Minister for the Environment to move the motion.
Local Elections (Specification of Local Election Year) Order, 1984: Motion.
(Dún Laoghaire): There seems to have been a misunderstanding.
They are really a great bunch over there.
(Dún Laoghaire): The order was changed.
When was it changed?
(Dún Laoghaire): At 3.30, by agreement.
The Government side do not want by-elections, they do not want local elections——
They cannot run a parliament and they are looking for reforms.
Where do we go from here?
Confusion.
Will the Minister of State give an indication of what the position is?
(Dún Laoghaire): May I have a couple of minutes? I am waiting for the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment.
He may have resigned or at least he should have.
I move:
That Dáil Éireann confirms the following Order:
Local Elections (Specification of Local Election Year) Order, 1984,
a copy of which Order was laid before Dáil Éireann on the 13th day of January, 1984.
This Order, which has been made under section 2 of the Local Elections Act, 1973, is designed to postpone for one year the local elections which would otherwise be held in June 1984. Section 2 of the 1973 Act empowers the Minister by Order to specify the year in which elections should be held, once he is satisfied that they should be postponed. Any such order shall not come into effect without confirmation by resolution of each House of the Oireachtas. The Order has already been confirmed by the Seanad, by resolution of 15 February 1984.
The reason for the postponement of local elections is to allow a thoroughgoing examination of the structure and financing of the local government system to be completed.
Nobody believes that.
The Deputy will have an opportunity to contribute. The House will be aware of the statement which I issued in December, indicating the need to reform the system in order to equip it to cope with current challenges and developments. That statement referred to the commitment given in the Programme for Government 1981-1986 that local government would be reformed through a reduction in central control and a restructuring to take account of changes in population and the growth of community organisations. It also referred to appropriate status being given to expanding towns and to the need for new local government units in Dublin city and county. The examination of this whole question has been proceeding for some time and it is the Government's intention to bring it to a positive conclusion as early as possible. The postponement of the local elections is designed to facilitate this purpose. The reasons for the current need for local government reform are clear-cut. Present structures were established during the last century and, while they have demonstrated great flexibility during the intervening period, they have been unable to cope adequately with the social and economic demands of recent years.
In particular, our level of population growth, increasing urbanisation and radical changes in the pattern of life have all placed strains on a system which was designed for a different age and different circumstances. Recent years have seen a wide range of new functions being assigned to local authorities in addition to the rapid expansion of their traditional services. The level of urban development which has taken place in Dublin and in other centres throughout the country has made many local authority boundaries irrelevant in so far as the planning of major services is concerned. It has also led to serious distortions in the picture of democratic representation in developing urban centres. The Dublin area presents special difficulties because of its size and the rate of development over the last decade. There is an agreed need for more effective co-ordination of services throughout the entire metropolitan area. Regard must also be had to the special needs of the major new development areas in the west of the county. These areas highlight a problem which is of general relevance throughout the country. The growth in community organisations demonstrates the need for a greater public involvement in local affairs and serves as a challenge to the local government system to respond to the needs of local communities as expressed through these organisations.
The work which is now in progress in my Department in examining the local government system extends to the arrangements for financing the system. There can be no doubt but that since the abolition of domestic rates and, more recently, the successful constitutional challenge to the land valuation system, local authorities have been experiencing significant financial difficulties. These difficulties have, in turn, been passed on to the Exchequer at a time when public expenditure generally is under tight restraint. As a result of these developments, mainly, the proportion of local authority current spending which comes from the Exchequer has gone from 39 per cent in 1977 to 66 per cent currently. There will be general agreement that one of the principal conditions for any system of meaningful local democracy is a substantial degree of financial independence. This situation no longer obtains and I am anxious that measures should be considered as soon as possible to improve the financing base. We should be perfectly clear, however, that there are no simple solutions to the problems of local finance any more than there are to those of the overall public finances. Local expenditure cannot be exempt from the constraints being experienced in relation to public spending generally. However, having said that, I am determined that the current review will produce realistic proposals for an increased level of financial autonomy throughout the local government system.
The recent debate in the Seanad confirms that there is general agreement on the need for reform; also that there are different views as to the lines on which it should be approached. I am anxious that there should be the fullest possible discussion before proposals are finalised. This debate provides an important opportunity for Deputies from all sides to make an input. I hope we can have a full and constructive discussion. I can assure the House that full account will be taken of the views expressed here as well as of those already recorded in the Seanad debate. I have already invited the representative bodies, the General Council of County Councils and the Association of Municipal Authorities to discussions as a further element in the consultation process and will be glad to take account of any submissions which interested persons or bodies may wish to make
The Government are satisfied that the postponement of the local elections to allow the preparation of reorganisation proposals to be completed is a sensible measure and one which has already won general acceptance. This is the first occasion on which the power to postpone local elections by order under the 1973 Act is being invoked. It is not, of course, the first occasion on which local elections were postponed. To put it in perspective, the holding of local elections was postponed on 13 different occasions since independence. If the present order is now confirmed by the House the next local elections will fall due in June 1985. In accordance with the provisions of the Local Elections Act, 1973, the present members of local authorities will continue to hold office until the new elections are held. The 1973 Act also contains consequential arrangements in relation to the appointment of school attendance committees and the meetings of vocational education committees.
As I have already mentioned, the reform of our local government structures is now a matter of pressing concern and I am confident that the order before the House is an important necessary step in allowing that reform to proceed. I commend the Order to the House.
I take it that our amendment is not being accepted by the Chair. We on this side of the House are, therefore, opposing this motion. The Government are abdicating their duties and functions twice in the one day. It would appear to us and to many in the country that the Government, in not holding the local elections this year, are funking their responsibility, refusing to face the electorate. The Minister of State has mentioned, quite rightly, that the local elections have been postponed on 13 different occasions since Independence. I still regard myself as one of the younger Members of the House and I can recall this happening twice in the last number of years. I want to put on the record of the House that the local elections due to be held in 1965 were postponed because a general election was taking place. They could not be held on the following year because of a presidential election. They could not be held until 1967, in which year they were duly held. There should have been local elections in 1972 which were not held until 1974 — again for valid reasons. The then Minister for Local Government had introduced in 1971 a White Paper which was under wide discussion, not alone in the House but among all local authorities. That Minister, Deputy Molloy, who is unfortunately not present, had consultations with nine different regional authorities throughout the country in an attempt to arrive at a format for local government which would be of long-term benefit to the country. There was considerable discussion on those occasions between the Minister and the various authorities.
The Minister has mentioned that the local elections are being postponed because of reforms being carried out at present in local government and other areas. We have not seen any factual results in relation to these supposed reforms. At least, we produced the White Paper in 1972 which was a very significant development for local authorities. The by-election in North Central Dublin prior to Christmas and the opinion polls, some subsequent to that, frightened the day-lights out of the Government, so much so that they have shirked the battle. In the words of one of the leading members of the Cabinet "It is time for digging the trenches, not time for the battlefield". The battlefield would certainly be too rough and tough for the Government at this point in time.
Further, when the local elections were postponed in 1965, the then Minister, Deputy Blaney, introduced the Bill into the House and my predecessor in County Meath, Mr. Tully, stated then: "I have no objection to the postponement of the elections, as a spokesman for the Labour Party". That quotation is from the Official Report, Volume 217, column 802. On the subsequent postponement of the local elections of 1972, the present Ceann Comhairle appears then to have been spokesman for the Fine Gael Party. He blamed the Government for not having the elections because they coincided with the referendum, in the belief that the public would not come out to vote, but had no real, definitive, constructive objections. The reasons for the postponement were valid, positive, definite and fair. There was no option. That cannot be said of today. There is absolutely no reason for postponing the local elections which were to be held next June. It would have been ideal to have had the local and the European elections on the same day. Paradoxically, it has been said this morning in the House that we are to have a by-election in Laoighis-Offaly coinciding with the European elections and yet it was not suitable to have the local elections for the entire country on the same day as the European elections. That is difficult to understand. It is against common sense, which should be the hallmark of any Government's decision.
We stated in our amendment that we deplored the Government's proposal to postpone the holding of the local elections in 1984. We did this because it was running away from the people who have become deflated because of the ineptitude and the indecision of the Government. They have also become deflated by the budget which was watered down recently and which was described by the media as a neutral budget, a milk and water budget, a budget which did not give any confidence to the nation, a budget which did not give any incentive to the industrial sector or the agricultural sector and no hope at all to the unemployed and the educated young force who are coming on the job market. In every town and village throughout the country there are people looking to the politicians to give them a ray of hope, to give our industrialists and employers some incentive to create jobs. There was only one page out of 86 pages in the Minister's budget speech devoted to agriculture. Our farmers as well as people in the industrial sphere have their backs to the wall. Some farmers have even been evicted from their land.
The local elections are not being held this year because of the matters I have just mentioned. We have the deplorable situation of the feeble, inept effort of the Government in relation to the super-levy. The EEC announced this early last summer and it was far too late by the time the Government acted with any effectiveness. If we were in office we would not have allowed that to happen. When Deputy Ray MacSharry and Deputy Brian Lenihan were Ministers for Agriculture they made sure the super-levy did not surface. The dairying industry will suffer if the super-levy is introduced. There are many families involved in that industry.
We have the ridiculous situation where local authorities are expected to provide various services for the community with a frugal increase of 0.8 per cent on last year's allocation to them. They are faced with meeting the shortfall. This does not take into account our inflation rate of around 10 per cent. The Labour members of the Cabinet told the Taoiseach and the Fine Gael members of the Government that the local elections could not be held this year because they would be decimated if they were held. Their vote would be eroded by The Workers' Party.
Fianna Fáil postponed them on the last occasion.
There is evidence in our urban areas and our cities that The Workers' Party are eating into the Labour votes. Fine Gael have nothing to fear from The Workers' Party or from the Labour Party.
Or Fianna Fáil.
A sound democratically based party have nothing to worry about not alone at home but in Europe. If we were the Government today we would not run away from this battle. We did not run away from it in 1979. Do the Deputies opposite recall the wind against us in 1979?
Fianna Fáil did it in 1965 and 1966.
Will the Minister of State not mind 1965? I have given the reasons for 1965 and 1966. We did not run away from the issue in 1979. Even though there was a very difficult wind we went out and faced the battle to our cost but we gave the people the democratic right to judge the Government of the day and their local government of the day. That is the fundamental democratic right of the people. We would give that opportunity today if we were the Government.
Part of our amendment stated that we wanted discussions with the newly elected members of local authorities in order to get their views on how local authorities should be funded and operated. Those of us who are members of local authorities for some years are aware of the problems. We wanted to invite those newly elected members to give us their views which would be innovative. There cannot be anything better than having people with fresh ideas.
Another reason why we wished to have the local elections held this year was that we would get new blood into the various local authorities, corporations, county councils and town commissioners throughout the country. I do not wish any of my friends on this side of the House or the other side to lose their seats on local authorities but democracy and elections being what they are we know that there would be some changes among the members of local authorities. Since I came into the House in 1967 there have been many changes in this House. We intended to encourage the greatest possible participation in the European elections by having the local elections held on the same day. I am speaking as a person who will be a candidate in the European elections. One of the great difficulties for people going forward for the European elections is to stimulate interest, generate enthusiasm and get the message across that Europe is not in the outer hemisphere or on a different planet but that we are an integral part of Europe. Many fundamental decisions will have to be made by those fortunate enough to be elected to the European Parliament and as members of the various European groups.
The problems we have at home are much the same as those of our European partners. The biggest issue across Europe is the problem of massive unemployment. This problem must be arrested by the Government of Europe and constructive and positive policies must be put forward by the Parliament. If we fail to sell the message to the people on 14 June that this is a very serious election which will affect their lives, and particularly the lives of the unemployed, then there is a great possibility that the whole European concept will be eroded.
I submit that holding the local elections with the European elections, as we did five years ago, and having local people running for town commissioners, borough corporations and county councils is an ideal avenue through which the people would be encouraged to come out and vote for their local councillor and also look at the European ticket and say: "There is the party and the man I will vote for. He will do something for me and my family". It is a mistake not to hold the two elections together. The by-election will be held on that day in Laoighis-Offaly and it is difficult to understand why the local elections could not be held on the same day.
On the tenth anniversary of our entry to the EEC in January 1983 the Taoiseach is on record as saying that the local and European elections should be held on the same day to ensure the maximum turnout and to further ensure that our European partners would perceive in us a deep commitment to the philosophies, goals and ambitions of Europe. Strange how the Taoiseach seems to have changed his mind, but then he is a man who changes his mind quite often unfortunately.
His mind was changed for him on this occasion.
He does not know whether the Cabinet, the Donnybrook set or the Labour Party run him. He does not run the country and he certainly does not run himself. He is propped up by PR right, left and centre. Why did he change his mind? The Taoiseach must answer that question.
What will the cost be if the two elections are not held on the one day? There are so many factors involved, from county registrars booking schools, people employed to man the booths, schools being left unoccupied and so on that it is difficult to know where to start in trying to estimate the cost. In my constituency the cost of a general election is of the order of £12,000 to £14,000 to my party. It is a five-seat constituency. If that was spread across all the parties and county registrars throughout the country the estimate would be of the order of £2 million or more. Any sound economist would say that it is only plain ordinary goddamn common sense to hold the two elections on the same day and save everyone, party wise and county wise the double expense.
It provides employment.
That is the only thing that can be said for it. At last we have some incentive for the unemployed: we will hold the elections on two different days. Why did we not put it in the budget?
Would it have upset the Deputy?
I have survived them all so far. We call on the Government to fix Sunday, 17 June 1984 as polling day for the local and European elections. The holding of elections on Sundays is a hobby horse of mine and I fail to understand why we do not hold them on that day.
The first round of the championship.
It might coincide with the first round of the championship between Kildare and Meath.
The Deputy could run his hobby horse at Cheltenham.
We only have point to points on Sundays. We do not have serious racing on a Sunday. In France elections are held on Sundays. I have spoken before in the House about this. I do not understand why we do not hold them on Sundays. The reason given was because people carry out their religious duties on a Sunday and it was felt it would not be compatible with that to hold an election on that day.
Not all of us, Deputy.
One must accept that. Over 98 per cent of the Catholic population have Mass on Saturday nights so that does away with the argument that we should not hold elections on Sundays. That is also the case on the Continent, at least as far as the Catholic Church is concerned. I hope the Minister for the Environment and the Minister of State will look at that suggestion in a positive way. I spoke about this matter before and many people thought there was wisdom in my suggestions.
Not alone should we seriously consider having national elections on Sunday but we should also have our local and European elections on the same day. It would have been sensible to do that and I fail to see why the Government could not have done so. It would have reminded the people that the Government are not asleep all the time and that sometimes they think of something new. If confidence emanated from the Cabinet it might spread to the rest of the country and there might be an incentive for the whole community. I am sorry the Cabinet could not agree to do this. If we were in Government we would seriously consider having the European and local elections on the same day. I know there are arguments for and against it and I would be prepared to listen to those against it. The Government must not be seen to be stodgy and stuffy in sticking to old rules and regulations which were handed down by the British.
When the last local elections were held here, Fianna Fáil took very difficult decisions. There were demands for massive increases in public sector pay which were resisted as far as possible by the Government in the interests of fairness to every section of the community. We also had the famous P & T strike which caused so much distress. That would have been a good enough reason for Fianna Fáil not to face the people but we held the local elections in 1979 when our popularity was certainly not at an all time high. There was also a refuse strike and our canvassers were asked how they would get rid of the black sacks. The Fine Gael canvassers were able to blame Fianna Fáil for the strike——
There were more than black sacks to blame Fianna Fáil for.
We lost the local elections in 1979. The issues had to be faced, we did not want to get the country into debt.
(Interruptions.)
Could I appeal to Deputies to restrain their generous instincts to help Deputy Fitzsimons and allow him to continue unaided?
I appreciate your remarks. They cannot bear to hear the truth because it hurts.
We are only trying to be helpful.
Acting Chairman
The Deputy without interruption, please.
One of the side issues of losing the local elections was that we lost control of most local authorities. That helped the Government to gain control of local elections and, more significantly, control of Seanad Éireann because it is the elected county councillors, borough councillors and Members of this House and Seanad Éireann who elect the Upper House. This affected us very badly in the last three Seanad elections. However, we faced the issues at the time and said that the people had a right to decide. The Government are not giving the people the same opportunity which we gave them in 1979. They are abdicating their responsibilities, funking the issues and digging the trenches instead of stepping out on to the battlefield. The people will not forget. In local democracy there are fundamental issues which also apply to our EEC partners. We could have fought those issues on the ground but we will still fight them when we get the chance. If the by-election in Laoighis-Offaly is held on the same day as the European elections the wrath of the people will vindicate what I am saying today. The Government should have the courage to face the people by holding the local elections when they should have been held.
The resistance to this motion by the Fianna Fáil Party, taking into account Deputy Fitzsimons' speech, indicates the real ineptness of the extent of Fianna Fáil opposition in this Dáil. They themselves more than once on previous occasions have done precisely the same thing for poor enough reasons. They send in Deputy Fitzsimons, a respected and honoured Member of this House who is, perhaps, on his way to the European Assembly and who will also be a candidate in the local elections, thereby achieving triple representation, although Fianna Fáil have waxed lyrical about double representation. Deputy Fitzsimons was sent in to make noises with no great confidence and no great enthusiasm about a matter which Fianna Fáil have accomplished on previous occasions, the postponement of the local elections. No doubt on some future occasion when they are again in government they will have no hesitation in doing the same thing if the circumstances seem to them to be appropriate.
Having local elections, having regard to developments which have taken place on the local scene, is utterly unthinkable. As the Minister points out, the problem of the expanding towns and exploding populations, particularly in the area of County Dublin, must be taken into account and there is no way in which a local election could be held today which would be meaningful for local democracy. The Dublin area is the only one I can speak for and in the five years since the last local election there has been a massive population explosion and many new towns have been built.
In common with my respected colleague, Deputy Seán Walsh, with whom I work in co-operation, I represent the new town of Tallaght which has a population approaching 100,000 people. The local authority which covers the area is Dublin County Council, an institution set up in 1898 which has operated in virtually unchanging fashion since then. It has been proved to the people of Tallaght time and again that the organisation of Dublin County Council is so geared that, having regard to its geographical spread, it is not in a position to deal with the local affairs of Tallaght. A town of such size requires its own urban council and this is what the people of Tallaght have indicated they want. They have submitted a requisition to the Minister for the Environment to set up town commissioners and they are seeking the grant of urban status. This will have to be done if we are to have anything approaching reasonable democracy in the area.
The same considerations and criteria apply in other parts of County Dublin. Local elections worthy of the name cannot be held within the existing parameters. Dublin County Council was geared up as a rural county council and as recently as 20 years ago Tallaght was a small country village whereas now it is a burgeoning town. The Minister had little choice but to postpone these local elections for the purpose of giving reasonable local representation to the people where these demographic changes have taken place.
It is a reflection on successive Governments over the past ten years that plans were not drawn up and implemented to revamp and propose new structures for the entire greater Dublin area, including Dublin city, Dublin county and the Borough of Dún Laoghaire. There has been plenty of talk about it and there have been many reports but all too few of them have reached the level of legislation. I expect that the necessary alterations for the Dublin area will be forthcoming in sufficient time to have them well examined by the three local authorities concerned, by this House and by the Seanad so that we can have effective local structures in good time for the local elections in 1985.
We have had many unacceptable situations developing in Dublin as a result of the failure to tackle this problem. In County Dublin the major developer in relation to house construction at private and local authority level is Dublin Corporation. They have constructed possibly even more local authority houses than the local authority which has the functional responsibility for the area, namely Dublin County Council. The franchise of people living in corporation houses is taken away from them as a result of this. They may have matters to raise with the local authority which housed them, Dublin Corporation, but they do not elect any Dublin Corporation councillors. They live in the functional area of the county council and can only go to a county councillor who is not a member of the corporation. To a large extent many thousands of people in County Dublin are thus disfranchised.
The Minister referred to the wide range of new functions which have been assigned to local authorities, in addition to the rapid expansion of their traditional services. I do not know exactly what functions he is referring to. It comes as some surprise to me. Many of the functions of local authorities are being taken away from them. Local authorities in the United Kingdom certainly exercise a far wider range of functions and powers than they do here. Health used to be a local authority function but it has been taken away. In the UK the local authorities deal with education as well as health. Here education is the function of the vocational educational committees. Also in the UK local authorities in many cases act as the police and transport authorities. All these functions have been taken away from local authorities here and the trend has been to whittle away their powers and functions. This is an undesirable development and I would hope and expect that serious consideration would be given by the Minister to that fact in the new plan which he requires this year and which will be forthcoming for debate.
The question of the financing of local authorities is dealt with by the Minister, together with the arrangements that will have to be made for the financing of the system. That will be a major problem but the nettle will have to be grasped. Local authorities are being denuded of the finances necessary to enable them to provide basic services which hitherto they were enabled to provide through the rates system. Various Governments gave an undertaking and conveyed to the electorate that when the rates were abolished central Government would make good to the local authorities the amount of rating finance they needed.
Fianna Fáil started the trend of not providing sufficient finance and subsequently Coalition Governments followed the same unfortunate pattern. In a nefarious, unseen manner they cut back on the rate substitution figures they were supposed to have provided for the local authorities. Year after year the services the county councils have been able to provide for the people living in the areas have been reduced, whittled away and cut back. This is beginning to show in all sorts of ways, in the maintenance of local authority houses, in refuse collections and in the provision and maintenance of parks and open spaces.
There was a time when a local councillor could go to the manager and complain that such-and-such a service was not receiving the degree of attention to which the people living in the area had been accustomed. Even in my early days — and I have been a member of a local authority for ten years only — the manager would say he would see about it and try to ensure that the service was improved. Now the reply is highly significant and quite different. The reply is that the manager will ensure that the maximum service will be provided within the resources available to him. That response speaks for itself. It is an indication that the availability of finance and workers has been reduced. That trend will have to be arrested. People are entitled to, require and pay for a reasonable degree of cleanliness in their estates, a reasonable refuse collection and to have parks and outdoor spaces provided. They are entitled to grants for community centres. These are all basics. They are not luxuries. They are necessities.
As well as producing his plans for the reorganisation of the areas which I have pointed out is so necessary, especially in new areas like Tallaght I am asking the Minister to ensure that the new authorities which are to be set up will be geared and provided with an adequate degree of finance which will enable them to carry out basic local authority functions in a proper manner and provide the basic necessities and facilities for the people of those areas which they so richly deserve.
The fact that we are not to have local elections has been announced at last, but we knew it for quite a long time. We were aware that, in an attempt to put a bit of a burnish on his tarnished image, the Taoiseach was quite prepared to face the electorate, but Deputy Taylor's party are the very people who did not want an election. They are the people who said no. So much for leadership. The decision was not made by the Leader of the Government but by the Tánaiste. He was moved sideways because of Deputy Cluskey's departure, and he was not left with the odius task of making the announcement.
The Tánaiste had gone to a new post and, during the holiday period when the Dáil would not have an opportunity to discuss it immediately, the announcement was made. That is an example of government by stealth. It was not announced in the Dáil. It was not announced when the decision was made earlier. It was announced around Christmas when it might escape unnoticed.
That is another example of the craven cowardice of this Government. We are to have no by-election. We have no investigation into a bugging scandal. Now we are to have no local elections. The reason for all that is that there is no backbone in the Government. This is a reluctance by a cowardly Coalition to face the electorate and give an account of their stewardship. They looked around for some plausible excuse which would go down well. The obvious one — and little references were made to it when the kite was flown at the start to see how people might react — was that they intended to reform the system. I agree it needs reform. We all know it has needed reform for a long time. It needed reform in 1973 when the then Minister, Mr. Tully, did not give us any extra representation in Kildare but jockeyed around some of the areas and moved Kilcullen into Kildare. We told him what we wanted. That is still on the records of the Department, the Department of Local Government at the time and now with the more grandiose title of the Department of the Environment. I believe that even today very little has been done to bring about that reform.
In Kildare we have a five-seat constituency with a population of about 120,000 people. We have 21 members on the council. Other counties with half our population have as many. We have huge towns in the north of the county and, by the nature of things, it is not possible to divide up the representations among them all. Many of them feel they have no direct representatives from their own towns on the council. One of those towns is Leixlip. Despite the fact that there was a lack of sanitary facilities to cater for that town, one of the last things the then Deputy Tully did as Minister was to grant permission for a huge scheme in Dublin. We had no Bord Pleanála at that time and the Minister used his discretion, or indiscretion as the case may be. He granted permission for a huge complex in Dublin and hoped that Kildare sanitary services would be able to cater for it. That is still a bone of contention. It is an example to us in Kildare of the old saying that a dying wasp will sting you, and he did sting before he left.
Town commissioners feel they are not representative of their areas in cases where the boundaries have grown. Other places in north Kildare have looked for urban status and town commission status which should not be denied to them. There was a movement to extend the town boundary in Naas. In Droichead Nua there are hundreds of houses outside the town boundary and the people there find themselves disenfranchised. This should all have been done long ago, and it is not good enough to say it should be done now.
Deputy Taylor talked about towns expanding. That did not happen overnight or in the past few years. Tallaght has been there for years. I do not know whether it can be dealt with in the course of a year as mentioned, but something should have been done about it before now. Deputy Taylor said he was sure that, having postponed local elections before, Fianna Fáil will postpone them again in the future. At least he is resigned to the fact that we will return to office, as we know we will when we get an opportunity. I doubt that the Labour Party will be able to produce a Minister for the Environment in the future.
Somebody mentioned local authority financing. I hope that will be one of the reforms. Local authority housing is chaotic. We have disgraceful roads. When representations are made to an engineer the reply is that he cannot do much because of lack of finance. We have 20 applicants for every house. There is no capital expenditure in the budget to cater for them. Sanitary facilities are needed everywhere. There is no expenditure on roads. We had a good team of people who completed the work on the Naas by-pass. There is much more work to be done in North Kildare, or on an extension of the by-pass to cater for Newbridge and Kilcullen and to give southern bound traffic greater scope. That was not done.
Local authority financing is in such a state that it will break down completely. Government Departments have been granted an 8 per cent or 9 per cent increase in their financial allocation just to keep them ticking over. How can you expect a local authority granted only a .8 per cent increase, one tenth of what other Departments get——
10.3 per cent.
.8 per cent. No matter what the Minister says I am sticking to the .8 per cent increase and I know I am right. They will not take over. It will be something like the budget. The Minister says there are degrees of public involvement in local affairs. This is not the way to get a greater public involvement. To my mind greater powers have been given to the present managers. They have authority now to impose service charges and I agree with Deputy Taylor that it is his experience, as it has been my experience, that the powers of local authorities have been consistently eroded. They have less powers now than they had. We have a situation now where the manager at the instigation of the Tánaiste can impose charges for water and sewerage and refuse collection. He can even impose a charge of £5 to join the library service. Carnegie was a Scotsman and they are reputed to be mean but here now we have a charge of £5 to join the library service. It is ridiculous. We have had an example of how people kick against such a charge. This sort of thing is not really democratic.
The Minister talks about wide-ranging powers being given to members of local authorities. When he was thinking up his excuse he said to himself this was a nice phrase and he would put it into his speech. It is quite meaningless. Wide-ranging powers are being curtailed every day. If the Minister is using the excuse of reforming local authorities then I would ask him to do a good job and get down to work immediately. We have a request in from Kildare County Council that we want 29 seats. We are entitled to that number. It is also high time the Minister examined the situation with regard to subsidiary bodies and the very outdated regulations that exist with regard to them. There is a great distortion in the Seanad voting and eligibility for Seanad voting because of the failure of successive Governments and the Department of the Environment in particular in updating the representation the populations in the various counties demand.
With regard to subsidiary bodies, I want to deal with a matter that came up some years ago in the county committee of agriculture. We in our wisdom decided we would leave one place vacant for a representative of the farming community. We took that decision voluntarily. On the day the county council met these representatives were to be nominated on the county committee of agriculture and we indicated we would leave one position vacant. At the time Deputy Clinton was Minister for Agriculture. Eventually when we got a consensus of the farming community and named the persons, a well-known member of the IFA, a milk producer and a worthy representative — we were not aware and neither am I aware yet of his political allegiance — because he did not mention the Minister on that particular day he was not allowed to take his seat on the committee. That was in Minister Clinton's time. That should not have happened, but it did happen.
We have VEC representation in Kildare now which is, I believe, far too political. At one time it was not so political. We did not allow politics to enter into education. We prided ourselves on that. But I am afraid politics have entered in now. The representatives of bodies under the aegis of the VEC, the TUI, have sought representation by statutory right on these bodies. They have explored the position where in other semi-state bodies, such as Bord na Móna, a statutory right has been given to TUI members to act on those bodies. They would hope that by worker participation a teacher, or any other employee, someone employed in the VEC system, could be their representative. That should be granted.
We have pension committees and I believe the areas in which these pension committees work are probably the same areas that were first drawn up when the poor law guardians operated. The same areas exist today. The committees are toothless and powerless. The Minister and the Department make the decisions and no matter what recommendations are made they are overruled. It is high time we looked into that.
Having said all that I can quite see that the Government of the day and it could just be the luck of the country that they would be there again next year ——
And the year after.
That could be just the hard luck the country may suffer, but we want a promise that the elections will take place next year. I cannot see any light at the end of the tunnel. Minister of State, Deputy Collins, saw it when he looked out from the "Metalman" some years ago. I wonder if this Coalition will not be in hot water, or maybe hotter water, next year with a budget and an unemployment figure getting nearer to 250,000, with all the problems still that they were going to solve. Indeed, I wonder would they like to postpone the elections for another year. What excuse will they have then? Possibly they might say the very wide-ranging reforms had not been completed. I hope the officials in the Department will get busy now and ensure these reforms are dealt with without delay. Perhaps that would be helpful.
Years ago people accepted that local elections were always held in a year ending in five or nought and one could plan one's diary in advance. We are back now to 1985 and I hope it will be 1985 and that the Government will settle on the five-year period. It is a pity they did not use the opportunity we used to have the local elections and the Euro-elections on the same day. That would stimulate interest and get the voters out. This decision to my mind can only be considered as a insult to county councillors, urban district councillors and town commissioners. The people occupying those positions at present might be happy enough to stay there, particularly those representatives of Fine Gael and Labour who might feel somewhat shaky, but it is not right to let the term run into six or possibly seven years. I have the greatest admiration for these people. They do wonderful work. They are unpaid. They are very close to the public. They are very unselfish people. If they were not they would not occupy these positions.
It is vital for local democracy that these elections should be held. It is no wonder the people have become cynical about this Government. The greatest nudge this Government got with regard to elections was when they lost the Dublin by-election. It was brought home to them then not alone in rural Donegal but in the urban inner city of Dublin, where they had some hope of gaining support, that their star was no longer in the ascendant. They failed miserably. The Labour Party in particular were given a clear indication of where they stood.
That is the reason these elections are being postponed. One often notices that boxers when they are getting a bit long in the tooth are very reluctant to defend their titles. They postpone possible fights. They like to pick an easy touch. As far as this Government are concerned there are no easy touches left in Laoighis-Offaly just as there are no easy touches left in Donegal or Dublin. They are safe nowhere in Ireland now. They will not take us on in the county championships. They will not even take us on in the club matches with the local elections. Unfortunately for them they have to play in the European cup and I know they will get their answer there.
This extraordinary Coalition, the fourth and final one, I venture to remark, have been only about 15 months in power. My Fine Gael colleague from Kildare said on an earlier occasion that he would not like to portray them as a galaxy of geniuses or something like that. They were reputed to be the cleanest Cabinet ever and that was exemplified by the Minister for Justice, who said he would clean up the Department of Justice from the word go. He was the favourite of the media. I felt at an early stage in his Ministry that his cause for canonisation was very far advanced. I cannot understand why he is so silent now. Maybe he has taken a vow of silence to further his cause for canonisation, but since his own favourite subject of bugging has been raised — he majored in that subject — he has been very silent.
Keep to the motion please, Deputy.
We have borrowed more money than ever before. There are more people unemployed. The 18 year olds who cannot get jobs but who have the vote are ready to give this Government their comeuppance. A report of the Commission on Taxation commissioned by Fianna Fáil is at the Government's disposal but they will not implement the proposals of that commission. They are piling more on the PAYE sector every day and the taxation situation is not getting any better. This Government are a disgrace. They are the most unpopular Government ever. I would forgive them if they were prepared to come out of their corner and face the people, but they have thrown in the towel before the fight and that is the first time that happened.
We demand that an election be held in June on the same day as the European elections.
Some boxers are notorious when they come out of their corners, and one should be always be very wary that they do not deliver a knockout punch.
I would like to refer to some of the allegations of Government cowardice made in this House today. It has been alleged that they do not have the courage to meet the people and the result of the Dublin by-election is supposed to be the reason for this alleged cowardice. I ask Fianna Fáil to cast their minds back to other Dublin by-elections and remember that the vacancies were not necessarily caused by anybody on this side of the House.
A number of people have suggested that on the one hand it is necessary to have local government reform and to redraw the boundaries and the structures that have governed local government for a number of years and on the other hand that we should immediately proceed with the local elections. We have to make up our minds what exactly we want. There is no sense telling the public that the Opposition are at one and want elections urgently to be able to flush out this so-called cowardly Government and to teach them a few tricks and at the same time tell the public there is a need for reform.
My colleague opposite said that around 1974 the then Minister for Local Government received a submission from the Fianna Fáil Party which involved very wide-ranging reforms which would resolve all our problems in relation to local government. What did they do when they got into power in 1977? Did they implement their own proposals? Not likely. If elections were held at some vague date in the future and should the people be unfortunate enough to have another Fianna Fáil Government, there would still be no reform. Their proposals would remain untouched and local government would remain as it was — archaic, outdated and unworkable.
Deputy Fitzsimons said it was time for digging the trenches. There is no need to dig trenches. They are already there, a mute testimony to the failure of local government over the last four or five years. If anybody wants to see that all he has to do is drive around any of the roads and see where the local government structure has broken down. The financial structures are non-existent. Every local authority is crying out for new ways and means to raise finance in its own area. What have Fianna Fáil to offer? Nothing except the pious platitudes we have been listening to all day. I am disappointed they were not more constructive and were not prepared to make submissions to reform local government.
Reference has been made to an uni-maginative budget — how that came into this debate I do not know but I presume it was another way of saying that the Government parties were afraid to meet the public. I can remember a budget the only major ingredient of which was the doubling of VAT from 2½ per cent to 5 per cent, and that was not 100 years ago. Fianna Fáil will remember that because we all remember it.
The whole structure of local government needs very careful appraisal, first from the point of view of the local authority area of jurisdiction. There have been numerous requests from various authorities — urban town commissions or local authorities — where there may be need for changes to allow for current development, such as large scale housing developments which were never envisaged when the structures were originally introduced and for which a number of amendments need to be made to allow the people living in those areas to feel they have direct representation locally.
People may say that the introduction of new tiers of administration, extra administrators or bureaucrats would be the answer, but that to my mind is not the answer. What we need is a proper financial structure and to be able to create a situation where the people living in a local authority area will recognise that there is some way they can pay into a system which in turn gives them the services they want. They have not seen that for a number of years now. If we consult with people in the urban or rural areas we get the same reply again and again. They are paying taxes but they cannot see where their money is being spent. If we do nothing else in the next 12 months but create a system where those people will recognise that they are doing a useful job paying into the system and that they will see a return for their money, then we will have done a good day's work.
One of the reasons for the strain in the local government system is the fact that over the years local authorities have been given fewer powers but more responsibilities, a rather peculiar system. Local authorities are responsible for the implementation of the Litter Act and the prevention of water pollution. They are also responsible for water quality control, fire and refuse collection services and a host of areas where local involvement has become imperative by virtue of legislation passed by this House and upon which there has been no follow-through by way of provision of extra financial accommodation. It is ridiculous to expect the local government system to work under those circumstances. We would be failing in our duty as local and national representatives if we were not prepared to consider the matter and bring forward suggestions to resolve this serious problem.
I can think of many reasons, in addition to the condition of our roads, why we should have such reform. For example, such matters as the provision of sanitary services and refuse collection should be taken into consideration. I do not believe that the charges introduced in recent years — some of which were opposed — are the ideal way to finance local authorities but it is the only system that could be devised in a short time to collect sufficient finance to enable local authorities to carry on. The reform that is taking place should give serious consideration to replacing those charges with a more equitable financial structure. The rating system which operated up to a few years ago was unfair because it did not take account of the ability of a person to pay. We should grasp the nettle now and introduce an equitable system of local charges. That should be done within the next 12 months.
The public perception of public representatives and representation by them is not what we would like it to be because people feel that public representatives cannot do very much for them. As Deputy Power stated if one writes to the engineering section of any local authority one gets a reply to the effect that they are unable to meet the request because of lack of finance. It is no wonder that the public should conclude that there is little point in voting for public representatives. We must change the structures and make the system more relevant from the point of view of the general public. I have no doubt that the public will respect us if we do that. I do not think the public will deliver the body blows the Opposition have suggested but they will recognise that we had the courage to undertake the important reforms required, even if that meant having the courage to postpone the local elections for a valid reason.
We are all aware of the reason for that decision.
The Deputy should not be too sure about the reason he has put forward because when the time comes for the local elections the Deputy may have a different view.
The result of the Dublin Central by-election was a factor in this decision.
I have already given my views on other by-elections. Most Members serve on local authorities and I hope I will be returned at the next election.
As a matter of fact I hope to join the Deputy.
I do not think local representatives get the respect they deserve. Their work on local councils involves a lot of driving, postage and so on and that is not recognised by people. Local representatives do not get the returns for the effort they put into their work. The system should be changed. I hope in the coming months that the Opposition will put forward submissions in regard to local authority reform. In 1974 they made such submissions to the Minister for Local Government but when in power they did not implement any of them. We forgive them for that lapse but we will not be so forgiving if they do not put forward constructive submissions now. At the end of the day our people will be the winners if we can show them that the money collected in taxation is spent in their areas and if we can show them that local representatives have a say in the method of collection and spending.
Deputy De Rossa rose.
I am calling on Deputy Seán Walsh next. The list I have in front of me reads, Deputies Taylor, Power, Durkan, Seán Walsh, Enda Kenna and Pat Cope Gallagher. The Deputy will appreciate that that is the order I am following. The Deputy will get an opportunity later.
Will the Chair inform me how those Members offered?
They were present in the House at 5 p.m.
I understood that offering meant standing in the Chamber. That is according to Standing Orders.
Those Members indicated to me that they wished to speak and I listed them accordingly. The Deputy will be called in due course. The debate will not conclude this evening.
We have heard a lot of talk today from the Government side about local government reform. As a member of Dublin County Council I appreciate that there has been rapid development in the area covered by that body such as Clondalkin, Blanchardstown and Tallaght. It is no harm to remind the Minister that Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council have been controlled by the Coalition parties for a number of years. The last speaker dealt at great length with the financing of local authorities and urged us to grasp this nettle but I should like to put it on record that when we were discussing the estimates for Dublin County Council very few Fine Gael or Labour members were present. At the conclusion of the debate some of them started to argue between themselves to get an excuse to leave the Chamber. One of the people I am referring to was a Member of this House and is now a Member of the other House. When Deputy Durkan suggests that we should grasp nettles he should also stress the importance of Members living up to their responsibilities.
That would not happen in Kildare.
The debate relates to the postponement of the local elections and the financing of local authorities and in such a debate it is no harm to highlight the attitude of some of the Coalition members on Dublin County Council. Some Fine Gael members at the meeting I referred to did everything possible to get an excuse to leave the Chamber so that they would not have to make a decision. That may be one of the reasons for postponing the elections. I regret that Deputy Taylor left the Chamber after his contribution because I would have liked him to hear that point.
I support Deputy Molloy's amendment. I regret that the elections will be postponed. In 1979 Fianna Fáil could have postponed the local elections. At that time the Government were not popular but they proceeded with the local elections after increasing the membership of Dublin County Council from 25 to 36. The Coalition parties did well in that election but I am satisfied that if the local elections were held this year that position would be reversed.
The Minister referred to the extra responsibilities given to local authorities in recent years. Deputy Molloy, listening to the then Tánaiste, Minister for the Environment, speaking about water charges, was told that the responsibility for these charges still lay with the members of the local authorities. We realised at the time, but could never get him to admit, that the powers had been passed on by the Tánaiste to the county managers to make these charges themselves. As a member of a local authority — Dublin County Council — I want to make the position very clear. Responsibilities previously held by local authorities have been very much removed from them down through the years and it appears that that will continue. The present Minister will continue to pass on the functions regarding new charges to the Acting County Manager or County and City Manager, as is the case in Dublin city and county. I am satisfied that this will apply throughout the country.
The present Minister is I believe, still a member of Dublin Corporation. If I am wrong, I stand corrected. I want to refer in his presence to the rapid development by Dublin Corporation in west Tallaght, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown and particularly in Tallaght, where many thousands of local authority houses have been built without any recreational facilities. I have told the housing co-ordinator Mr. Morrissey, that some facilities should be provided by Dublin Corporation to help these people. We are told that discussions are taking place at present with the Department of the Environment. I make a special appeal to the Minister to see that something is done. It is all very fine to say that grants are available and so on. How can people, moved out from the centre of the city and arriving in these areas without any organisation whatsoever, be expected to form a community council or residents association to look after the provision of these facilities? The time has come for reform, in the interests of these people.
Because of the massive development by Dublin Corporation in the Tallaght area, the itinerant problem has been intensified. Very few facilities are provided by Dublin Corporation for itinerant families, the whole responsibility being hived off on to Dublin County Council. These are the reforms that we would like to see, reforms which mean something.
On the question of postponement of the local elections, there is no doubt that these elections were postponed in the past. As Deputy Taylor said, which I was very pleased to hear, Fianna Fáil will probably postpone them again. The local elections were held in 1979 and they should be held on this occasion. The excuses given are reform and new financial structures, but we all know that the real reason is that of the two parties making up the Government, one party did not want the local elections to take place and the Taoiseach had to give way in order to have the budget passed.
There is mention of postponing the local elections until June 1985. Possibly the speakers on the opposite side of the House will try to tell us otherwise, but it is well known that the decision has been taken that these elections will be postponed until June 1986. That is the view around this House and among the various local authorities so why are we not given this information here today? If a document has been produced with this information, why can it not be clearly brought into the open, giving the reason for the postponement of the local elections and when they are going to take place? I fully realise the need for reform, but I hope the reform will be carried out in a proper manner and will mean something, especially to people in these newly developed areas. There has been much mention of reform on paper but it is the people, particularly those in local authority housing who can do little or nothing for themselves, who need the benefit of reform.
Deputy Taylor mentioned the question of urban status for Tallaght. Every member of Dublin County Council would fully support that call and it would be welcome. However, what powers will members of an urban council have in an area such as Tallaght? Practically nil. Those powers are being removed over the years.
I favour the holding of local elections. I have been for many years a member of a local authority and for quite a few years a Member of this House and never could it be levelled at me that I opposed the holding of any election when the time came, particularly local elections. I do not see why they should not be held now. Of the members of the various parties who control Dublin County Council, when it comes to facing their responsibilities quite a number fail to turn up and when it comes to making a decision they are afraid to meet their responsibilities. If any additional charges are to be incurred, the responsibility for these will be handed over to the County Manager or the Assistant County Manager of the day. If we are going to call that reform, heaven help the people of Dublin city and county.
Deputy Durkan referred to financing and said that when one writes to an engineer, a county manager, an assistant manager or some official one gets the reply back that they have not any money. Is it any wonder we have not money in County Dublin when the members concerned are afraid to face their responsibilities. As I said on many occasions, if a member decides to go forward for local election and he is elected to a local authority he should face his responsibilities. I want to put on the record of the House the itinerant problem, which is such a major one in the Tallaght area. We have members of the local authority who shout loudest about the itinerant problem and say that something should be done, but they would like some decision taken at council level when they are not present so that they can go and tell the people that they were not part and parcel of that decision. This is the type of local government we are having at the moment. I hope if we are to have reform that something will be done about this as well. I hope that reform will mean something and will be of some benefit to the people concerned. I support the amendment tabled by Deputy Molloy to proceed with holding the local elections.
This decision by the Government is a double blow to the Opposition today. They have had their chance on the by-election in Laoighis-Offaly and that has been voted down. Presumably from the intimations in their speeches they have now assumed that, their amendment not being accepted, the motion will be carried in favour of the Government. Deputy Walsh seems to have something on the councillors in Dublin County Council in regard to their inability to contend with their democratic responsibilities. I am sure those councillors will answer that charge in their own way.
I made my point very clear.
I am not a member of that local authority and I am not in a position to answer his specific charges but I assume the record will show that up. Local elections have been postponed 13 times already since the foundation of the State. When the Opposition were in Government, it is fair to say, they always did what had to be done so far as retention of power was concerned until the people threw them out at various times in the history of the State. In 1979 the Fine Gael Party did not allow their European candidate members stand for local authority elections on the basis that it was impossible to do both jobs effectively. That decision has been carried forward again this year into the European elections. The dual mandate has not been allowed except in the case of serving members who will have to decide on the course of their careers inside a specific time limit. That decision was taken by the party so far as their members are concerned. They stand for one area of responsibility only.
In 1979 when there were members standing for European elections and local elections on the same day, and possibly for both elections at the one time, this stimulated local interest, but I believe the time has come when European elections should stand on their own merits. It is time the people, as members of the European Communities, were able to live up to their responsibilities; and whether the vote be 20 per cent, 50 per cent or 75 per cent those elections should stand on their own merits in that regard. The increase in apathy, frustration and cynicism among young people in one sense stems from the lack of access and credibility they have in their representatives. That stems in turn from the fact that they do not see effective results and effective decisions emanating from local authorities at the present time and at national level too in many cases.
It is in the larger urban areas, where local representatives now represent more people than many Dáil representatives, that those people who have no real authority or no real power vested in them have to contend with community councils and communities of people who are frustrated because they have not got the facilities they require. This leads to a sense of apathy and to the ill repute of politicians and public representatives in general. The urban councils all over the country have grown far beyond the lines laid down in the original terms of the legislation setting up urban councils. Any rural town that has expanded in the last 20 years has expanded far beyond those limits, so there is a need for reform there.
The necessary importance has never really been given to the desire for change right across Europe in terms of increased powers and increased effectiveness of the local authority system. The national media in any European country naturally tends to give priority to international events and the newspapers of Europe and the media in general are always littered with sensational headlines with regard to enlargement of the Community, nuclear problems, agricultural problems, political scandals or major financial implications and decisions. The effectiveness of local authority reform and local government reform in any country is never given due prominence in the media so that the people living in those countries can be informed that their political masters at least have their interests at heart in trying to reform local government effectively. There is a great strength of commitment and will among local authority members to see the system changed effectively. That commitment has never been matched by national Governments over the years. We had the 1972 report, a White Paper on this matter, and we had a discussion paper in 1973. Nothing happened about that since except for various submissions from different organisations who tried to raise the matter at various times.
The reorganisation of local government is not simply a matter of managing the affairs in a better way. It calls into question the fundamental principle of local autonomy, the relationship that exists between local government and national government and the whole political philosophy of government, so far as that relationship exists, and how local government should be financed to provide facilities for the people.
The legislation governing local authorities was drafted in 1894. We are now 16 years from the end of this century and we are really trying to cater for a twentieth century country with nineteenth century legislation. Many of the statutes, functions and matters referred to local authorities are no longer relevant to them and have not been so for many a long day. The Minister of State with responsibility for this has an opportunity to create an everlasting name for himself by being the Minister to bring about effective local government reform. County council meetings all over the country are turning into local rows and do not achieve anything except heighten the fun so far as the local newspapers can present it to their people. No real or effective financial decisions can be taken because the executive powers are vested in the county manager and, irrespective of the wishes of the council, the manager has effective executive control over any decisions that have to be taken. Since the legislation was first drafted in 1894 there have been many changes. There were major changes in demographic trends. We now have 50 per cent of the population under 25 years of age. There have been great infrastructural changes and much of rural Ireland is now supplied with basic sanitary and water facilities which urban Ireland took for granted for many generations.
With the abolition of rates a few years ago the interest charges on loans secured to provide these facilities are crippling local authorities. At meeting after meeting councillors state their vehement opposition to the ineffectiveness of local government. They desire effective change and it is time for that. Between now and the holding of the local elections, the Minister should implement local government reform. I was disappointed at his speech. It did not spell out the reasons for change. There should have been further detail about the need for change in the new satellite towns of Dublin and the functions which are no longer relevant to local authorities.
He might be aware of them.
The Minister should set about proving to the Opposition that his speech was not just bland words but that he intends to implement reform. His predecessor had many good ideas about how it should be reformed. He visited many local authorities and took their views into consideration. The Minister of State should accumulate that information and co-ordinate it into an effective plan or else give councillors an opportunity to re-state their views. He should call in the 29 Government agencies which exist to help business people and ask for their views on how there might be less duplication of resources and how energy could be channelled into local government reform so that councillors would be able to do an effective job. The county managers, assistant managers and county secretaries should be called in and asked for their views on local government reform. Planners, architects and the various regional bodies and organisations should be called in. There is a lot of very hard work to be done if effective reform is to be introduced in the next 12 months before the extension date expires.
If the Minister of State does all that it will be after the turn of the century.
The Deputy's party had their opportunity and did nothing about it. Deputy Power referred to many minor committees of local authorities — national monuments, sheep-dipping, library and itinerant committees. Many of these are ineffective and obsolete in some cases. The Minister should bring in a plan so that the Opposition will see that he is serious about reform and that their charges of fleeing before the public and being fearful of the electorate are not valid.
As regards members of a political party who are democratically elected not being met by Ministers of my party or the Labour Party when they are members of various delegations, I do not think any Fine Gael Ministers refused to meet any one yet. I do not know what the position would be if Fianna Fáil were in office. If a local radio Bill goes through, presumably councillors will be asked to speak on their local radio about local issues. That question must be looked at.
Many people do not have pride in their country. They have no pride in their environment and the priceless heritage we have by comparison with our European counterparts. It is obvious from the filth and rubbish on the roads, beaches and scenic areas that people are not proud of their country. That does not apply across the board but it is true of a certain percentage of the population. Effective local government representation would see to it that people knew where their representatives were and the powers they had. They would see to it that they played their part in the proper upkeep of their part of the country.
County councils are only rubber stamps for executive decisions taken by someone else. Councillors can have a bash at each other in a political sense but the decisions taken are ineffective in terms of the powers vested in them. It is fair to say, due praise has been paid to them already today, that they are the unpaid slaves of the public. They attend many meetings and deal with various organisations. They do not have the authority to do what they know should be done. There may be political reasons for that but that is how it is.
The financing of local government is of paramount importance to the Minister of State. In view of the present production of the Estimates, in each local authority area the people are beginning to realise that the financing structure at present is not working. While there is restraint on local authority income there is no restraint on statutory demands made on them. A local authority might now get .8 per cent of an increase in its revenue from central funds but it could be challenged with up to 23 per cent of an increase in a statutory demand from a body such as the Office of Public Works or a health board. This places a crippling burden on many ratepayers and taxpayers in the local authority areas. In my county many small shopkeepers are faced with the proposal of paying £31 in the pound rateable valuation. They are in competition with multinationals and have to pay tax, VAT and so on. This is a crippling burden on them. The Minister and the Government must look at it.
If the trend of having a payment for this, that and the other with the right of appeal continues, the system will be clogged up from an administrative point of view. It would be far better to have one decent charge which would equal all the small charges with appropriate rights of appeal and waiver facilities. The system is not working effectively.
The ratio of representation between councillors and the people they represent has to be taken into account. In rural areas councillors represent a certain number of people. In the larger urban areas, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Dublin, councillors represent more people than are represented by Dáil Deputies. Without effective powers and legislation, confusion, apathy and cynicism grow among the people who see that kind of ineffectiveness in their elected representatives. I accept the decision of the Government to postpone local elections until 1985. We would not mind if they did take place sooner; we have no fear in that regard. However, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment must prove to the House and the country that his speech here today will be backed up by effective action in the next 12 months and that when local elections take place in 1985 there will be a properly represented and effective system of local government in operation. As a member of a local authority, I would welcome that.
I also deplore the proposal of the Government to postpone the local elections which were due to be held in June. We have been told they will be held in June 1985 and I accept that because the Minister for the Environment, in answer to a question from me, said that elections would be held. However, the Government are noted for changing their minds very often so I fear that the elections due to be held in June 1984 will not be held until June 1986.
I accept that there are 13 precedents for this but I do not intend to go back as far as 1894 or even to decades after that Local elections should have been held in 1972 but, at that time, we were preparing a White Paper in regard to local elections and there was a valid reason for not holding them then. The Government have not produced a White Paper and I doubt that any reform in relation to local government has commenced. The Government must give ample opportunity to public representatives, county councillors and the public at large to make submissions. If they do this, there would not be enough time between now and June 1985 to hold these elections. Councillors elected in 1984 should be able to study any revision which the Minister may introduce and I believe it would also give the Minister and Department of the Environment officials a better opportunity to study the position also. The Government and the Minister have been set the task of restructuring local government. However, I firmly believe that that is only an excuse to postpone this election.
If this election had been held it would have saved something in the region of £1 million. During the Dublin Central by-election, local gossip said that the outcome of that election would decide whether local elections would be held this year. It is scandalous that the Government and the Minister for the Environment should decide to hold a by-election on the basis of the result of the Dublin Central by-election. Members of the Government party were relieved that there would not be any local government elections.
Last week the Minister for the Gaeltacht told us that elections for Údarás na Gaeltachta would be held in October of this year. If the Government are seriously interested in saving money, Údarás na Gaeltachta elections should be held on the same day as the European elections thus saving at least some of the £1 million which will be lost as a result of not holding the by-election on the same day as the European elections. If the legislation introduced in the last session by the Minister for the Environment is a forerunner of further legislation I believe we will be left with a dictatorship. They introduced legislation reducing the reserve functions of local authorities and increasing executive functions. I believe new legislation will provide for executive functions and that there will be no functions for the councillors who are elected to represent the people at local government level. If the Minister for the Environment is serious about looking after local government finances he should get his accounts in order and pay the councils what he owes them. Agricultural grants and domestic rate relief should be paid. At present the Department of the Environment owe something in the region of £800,000 to Donegal County Council. Before we start on any restructuring of local authority all bills should be paid and we should have a clean sheet. We should be given an opportunity to carry out some of the functions for which we were elected at local authority level. We have been given a miserly increase of 0.8 per cent to try to carry out our functions. The Minister must realise the conditions of the roads and the problems which all local authorities have.
Members of Údarás na Gaeltachta were elected by the people of the Gaeltacht and when the Minister did not have his way there he decided he would call in the three board members who did not agree with the Minister at the time. How right they were. He decided he would have a little dictatorship in the Gaeltacht. We will not allow the Government to introduce restructuring of local government and deprive county councils of power. I believe that is what they want to do and we had another indication of that today ——
We did not abolish councils.
But it is your intention to do so. We had another indication today of the dictatorship of the Government. They were not prepared to give the electorate of Laoighis-Offaly an opportunity to go to the polls in three or four weeks time to elect a successor to Deputy Cowen.
I wish to refer to the question of further moneys due to the council as a result of the undertaking by the former Tánaiste and Leader of the Labour Party who informed us that moneys would be made available to pay for clearing frost and snow. Those moneys are still owed to Donegal County Council. It cost £207,000 this winter to clear the roads and I believe we will have serious difficulty in obtaining that money from the Department of the Environment.
The newly-elected members could discuss any reforms which the Minister might introduce. The electorate are hoping that the Minister will not have an opportunity to introduce the type of legislation he wishes. The Minister has been saddled with this job and told to take on the mantle of restructuring local government while the Government have no serious interest other than postponing these elections.
The Deputy will have an opportunity when the legislation comes before the House to make all those points.
The Minister says that the postponement is in order to allow a thorough examination of the structure and financing of local authority systems to be completed. One would get the impression that it was almost completed. If this is the case it is disgraceful that no opportunity was given to local authority members to make submissions. I contend that this examination has not even started.
I am sorry to disillusion the Deputy.
I am fearful of this restructuring in view of the legislation enacted last year whereby powers were taken from councillors and given to the country managers who can be dictated to by the Minister and the Government.
Is oth liom a rá go bhfuil mé i gcoinne an ordaithe seo. Being against the order being made by the Government I fully support the amendment put forward by Deputy Robert Molloy which was not accepted. The exact terms of the amendment are as follows:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute:
"deplores the Government's proposal to postpone the local elections due to be held in 1984,
recognises the need for the strengthening of local democracy following full discussions with newly elected members prior to the introduction of amending legislaton, encourages the greatest possible participation in the European Parliament elections by holding them on the same day as local elections, deplores the additional cost if local elections and European Parliament elections are not held on the same day,
opposes the confirmation of Local Elections (Specification of Local Election Year) Order, 1984, and calls on the Government to fix Sunday, 17th June, 1984 as polling day for local elections and European Parliament elections."
The efforts being made by the Government and Government speakers to camouflage the real reason these elections are not being held and the diversions and irrelevances which are being used will not distort the real fact which is established in the minds of everybody. The underlying reason the elections are not being held is that the Government are afraid to face the electorate. It is an example of the cowardice which has been shown by them on numerous occasions. This is the pinnacle of their success in establishing cowardice. Irrespective of what Members might say in support of this order, we know that our colleagues in the Government parties do not wish to have these elections. They are afraid of an annihilation at local level. I say again that their decision is based on cowardice. I could say that cowardice or shirking responsibility is a phenomenon very often manifested, particularly by the major party in this Government. It is born out of their history, even when they had a different name. They showed this cowardice then and it is not strange to me or to anybody else that it should be manifesting itself again.
The Deputy's party did it eight times. What is he talking about?
We did it but not for the same reason.
Give us the reasons.
They have been given already this evening and I will repeat them if the Deputy wishes. Never did we shirk the responsibility of accepting a challenge. This is the challenge I am putting to the Government on behalf of the people: "Come out and face the electorate and take your medicine, whether it be good or bad." We know it will be good for us and bad for the Government. The most recent local elections were held in 1979 when the winds were against us. There were a number of decisions which had to be taken and I can elucidate them if necessary.
They had a 20-seat majority.
If we had been as cowardly in 1979 as this Government are now, we would not have held the local elections on the same day as the European elections. A number of problems and unpopular decisions had to be made. We went to the country at a time when we accepted that we were to a certain degree unpopular due to the decisions we were taking. Nevertheless we faced the electorate and if this Government had the same guts they would do the same thing now and stop this foolishness of trying to persuade us that we will have an enormous reform of local government. It would take ten years to do all that was outlined. They expect the electorate to believe that it will be done in 12 months when in actual fact they need only to look at the record of the Government and their history over the past 12 months to know from their abject failure that there is no way they will be ready for local government reform in 12 months' time. It must be said again and again that the result of the Dublin Central by-election had a most telling effect on the decisions taken by the Government.
Debate adjourned.