Inchicore and elsewhere, those engaged on the production and maintenance lines. These are elements urgently required by CIE to add to the comfort of rail users. It must be remembered that, when travelling by rail, one avoids the hazards of the roads. Whilst rail is not 100 per cent safe nobody can guarantee total safety in the air, on the roads, on rail or waterways. It should be remembered also that by using rail travel — certainly in rural areas — one is avoiding the pollution normally experienced whilst travelling in our towns and cities. There should be commenced in CIE a campaign entitled: "Get the heavy traffic off the roads onto the rails" and, if the railway lines are not there, then, where possible, let new ones be provided. There are many parts of this country in which tracks should and could be laid, in which services should be provided, areas where it would be easier and more feasible to provide a rail service rather than institute what might afterwards prove to be a non-profit making road transport service. I strongly recommend that the public give CIE every support, co-operation and encouragement in this respect. I ask them to shrug off the shackles of by-gone days, to review their position in the light of current circumstances, to forget the past but learn from its mistakes. I ask that CIE be inspired by the railway men and transport men of the past through their dedication to service. I would request also better industrial relations between management and workers, eminently desirable in CIE, leading in turn to higher standards of courtesy, efficiency and greater dedication amongst workers. After all, if workers can see that their services are appreciated, and will be appreciated at the end of their days, then they will give of their best, contributing as best they can to providing this country's citizens with a cheap, efficient and courteous transport service. I am glad to say that the foundations exist for such within CIE at present. All that is needed is the will to do so. All this House needs is the political will to provide the money so that the services they must supply can be rendered to all our people, making it easy for them to travel from district to district and area to area.
I want to compliment the Minister and CIE and particularly to thank Mr. Byrne, the Secretary of CIE at Heuston Station, and his staff for the many courtesies I have received when making representations to them. I might say that such courtesy is demonstrated also in their inspectorate division. No matter what part of the country to whom one asks an inspector to go, he will and draw up his report in the event of any problem or grievance.
I want to express to you also, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, my appreciation of your contribution, your knowledge of the working of CIE and your association with that company in the past. Indeed you added personally to the efficiency, integrity and service enjoyed by the public not alone in your district but in the way in which you were associated with numerous CIE/GSR workers, all of whom you knew. All of these people rendered valuable, useful and practical service to our citizens through their ideas for development and expansion of the transport services.
I will be unable to conclude before Question Time and I shall reserve my general comments until after then but I suppose I should keep talking until the dot of 2.30 p.m.
Firstly, may I thank all of those Deputies who contributed to this debate. I appreciate very much their comments. Indeed very many sensible and practical suggestions were advanced in regard to CIE. I have enjoyed the debate, not least because I have not heard one bad word about myself, which is unusual, I should have thought, in a debate such as this and on a Bill voting a lot of money to a company under my jurisdiction.
The debate has been conducted on two levels. I propose to deal with my reply in that way also, firstly in the broad national sense and secondly with Deputies' queries criticisms, who have been concerned also about local issues in their constituencies. When I resume after Question Time I hope to deal with both of these.
Debate adjourned.