Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Jun 1984

Vol. 352 No. 3

Estimates, 1984. - Vote 39: Labour (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £109,986,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1984, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Labour, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

I should like to start by attempting to review the activities which the Department of Labour engage upon. The key issue is employment. No one can be under any illusion about the scale and complexity of the problems which we must tackle to bring about an improved labour market situation.

Much has been achieved over the past 18 months to correct the imbalances in our national finances and to bring about a return to growth in our economy. It is a matter of record that the economy and the employment situation, however unhappy we are with it, has been performing somewhat better than official forecasts predicted even a few months ago. In the first five months of this year, unemployment has remained stable and has fallen in two months.

The substantial rise in unemployment in 1984 which was forecast earlier this year, and used in the planning board's report is overly pessimistic. It now seems that the increase in unemployment during this year will not be of the magnitude predicted by these forecasts.

Similarly, our data on industrial output may have been interpreted more pessimistically than the situation warrants. When industrial output expanded rapidly last year several commentators observed, correctly, that the increase was made possible by a good performance in two sectors, electronics and chemicals. The figures for March, 1984, however which show an increase in output of 15 per cent over March, 1983, also indicate that there is stronger performance over a wider range of sectors.

The point which I want to emphasise from these facts is that the substantial difficulties which we face will not be overcome by heightening a sense of crisis, however natural may be the impatience of those who feel that progress is so slow as to be imperceptible or the caution of those who feel that great principles and vital interests are at stake. Last year's economic forecasts should not and will not be the basis for measures hastily conceived, inadequately thought out and improperly co-ordinated. There is no magic panacea which will eliminate our unemployment problem overnight. There is scope, however, for the development of strategies and initiatives in the manpower policy area for which I have responsibility: to review present strategies, build on existing initiatives and develop new programmes to complement mainstream job creation policies in manufacturing and services.

It was with this in mind that I initiated a review of manpower policy in my Department at the beginning of this year. That initiative has been broadly welcomed by the various manpower agencies operating under my aegis. It is clear that a comprehensive statement on manpower policy is long overdue. A White Paper on Manpower Policy was last published in 1965. The White Paper which I intend to publish later this year will chart the course of manpower policy for the remainder of the eighties and into the nineties.

I anticipate that the White Paper, will first of all address the objectives which we should set for ourselves in the coming years distinguishing between activities designed to contribute to the overall objective of economic and social development and those geared towards the objective of catering for less advantaged groups among the labour force. The paper also will explore the need to integrate the policy instruments available to the Department of Labour with those required for the broader treatment of manpower policy.

In preliminary discussions with the Manpower Consultative Committee which are representative of all the interests involved, including trade unions and employers' organisations, other issues such as training, management development, employment services, transition from school to work and existing schemes have also been identified as warranting treatment.

A second area which needs to be addressed is the relationship between the manpower agencies and other public bodies, or speaking more generally, the relationship between manpower policy and other policies. There is a need for a more integrated approach to the adoption of various policies. Manpower issues should be taken into account in the formulation of other policies. While this is obvious in relation to the development of industrial strategies it is equally valid in regard to education. With increasing emphasis on the transition from school to work a considerable debate has arisen as to where formal academic education ends and where specific preparation for entry to the labour market begins. Concern has been expressed about the duplication and overlap of activities in this area. The outcome of the examination of these concerns by the Minister of State at the Departments of Labour and Education, which will be available shortly, should effectively clarify the situation and lead to a greater measure of understanding between the manpower and education authorities.

The administrative arrangements covering the relationship between the Department of Labour and their agencies are of crucial importance in the context of a coherent manpower policy. The Department must, and will, be the central policy-making body responsible for overall policy formulation and for the setting of objectives for the various agencies. The co-ordination issue will, I am sure, figure largely in the forthcoming debate on the report of the Oireachtas Public Expenditure Committee's proposals to establish a centralised recruitment and training agency. There is one point, however, which I feel it is important to highlight in this context — that the degree of commonality of purpose, of co-operation with one another and of achievement between the various agencies is far greater than the frictions and divisions of opinion so often erroneously portrayed as existing between them.

Manpower policy programmes generally must aim to equitably meet the needs and requirements of all groups in the labour market. There are groups however among the unemployed who are increasingly experiencing grave difficulties in securing initial entry to the labour force, or who have never gained a proper foothold in the market or, as in the case of older experienced workers, are enduring structural unemployment because of the displacement of skills and the general effects of the recession on traditional established industries.

Regardless of what upturn in the economy or expansion of employment opportunities takes place, the problems of these groups in the labour market will not be easily resolved. This is particularly true of the longer-term unemployed in all age groups, but is especially pointed in relation to the needs of older unemployed workers. This forms a third area of major concern in the development of manpower policy.

An increased and more dynamic effort to bring training and manpower services to the over-25's and to those who have not benefited from existing programmes will be required in the future. The extent to which existing programmes should be modified and new programmes developed to assist the long-term unemployed and the structurally unemployed is also being considered and will form the basis of radical new initiatives over the coming months.

In 1984 a very conscious effort is being made to provide a more balanced range of training services to employers and job-seekers. Increased funding available to AnCO is being directed at major expansion of a number of programmes targeted at priority clients.

AnCO's Exchequer provision in 1984 of £46,889,000, including youth levy funding, is estimated to accommodate a significant increased throughput of trainees.

AnCO courses are open to all persons aged 16 years and over who have left school and are unemployed. Courses vary in duration and aim to equip participants with specific skills which will help to improve their job prospects. Most courses are provided at AnCO training centres and mobile training units. Almost 15,000 people will be trained on adult training courses in AnCO centres, in 1984, an 11 per cent increase on 1983 training levels. The training centres are also responsible for running the Community Youth Training Programme (CYTP) involving young unemployed people acquiring training and work experience on local community type projects. In 1984, over 5,000 persons will be trained under CYTP, 10 per cent more than last year.

This year almost 3,000 trainees will pursue AnCO's Workshop Training Programme — an increase of 50 per cent over the numbers catered for in 1983. This programme is targeted at the needs of young unemployed from particular disadvantaged backgrounds. This programme operates mainly in the Dublin inner city and elsewhere in the country for various groups of travelling people.

In responding to the training needs of the unemployed AnCO is fortunate in being able to broaden the range of its courses by using up spare training capacity available in the public and private sectors and by engaging external training agents to conduct certain courses under contract. External training courses are aimed at unemployed adults to meet current and future skill shortages, to enhance the employment prospects of participants, to encourage equal opportunities and to facilitate job creation. External training programmes are expected to train about 13,000 people in 1984.

The existence of such a flexible training capacity has enabled AnCO to develop a variety of special training programmes. For example, the needs of communities remote from AnCO's training centre facilities are also being addressed by the further development of the LINC Programme launched in 1983 to enhance employment creation potential in target areas through training. This programme's emphasis on effective linking of local State services and community interests is a particularly welcome development providing evidence of greater co-ordination efforts by manpower, education and industrial agencies.

Other special programmes for the unemployed are targeted at development of job creation and entrepreneurial skills and at promotion of equality of opportunities. AnCO is also looking into the area of training for co-operative development. AnCO is of course continuing to provide for and oversee apprenticeship training. In particular, AnCO along with industry seeks to ensure that adequate numbers are being trained to meet projected future skilled manpower needs. In recent years AnCO have also had to cater for the needs of young apprentices being made redundant. Nearly 2,600 of these were helped by AnCO in 1983 and this policy of helping unemployed apprentices to continue their training is being maintained.

AnCO's continued exposure to new technology developments in Irish industry is also enhancing its capacity to provide the unemployed with new skills on demand and indeed has put it in a position to adopt new approaches to training by use of this technology. The training needs of entrepreneurs and managers of small businesses have also benefited from AnCO initiatives in this area in the past year and these developments will be built upon in the coming months in response to growing demands.

Job creation is increasingly attracting the interest and involvement of communities and of voluntary and youth organisations. The Youth Employment Agency regards the development of such community-based employment initiatives as a key objective both in creating economically sustainable employment and in raising the general level of enterprise among young people. The agency has adopted a policy of promoting the development of local community responses to employment creation; this means pursuing additional creativity and resources at local level where unemployment and its consequences are most visible and the commitment to action is often highest. This policy seeks to provide a means by which people can explore new areas of work whether in the production of goods or services, and to provide practical advice, support and assistance to community groups investigating or undertaking employment initiatives.

The agency's Community and Youth Enterprise Programme introduced in July 1983 represents an approach through which practical support can be given to community groups involved in developing job-creation projects. The underlying feature of this programme is to help communities to help themselves by providing assistance by way of advice, planning grants, funding of enterprise workers and linkages into the programmes and grant-aid schemes of other State and commercial agencies. The programme is complementary to the enterprise development programmes available from other bodies, such as the IDA, SFADCo, Údarás na Gaeltachta and county development teams. In addition the programme provides for direct financial aid for groups at the point of "start up" specifically to contribute towards capital requirements and project management costs for up to 12 months. The agency is giving priority in the current year to the development and expansion of this programme so as to further encourage and support community employment initiatives.

Experience to date has shown that the nurturing of community enterprise is even more complex than had been originally envisaged. Apart from the obvious problems of practical business expertise which such community groups need, the programme has raised the broader question of the need for support of basic community development. As a result, the agency is currently assessing the extent to which it should become involved in basic community development activity which is not necessarily linked to employment-related activities. The community and youth enterprise programme is to be warmly welcomed, not only as a major and positive initiative in employment creation, but also as a significant recognition of the dynamic and rightful place of the community in influencing and responding to local conditions.

Community initiatives receive further direct support through training and temporary employment schemes such as AnCO's community youth training programme, community training workshops and the grant scheme for youth employment. Each scheme is community-orientated with participants gaining training or temporary employment on specific community projects put forward by community organisations, church bodies, noncommercial groups etc.

Another agency initiative which is motivated as much by the development of community-based employment initiatives as it is by the co-ordination of State programmes at the local level is also worth describing. The problem facing large organisations in relation to their environments has been identified as centering on the difficult process of gathering and disseminating `outside' information. Clearly, access to accurate and detailed information is essential to the development of good policy. Yet, large organisations such as centralised Government agencies, do not always have easy access to information from diverse local sources; nor indeed is this altogether feasible in the development of national policies. However, proposals by the Youth Employment Agency for the creation of local intermediary agencies to be known as Community Training and Employment Consortia (COMTECs) represent a dynamic yet balanced response to this problem; while these new local agencies will operate within national policy guidelines they will allow for youth training and employment programmes to be fully developed and guided by informed local knowledge and expertise. Broadly covering local authority administrative areas the function of COMTECs will be to identify the specific needs and opportunities of their own local areas and to translate these into coherent training and employment programmes for young people. A COMTEC will seek to ensure that the programme funded from the youth employment levy directly address the needs of young people in the local labour market. A basic objective of each COMTEC will also be to pursue co-ordination of the youth training and employment programmes at local level.

Typically a COMTEC will comprise representatives of major local community interests, manpower agencies, such as NMS, AnCO, CERT Ltd., educational interests and other relevant public agencies. I intend to submit proposals for the launching of COMTECs on a pilot basis for Government approval in the near future.

Before concluding this section of my review of manpower and employment matters I want to mention briefly a number of points relating to the main schemes operated by the Department of Labour.

A number of specific initiatives which will stimulate increases in employment creation and economic activity at community level are being considered by the Government at the present time. The highly successful enterprise allowance scheme which involves a relaxation of social welfare restrictions and provides unemployed people who wish to set up their own business with the possibility of securing initial capital and a weekly allowance was relaunched from its pilot basis by the Government in January this year. In each of the last few weeks the scheme has assisted about 140 recipients of unemployment benefit or assistance to go into business for themselves. There are 2,000 participants in the scheme already and three-quarters of them are over 25 years of age. Therefore, the imbalance which many people felt existed in favour of young people is, to a certain extent, being redressed.

Another innovation built into this scheme is the capitalisation of pay-related benefit which will for the first time provide access to the Social Insurance Fund for lump sums to be used as venture capital. Regulations are being prepared to give effect to this aspect of the scheme and they will come into force in a short time. I would add for the information of the House that 60 per cent of the persons who have been assisted under the scheme did not progress beyond intermediate or group certificate standard of education and 68 per cent had been unemployed for six months or more. Sixty-three per cent of participants had been getting more than £50 per week in unemployment payments which is more than they would qualify for under the EAS. Estimates of the net effect of Exchequer costs range from a small saving to about break-even depending on the eventual mix of married to single participants and the amount of benefit to which they are still entitled when they join the scheme. In view of the success of this scheme, it will be necessary for me to move a Supplementary Estimate later.

I have also looked at the employment incentive scheme, which since 1977 has assisted 32,000 unemployed people to secure employment. I have decided to extend the scheme to all activities with the exception of those of the public sector, banking, insurance, building societies and similar financial activities. The conditions that an employer had to be 12 months in business before applying has been revoked.

The premium structure has been simplified and improved. A standard premium of £30 per week for 24 weeks will apply. This represents an improvement of £5 per week for those under 20. More important, I have provided a very attractive incentive for the recruitment of the older, long-term unemployed. I have increased the premium to £60 per week for persons over 25 who have been 12 months on the live register in the period immediately preceding recruitment.

The stability of jobs assisted by the scheme has also been examined and I have considered it necessary to emphasise this in the conditions attaching to the new scheme. There was some evidence to suggest that the scheme was benefiting employers who were recruiting on a temporary basis only. Accordingly, the new scheme provides that payments will not be made where jobs do not survive for 24 weeks. As a corollary to this condition I have introduced, instead of four-weekly payments as before, a once-off payment under the scheme after it has been demonstrated that the job has survived for 24 weeks.

I should, perhaps, mention that this once off payment has the effect of deferring payments under the scheme. The £3 million provided for the scheme will not be utilised in full in 1984 and the saving will be a contribution towards the cost of the Supplementary Estimate for my Department.

Finally, I have confined recruitments under the scheme to two per employer. The research undertaken on the scheme suggested that windfall gains were being received by the larger employers in respect of recruitments which would have taken place irrespective of the incentives of the scheme. These recruitments were mainly in the manufacturing and construction sectors where additional jobs were largely dictated by contracts on-stream. In effect, the employment incentive scheme is now being targeted at the smaller employers where there is a greater prospect at the present time of creating jobs. The scheme, for example, can be availed of by those persons starting off enterprises under the enterprise allowance scheme.

I would like to refer briefly to one aspect of the work experience programme, the concerns which have been expressed about the displacement effects and the possible exploitation of the young persons who participate. In order to deal with both points, I have arranged for the introduction of a number of safeguards. In particular, I am arranging for the introduction of a participants' "charter" under which each young person will be given, before starting a programme, a clear statement of the status of a work experience participant, what conditions apply and details of the actual programme of activities which has been agreed by the placement officer with the sponsoring employer. I am also arranging that there will be access by trade unions to information regarding the distribution of placements under the programme.

There will not be many takers for that.

Employers will have nothing to worry about. Many of the measures which I have described are for the benefit of young persons. I would like at this stage to refer briefly to one EEC initiative which has a particular relevance for this category. An EEC Council resolution of 11 July 1983, on vocational training which incorporates a commitment by member states to provide a "social guarantee" of vocational preparation and training for young people represents a further significant development in manpower policy for young people. While it applies to young people generally, the guarantee is directed especially at young people leaving compulsory education and emphasises the need for a period of vocational training on leaving the educational system and subsequently for continued training to enable the development of skills and the improvement of qualifications.

In March 1984, I assigned responsibility for the co-ordination of measures to meet the guarantee commitment to the Youth Employment Agency. In adopting the social guarantee into their policy objectives, I asked the agency to apply the guarantee policy at two levels—

(i) to school leavers at or before inter/group certificate level as a matter of priority

(ii) to other young people unemployed and in need of qualifications to secure employment.

A draft plan for the implementation of the guarantee has now been prepared and the agency propose to have consultations on this draft with relevant State agencies.

On their establishment nearly 20 years ago, the Department of Labour were assigned responsibility for the administration of the worker protection legislation existing at the time. Much of this legislation dated back to the thirties and it certainly could not be represented as a comprehensive programme aimed at protecting workers in their places of employment. There were some measures governing the conditions of employment of industrial workers and those employed in shops and hotels but, by and large, workers depended for their conditions of employment on their contracts of employment with employers and the outcome of collective bargaining conducted by their unions. They ploughed their own furrow and fended as best they could for themselves with minimal support from the State in relation to their terms and conditions of employment.

The late sixties and the seventies saw a surge of worker protection legislation which was sponsored and piloted through the Oireachtas by successive Ministers for Labour, commencing with the Redundancy Payments Act, 1967. This legislation was soon followed by legislation governing such disparate areas as holidays, minimum notice, the employment of young persons, equal pay, equal opportunity, unfair dismissal and the protection of employment. We now have an extensive body of worker protection legislation, but one which can still be further developed. To this end a wide ranging review of the entire body of worker protection legislation is under way. The purpose of this review is to identify areas where further action is required.

As the first priority of this review I hope to see enacted, shortly, two further pieces of legislation dealing with hours of work and the protection of workers in insolvency situations. The Insolvency Bill, which I circulated to this House on 21 May, is designed to protect workers' entitlements in regard to wages and other matters and to ensure that these are paid in situations where employers become insolvent. The Second Stage of this Bill is due to be taken later today. My approach, in preparing this Bill, has been directed towards protecting workers to the greatest extent practicable in insolvency situations. The Bill guarantees the payment, subject to certain limits, of workers' outstanding claims against insolvent employers and, as such, it represents a major advance in the area of worker protection legislation.

The code of worker protection legislation has been the subject of attack in certain quarters in recent times. It is often alleged that this legislation is a disincentive to the creation of employment. I do not accept this line of argument. What it amounts to is an assertion that our present unemployment problems would be solved — or even partly solved — by reverting to earlier laissez-faire attitudes to workers rights, with all the discriminatory and unfair practices which such attitudes involved.

The Unfair Dismissals Act, 1977 is the target for much of this criticism. It is maintained that its provisions unduly restrict employers' freedom to dismiss employees who are unsatisfactory or incompetent and that this, in turn, is an inhibiting factor for management in taking on new workers. Yet, independent reviews and the views of a number of employer organisations have clearly indicated that the Act has encouraged the reform of procedures leading to disciplinary action and dismissal and that agreed disciplinary procedures are undoubtedly having a beneficial effect on industrial relations. The Act has also had the effect of reducing considerably the number of impulse or personality motivated dismissals and of causing employers to exercise greater care in selecting new employees and in monitoring the performances of existing ones.

I am reviewing the Unfair Dismissals Act, 1977, and it will be my aim to ensure that while workers are given full protection in their employment the Act will not operate in such a way as to discourage recruitment.

There is one other area where the fear of further erosion of living and working conditions prompts policies and actions which would turn back the clock and undermine solid achievement by trade unions and socially progressive Governments, reverting to the law of the jungle. This is the area of employment equality and women's rights generally.

The enactment of the Equal Pay and Employment Equality Acts marked the culmination of many years of campaigning on the part of women for comprehensive legislation to deal with discrimination against them in employment. Basic principles such as equal pay for equal work and equality of opportunity are now firmly established, but I am satisfied that there is scope for improving the effectiveness of the equality legislation by removing areas where inequalities, subtle and indirect, but quite significant, continue to exist. It is my intention to amend both Acts.

Legislation as an instrument of change has, of course, its limitations and must be supplemented by policies and mechanisms at the national level and more particularly at the level of the workplace to translate legal prescriptions into practical action. I have, accordingly, decided to seek Government approval for the introduction and implementation of a special programme of action in State bodies which would involve a statement of commitment to equality of opportunity between men and women in the workplace. It is my hope that such a framework would lead to the adoption of similar affirmative action plans, on a voluntary basis, by employers in the private sector.

Since becoming Minister for Labour, I have adopted a policy where all other things are equal, of appointing women to what have traditionally been male preserves — in the Labour Court, in appointments to State bodies for which I am responsible and indeed within the Department of Labour.

I turn next to another aspect of working conditions which, despite the recession, has drawn positive and constructive comment from all sides of the House on those far too rare occasions when it is debated, that is the issue of safety and health of people at work.

While many improvements have taken place in relation to safety and health at work over the past 20 years we have a long way to go before the position can be described as satisfactory. Industrial development has been accompanied by increased mechanisation, new technologies, new work methods and processes and a greater range of potentially hazardous substances and agents. We now have, at this stage of our development, two powerful stimuli for change.

Firstly, occupational safety and health policies at EEC level have proceeded rapidly in recent years. We are faced therefore with having to implement Council directives relating to the protection of workers from risks related to chemical, physical and biological agents at work from ionising radiation lead and asbestos.

These directives have a much wider application than the traditional scope of our domestic safety legislation, and they place strong emphasis on the provision of information to workers on the hazards involved with dangerous agents and medical surveillance during exposure to the agent. Consequently they will significantly alter our approach to the subject.

Secondly, the Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Safety Health and Welfare at Work — the Barrington Report as it is known — points the way for radical changes at all levels, national, workplace and others, with regard to the whole system relating to safety and health at work.

Three central proposals underpin the general thrust of the Commission's recommendations. The first is a new framework Act which would contain the basic general principles relating to the safety and health of all workers including the self-employed. The second concerns the establishment of a new national authority which would have a clear, identifiable and undisputed responsibility for occupational safety and health issues and with which employers, workers and their organisations would be associated as closely as possible. The third is a massive and sustained exercise of training, education and information at every level.

I agree with the Commission's analysis of the problem and with the report's general orientation. It will be no easy task to give effect to all the many recommendations. However, I intend to bring forward proposals, based on the Commission's recommendations, for decision by the Government as early as possible. I propose to involve the social partners closely with the development of my plans in this area.

I should like to turn now to the broader question of the EEC. As the House will be aware Ireland takes over the Presidency of the EEC on 1 July. I wish to outline briefly what I regard as priority items at the Social Affairs Council of which I shall have the honour of being President from 1 July to end 1984. My priority items will be — and this is to place emphasis on various items currently being discussed and considered by the Community are ones we want to initiate ourselves: (1) Proposed communication on the long-term unemployed; (2) Draft recommendation on the promotion of positive action for women; (3) Draft Decision establishing a third joint programme to encourage the exchange of young workers within the Community; (4) Draft Directive on the protection of workers from the effects of noise; (5) Technical progress on the `Vredeling' draft directive; (6) Proposed European Poverty Programme. While this item is the responsibility of the Minister for Social Welfare, it falls within the Social Affairs area at EEC level.

My priority, in the social affairs area, during the forthcoming Irish Presidency will be the need for a Community-wide initiative throughout the entire ten member states on employment and, specifically, on the difficulties facing the long-term unemployed.

In the social affairs area at community level, over the past few years, the approach has been to give special attention to particular aspects of concern in the employment field, such as youth and women's employment.

I intend to ensure that continued and strengthened emphasis is placed in areas deserving of this kind of attention during the Irish Presidency. The most appropriate way in which progress on a major employment initiative may be achieved at European level is currently being examined by my Department.

Another aspect of the EEC with which my Department are concerned is the European Social Fund. The importance of the fund to Ireland since our accession to the Community has been immense. Social Fund assistance has enabled us to expand dramatically our facilities for training, including the training of the handicapped and to develop other employment-related schemes to a degree that would have been impossible if we had had to rely on our own resources.

The amount of Social Fund aid approved for Ireland has increased from £4.1 million in 1973 to £124 million for 1983. A total of over £153 million has now been recommended for approval by the European Social Fund Committee in respect of operations to be carried out in 1984. I expect that recommendation to be adopted by the European Commission very shortly. Because of the general Community budgetary difficulties and a very substantial increase in the volume of applications for fund assistance from member states generally, a reduction amounting to about £13.7 million has had to be effected in applications relating to persons over 25.

To put the matter in perspective, I should point out that, even after the application of the reduction to some of our applications, the total of our expected approvals from the fund in 1984 at about £153 million will be easily the highest amount we have ever secured, representing an increase of £30 million on the total for 1984. In addition, Ireland's estimated share of the total fund at 11.48 per cent will be the biggest ever percentage, several times in excess of what we would be entitled to receive on the basis of our size and population.

I should like to turn now to the question of industrial relations. Many people see industrial relations as an activity based on conflict, a world where confrontation is rife and settlements are reached at the last possible moment, if at all. People holding these views may also be prone to see the answer to our industrial relations problems in much the same light as the problems themselves are seen. That is, as difficulties which may yield to one concerted effort or a single, prolonged negotiating session.

As Deputies will be aware, that is far from being the reality. Industrial relations is about the behaviour of men and women at work, day-in and day-out. If these relations are to be positive and amicable, the patient effort and sustained commitment of the parties must be forthcoming. Even then, there will be no idyllic outcomes. Conflicts of interest will still occur and recur between employer and employee. These conflicts can be constructively handled, however, where relations of trust have been created and maintained and where structures and procedures are adequate to the tasks at hand.

The long and involved job of overhauling our system of industrial relations at national level has commenced within my Department. Discussions are now taking place between my Department, the ICTU and the FUE. It would be easy to promise a quick and positive conclusion to these discussions. I know, as do the parties, that these discussions will be prolonged, complex and exacting. It is my aim to put proposals for reform to the Government in the early part of 1985 based on the outcome of the discussions.

It has long been apparent that trade union rationalisation would be a major contribution to industrial relations reform. The representation of a relatively small workforce by a large number of unions has had consequences that have been bad for the trade union movement and for industrial relations at both plant and national level.

To date, however, the progress achieved has fallen far short of the progress needed. This is despite the enactment of the Trade Union Act, 1975 which was introduced in order to encourage amalgamations and transfer of engagements among unions.

I believe that the prospects of progress in this area are more favourable now than they have been for some considerable time. The difficult operating environment with which unions must now contend, emphasise the defects of existing structures and the advantages of rationalisation.

While the initiative here must rest largely with trade unions themselves, the Minister for Labour can play an important supportive role. I am actively considering, therefore, the introduction of legislation to amend the Trade Union Act, 1975. My aim in doing so would be to strengthen the provisions of the Act thereby improving the incentives available to unions considering or effecting amalgamations or transfers of engagements.

The Worker Participation (State Enterprise) Act, 1977, marked a significant initiative in the matter of worker participation. The Act provided for the election of employees to the boards of directors of seven designated State enterprises in order to give employees the opportunity of voicing their views on company business discussed at board meetings and therefore a real say in determining company policy. It is fair to say that our limited experience with this form of employee participation has been encouraging. This has been borne out by the chairmen of the designated enterprises and by initial research carried out.

For this reason and bearing in mind the undertaking in the Programme for Government to examine means of encouraging an extension of industrial democracy, the Government have decided to improve and extend the Act to a further six State enterprises initially — Aer Rianta, Bord Gáis Éireann, An Foras Forbartha, the National Rehabilitation Board, Irish Steel Limited and the Voluntary Health Insurance Board.

The Government have also decided that the amending legislation will have provisions requiring State enterprises to establish sub-board structures on a request of a majority of their employees. This will help to achieve the objective of improving and developing communications and involvement at all levels in the enterprise.

With regard to the question of information disclosure a draft code of practice which was prepared in my Department was circulated in June 1981 to the union and employer bodies for their views. The aim of the code was to improve trade union and employee knowledge of company affairs and to facilitate responsible collective bargaining. I hope to revive interest in this code and to have discussions with the social partners on its contents.

I also intent to establish a national advisory committee on worker participation to advise me generally in this area. The terms of reference will include a review of the development of employee participation, encouragement of practical projects and co-ordination of the results of experimentation and the identification of research needs.

Deputies will be aware of the revised draft EEC document on information disclosure known as the Vredeling draft directive. The proposals have had a very difficult history in the Community since the first draft was presented to the Council in October 1980. Progress has been unspectacular and there has been a considerable amount of unease and fear among employer organisations and potential investing countries, for example the USA and Japan, at the prospect of a mandatory instrument in the area of information and consultation.

I am anxious during my Presidency to advance this particular proposal and have given a lot of thought to how best to achieve it. The major task is to bring the proposals to the stage at which political decisions can be taken. My first step is to identify the technical problems which have precluded progress being made. Once identified, it is my intention to have them discussed at a working party within the Council which will also be asked to come up with solutions to the problems identified in time to be considered at the formal meeting of the Council in December of this year. In this way, I intend to pave the way for early decisions on this urgent, important but long drawn out matter.

I hope in this brief review, in which I have not covered everything, that I have covered at least the main issues of interest to Deputies. If they want additional information on any of the matters I have discussed or anything else I will be happy to supply it.

I recommend the Estimate to the House.

I know that other Deputies are anxious to contribute and as we are on limited time I do not want to hog all of the time available to me. Obviously, the introduction of the Estimate by the Minister has stimulated discussion and a number of ideas. First of all, I should say that this is the first Estimate introduced by the present Minister in this House and I wish him well in his office there.

I am disappointed at some of the content of his introduction of this Estimate, at some of the omissions and the lack of concrete proposals in the whole area of unemployment. We are discussing this Estimate in a week in which the Intermediate and Leaving Certificate examinations are concluding and this will bring our unemployment numbers higher than they would have been at the beginning of this month. I will not put a figure on it because to do that would be to raise emotions, but it is substantially greater than the official figures. Early in his speech the Minister referred to the climate and prospects being better than the official estimates of recent months indicate. I hope that his optimism is justified. I am not sure on what grounds or criteria he is basing those optimistic forecasts. He does not back them up. I hope he is not depending on emigration as a solution to the problem. It is significant that he did not mention that when introducing his Estimate.

As the months have gone by I have been thinking more and more that the unemployment situation here calls for the establishment of a department of employment with special responsibility assigned to a Minister. I have no doubts that the Minister and the House will agree with me because in difficult situations such as this the Minister for Labour often has not the clout, power, strength or control to do the many things he would like to do to help the employment situation. Some things he can do, yes. I am speaking as a member of a Government at a time when prospects were far better and brighter than they are now. In a situation such as the present one the Minister for Labour needs more control over industrial development and the job creation programme in his bridge-building between industrial development, job creation and, of course, training and placement. Employment must have top priority in this decade and for many decades to come.

I was disappointed to hear the Minister say in the course of his speech that arrangements were in hand for preparing a major initiative on the employment front for our Presidency of the EEC. I am surprised that this has been allowed to run so late. We assume the Presidency of the EEC on 1 July. July and August traditionally in European terms have been months of little or no progress, so we are left with four months of the year. If this Government were serious or had the dynamism the Minister asserts they have, whatever programme is intended in the employment area would have been well prepared and researched by now and ready to go on next week when we assume the Presidency. I said during the recent election campaign that the whole future of the EEC depends on how we face up to the unemployment problem at Community level. It is a major problem for our country and for the Community. If at this late stage we are told by the Minister for Labour that preparations are in hand for announcing a major initiative by the Community, then I say that that should have been prepared and ready and surely could have had a first airing at this week's meeting of the Summit in France.

As I have said, I believe that a department of employment under the specific control of one Minister is called for. It must extend even further. It must go beyond the employed into the area of unemployment. If there is anything in the Minister's speech that is welcome, it is that he has a concern for the long-term unemployed. However, when he talks about more surveys and investigations, I tell him that the Manpower Consultative Committee, which I established some years back, has issued a report laying heavy emphasis on the problems of long-term unemployment and highlighting the fact that unemployment cushioning, so to speak, by way of money payments is heavily loaded in the earlier months but, unfortunately, as the unemployment period lengthens it becomes very lightly loaded and is causing poverty. The urgency of tackling this adult unemployment situation is increasing month by month.

About 70 per cent of the live register figure represents the adult unemployed yet only 25 per cent of those taking part in AnCO training programmes are adults. However, the theme of redressing that situation has been evident through the Minister's speech. I support him in his efforts in that direction. We are talking about a matter of great urgency and while it involves other Ministers too I would hope that my words would lend support to the Minister in his efforts to deal with the situation. A new poverty grouping is being introduced in our cities and towns and we must do something to redress the balance.

I regret that the placement surveys of the Department have not been allocated what I would consider to be adequate financial resources this year. I refer to the NMS. The inadequacy of the funding to that service is stifling the effect and efficient functioning of what is one of our most important agencies, an agency who are striving to place young and adult people alike in employment. Consequently, there should be no shortage of funds in that area. I offer that as a criticism. I welcome the appointment recently of the director of the Manpower Services but unfortunately industrial relations difficulties are having some impact. The responsibility for resolving those difficulties rest with the Minister just as such responsibility rested with me when I had responsibility for the Department. I do not intend going into the question of who is right or who is wrong but it is a situation that must be resolved by the Minister in the interest of those who are seeking work. The inadequacy of funding for the NMS is of particular concern when one hears the allegation made from time to time that other State agenceis are funded more than adequately.

I support and welcome the enterprise agency scheme but while I welcome the fact that the scheme has been responsible for the placing of 2,000 people I should not like the Minister to be over-optimistic because this figure represents only a minute percentage of the total unemployed. However, the scheme is a good one and it should be supported but there is a long way to go.

I understand that there will be debate later in the week on the Report of the Committee on Public Expenditure. That committee have given some attention to the matter of centralised expenditure. There can be no substitute for the Minister's Department being the central agency because it is an area in which the Minister can have the greatest impact. He can decide whether information is satisfactory and if there is a need for change he can make that change more quickly than would be the case of another centralised agency. I would support any effort on his part to ensure there is a co-ordinating role played by the Department in this matter. I do not wish to be critical of any of the agencies. It has been said that I was over-critical in this House of the Youth Employment Agency but I shall not criticise any agency who are trying to do a job in extremely difficult times. However, there must be room for improvement in each of the various agencies. There are some who say, for example, that there are aspects of AnCO that could be improved but that agency have been doing an excellent job in the whole area of training. We must be careful however, that they do not begin training for the sake of training. We all appreciate that there must be training where training is needed, especially in the area of high technology. We must all direct our efforts towards continuing to attract the high-technology industries. Fianna Fáil in office in the second half of the seventies set their sights on procuring those hightechnology industries which today are contributing so much to our exports. It is very important that that policy be continued.

I am putting industrial relations on a higher scale of priority than the Minister has done. Perhaps I erred in the past, too, but this area is not one that should be discussed last when we are dealing with an Estimate for the Department of Labour. We do not have sufficient time in the House for discussing industrial relations. It is well known that at times of high unemployment industrial relations are a little more happy than is the case at other times but that does not take from the fact that good and happy industrial relation should be an essential part of our lifestyle. The community working together is a more important factor now than it ever was before and it is in that context that I am disappointed to hear the Minister say that talks in this area will be slow and that he expects the matter to be brought before the Government in 1985. I am not blaming the Minister for the delay. We are very reluctant to make changes in this area. I am sure the Minister would wish to be able to bring about the changes within a short time but there are two sides — trade unions and management — and each can be fearful of change where no such fear should exist. What we are talking about is finding a better way forward. There is no point in saying we have good industrial relations when they are not good.

I did not have the time during the recent European elections campaign to be critical of the Minister but he would appear to be standing back from the long drawn out gas dispute in my city. I considered the Minister to have stood much further back from the problem than I or any of my predecessors would have done. Another very difficult dispute affecting the southern capital is the one at Campbell Catering. I shall not say any more about that other than that it is a dispute which, when it has concluded, may merit special investigation. I am not apportioning blame but that dispute should be ended quickly. I have heard, too, of a strike at Leo Laboratories and there is the situation at Hanleys in Rooskey which is affecting employment in the west. The Minister has a responsibility to ensure that disputes do not occur. There is a bus dispute in Dublin and I am concerned and disappointed that a dispute should be taking place in one agency of the Department, the National Manpower Service.

I am disappointed, too, that the Minister omitted to refer to the situation regarding the 3 per cent employment quota in the public service in respect of handicapped persons. While I appreciate that there is an embargo on recruitment, I hardly think that the handicapped or the disabled should be mistreated. Special attention should be paid to these people. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what proportion of the 3 per cent quota has been achieved. The deadline in that respect was reached some time ago.

I regard the Department of Labour as being very human in their approach to such groups and bearing that in mind I would encourage the Minister to take steps in respect of a matter that was brought to my attention more forcibly than ever before during the recent elections campaign. Access to voting is important. One of the facts which came to my notice was the lack of attention paid to polling stations by the powers that be. In some areas polling stations do not have easy access. I know it is not the responsibility of the Minister but he should ask the Minister responsible to take an urgent look at access to polling stations. We do not know when the Government will be going to the country. It could be months or weeks. The direction should be given now to returning officers to provide polling stations with easy access particularly for disabled persons.

The Minister referred to conditions of employment. There has been very little progress in that area. Safety in industry is a vitally important area but again there is little progress there. The Minister made a passing reference to the Barrington Commission which recommended worth-while positive proposals. The Minister referred to the necessity for the co-operation of both sides of industry in introducing safety regulations and legislation. I accept the need for that is urgent. We cannot be happy until there are no injuries or deaths at work places.

The Minister announced changes in the employment schemes operated by his Department. I welcome the decision to extend the employment incentives scheme to most activities. I appreciate the reason for not paying until the end of the 24 week period but that may be counter-productive. Could the Minister not have adopted a measure which would be half-way between the two: achieve what he wants to do and ensure that jobs are created? I hope the Minister does not adopt the right wing Fine Gael attitude when he said that part of the reason for doing it was to save money for the Supplementary Estimate.

The Minister said he confined recruitment under this scheme to two people per employer. Is this right? The needs of an employer may vary. The Minister should explain why he did this. No matter what number of employees there are, is it still two? In other words, is it two per 1,000 employees and still two if there are only five employees?

The EEC Council resolution on vocational training which incorporated a commitment by member states to provide a social guarantee of vocational preparation and training of young people was passed in July. I urge the YEA to come up with something positive. Young people are asking what the Government are prepared to do for them. To date they have done damn little.

The Minister gave his priorities as regards legislation and Ireland's Presidency of the Council. It is proposed to have a communication on the long-term unemployed. That is fine, but we all know the problem. I urge action rather than communications.

I appreciate the delicacy and difficulties attached to the draft directive. I had a document prepared when I was Minister. There is need for greater co-operation with workers and for a greater flow of information. We must be careful that we do not prohibit or prevent industries from coming here. Their fears are more often than not the fear of the unknown. However, in this time of high unemployment it will be extremely serious if we hold up any company that might be inclined to come here.

The Minister stated that the most appropriate way in which progress on a major employment initiative may be achieved at European level is currently being examined. That is something for the Irish Presidency, but if it is being currently examined it has not been given the priority it should have been given. I am amazed that there is no reference to CERT or the hotel deal in which the Minister was deeply involved. Some questions were asked in the House about it because CIE were under the aegis of the Department of Transport.

Why is there no reference to CERT who provide excellent training? When they were under threat from the Department of Finance some years ago, for the wrong reasons, I am proud to say they were rescued and saved by a former now deceased chairman of the body. Since then CERT have performed efficiently and effectively. They provide excellent opportunities for young people in the services industry and in hotel and catering areas. There is still great potential in that area which has not been fully realised. I was proud to be the Minister who presided over the giving of funds for their new centre in Roebuck. I am disappointed that a successor of mine did not see fit to refer to a body which contributed so much and who handled the whole deal regarding the CIE group of hotels. CERT were replaced by a new body when there was a change of Ministers. I am not sure whether the Minister owns the hotels, if the Department own them, if the new body owns them or who owns them. The House is entitled to know the position with regard to them. It is only fair that this new Minister, whose first decision was in relation to these hotels, should spell out clearly what has happened. Obviously there was some confusion between the Minister for Labour and the Minister for Finance because some of their public announcements did not agree. I am surprised no reference was made to the transfer of the CERT hotels. The public at large and the employees in particular are entitled to know what is happening, because the jobs involved are most important. I am asking the Minister to clear up this point. What moneys were paid over and by whom? I am talking about the debts which had been incurred by CIE hotels and what financial arrangements had been made. I am surprised that no reference was made to these matters in the Minister's speech.

I do not want to delay the House because there are many speakers who wish to contribute but I appreciate the reasons for allocating such a short time to the discussion of this Estimate. I wish the Minister well but, as a public relations exercise, presentation is no excuse for performance. We want employment but I believe the Government must consider setting up a Department of employment with a Minister for employment presiding over all aspects of jobs, job creation, development, training, placement and unemployment. There is a greater need for such a Department now than ever before.

I want to make a few brief comments on this Estimate. It is unfortunate that the time allocated for such an important Estimate is limited because I am sure many Members wish to comment on what is a fundamental and extremely serious problem confronting the Government and the country.

The Minister for Labour in his long address has got his priorities right by identifying the importance of unemployment and the concern people have expressed in regard to dealing with this problem. The presentation of the various schemes and Government agencies which deal with unemployment and its solutions have to be co-ordinated and a presentation which is not confusing must be got across to the public. There seems to be total confusion in the minds of the public as to which agency is responsible for what kind of employment, what scheme relates to particular areas and where the money comes from to fund these operations.

We have had discussions and media reports about young people being unemployed, people being made redundant and the necessity to provide the structures which will give hope to future generations. As technology advances there is a great difficulty facing the person who for many years worked in a factory or any other employment, but who, without any other qualifications, will find it very difficult to be placed in alternative employment. Young people from the ages of 18 to 25 years are willing to give every kind of employment a chance. They are willing to try different kinds of employment if necessary. The old idea of leaving school with a qualification which would give one a job for life has gone. Nowadays people are prepared to take breaks from their chosen careers and move to different types of employment. If a middle-aged person is made redundant this can create very serious problems because more than likely he will have family responsibilities with financial constraints.

The Youth Employment Agency recently circulated facts about young people. The numbers placed belie the conventional wisdom that is abroad, because between 1980 and 1982 75 per cent of young people entering the labour market were employed by the following May. In the same years, 50 per cent of those who left school without any qualification were still out of work by the following May. The importance of staying in education until one has acquired a qualification has been brought to light by that report.

The Government face some very fundamental decisions, and one relates principally to taxation. Various reports on taxation have been produced over the last few years. There is a certain amount of capital available in this country for investment, but people are afraid to produce this money because they may have to pay tax on one source or another. When one speaks to people who have money in building societies, where amounts are not disclosed, one realises there is a certain amount of capital available and if people were given an incentive to use this money to create employment it would benefit the country. Under the present system some people are able to write off vast amounts of assessed profit against new machinery or property. This leads to further personal benefit rather than being to the benefit of the country. If this capital could be made available without fear of having to pay tax on it, it would help to solve the national problem.

I welcome the recent appointment of the director of the National Manpower Service. Young people coming to public representatives say they are not as pleased as they might be with this service. The placement officers do the best they can but with over 2,000 or 3,000 people on the lists in some offices, young people say they have never been contacted subsequent to an interview or calling into a National Manpower Service office. Many employers do not contact the service for a variety of reasons. They may choose to find an employee from the "grapevine".

The controversy between AnCO and the National Manpower Service needs to be sorted out. I welcome the Government's decision to appoint a Minister of State with direct responsibility for this area. I am sure clearly defined lines as to the responsibility of these bodies will be drawn. The Dáil committee recently commented on this matter. The AnCO LINC Programme leaves certain questions to be asked. The statutory responsibility of the apprenticeship scheme and the AnCO residential courses are first-class and the people who acquire these qualifications are a credit to the organisation. But when one examines the promotion of the AnCO programme, one assumes that in a six weeks or 12 weeks course a similar qualification can be achieved through the training of unemployed people in various crafts and in different types of work.

If it is possible to train a young person to produce a certain quantity of saleable goods in 12 weeks or 14 weeks one begins to question the quality of training courses, particularly residential if such a person does not succeed. It is fair to say that the end result of AnCO-linked courses must also be questioned. Many people have started businesses as a result of such courses but they have fallen down on the administrative end afterwards: they have not been trained in the knowhow to avail of the various marketing opportunities available to help them to sell their goods in competition. Many people who have completed such AnCO-linked courses have very limited incomes from what they produce and in many cases they have had to fall back on social welfare assistance.

In February the managing director of the IDA stated that we face a jobless society because of automation. That is a myth that must be exploded. A whole new vocabulary is available to the younger generation. With the introduction of the microchip there is a whole new wisdom abroad. We have been told that automation will mean massive new unemployment. That is not true. Indeed the opposite has been the effect in the US and in Japan, for instance. The Government should consider seriously the figures given in the IDA report in the spring which stated that between 1973 and 1981 in the US, with a population of 280 million, 15 million new jobs were created and that in the same years in Japan, with a population of 115 million, 3.2 million jobs were created. In the same years, in the nine member states of the EEC, which has a population of 260 million, only 600,000 net new jobs were created.

Therefore, the Government must have a fundamental new look at how jobs can be created here, looking particularly at professional services, business, banks, insurance companies, health and leisure services, and education. In such services there is an important avenue towards more employment for any Government who have the initiative and the drive that are necessary. If we look at the international figures we will realise that we can do much better than we are doing.

I suppose the staff in the Department of Labour would number about 500 or 600 and AnCO employ several thousand. Therefore, the relationship between the Department and the various State agencies run by the Department needs to be reviewed. I agree with Deputy Gene Fitzgerald that the Minister for Labour should assume greater management in the employment creation field. His Department hold the key to the creation of a better society. Many young people are castigated for what they are supposed to be today, but when they are given the lead and opportunities to develop their talents we find they are much better than preceding generations of young people. The gap in their education and training is apparent and needs to be examined. They need encouragement from the Government to ensure that they will not drift away but that their energies and talents will be employed for the benefit of the nation. The Government must also ensure that they will not be taxed out of existence.

I congratulate the Minister and wish him well in the formidable task in front of him. Like Deputies Fitzgerald and Kenny, I suggest that the numerous agencies throughout the country should be concentrated in a central body for which the Department of Labour will be responsible. I have spoken to young people who have to plough through the information gathered from the various training agencies and I have learned that there is a need for such a central co-ordinating agency to enable young people to benefit from the various training programmes.

I am sorry to say that I do not sense any urgency in the Minister's statement. It is only a summary of the information available in the Department of Labour. Indeed, I am frightened at the prospects the Minister holds out for young people, and for democracy in Ireland. It is all very well to criticise young people. They have expectations and we in the Dáil have a duty to show them that something will be available for them. The Minister's speech does not suggest a coherent plan to help our young people at a time when there is urgency about producing a radical plan to create employment for them. Thousands of young people have been doing examinations, and accepting that many of them will be going on to third level education many thousands will be coming on the labour market, but this Estimate offers them very little hope.

I had great interest in a work experience programme because I had great hope for a programme AnCO had been carrying on. As an engineer and architect I became interested in a number of young people coming out of the regional colleges. I do not have to tell the Minister about the bad state of the building industry and how many people associated with it are suffering, but one feels bitter when one sees the number of young technicians coming out of the regional colleges without work experience. With the Mayo county manager, I organised a work experience course for a number of such technicians. They were interviewed, but unfortunately they were told that money was not available to continue with the programme. That programme would have done much good for the young people concerned. They complain that when they go for such interviews they are asked about their work experience, and they are in the dilemma that they are unable to get such experience unless they can avail of work experience programmes like that about which I have been speaking. It is an indictment of AnCO that for a programme like this, which was one of the first, there were no funds available. It is incumbent on me not to let this opportunity pass without congratulating AnCO on the tremendous job which they have done, particularly in youth training. In Mayo most of this work is carried out in the construction industry. I congratulate those in charge of this programme in Mayo and Sligo for their very fine work over the last couple of years.

Deputy Kenny spoke very briefly about the LINC Programme. This was started in west Cork, Wicklow and south Mayo. There were certain criticisms of the methods used for recruiting and of some of the people recruited. In general, as Deputy Kenny said, the programme was very satisfactory. It is unfortunate that it is rumoured to have ceased in west Cork and to be about to stop in Mayo. I should like that programme extended, particularly to north Mayo. A number of community bodies have been looking for this extension for a long time, but there is no sign of it for north Mayo. Could the Minister consider the possibility of meeting this request?

In company with the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, last night I attended a meeting of Ballina Trades Council. While a certain amount of optimism is expressed in the Minister's opening remarks here, around the table last night the mood was nothing short of pessimistic. A survey on unemployment has been carried out by them over the last number of months and the figures are absolutely startling. This is an area which, according to the national media, has done well but the facts are that the percentage of unemployed in the north Mayo region is now considerably higher than the national average and is approaching crisis point. Trade unionists last night expressed a despair for the future of the young people, particularly in the Ballina area.

With regard to the employment incentive scheme, I support the remarks of Deputy Fitzgerald and ask the Minister to reconsider the number to be admitted. I accept the thinking behind the Minister's decision that only two extra be taken on per employer but while I agree that some employers abuse the scheme there is no doubt that it has helped considerably to boost employment, particularly in the smaller businesses. I ask for, perhaps, a phased number of employees. The smaller the number, the more could be taken on and that would help.

I am disappointed that the Minister thinks with only half the year gone, that, he will have £3 million unexpended on the scheme. This is defeatist and I would ask him to have his officials pursue the scheme. The Minister has received me very sympathatically in relation to some of the conditions which apply to that scheme. I have referred to an individual, his own managing director and sales director, who asked me if it was better for him to fill up the forms or to be out selling. Could the Minister examine some of the provisions attached to the premium and relax, if possible, some of these conditions which are tying down the small employer? In many cases these people cannot afford to employ bookkeepers and extra staff. They are their own bookkeepers, managing directors and sales staff. It is more important for them to be out on the job of selling, keeping more in employment, than to be filling up forms. I do not see this programme as giving any hope to many thousands of young people. An Estimate such as this should be allotted much more time, because there are many Members who would like to contribute. When the business of the House is being ordered later, the idea of a proper discussion on an Estimate which is so important particularly in present times, should be considered.

I should like to thank the House, first, for the co-operative and constructive manner in which this Estimate has been discussed. I appreciate the concern of the Deputies about the time constraints which confine them as well as myself. In this connection, I refer to CERT and OIE. Constraints of time prevented my referring to these bodies and there was no other reason for their omission. A Supplementary Estimate is due to come in in that regard and I intend then to discuss the entire matter. I can assure Deputy Fitzgerald, whom I should congratulate on his recent election, that the position is quite clear. The Government decided not to sell off the hotels to private enterprise on the advice of many people. That decision is welcomed by the people in the industry in general and in particular by the workers. I suspect it is also welcomed by the majority of Opposition Deputies. Having made this decision, they opted to transfer ownership of the hotels to CERT. Following detailed discussions with that body, it was considered that, in order to maintain CERT's separate and independent relationship with the entire hotel industry, it would be incongruous for CERT to be operating on a day-to-day basis a particular hotel chain and at the same time providing neutral professional services to other hotels.

For that reason, our formula was evolved with the full co-operation of the CERT council, their chief executive and chairman — people well known to Deputy Fitzgerald and, indeed, to Deputy Calleary. The day-to-day running of the company would be the responsibility of the new board which would be appointed by me in consultation with CERT and their two members from the council of CERT on the board of OIE. This would provide a satisfactory triangular relationship. That is merely to clarify the point which Deputy Fitzgerald raised. There will be an opportunity for the House to discuss this matter in full at a later stage and it would be better to wait until then.

Equally, it goes without saying that the work of CERT is recognised by me as of such value and importance that I was particularly anxious that it should maintain its independence vis-à-vis the OIE hotels in order to be in a position to continue the good work which Deputy Fitzgerald rightly praised. I should like to be associated with his comments in that latter regard.

A number of points have been made which I shall take very quickly and briefly and respond to as succinctly as possible. Both Deputy Fitzgerald and Deputy Kenny referred to the question of co-ordination. When I was appointed Minister for Labour, simultaneously the Minister of State at the Department of Labour was appointed also as Minister of State at the Department of Education, with the specific task of attempting to co-ordinate these areas. As I have said, the report is completed. I did not give it much time, again for reasons of constraints of time and because the House will be discussing, on next Thursday afternoon, a report of its own public expenditure committee on this matter. The Minister of State will be taking the debate as far as this Department are concerned. He has chaired the working party on the report and has had extensive consultation with the various groups involved and it is amazing to see the wide range of groups who feel that they have a role to play in this area.

I invite the House to be fully frank and highly constructive in their criticism in this area. As Deputy Fitzgerald will recognise, there is a territorial conflict, so to speak, between different bureaucrats in different organisations. That conflict was present before this administration took over and if we as politicians do not resolve it, it will continue. I invite the House to give a clear indication to the bureaucrats and the incumbent office holders of the day, in this instance myself, as legislators responsible and accountable to the public, having to answer for the taxpayers' money, of what it wants. Proposals will be put forward in the expenditure committee's own document. Armed with those proposals, we can finalise and knock into shape aspects of centralisation and co-ordination.

There should be a clear transition from school to work. The interface of training is the responsibility of the manpower agencies in general terms. The National Manpower Service should have a direct link with every school. Every child leaving school should be contacted in advance by the National Manpower Service. The options open to them should be pointed out to them either directly by the NMS, or a career guidance teacher within the school, or some designated body. This should all be done in a co-ordinated manner so that parents will know there is an orderly progression from school to training with the prospect of work. I strongly support the comments made by Deputy Kenny and Deputy Fitzgerald.

I am quite confident that within the next month or so we will have clarification in relation to co-ordination. All Members of the House will recognise what I am asking for, clear political guidance as to what Members of the Oireachtas would like. There are other views which are bureaucratic in their nature. I want to turn to the overall optimism I was attempting to generate in the debate. We face horrendous problems, but we are running a real risk of making bad problems worse by over-dramatising them and by exaggerating them and not taking comfort from some of the signs, small as they may be, that things are not getting worse but possibly beginning to improve. We have enough problems without inventing ones which do not exist.

There is a perception that none of the young people who are now relaxing having finished their leaving or intermediate certificates will get jobs. As Deputy Kenny pointed out, the vast majority of them will get jobs. All these surveys and research show that the more qualifications and the higher the level of education they have, the better their percentage chance is of getting a job. It is up to us to make the resources available in the most efficient manner and to ensure that their educational and training requirements are met. For that we need the co-operation of the schools. Schools must recognise that they have a greater responsibility to orientate children towards opportunities for work than perhaps was the tradition in the past. This is a matter for the co-ordination exercise which will be undertaken and completed by my colleague, Deputy Birmingham, the Minister of State.

We still have unsatisfactory industrial relations. Deputy Fitzgerald was correct when he said that difficult economic times tend to improve the margins, but the level of man days lost or person days lost — because women lose work as well as a result of strikes — is far too high. The statistics do not give the full picture in relation to loss of productivity in ongoing disputes, or where there are bad relations and the productivity potential of an enterprise is not properly harnessed.

It is not the job of the Minister for Labour to become an industrial relations negotiator. The former Minister for Labour will recognise that all too often both sides to a dispute and the public in particular think it is the job of the Minister for Labour to solve every strike which goes beyond a certain point. That is not our job. We are not trained to do that job and, if we are forced into doing it, we may be getting in the way and perhaps making difficult if not impossible the task of those whose job it is to resolve industrial disputes.

Hear, hear.

It is the job of the Minister for Labour to ensure that the machinery to resolve industrial disputes operates smoothly, effectively and efficiently. I refer to the Labour Court and the related agencies and the conciliation officers. During the course of the discussions now taking place with both the social partners — the deadline is 1984 — I will come forward with a package of proposals to update and improve the industrial relations machinery. There is a clear distinction between the responsibility of the Minister for Labour, whoever that person may be, to provide an efficient framework to resolve specific conflicts. We cannot afford to continue with bad industrial relations or, worse still, a perception of bad industrial relations on the part of prospective customers for products we sell abroad or prospective investors. This may be preventing us from getting a share of the international market which would go a long way towards solving the problem of unemployment.

Within the area of worker protection legislation there is a need to co-ordinate the legislation which has grown up over the years. I referred to that in my speech and I will not repeat it. Deputy Fitzgerald raised the question of the employment incentive scheme. He made a reasonable point about payments. A series of recommendations by the Department was announced previously and communicated to both sides. I take Deputy Fitzgerald's point. If they are administrative arrangements, they can be altered. The purpose of the scheme is to provide extra employment. If the attempted revision and improvement, with less bureaucracy on both sides and the money coming in a lump sum, is counter-productive, we will change it. As soon as Deputies have direct experience that this is what is happening on the ground, I invite them to give me their views and we will respond accordingly. There is nothing magical about the regulations. They are designed to be as streamlined and as supportive as possible. I have no doubt that we have not got it 100 per cent right. Probably some aspects of it will not work out as we intended. If it emerges that that is the case, I invite Deputies to inform me of it, because they are out in the field, so to speak. I will welcome that information and I will respond accordingly.

The whole question of the EEC was raised. Deputy Fitzgerald talked about our incoming Presidency. He was correct in recognising that I have a particular concern for the long-term unemployed. If we get a major upturn in economic activity in western Europe many of the 13 million people who are currently unemployed will not get work. That is the reality. We will not put 13 million people back to work within the next two or three years no matter how we try. People who have been unemployed for a long time will have additional difficulties. During our term in the Presidency we will concentrate in part on the question of developing measures at EEC level to assist people who are in a particularly acute situation.

We have not gone half far enough in our attitude to equality between men and women. For some time to come men will have to discriminate positively in favour of women in certain key areas to redress the historical balance, for which this generation of men are not responsible but which undoubtedly colours their attitude. I make no apology for the fact that I have consciously pursued a policy within my Department in areas where I have discretion to appoint people. In appointing suitably qualified people I give preference to women because there must be a programme of affirmative action in that area.

Hear, hear.

Deputy Fitzgerald raised the matter of the handicapped. We have renewed the programme. Regrettably, the embargo is affecting it to a certain extent but it is our intention to maintain and increase the quota if possible.

Vote put and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn