Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Nov 1984

Vol. 354 No. 1

Adjournment Debate. - Curragh Camp Clerical Appointment.

Is the Minister for Defence aware of the serious unrest in the Army resulting from the recent appointment of a non-recommended person to a clerical position at the Curragh Army Camp and will he inform Dáil Éireann, as a matter of urgency, of the circumstances surrounding this appointment? This is a very serious matter and I wish to thank the Chair for giving us the opportunity to discuss it and also the Minister for being present. I wish to share my time with Deputy Power, a former Minister for Defence.

We wish to ascertain the facts relating to the appointment of a person to the position of clerical officer, Grade III, in the NCO section of the Army at the Curragh Army Barracks, County Kildare. There has been widespread dissatisfaction of late because of several civilian appointments which have been made in the Army. This dissatisfaction has culminated in the proposed appointment of a Mr. Culla to this aforementioned Grade III clerical position. Mr. Culla was an applicant for this position although not employed by the Army which leads to several questions which the Minister for Defence must answer clearly in this House tonight. First, was this position advertised publicly? If so, when, where and who was in charge of scrutinising the applicants? Secondly, was this position advertised internally among the existing Army staff? If so, was this the only advertising done, how was the post declared vacant to existing Army staff and when was this done?

These are very important questions. There are about 2,000 civilian staff in our Army and in proportion to the size of the Army that is very high and would not compare favourably with the ratio of civilian staff in other armies throughout the world. From this pool of experience and resources there must be an ample number of applicants with the necessary skills, expertise, ability and experience to fill this post adequately. Moreover, Army work at this level is much different from the ordinary, run-of-the-mill clerical work that clerical officers do in private and public sector offices. It would be much more varied than the normal Army duties which would be strictly military administration. More important, due to the peculiar and particular work in Army duties like this there is the necessity to ensure that equality of opportunity with regard to promotion prevails for all staff who are available in such large numbers in the civilian section of our Army.

The Minister seems to have totally gone outside the normal criteria in making such appointments. The interview board found the aforementioned person unsuitable for the post and did not recommend him. Normally the Minister would appoint some person from the recommended suitable list but on this occasion the Minister chose to ignore this list. He proceeded to appoint the aforementioned person to this prestigious position which carries a salary of approximately £10,000 per annum. This is very sad because the person concerned is employed at present. What about the young jobless people? What about the 200,000 people out of work? What about the hopes and aspirations of young people leaving school or those who have left school in the past two or three years and who are still unemployed? What type of Government standards and Government leadership is this for those people who are in this hopeless situation?

There is another reason why this Mr. Culla was recommended for appointment to the position. It appears his father is a close friend of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Dukes, the person in charge of our national finances. This is what makes it all the more serious. We recognise the right of the Minister for Defence to make certain decisions vis-à-vis Army administration but when we find another Minister conspiring to have one of his friends appointed to this very important position it brings into the public forum the whole question of the integrity of the Government. It shows the vice-like grip that Deputy Dukes has on the whole Cabinet operation. Through him the Taoiseach is imposing penal measures on all our citizens and we have to suffer severe reductions with regard to our public services.

I should like to ask the Minister if normal criteria were applied in this situation. In other appointments that were made lists were furnished but some names were not on the lists and the lists were returned. Other names were added and requests were made for more interviews. The people interviewed on the second occasion were not placed on the recommended list but yet they were appointed. We recognise that the Minister for Defence has a delicate and sensitive portfolio. We recognise the contribution of our Army and the important contribution made by all staff in the Army. We realise that it must be seen that the Army cannot be the victim of political interference. It is vital that there be equality of opportunity. There is considerable skill and expertise in all sectors of our Army. We should like the Minister to clear up the situation. He is the man charged with administering the Army. We do not want to see the democratic powers vested in him usurped in any way to ensure that political friends are appointed to prestigious posts.

I wish to thank the Chair for his indulgence in allowing us to raise this matter on the tenth hour of a very long day. I hope that as far as the Minister for Defence is concerned he will realise the seriousness of the situation and relent even at this late stage. Our concern is based on a story which appeared yesterday in The Irish Press and which was attributed to its security correspondent, Tom Brady. It was picked up by the other papers and published by them today. It is backed up by people close to the scene, trade union officials and Army officers. The Minister for Defence has a public relations team at his disposal and he comes from a Cabinet who lay great stress on public relations. Therefore, one would have thought he would have defused the time bomb before now or have denied the allegation if he could.

The Army are constantly reminded of the political manoeuvring of Coalition Governments. This is probably the worst and the most blatant case of jobbery since the infamous Army officers promotions in the days of the former Minister, Mr. Donegan. There is a similarity here. Both Mr. Donegan and the present Minister are decent people but they are not able to stand up to the pressures from within the Cabinet. Mr. Donegan did the bidding of his Taoiseach with regard to Army promotions and now it appears that this Minister has succumbed to the overtures of the Minister for Finance. It is that Minister who must take most of the blame for this appointment. The dénouement of this dirty deed will see the real Coalition image of this discredited Cabinet. They portrayed a whiter than white image in the first flush of publicity but that was followed by a sorry and sordid saga of political partonage, jobbery and mean, petty acts. I am not surprised. People in Kildare who have a knowledge of Kildare Post Office remember the interference of Deputy Dukes in a job that was filled there some years ago.

It appears that the man earmarked for this post is the son of a leading Fine Gael man in Kildare town. I believe he already had a job but was advised to apply for this clerical post in the Curragh. The post is of a distinctly technical nature. The Minister had a panel to interview applicants and short-list those who were suitable. I am told that one of the people short-listed had 15 years experience and was eminently suitable but the Minister did not consider the suitable applicants for the post.

Despite the recommendation of the interviewers, the Minister did not consider those people because they lacked one vital ingredient, Fine Gael allegiance. They also lacked the imprimatur of the Minister for Finance. Despite the fact that this political friend was classified as unsuitable, it is proposed now to appoint him to the post and he will be expecting some of those who were passed over to train him for the four months or so before he is fit to fill this post. If this was related to horses the steward of the Turf Club would be very likely to call in to the Minister to ask him to explain why he was using the Curragh as a schooling ground for this entrant before he was fit to race. Many posts in the Curragh which remain to be filled are not filled because of the ban on recruitment in the public service. It would be hard to make any reasonable case for the applicant in this instance being appointed and also for the passing over of the other highly qualified satisfactory applicants.

I am sure there are vacancies in Athlone too, and the Minister realises that in a garrison town you are dealing with a very sensitive matter when you deal with defence. It is a pity that he has not ruled to defuse this situation before now. This is the nub of the problem. A person who was deemed unsatisfactory by the interview board is now to be appointed. This is just not done. The Minister may quote some rule to me that enables him to take this action. A judge at a race meeting because of fog or something else might decide that the fourth horse had finished in front, he might stick to his guns and the bookmakers might have to pay out, but that would not mean that he was right. This should not be done and I can say safely that it was not done in my time as Minister. It should not be tolerated. This blatant jobbery is first of all a slight on the interview board. Why do you set them up at all if you are not going to use their advice? It is a slur on the Army and a blow to the morale of the Defence Forces and to their civilian employees.

When the Minister goes to the next commissioning ceremony in the Curragh and sees the young cadets there take the oath to be loyal to their country and avoid political allegiance, how can he face them if he is responsible for this act? I know that two brothers of the political appointee are already officers in the Army. I can understand why it is necessary to transfer one of them recently from a posting that he had. I know that these fine young men were selected and promoted on merit——

Members of the Defence Forces who are not the subject of this matter should not be identified.

I am sure that every officer in the Defence Forces would feel that he was promoted on merit, although some of them might wonder if they look back after a while. Anyhow, because of the Minister's action, for evermore the names of Cooney and Culla will be interlinked and will blight the future of that man's family as well as the Minister's future. How do we know how future vacancies might be filled or what format might be used in Army barracks throughout the country? As this happened in November, is it now quite possible that if an applicant arrived wearing a poppy in his lapel this might enhance his chance of being selected by a certain interview board or being appointed even if he was not selected?

I am sorry that this example of political patronage had to be raised here tonight. It cannot be too late yet to block the appointment. I advise the Minister not to go ahead with the horse trading. No matter what the Minister for Finance offered him in return for this, it is simply not worth it. The Taoiseach promised the country clean, open government, and most people were naive enough to accept that. Unless he blocks this appointment he, along with his discredited Ministers, will be seen for the shoddy sham that they are. It has been said that the evil that men do lives after them, and I forecast that if the Minister goes ahead with this rash act the names Cooney, Culla and the Curragh will long be remembered, and not for the right reasons.

What I have read about this matter so far and what I have heard here this evening point up the truth of the old adage that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The truth of that is compounded in this situation when the little knowledge is motivated by cant and hypocrisy. The Private Notice Question asks if I am aware of the serious unrest within the Army. That, of course, is a most serious thing to put down in a parliamentary question. It is the height of nonsense and irresponsibility for an Opposition spokesman on Defence and a past Minister for Defence to use such a phrase concerning this matter when it has absolutely no foundation. "Resulting from the recent appointment of a non-recommended person" is totally false. Deputy Power stated that his information is based on newspaper reports and he went on to say "and from people close to the scene". I would have expected that if Deputy Power or Deputy Tracy were interested in the welfare of the Army and were concerned about the status of the Army and that the Army would not be demeaned by their demeanour here this evening——

More of this.

——they would have approached me and told me what they believed to be the case and got the true facts from me and if they were not then satisfied they could then come into Parliament and raise the matter. Instead they decided to play politics on the basis of half stories and a little knowledge.

It is untrue to say that the candidate who has been appointed was cast as unsuitable or was rejected by the interview board. He was found suitable and was recommended to me and on that basis he has been appointed, and I make no apology for the appointment. That information would have been made available to Deputy Treacy and Deputy Power if they had thought fit to ask me for it, but that would not have suited them.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

That would not have suited them. They could not then have come in here to throw up dirt as they have done for the last ten or 15 minutes.

Was he appointed after the first interview?

There was only one interview, and he was found suitable as a result of that.

Was he first on the list?

I will give an extract from the report of the chairman of the board on this man: "During the 30 minute interview he acquitted himself in an excellent manner and I found him to be very much above average". That is an exact quote from the report to me from the chairman of that board.

Again I remind the two Deputies opposite that the appointing authority in this matter is the Minister for Defence, a political person. That has been the situation for decades past with regard to these appointments. For newspapers to suggest that because I made this appointment there is political interference is totally at odds with the legal position. The appointing authority is the Minister for Defence of the day. When Deputy Power was in this position he made numerous appointments of this type. The status of an interview board is to assist the Minister in making the appointment in finding for the Minister people who are suitable to be appointed. The person I am appointing in this case came up to me from a lawfully constituted board as being suitable and qualified and was recommended to me as a person fit for this appointment.

I want to give some facts and figures that might be interesting to Deputy Power. In the past Deputy Power has had the advantage and benefit of interview boards. Not merely did those boards form a suitable panel from which Deputy Power could make a selection, as is the case we are debating this evening, but those interview boards place the candidates in order of merit. However, on four occasions Deputy Power chose to ignore the order of merit.

(Interruptions.)

If Deputies cannot conduct themselves they should leave the House.

We are not talking about a very weighty position, nevertheless it is of sufficient moment to Members of the Opposition to drag the Army and the Army's reputation into this House in a most discreditable fashion. On 1 June 1982 Deputy Power appointed a storeman. He chose the person who was placed No. 6 in the order of merit. On 30 September 1982 he appointed another storeman and he picked the person placed No. 3 in the order of merit. He was getting the bit between his teeth now, and we come to 19 October 1982 when he had to appoint a clerk of works. His conscience might have been getting at him a bit because he appointed the person who was No.2 on the order of merit. Again, with the bit between his teeth, on the following day, 20 October 1982, he appointed another storeman who was not No. 1 on the order of merit but No. 2. For Deputy Power to come in here and lecture me about standards in view of his record is an incredible cheek and an incredible impertinence.

That adds point to what I am saying, that the whole object of this exercise was not concern for the Army, not concern with the quality of the applicant, the merits of the application or of the post or to do the right thing for the Army but to try to score a silly, cheap political point. The Deputies were prepared to come to the House and talk about serious unrest in the Army, about a non-recommended person on the basis of rumours that appeared in the newspapers and of "who told you" and "somebody told me". There were half rumours picked up——

Did the Minister not say that some of them were a disgrace the other day?

——in the gossip corridors of the Curragh. I advise Deputy Treacy, the recently appointed spokesman on Defence, to take a lesson from tonight's episode and before he comes in with anything like this again to sort out his ground and not to jump in feet first with his eyes closed. If he continues to do that he will continue to land into a political mess. Deputy Treacy asked how the post was advertised. It was advertised in the normal fashion for posts of this nature, which has prevailed for decades past. Invitations to serving personnel to apply were issued and, in addition, National Manpower Service were informed of the vacancy and asked if they had any persons interested and suitable to send them forward for interview. That was the way the post was filled and it was in accordance with normal procedure.

Deputy Treacy has gone on record as referring to this as a £10,000 per year post. He disregarded the facts. One has to be accurate when one comes to the House with facts. This post carries a commencing salary of £133 per week moving after eight yearly increments to £184 per week. That is just a point of correction for Deputy Treacy. If he was concerned about this matter and not just concerned with making crude political points he could have approached me and I would have given him all the facts gladly. This matter could have been defused and the unfortunate misrepresentation that has appeared in the newspapers could have been avoided and, I have to say, this unseemly debate would not have had to take place. I make no apologies for what has been done because it has been strictly in accordance with set procedures.

Is the Minister saying that there have been no difficulties?

What has been done has been strictly in accordance with the proper procedures for filling this post. I am satisfied that the person who was recommended to me was properly qualified for the post. Invitations to apply were issued in the normal way and I do not have any apologies to make for what was done.

I should like to make some comments on what appeared in the newspapers. The Irish Independent of 19 November alleged that the candidate concerned was rejected by an interview board. That is not so and it is wrong. Again, that could have been checked out in advance. The Irish Press of 19 November spoke about a major row over alleged political interference but I have already made it clear that the person who appoints people to these positions is the Minister of the day, a political person. There was no political interference in the sense implied in that article.

What position did this person occupy on the list?

That article also stated that the person was not considered suitable and that in this case Mr. Cooney had selected a man whose qualifications were not considered suitable. That is wrong and I have just put on record what the chairman of the board said about this man.

What position did he occupy on the list?

They were not listed; there was no order of merit. They were all people who were found suitable.

Is that a new criterion?

It is because it is the Minister's privilege to make the appointment.

It relieves the Minister.

The Irish Press of 20 November implies that there was a second interview set up so that this applicant could be brought in. That is not so. There was only one interview and one board. I am anxious to correct those matters. I regret that the matter has been raised in the way it has been raised. I regret that the Army has been dragged into this in a political fashion. I must emphasise to Deputy Treacy — I should not have to do it to Deputy Power but he appears to be confused about the matter — that what is concerned here is the appointment of a civilian operative, it is not an Army appointment. These are civilian operatives who are working for the Department of Defence in a quasi civil service position. It has nothing to do with the Permanent Defence Forces. It is important that the two Deputies opposite do not confuse a civilian operative——

They will be dealing with the Army every day. How can the Minister say that it does not have anything to do with the Army. That is a ridiculous statement.

——with the members of the Permanent Defence Forces. To come here and run the case on the basis that this is somehow an Army appointment and that the Minister was somehow involved in the Army appointment is equally reprehensible and I regret it. I hope in what I have said I have cleared the air.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.25 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 November 1984.

Barr
Roinn