asked the Taoiseach if he met the British Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on his recent visit to Dublin.
2.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Visit of British Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
1.
asked the Taoiseach the reason he consented to a meeting between the British Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Minister for Justice; and if he will agree that this is a major departure from the practice which has hitherto been followed in Anglo-Irish relations.
I propose, a Cheann Comhairle, to answer Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.
I did not meet the Secretary of State who was in Dublin for discussions with the Minister for Justice. Bilateral meetings at ministerial level are now a well-established feature of Anglo-Irish relations — and within the European Community — and do not require specific justification, as the Deputy seems to imply.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that it is a departure for the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to meet with the Minister for Justice only and that this has implications, first of all from the point of view of our independence and sovereignty? The traditional practice is that Anglo-Irish relations in so far as Northern Ireland is concerned, have been conducted either on Taoiseach level or Foreign Minister level. Perhaps he would care to comment on that aspect?
It is in no way a precedent. Many meetings have taken place between the Ministers of the two Governments over the whole period of the history of this State. There was no question of meetings between Ministers being channelled through the Minister for Foreign Affairs, even prior to the establishment of the Anglo-Irish Council. Within the council it is, of course, envisaged that Ministers will meet with their opposite numbers. There have, in fact, been precedents for such meetings, including a precedent for such a meeting with the Minister for Justice.
Would the Taoiseach not accept that the fact that the Minister for Justice alone would meet the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland would give some credence, to put it at its mildest, to a belief in certain British circles that Northern Ireland is entirely a security problem? I know that the Taoiseach would agree with me that that is not our position and that we see peace and reconciliation only coming to Northern Ireland through the development of new political structures. The belief that Northern Ireland is nothing more than a security problem is a dangerous belief. Would the Taoiseach not accept that there is a possibility that the fact that the Northern Ireland Secretary of State, responsible for Security in Northern Ireland, could meet our Minister for Justice, who is, of course, responsible for security in this State, would tend to support that erroneous view that the problem of Northern Ireland can be solved entirely by security measures?
I agree with the Deputy's analysis of the problem, but I do not agree that such a meeting lends credence to that view. The Government have made very clear and have, I think, succeeded in conveying to a substantial segment of British public and political opinion in some measure, for the first time, that the view that it is a security problem only is completely erroneous. I do not believe that this meeting in any way detracts from the successful efforts which we are making in that regard.
Question No. 3.
One final point. I shall ignore the Taoiseach's contemptuous little suggestion about something being done for the first time. Unfortunately, he can never resist those irritable little suggestions.
The Deputy always rises to the bait.
What suggestion?
I ask the Taoiseach if he will keep in mind for the future — this meeting has happened so there is nothing that we can do about it — the very real danger which exists that if this sort of security meeting only is to take place, it would have inherent in it the policy dangers which I see?
No, I do not accept what the Deputy says, so I shall not keep it in mind. I did not understand the Deputy's earlier remark about an irritable little reference and therefore, cannot reply to that adequately. What I said was that this was not the first such meeting. I cannot see what is irritable or little about that. It is simply a statement of fact.
The facts can be very irritable.