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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Mar 1984

Vol. 348 No. 12

Private Members' Business. - Unemployment Rise: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann, alarmed by the ever-increasing rise in unemployment, condemns the Government for continuing to ignore this social disaster or to take any positive action to deal with the situation.
—(Deputy O'Kennedy.)

The Minister for Finance demonstrated in the House last night that the Government are unaware of the seriousness of the unemployment problem in the country. If he believes, as he claims, that there has been an easing in the unemployment trend since the Government took office, let me give him a few statistics which are authentic and completely contradict his claim. The unemployment figure for November 1982 was 170,000; in February 1984 it was 216,000, an increase of approximately 26 per cent. Within that figure the number for those under 25 in November 1982 was 50,000 and in February 1984 it was 68,000. We have to add to this at least 20,000 additional young people who will join the workforce by the end of this June when examinations will have ended. The statistical figures do not include announced closures such as Ford Motor Company, Youghal Carpet Yarns, Condons Concrete Works, Boland's Bakery tonight and others. The unemployment figure for Munster at the end of February is about 61,000 or an increase of 25 per cent in the past year. The figure for Cork county is 22,000, indicating a similar increase in the past year. Notified redundancy figures reached a record level for 1983 of almost 30,000, an increase of about 4,000 on the previous year. So much for easing the unemployment trend to which the Minister referred last night.

The aforementioned figures are accurate and are from official records. They belie the Minister's claim. In order to solve a problem one must first be aware of its existence and its proportions. The Government are obviously unaware of the seriousness of the problem and want to hear as little as possible about it. If it was not for our motion neither the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism nor indeed any of their colleagues would be debating unemployment in the House this week.

I must again stress that it is by far the most serious problem facing the country. Last week we failed to have the issue raised by Private Notice Question, we failed to get Government time to have it discussed and the only channel left open to us was its introduction in a Private Members' motion this week. A limited debate of this nature is far from adequate to deal with this important subject, a subject which obviously the Government would wish to sweep under the carpet and the problem that is of the greatest concern to all our people, not only the young school leavers but all the added unemployed who are desperately seeking work at the present time. What has happened to the oft mentioned National Development Corporation? Has that been put to bed? What has happened to the Government promises of the 1982 election campaign? The only thing we now hear is the promised report of the planning board, the establishment of task forces, the employment of review committees. All these are no substitute for the creation of jobs and they are no substitute for establishing a climate where enterprise can flourish.

The recent lay-off and short time working at Jacobs Biscuits has gone unnoticed by the Government and would not have been raised in the House without the efforts of my party colleagues last week. Surely this is the area where patriotism can play such a major part and where the Government should be out front leading a massive Buy Irish campaign, promoting the sale of Irish biscuits before foreign brands. Greater encouragement must be given to small business enterprise, more venture capital must be made available, greater risk-taking must be encouraged and red tape must be cut. The co-ordinating role is more necessary than ever before.

Let me cite some recent cases where some high ESB charges can create difficulties in the creation of small new industry. The Government have an obligation to encourage greater co-ordination but they seem to step aside and concentrate on public relations exercises everytime unemployment is mentioned. The role of unemployment in the Cork region continues unabated and it is hard to believe the sincerity of the Taoiseach's sentiments recently in that city because of the continued apparent lack of interest by his Ministers in vital projects affecting that region. For a time there has not been a ferry link between Cork and the Welsh coast, a link which is vital to the economic life of the south-west region and is almost as traditional to Cork as the bells of Shandon. The efforts by ICL, Cork Harbour Commissioners, the authority responsible for the port of Swansea, Cork County Council and Cork Corporation have all been in vain because of the failure of the Minister for Communications to give certain guarantees that would have enabled the ferry to operate this summer. The number directly employed in the tourist industry in Cork and in Kerry is 2,000. The industry was worth £130 million to the region last year. The number of passengers carried by the ferry last year will now be lost to the region. The blow to the employment situation is enormous.

The uncertainty of the milk levy is placing more jobs in jeopardy and the neglect of the pig industry is severely hitting employment as well as agricultural incomes but yet the Government stand back and take no action. The Government came to power with a list of promises which they have blatantly ignored. They have completely reneged on their commitments to the young people and no diversionary tactics by the Taoiseach or his handlers will sway the people's minds away from this failure. Our people are entitled to the opportunity to work. The Government must give leadership and must restore confidence and create a better development climate. We demand that Fine Gael and Labour now put into action some of the proposals and promises we have been listening to for the past 18 months or, alternatively, step aside and hand over the reins of Government to somebody who will be concerned, to someone who would be interested in the future of the country.

I understand I was refused permission to raise on the adjournment the discontinuation of the Cork ferry because it was not regarded as being the responsibility of the Minister. I beg to differ. The responsibility rests fairly and squarely on the shoulders of Deputy Mitchell who several weeks ago spoke out of turn and was criticised publicly by the chief executive of Irish Continental Lines for intending to make the ferry dearer — again mismanagement by a Minister. He met representatives from Cork city and county to see what could be done to ensure that the ferry would operate. The guarantees forthcoming were inadequate to allow the company to proceed with this link. It is a disaster for the region and the Minister should be asked to resign.

In Cork recently the Taoiseach indicated that his Government had a commitment to the region. In the last 15 months there has not been any commitment. One would have thought, four weeks after his statements in Cork, that there might be a different attitude but Deputy Mitchell has just stood back. What efforts has the Minister for Foreign Affairs, a Minister from Cork who promised so much from these benches, made to save the ferry link? What has he done about his promise to visit Detroit to stop Fords leaving Cork? Does the Minister who is present in the House remember his comment that night on television when we appeared together? He said his Government would ensure that Fords would not walk away from Ireland. What progress has he or the Government made to ensure that Fords do not walk away from Cork?

It is timely that we should have this debate on unemployment. It gives an opportunity to reflect on the conclusions of the ESRI publication on employment and unemployment policy in Ireland and for a political input to be made to the debate before the National Planning Board produce their publication. I was interested in Deputy Fitzgerald describing his efforts to have a debate of this kind. It would be useful if we could have some discussion, perhaps not of a public nature, between Opposition and Government about how best to handle the report of the National Planning Board. They will produce a report which will not reflect Government policy but rather their considered view about the economy. It is important that people of varied political persuasions should be in a position to contribute to a discussion on how the challenge this information presents to politicians can best be met.

The solution to the unemployment problem depends on how well we can answer the following question: are the goods and services which the Irish work force have to offer on the world market more up to date, efficient and less expensive than those offered by our competitors? Unless we can answer "yes" to that question we will not solve the unemployment probelm. If we believe we can create the conditions in which we can answer "yes" we will solve the problem.

With all due respect, that is not the real question.

The nature of work and what is demanded in the international market has changed considerably in recent years. The traditional attitudes people had as to what constituted a job are no longer relevant. Twenty years ago is was possible for people without any skills to obtain employment but as a result of the advance in technology such work can now be done by mechanical means or by the new information technology equipment which is replacing much of the traditional repetitive clerical work. Unless people have skills and a high standard of education they have no chance of obtaining employment in the foreseeable future.

What are the Government doing about that? There is no use just talking.

People with skills are not able to produce work of a standard which can compete with what can be produced elsewhere.

Everyone knows that.

This is a matter of serious concern. The greatest social injustice that exists in our society which all parties should consider is that 25 per cent of the young people who leave school in Ireland do so without any formal qualification. That was the figure in 1982 and I do not think it has changed since then.

Tell us what the Government will do.

The Minister should be allowed to speak. It is impossible to have a debate and not let people speak.

Everyone knows what the Minister is talking about. Will he tell us what the Government will do?

Yes, if the Deputy keeps quiet and lets me speak.

Yes, if the Deputy testy.

It is a serious social injustice that so many people leave school without a formal qualification of any kind. It is because of that that the Government have given such priority to the production of an action plan for education. We recognise that the first step towards full employment is that people must have the necessary qualifictions. The statistical information produced by every reputable research institute which examined the problem of unemployment has shown that the more educational qualifications one has the better one's chances of obtaining employment. Rather than scoring points off one another in the House as some people are tempted to do tonight — I am surprised at the person in question——

I am still waiting to hear.

The first piece of advice we would give to young people who wish to solve the problem of unemployment which faces them is that it is essential they get the most up-to-date education they can to enable them to compete efficiently in what is an increasingly competitive and knowledge-intensive job market. They should not leave school until they have achieved what they believe is the maximum of their educational capacity. If they left school earlier than they ought to, they should try to obtain some further education on a part-time basis. It is through education and achieving a better standard of competence in the work force that people will have a better opportunity of obtaining employment.

In the modern world no-one owes anyone a living. No other country owes Ireland a living. The Government do not owe any individual a living. The only way people can make a living is if they can sell what they can do to someone who is prepared to pay for it. The only way we can ensure that people are in that position is if they have adequate education. The ESRI rightly pointed out that extending full-time education and raising the school leaving age to 16 rather than 15 is not sufficient to solve the problem. We must look at opportunities for further part-time and second chance education. We must use schools more intensively to allow adults to obtain a better standard of education if they did not achieve it while in school and provide educational opportunities for the unemployed.

The most constructive thing the unemployed could do with their time is improve their educational qualifications. If they do that they have a much better chance of getting a job rather than sitting around waiting for a job in the previous type of activity in which they were engaged to re-emerge which it is unlikely to do in the present rapidly changing type of technological competition in which we are engaged.

We have many advantages in this regard. We have a younger and, generally speaking, more educated population than our competitors. That is why we have obtained more of the United States investment than other competitive countries in Europe. I had the pleasure of meeting a number of United States executives in the major electronic firms in California recently. I think all the major firms were represented at a dinner I was invited to address in what is locally known as "Silicon Valley" near San Fransisco. I was seeking to encourage those industrialists to locate their industries in Ireland. I told them that we had only a 10 per cent corporation profits tax, exceptionally generous capital allowances and a large European market available.

I said these were the most important reasons why those industrialists should locate in Ireland. The chairman of the proceedings, a leading figure in the world electronics industry, who has one of the most advanced industries we have in the this country, contradicted me. He said in blunt terms that I was wrong, that these were not the most important things the Irish had to offer to United States or other investors. He said the most important reason people from the electronics industry in the United States and people like him should invest in Ireland was that we had a more educated, younger and more adaptable workforce than any other country in which they might locate. If we can build on that strength by eliminating the situation wherein one-quarter of such a potentially valuable workforce leave school without any educational qualifications, then we are laying the foundation for overcoming our unemployment problem. We have many advantages to start with and if we can build on them we have the capacity for being a very strongly advancing country.

As far as industry and employment are concerned, it is important to recognise that we have been successful in many ways. Employment in manufacturing had been growing up to 1978. Employment in manufacturing reached its peak in the United States in the early fifties and in Japan in the seventies, but has been declining ever since. We have continued to grow in manufacturing output and employment, but unfortunately what is happening is that manufacturing alone is not capable of providing all the jobs. These new jobs are coming in the services sector. If we are to survive, whether it be in services or manufacturing, we must be prepared to adopt new technology readily.

Many people are inclined to resist new technology because they see it as threatening jobs but the choice is not really between new technology and protecting existing jobs. The choice is really between adopting new technology and at least keeping some of the jobs we now have or losing them all by failing to adopt new technology and allowing competitors to take our markets from us. Unfortunately, Irish companies are slow to do their own research and development. They tend to rely to an undue extent on State agencies to do the work for them. We have had the remarkable situation where trade unions have resisted the introduction of new technology and demanded payments for its introduction. The attitude should have been the opposite because any new technology guarantees their jobs much longer than would be the case if technology were not introduced. We must have a much more positive attitude to this matter. I have taken action to deal with this matter already.

I have reorganised the National Board for Science and Technology to give them a much more industry-orientated approach. I have commissioned and received a report on the workings of the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards from the National Board for Science and Technology and will be making decisions on it in the near future with a view to using the technological resources available to help develop strong companies with their own autonomous research capacity rather than trying to do all the work in the State sector.

We should have a system of grants for firms to acquire technology abroad. We do not always have to do the most original seminal research work in this country; that is done in other countries. If we do what other countries have done, such as Japan, and shop around and obtain the best in new technology and apply it in our firms and be ahead of the competition in applying rather than originating new technology, I believe we can do much better than we are doing. Unfortunately, what we have been doing as far as applying new technology is concerned is to bring in foreign companies. Generally speaking, Irish companies have not been going out to bring in the technology. By bringing in a foreign company one is engaging in what is often a more expensive way of importing technology than if we could get an Irish company to import the technology. That must be the approach we adopt in future.

I believe quality and efficiency in the market place are essential to the protection of jobs, but unfortunately absenteeism from work is still a major reason why we do not have the quality of goods we should have. People who are not always on the job will not produce quality goods which will win orders abroad. Delivery times will not be met if a significant portion of the workforce do not turn up every day on time. In the last six to eight months on day long trips I visited industrial firms in about six counties. In all cases I asked the firms about their absenteeism record. I was alarmed by what I heard. I heard that absenteeism rates were as high as 30 per cent in some firms and in many others in the 10 per cent to 15 per cent range. People say they are worried about employment, but if they do not turn up for work they are calling into question their concern about such matters. Irish management could do a great deal more than they are doing to improve the situation as regards absenteeism. I have decided that all firms looking for assistance from any of the State agencies under my aegis will be asked to give information about their absenteeism record because there is no point pouring money into firms to protect jobs if people are not prepared to work full-time on a five-day basis.

I have also commissioned a report, which I expect to receive very soon, from a group of Ministers of State, chaired by the Minister of State at the Department of Industry, Deputy Collins, into the whole question of absenteeism. I believe we can do a great deal to improve the quality of Irish goods in the market place. The Irish Quality Control Association have shown that dramatic gains could be made if Irish firms has well established quality control procedures. They estimate that over £245 million is lost each year by Irish industry because of insufficient attention to the application to quality control systems and methods. We cannot afford to be losing that type of money, basically because of management failure to apply proper quality control systems. However, our success in beating the unemployment problem depends greatly on our ability to market our goods abroad effectively. For example, Baileys Irish Cream and some of the other Irish cream liqueurs, have been a remarkable success in Irish-based markets' but we should not forget that in order for Baileys Irish Cream to obtain this major market share they had to spend millions of pounds all over the world, particularly the United States, developing their brand image. It was not enough to produce a very good product; that resources had to step. The bulk of their resources had to be devoted to marketing. It must be recognised that marketing is the riskiest of all investments an industry can make.

If a firm invests in plant and machinery and then goes bust, at least they have the plant and machinery to sell in order to set against their debt. If they acquire technology abroad, a patent or something like that, and they go bust trying to apply it, at least they have the patent right to sell to someone else. It has some asset to show. If a firm invest in marketing and it fails they have nothing to show for the effort, nothing to sell to help defray debts incurred. That is why marketing is the riskiest of all investments and it should probably attract the greatest degree of assistance from public funds to enable it to be applied in the interests of Irish industry and jobs.

Since last December I have had responsibility for CTT and the marketing side of Irish industry and I intend to devote special attention to further resources for developing marketing. Ultimately the bulk of marketing expenditure must be met by firms themselves out of profits and they must be allowed to make adequate profits if they are to invest in marketing. Unfortunately there is a misunderstanding of the functions of profits. It derives from the fact that profits in Irish industry are enjoyed only by a few. It is only the shareholders of a company and some of the directors who happen also to be shareholders who share in the profits of that company if it succeeds. Generally speaking the workforce do not share in them. If the workforce are doing a type of work which is governed by a rate for the job throughout an entire industry they get the same wage, regardless of whether the firm in which they are working makes a profit. That does not make sense. Surely workers should have an incentive to increase the profitability of their industry so that it can invest in marketing, expand and employ more people and ultimately increase their income.

That is why I have been strongly urging the idea of introducing profit-sharing schemes so that there would be a joint interest on the part of everyone in the firm in enhancing its profitability. We must get away from looking at two sides of industry contesting with one another, the wage side and the profit side, and the question of how much should go to wages this year and how much to profits. That is a destructive conflict, not in the interests of the ultimate growth of an industry, the creation of more employment and better incomes for the people involved. If wages could be based more on profit-sharing and less on the basis of a rate for the job regardless of whether a firm is doing well, we would have a more expanding industry, more jobs, higher wages and a better income all round.

This is why I have strongly urged the examination of the concept of profit-sharing. I have asked the National Economic and Social Council to examine it and I have also written to the Confederation of Irish Industry and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to promote the concept of profit-sharing. I have been instrumental in having introduced to the 1982 Finance Act and, hopefully, the 1984 Finance Bill major tax concessions to encourage firms to introduce profit-sharing schemes so that workers would have a stake in the industry in which they work and thus be prepared to allow profits to be made and marketing schemes to be undertaken, enabling markets to be won and new jobs to be created.

I would be interested to know why the Leader of the Opposition disagreed with my statement that the answer to the problem of unemployment will depend on whether we can offer on the world market goods which are more up to date, more efficient and less expensive than those offered by our competitors. That is the reality. If we are to do that we must be flexible and be prepared to change from one product to another. We must be first in the field if there is innovation, a new niche opening up in the market. An Irish firm must be there first to supply the product rather than a firm from another country. Flexibility is essential in this area and he have, of course, many advantages. We do not have an ageing industrial base such as they have in many European countries where vast quantities of capital are tied up in the steel, coal and shipbuilding industries and resources cannot be quickly changed into new forms. We have a relatively modern industry and a young industrial workforce who can quickly change from one form of activity to another in response to changes in market demands. The essence of success in the industrial field is our ability to change and to re-allocate resources from one activity to another.

There are a number of important rigidities in our economy which make us less flexible than we should be in responding to challenges and opportunities in the world market. It is very difficult and expensive for people to move from one job to another, yet if we want an industry which can quickly respond to new demands people should be capable of moving relatively easily from a job where there are fewer opportunities.

The Minister is in cloud cuckoo land.

The Minister, without interruption.

We are not as adaptable as we should be because pension rights, for instance, are not easily transferable between one employment and another. There is little mobility in the housing market. Many professions are difficult to enter and insist on qualifications which are artificial. They insist on keeping people out in order to maintain higher incomes for those involved. All of these inflexibilities add costs to our economy and prevent us from performing to the maximum possible extent.

We have been successful in recent times through changes in pay-related benefits in getting rid of many of the disincentives to work which existed in the past and which were a cause in part of unemployment. There are still certain situations, as pointed out in the recent NESC report, in which people can be better off not working than working, particularly in the case of large families. This is not a major problem but it should be eliminated. At all points in the income scale and in all family situations people should be better off working than not working.

We must have more investment if we are to have more employment. However, I do not believe, as seems to have been the view in the seventies, that investment alone will solve the problem. We have seen examples of what harm can be done at great cost by misdirected investment in the wrong sectors during the seventies and previously. Simply spending money on what is called "investment" does not solve anything unless the right choices are made.

The Government, in so far as investment by them is concerned, have introduced schemes and programmes to ensure that investment is properly directed. While Minister for Finance I commissioned a report on cost over-runs on major public construction projects which identified many of the reasons so many of the projects mentioned here by Deputy Fitzgerald and others have gone wrong. Investment is being promoted in a number of other ways.

Venture capital. The Government introduced in the budget a tax provision for encouraging private investment in new manufacturing ventures. This will channel a lot of the loose money which is available, savings of one kind or another which hitherto have been channelled into non-productive areas, into forms of investment that will create work in the productive sector rather than achieving short-term gains.

It is very important to develop the National Development Corporation as a new instrument for well-targeted and commercial State investment.

We thought you had forgotten about it.

The emphasis will be on projects that can give a clear financial return within a predefined period. The staff of the corporation should have tangible incentives to make the type of decision that will bring financial returns to the taxpayer. They must concentrate their efforts on developing new ideas rather than on the management of old ones. However, as I said earlier we cannot rely solely on manufacturing as a means of providing adequate jobs for our people. We must rely also on services. As I have pointed out elsewhere, the position is that services are already providing more jobs here. In the decade from 1971 to 1981 there was an increase of between 50 and 100 per cent in the number of people employed in financial services, in the professions, in recreation and in other such activities while during the same decade there was an increase of only 10 or 11 per cent in manufacturing. The major employment opportunities are in the services area. One-third of international trade now takes place in services of one kind or another and we must be able to capture a larger share of the services industry if we are to make progress.

An important service sector in the economy is that of tourism, the development of which has a major role to play in our industrial employment development. More jobs are created by each additional pound earned in tourism than in the case in other sectors of the economy. I hope that this year there will be a 10 per cent growth in US tourism to Ireland compared with last year. It is very important that the many modern industrial firms we have attracted here and who are earning substantial profits, while paying no more than 10 per cent in tax under the regime that will apply to the year 2,000, be encouraged to re-invest these profits here rather than elsewhere. In order to bring about that situation it is important that we have a low-cost industrial environment in which it makes sense for people to re-invest. These multinationals are being enticed by agencies from other countries to invest in these other places but we must ensure that our environment is competitive in that respect.

State enterprises can do much more than they are doing now to export services abroad. The ESB have shown a very good example in this field as have some of the hospitals. However, our education institutions could do more than they have been doing in this area. I should like to see a situation in which all Government Departments and agencies would be required as a matter of course to have programmes of exporting services abroad.

This debate concerns a very important subject. Undoubtedly, unemployment is the biggest single tragedy affecting the lives of our people. One would have hoped that in causing this debate to take place, the Government would have availed of the opportunity to place firmly on the record details of their plans and policies for dealing with what is a major tragedy. This evening, when 216,000 Irish people are unemployed, there are no real prospects in so far as the speeches emanating from the Government benches in this debate are concerned. This is a very sad indictment of the Government. It is a clear indication of their failure in the many months in which they have been in office to take advantage of the opportunities presented to them by their being in full control of the economy. An even sadder fact is that these thousands who are not being offered any prospects for the immediate future by reason of the lack of policy on the part of the Government are to be joined by thousands more in the months ahead.

The matter of greatest concern to us in Fianna Fáil is the continuing increase in unemployment, a trend that is evident from the regularly published statistics. Yet there is no indication from the Government of their having grasped the enormity of the problem. Huge numbers of young people will be leaving school and college shortly. They will all be seeking employment, but after 15 or 16 months in office it is a matter of great concern that the Government have not published a policy that would give hope to these young people and to all those confronted with the tragedy of unemployment. Because of this lack of initiative on the part of the Government there is a great danger of despair setting in among these people and that is a situation that could cause untold damage to the stability of our democrary.

In these circumstances it is the duty of the Opposition to remind the Government of their responsibility, to highlight for them the stark realities of the problems confronting the nation and to demand that some action be taken to deal with these problems. In proposing this motion we have given the Government the opportunity to put on the record their understanding of the difficulties and their proposals for dealing with them. Unfortunately, the contributions from the Ministers who have spoken during the debate have been dismal. Week after week we read the sad stories of closures and of increases in the unemployment figures. Another very serious situation is that many of those who have been made redundant are finding now that their pay-related benefit period is ending. Thousands more will find themselves in that position within a short time. This situation results in a massive drop in living standards. Parents of students are confronted with the realisation that their children will not be placed when their studies are completed.

It is interesting to hear the Minister advocate the necessity for young people to continue their studies but the sad fact is that we probably have the best educated unemployed people in the world because our people have been benefitting from the improvement in education facilities. Many thousands of them have qualified from the universities and from special courses followed in the regional technical colleges, but they are not being given any opportunity to put their knowledge and skills into practice. Therefore, it is very lame of the Minister to advocate further education as a solution to our future unemployment problems. There would not appear to be any strategy in what the Minister was saying. It may transpire that students will come to regard their studies as futile in that their expertise cannot be put into practice. If our youth lose faith in the ability of our democratic institutions to provide them with the opportunity to work and to develop and exploit their individual talents, they may not remain docile but may seek to influence events in an unorthodox way. The sacrifices of previous generations built this country. We have a duty to protect and support the progress which has been made. We should adopt the appropriate policies to restore growth in the economy.

I believe unemployment could reach 300,000 in a few short years unless firm Government action is taken to reverse the present trend. Unfortunately, high unemployment has always been associated with Coalition Governments. One only has to look back through the records to see the dismal failures of successive Coalition Governments in the area of job creation. Different ideologies at the Cabinet table create special problems. Decisions are delayed and the result is stagnation in our economy, with a rising crisis for those who are unable to obtain employment. We have not got the safety valve of emigration to allow these people to filter away. The problem is remaining on our doorstep, in our statistics, and increasing at an alarming rate.

The Government seem to be motivated primarily by the desire to keep Labour and Fine Gael together in the Cabinet. That seems to be the primary objective and primary motivation which keeps the Government together. The second motivation seems to be merely to keep Fianna Fáil out of office. Unfortunately, the economy, unemployment and the problems facing our people are taking a very poor third place in the priorities of this Government. If unemployment continues to rise to 300,000 as predicted on current Government policy, our credit-worthiness will suffer and eventually inability to borrow will inevitable lead to further massive job losses in the public sector, thus compounding the problem and bringing nearer the threat of undermining our society.

This country cannot afford to have Cabinet table indecision of Coalition partners delaying decision making on policies to deal with the urgent problems facing our people. Socialist type solutions will not provide answers. Already there is too much dependence on the public sector. There is a need to create a favourable climate for investment, a need to allow generous rewards for personal initiatives and effort. There is a need to allow generous rewards for capital investment, a need to encourage and reward excellence, a need to allow labour generous rewards for diligent work. There is a need for policies which would support and encourage private investment. There is a need to eliminate waste in the public and private sector.

We are hoping to see in policy from the Government specific indications as to how they would deal with these matters and bring forward the incentives which are so necessary. What we do not need is an abundance of bureaucratic control and theoretical socialist solutions. These have all failed in the past. This national development corporation is not the solution. If extra money is available, it should be invested in infrastructural services. Additional expenditure on roads and sewerage and water schemes and housing could be justified as a permanent benefit would result and the jobs effect would be immediate. A national development corporation has not worked anywhere else and will prove to be a costly failure if it is pursued here. The business expansion scheme has not worked in the United Kingdom and will not work here unless employees and management get an incentive in a reduction of tax or an option to get shares in the company.

The personal taxation level here is too high. Payment of higher wages is no longer an incentive because tax rates are so punitive. The marginal tax rate of 75 per cent plus the PRSI deduction is resulting in some workers bringing home less than 50 per cent of their gross pay. Our taxation levels are a disincentive to management and to workers. This 75 per cent marginal tax rate and PRSI deductions make Ireland a very unattractive place to live. Previous high tax bands were accompanied by well-known loopholes which have all now been effectively closed off. So far as income tax is concerned, Ireland has got very much out of line with other EEC countries in imposing marginal tax rates of 60 per cent or more on a relatively large number of taxpayers. The average and marginal tax rates on average industrial earnings are also much higher here than in neighbouring countries.

The National Economic and Social Council in a recent report recognised the intense sensitivity of the Irish public to the amount and incidence of taxes. They said that was very understandable in the light of the rise in the radio of tax revenue to gross domestic product from 33 per cent in 1979 to 41 per cent in 1983, a rise of over one-third in the space of four years. The only constant theme in Government statements on unemployment is their misplaced optimism that the situation with regard to employment was improving and that the only way forward was to keep wage increases to the minimum.

These views were repeated last night by the Minister for Finance when he said pay moderation would allow struggling firms to maintain employment. With unemployment at such a crisis level, it is pathetic to see the Government placing all their reliance on wage restraint, as if there were no other options available which could also contribute. To talk of merely maintaining present employment levels is defeatism. Too high a price has been paid already. It is time for the Government to adopt policies which would reverse the disastrous trends which are so clear in our economy at present.

The National Economic and Social Council in a recent report said that part of the lack of success in dealing with the problems facing the economy here has been due to the lack of a coherent, planned, national economic and social strategy. In my view, part of such a strategy should contain major alterations in present taxation policies. High levels of personal tax and low levels of tax on manufacturing profits have not brought the desired increase in job creation. Unless the individual is motivated properly, increased output will not result and real competitiveness will not be achieved. We have got our policy the wrong way around. It should be reversed to allow for low personal taxation and higher company tax on profits.

We had low unemployment when personal tax was low. We now have high unemployment while high personal tax obtains. Some workers bring home less than 50 per cent of their gross earnings. I have instances of workers bringing home 48 per cent of their gross pay, workers who are prepared to work hard. They are motivated to do their best, and they find that the State is taking over 50 per cent of their income in taxation. Surely that is the wrong way to tackle the problem. Surely we should be encouraging workers to work so that they can enjoy the fruits of their labour. But no. We want them to work hard, but we want the State to take the fruits of their labour. That just will not work.

There is no point in the Minister introducing a penalty on people who are absent from work through sickness or otherwise, and refusing to allocate grants to companies if the record of absenteeism is high. The Minister is adopting a negative approach. He should be positive. He should introduce incentives. He should allow the workers to enjoy the fruits of their labour. They will be motivated if they are allowed to enjoy their reward. Imaginative tax alterations would bring dramatic results and would lower unemployment. We have now reached the ridiculous situation where a £1 increase in a single worker's take home pay costs the employer £3.6p, with £2.6p going to the Exchequer and into the social insurance fund.

The Minister for Finance advocates wage restraint to improve competitiveness, while his own taxation policies are having the most serious adverse effects on our competitiveness through increasing the cost of employment, thus necessitating further wage increases to cushion the decline in employees' real disposal income as a result of the increased taxation which the Minister is imposing.

One of the greatest constraints on growth in output and employment is the penal taxation policy being pursued by the Government. If they reduce taxation, encourage initiative, encourage enterprise, encourage investment, encourage risk taking and reward hard work, they will get the result. That is the only way in which we can motivate our workers to increase production. Increased production will bring about increases in our sales. It will bring about new opportunities and expand employment. From some of his statements the Minister must agree with a great deal of what I am saying. I recognise that he has a difficulty in Cabinet to get some of his colleagues to agree to the introduction of the type of schemes I am suggesting. It is time we extolled the need to achieve profits. I support what the Minister said tonight in regard to profits. I wish that some of his colleagues in the Cabinet would make similar statements. If they did we might have some hope for the future. Policies should allow people retain the wealth they accumulate through their thrift, enterprise and hard work.

As Fianna Fáil spokesman on Environment I must express my party's alarm at the Government's neglect of the construction industry, the second biggest industry in the country. The crisis affecting that industry is a matter of serious concern to the nation, a personal tragedy for the thousands who have lost their jobs and the hundreds of building contractors who have been forced out of business. We have not heard one word from any Member on the Government side on those matters. The Irish construction industry was never in more serious trouble. In 1983 the gross output of the industry was estimated at £1,876 million. There was no growth in the industry last year compared to a decline of 1 per cent in 1982. When one recalls that there was an increase of 11 per cent in gross output in 1980 and a 21 per cent increase in 1981 it is easy to imagine the effect of the sudden reversal from growth to stagnation and of the continuing fall in output. When inflation is taken into account it can be seen that output, based on 1975 prices, has dropped from a growth of 4 per cent in 1981 to a reduction in the growth output of 12 per cent in 1982 and a reduction of 10 per cent in 1983.

Big fluctuations in output occur in the construction industry from time to time but what is now significant is that the current decline is sharper than at any time in the last 25 years. In the previous major recession of 1974-75 the drop in output was only half that experienced at present and hence the magnitude of the present position facing the industry can be realised. The share of the country's resources being devoted to construction activities had risen steadily from the early sixties. The percentage of gross domestic product going to construction was 9.4 in 1960; it reached a peak of 15.4 in 1979 but by 1983 it had fallen to 12.2 per cent. The reasons for this were the rapid development of the Irish economy and the necessity to improve infrastructure to meet the needs of a modern economy with a growing population. However, the current Government view seems to be that future growth of the construction industry will be kept close to the growth rate of the economy as a whole. The construction industry will, therefore, get a smaller share of the national cake as compared to the past position.

People in the industry believe they are not getting their fair share of the resources at this stage. Rather than being overfed the industry is on a Government enforced diet and the results are not very pleasant. Employment in the industry in April 1979 was 145,000 of which 101,000 were directly employed in contracting and the balance by building material manufacturers, merchants, plant hire firms and consultants. By April 1983 the numbers had fallen to 117,000, a drop of 28,000 or just 20 per cent and the decline persists. Particularly badly hit are the architectural, engineering and quantity surveying practices. Their respective institutes report a sharp cutback in work and a resultant increase in job losses. Estimates of total employment in private sector consultancy in 1982 was 8,000 falling to 6,000 in 1983 with a further decline to 5,000 in 1984. If and when an upturn occurs there will inevitably be some delay in getting major projects to the construction stage due to this rundown of the design sector.

To fully understand what is happening in the construction industry it is necessary to examine the individual contributions of the public and private sectors. Public sector investment is a direct decision of Government and private sector investment is largely determined by the success or otherwise of economic and monetary policies. The public sector has always played a major part in financing the construction industry. In 1979 the public expenditure on building and construction accounted for 55 per cent of the total expenditure. In 1982 and 1983 the percentage had risen to 75 per cent. The reverse of the coin is worth noting. The private sector share of expenditure fell from 45 per cent to 25 per cent.

There are three major elements in construction output, housing, which accounts for about 40 per cent, public funded demand on schools, hospitals, farm buildings and power plants, and private demand. Since 1979 housing has declined by nearly 20 per cent at constant prices. Output in the public sector has grown while there has been a dramatic decline in the private sector. In the two years between 1979 and 1981 output in the private sector has almost halved. This sector accounts for almost 90 per cent of the total drop in output although it only accounts for about 20 per cent of the total output. The current difficulties being experienced by the industry are mainly due to the lack of confidence by the private sector to undertake construction work which arises from a number of factors one of which is the world recession. Of course, that has now come to an end. The construction of advance factories has practically ceased and the picture I am painting in regard to construction is, unfortunately, a depressing one.

Many sectors of the industry feel, as a result of the long recession, a lack of confidence in the industry and in their own ability to survive. They cannot yet see the light at the end of the tunnel. There is a pessimistic view prevailing that the Government will not take any steps to halt the downward slide in the construction sector. Confidence, as the Minister is aware, is a frail ingredient and there is no doubt that the industry would survive although in what size and shape it is not clear. The responsibility lies with the Government. Indeed, we are constantly reminded by the Government that the health of the Irish economy is influenced by changes in the world economy. The worst recession since World War II has ended and the economies of the industrialised countries are starting to grow again led by the recovery of the United States. However, the decline continues at a very serious rate in the Irish construction industry. If further evidence is required of the continuing decline in output and employment in the construction industry one has only to consider the most recent statistics which show that cement sales in January and February of this year were down 12 per cent on the same months last year. Employment in the construction industry in January 1984 was 16 per cent down on January 1983. Compared to January 1982 employment is down 30 per cent.

The industrial analysis of the Live Register for 9 December 1983, published last week, shows that unemployment in the construction industry increased by 815 in the month of November to 42,000. It seems that 5,048 construction workers lost their jobs in 1983. The recent CIF-EEC survey of the construction industry of December 1983 shows that the decline in output in the industry is continuing at a disturbing rate. The surveys which have proved very reliable in the past also reflect employment trends under three main headings, civil engineering construction, residential building and nonresidential building. The summary of the survey is that the rate of decline in employment in the industry is expected to continue during the first quarter of 1984 at a similar level to that experienced during the last quarter of 1983 although there are indications that there may be a significant increase in the number of firms letting people go in civil engineering and non-residential building sectors.

What the construction industry needs most of all is confidence. First, they need confidence that the Government will continue to support and implement its published plans for public capital investment. Secondly, they need confidence that the Government will actively seek ways to promote private sector investment through the introduction of investment incentives. It was a shattering blow to the morale of the industry to see their worst fears confirmed in 1983 when the 1983 Public Capital Programme out-turn was published which showed that expenditure in 1983 was £142 million less than that provided for in the Estimates bearing in mind that the Government had already reduced the 1983 Public Capital Programme by £220 million on the levels detailed by Fine Gael and Labour in December 1982. That decision by the Government to withdraw £362 million from planned public capital investment in 1983 has, more than anything else, led to the present demoralised state of the construction industry.

It is clear that the present policy involving the highest rate of personal taxation levels in Europe, coupled with high levels of PRSI, levies, VAT, company and capital taxation are all resulting in a climate where personal initiative is being discouraged at every level, resulting in a lack of opportunities and hopeless unemployment. There is one area where the depressed state of the economy has not deflated demand and that is in housing. The housing needs of our people are not being met and the crisis will worsen in the immediate future due to the age structure of our population. To meet current demands we need to construct 35,000 houses per year. The Government have set a target of 30,000 and then proceeded to provide finance for only 26,000. They built only 26,000 houses in their first year in office and it is doubtful if they will succeed in building that number in 1984.

The national need is for 35,000 and we are increasing the problem and postponing the achievement of the targets while people are left without homes. I estimate that there are more than 130,000 people waiting to be housed by local authorities at present. If we are only building 6,000 local authority dwellings we will only house 24,000 people approximately at an average of two children per family. The waiting list is getting longer each year and the Government should take some initiative to deal with that vast human problem. As far as housing our people is concerned too many have been condemned to put up with unfitness, overcrowding, involuntary sharing and homelessness. A net figure of 28,000 dwellings in 1981 were claimed to be unfit beyond repair. It will take 16 or 17 years to catch up with the repair of those houses according to the rate of progress of the policy of this Government. Even though there has been some improvement due to public and private expenditure in housing, it is also true that the disparity between the majority of the population and those in poor housing has worsened. There is a need for a major increase in new house completions and improvements and extensions to the existing housing stock. Present policies will not meet the urgent demand.

With some justification I can draw the attention of the Minister to successful efforts made in the past to bring about dramatic increases in the number of houses built. In the period 1970 to 1973 there was an increase from 13,000 houses to 25,000 houses. If it could be done in the past it can be done in the future. However, it was not done in the past without a major effort, without special initiatives being taken and incentives being introduced. If the Minister and the Government had the will they would set about relieving the nation of this great social need and ease the difficulties and hardship of those who have no homes.

It would be easy to achieve the housing targets if the Government had the will. It would also create employment for thousands of people who have the skills and who are idle and walking the streets. It is clear that unless the Government are prepared to introduce major changes in the taxation policies they have been following, to introduce initiatives that will encourage investment and allow people rewards for their efforts, that will extol excellence and create a climate for investment, very little can be done.

The Minister spoke in broad general terms, but what we need are specifics, We want an indication from the Government of the exact policies they propose to deal with the unemployment crisis that is affecting our people. There is despair among young people. There is a threat to democracy and to the continuation of the peaceful, happy environment in which families have been reared. The State will be under threat if the Government do not take action to provide employment for our people. The unemployment figure is slowly creeping up to the dramatic figure of 300,000 that I mentioned earlier but there is no evidence of any concern on the part of the Government. They are unnecessarily preoccupied with matters that are secondary to the national problem, feeding the newspapers with stories about phone tapping and phone bugging. Half of the Government are touring America at enormous expense, accompanied by enormous entourages of civil servants and others, at a time when the country is faced with the most serious unemployment crisis. The country is faced with a major recession that is deemed to be continuing despite the fact that the world recession is over. Unemployment figures in Europe are below 10 per cent but here they are at a level of 17 per cent. In the United States they are in a situation of near full employment. The Minister spoke about the inability of the Government to provide jobs for all our people. I do not accept that policy of despair. The people want some hope, not despair from this Government.

I do not accept that this Government have ignored or failed to take positive action on the critical problem of unemployment. I could list the initiatives taken but I do not have time this evening. There is the enterprise allowance scheme, the venture capital programme and the increase in the Vote for the Minister for Labour and many others.

The unemployment figures are harrowing, and there is not a Deputy in this House who is not concerned. It behoves all of us to be constructive and helpful and not continue in the vein we heard tonight and last night. Party bickering or political points scoring is of no interest to those walking the streets looking for gainful employment. Is it any wonder this House is becoming increasingly irrelevant to our people and is viewed with increasing cynicism and scepticism, particularly by the young people? Look at the issues that have dominated this House for the past month or so, orchestrated by the Opposition benches.

What about Springs of Wexford?

This Government are committed to decreasing our inflation rate. The Taoiseach estimated the figure would be 5 per cent by the end of this year. If we do not get our inflation rate down, and thereby our interest rates, and make our products more competitive in the marketplace we will not succeed.

Springs of Wexford have been mentioned today. Wexford is but an example of the difficult problem facing the Government. All of us can do more. If we reduce our inflation rate it will be the key to the future employment position and the resolution of the problem. If our inflation rate is not below the rate of our trading partners we will be uncompetitive.

I have no doubt that everyone of us here, and all our agencies, can do more. The IDA, Fóir Teoranta, Córas Tráchtála and all the agencies involved could do more. If we sorted out the variable premium problem which has most of our meat factories on a two- and three-day week we could do more. Obviously we are still indulging in the luxury of irresponsible Opposition. It is a shame for the country that this is what is offered by the Opposition benches. This Government have tackled constructively the critical problem of unemployment.

The Deputy has said that the IDA and other agencies could do more——

I said we could all do more.

Yes, they could do more if the Government allowed them. The problem is that the policy of this Government is to ensure that they do not do any more to try to solve the problem of unemployment. Fianna Fáil do not accept in a nation of 4,500,000 people, where vast resources have been put into educating during the years, it is not possible for everyone who is willing and able to work to do so. If we find it acceptable that 250,000 people should be condemned to unemployment, this will dictate the level of our performance in the creation of unemployment. For me, that sums up this Government's performance. They are prepared to accept as satisfactory the situation where 250,000 people are unemployed.

That is not so.

Therefore, the level of their performance is matched with that realisation. One of the main provisions in the budget was to accept that the number of people out of work will increase, and the Government provided several million pounds for that growth in unemployment. If the Government have adopted this defeatist attitude, what can any of the agencies do?

They also increased the Vote in the Department of Labour.

Last week the Minister, Deputy Bruton, said that his priority was the creation of a flexible and mobile workforce. That is a far cry from the positive action a man in his position should take. What is more alarming is that for many people, including myself, Deputy Bruton was the one member of the Cabinet who appeared to have the guts to do something about unemployment. If his priority is to get Irish workers to move from one town to the next to get employment, that will spell an end to the hopes of many people, particularly young people, of getting a job.

The Government are involved in a kite-flying exercise once more. We heard it from the Minister of Finance last night when he said that if there was a wage freeze this would achieve job creation. Do this Government think the unions are foolish enough to enter into such a bargain? Clearly the unions will not accept such kite-flying and we will end up as we did last year with wage increases in line with large increases in recent years.

The Government are not interested in taking the positive action that is necessary. I will give two examples. There was the recent indication from Córas Tráchtála that they have not sufficient resources. This shows how our priorities are seriously wrong. The decision of their chief executive, Seán Condon, to resign to go into export promotion in the private sector speaks volumes for the inadequacy of Government support in this vital area.

If the Government are not prepared to put resources into agencies like CTT how can we expect to create jobs? We recently heard Mr. Seán Condon speak openly about his desire to have another £2¾ million which is absolutely necessary so that CTT can do their job effectively. He gets the cold shoulder from people like the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism.

We see the great work being done by AnCO in their advisory training service and their assignment units to carry out management training on an in-company basis. This very useful exercise, in order to increase company performance, has been given the cold shoulder by the Government and AnCO are starved of the resources necessary to carry out that kind of work. We see the money paid by the hard-pressed taxpayers being given to Government Departments to replace Exchequer expenditure. Clearly, the Government have no commitment. We cannot see the Minister for Finance providing any encouragement to people on the dole.

The Taoiseach, the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism and the Minister for Finance never saw a hard day in their lives, they never saw the spectre of unemployment and clearly, they have no aptitude for the kind of mental problem that 100,000 young people are going through at this time. This is the kind of situation young people have to face now, but the Minister for Labour is prepared to be involved in the cynical exercise of spending a day on the dole. There is one clear message for the Government. Unless they are prepared to make a very significant change in their policies there is only one area we can move into, that is into increased militant tendency which, we have seen, has raised its ugly head so much recently.

The verdict on this debate must be that the Government stand condemned. The trouble is that the penalty will not be imposed on the culprits, the Government, but on the people who are suffering because of the lack of policies by the Government. When we put down this motion on the most important issue facing this House we hoped we would elicit some response from the Government, some positive proposals, some indications to our young people of where we are going and how we propose to get there so that we could all respond, as Deputy Doyle said, in a positive, cohesive way. The Government have reneged on that responsibility to the nation, particularly to the growing number of unemployed.

In putting down this motion we hoped for some prospect for the future. Deputy Doyle should read the record of this debate because she is exceptional in being the only Government Deputy who came in at any point and she will see it was this side of the House last night who put forward the proposals and that all we got from her side was a dreary analysis of the alleged success to date. There was not one idea.

The Deputy was not here for my contribution.

I want to refer to the Minister's contribution if what he has issued is a measure of his contribution. The Government have not proposed one concrete proposal in contrast to the number we proposed during this debate. They relied instead on a dreary recital of what they call achievements to date. An increase in unemployment of the order of about 40,000 since they came into office can hardly be described in any other terms but disastrous failure. This is compounded by the Government's attempt to distort that reality for, in the words of the Minister for Finance last night, an easing in the unemployment trend. Not even previous ineffective Coalitions abrogated their responsibility to the same extent.

Eighteen months after promising firm and decisive action to combat unemployment this inert Government can only wait for, in the words of the Minister for Finance last night, "the required response from the social partners." Who did the people elect to govern the country, the social partners or the people who now occupy the benches opposite?

I would now like to refer to what the Minister said this evening. It is in the script but I do not know if he delivered it. I can only mention two points. He said our ability to sell the work of Irish people abroad depends on how much we spend on marketing. I presume that is the Minister's view. I have heard him say it before. He said he is working on a number of proposals which could help the Irish marketing effort. He said State-aided schemes can certainly be of major assistance here. Would the Minister like to reconcile that with the fact that the allocation for CTT in money terms is 7 per cent up on last year but because of devaluation decided by the Government is, in effective terms, 9 per cent down on last year? Would the Minister like to reconcile that commitment to expenditure support for CTT with the fact that about 40 to 50 companies who are waiting to promote their products in the high technology area have to be told by CTT, the board under the Minister's responsibility, that they have nothing to offer them because they have not the funds to reach the markets the Minister says he is concerned about? The Minister knows that the high technology Fianna Fáil brought into the country cannot now reach the markets because of lack of adequate support.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy is ignoring the facts.

The second point is that not just 18 months ago but two and a half years ago we heard about the National Development Corporation. We heard about it again this evening from the Minister. What had he to say about it? He said this body will be designed to create a new instrument for a well-targeted and commercial State investment. He also said that the emphasis will be on projects that can give a clear financial return within a predefined period. Two years after it was proposed it will be designed to do (a) or (b) and we are told they must concentrate their efforts on developments and new ideas. We are told by the Minister he is working on proposals for this body with this criteria in mind. Two years after they announced the launching of it they are working on proposals.

(Interruptions.)

We have to recognise some realities. We need policies to promote employment because of the growth of our labour force. They are of primary importance but the Government have discouraged investment and have penalised initiative in an unremitting onslaught on incentive and enterprise. The Irish are going abroad to invest and the others will not come here anymore. The evidence is so clear the Government can ignore it if they wish at their peril. Our total State foreign indebtedness last year rose by £2,000 million, our investment dropped by 23 per cent — the lowest in 16 years — and our balance of payments when revised at the end of the year will show that it has dropped considerably and our growth will be about zero in 1985. Surely all these facts demand action from a Government and not constant analysis. Even the Thatcherite Government in Britain yesterday were able to give tax allowances to promote incentive but this Government continue to indulge in their self-righteous fantasy that they will bring the public finances into order while ignoring that public order, as distinct from financial order, is at risk of being totally undermined.

This is irresponsible talk.

It is not reasonable that if the Government are the culprits the people should be the ones subject to the punishment. It is time the Government brought forward proposals instead of the dreary analysis, inertia and hopelessness which they have spread throughout the land. We regret that our proposal did not elicit one response from the Government. Hopefully the people will not be too downhearted.

Look at the Labour benches.

It has been a sad debate but it will make the people aware of the hopelessness of the Government.

Of how irrelevant the Opposition are.

Springs of Wexford.

That is a fascist statement.

(Interruptions.)

All we have had are facile interruptions.

Histrionics. You were tested and found wanting.

Order, please.

There are constant interruptions from the Government but the Chair continued to look at this side.

I suggest to Deputies that the work "fascist" is a word that should not be in the vocabulary of the House.

What about the Labour Deputies?

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl 69.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • (Limerick West)
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East)
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies B. Ahern and V. Brady; Níl, Deputies Barrett (Dún Laoghaire) and McLoughlin.
Question declared lost.
Barr
Roinn