Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Mar 1985

Vol. 357 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Spanish and Portuguese Fishing Rights: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Daly on 26 March 1985:

"That Dáil Éireann solemnly declares it will reject any arrangements which will permit access by Spanish or Portuguese fishing boats to what is referred to as The Irish Box in the present EEC negotiations on the enlargement of the Community."

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann declares its support for the efforts of the Government to ensure an outcome favourable to the further development of the Irish fishing industry in the fisheries chapter of the accession negotiations between the European Community and the applicant countries."

—(Minister for Foreign Affairs).

Mr. J. Walsh

Fianna Fáil tabled this motion to give some backbone to our negotiators in regard to the accession of Spain and Portugal to the Community and becoming participants in the Common Fisheries Policy. In reiterating Fianna Fáil's support for the Irish fishing industry, I appeal to the Ministers involved in the negotiations to adopt a tough stand. They should hold out for the maximum derogation period. It is necessary to do that because our fishing industry is not adequately prepared to meet competition from Spain. The state of our fleet is pretty appalling. We have many ageing vessels and some of them are virtually obsolete. Our processing industry is underdeveloped and the marketing of our fish products leaves a lot to be desired. Will the Minister for Fisheries outline to me details of the decommissioning grant scheme which is available in other EC countries? I have made a similar request many times in recent years. Other countries have found that scheme to be of tremendous help in modernising their fleets. Under it they can sell their vessels to some west African countries or for scrap. The amount of grant aid given under the scheme is considerable. Have we made any progress in that regard?

Our negotiators should be pressing for a substantial development package for our industry. I am not seeking a derogation for any reason other than to allow time for the development of our industry. The fishermen off the south-west and west coast are as good as fishermen in any part of the world. They could compete if they had the resources, a modern fleet and the facilities. A little competition would not be a bad thing for our industry. It is worth pointing out that some years ago mackerel fishing was not very popular here but as a result of competition our fishermen took an interest in that species. It is my hope that when our fleet is modernised our industry will prosper.

With regard to processing and marketing, it is a scandal that 40 per cent of fish products consumed here are imported. A total of £23 million worth of fish products were imported last year. That should not be the case and we should be able to substitute those imports by fish landed by our fishermen and processed and marketed here. I appeal to the Ministers concerned to insist on getting a package similar to the £300 million package produced for western farmers when Fianna Fáil were in Government. That package was for the development of disadvantaged farmers. A similar package should be prepared for our fishing industry.

With regard to harbour development works, I must highlight some of the work that is necessary in the south-west region. With an important political event due to take place on 20 June I hope the Minister will announce that work is about to start on Schull pier.

Mr. O'Toole

Yes.

Mr. J. Walsh

It is a bad wind that does not blow good for somebody.

Mr. O'Toole

The Deputy will get his share of the credit.

Mr. J. Walsh

I hope this blows well for the fishermen of Cork south-west. I should like to refer to the boat building section of the industry. The Minister should direct his attention to the Baltimore boatyard which has been allowed to gather dust and, indeed, many other problems. Before it closed down there was a tremendous tradition of boat building in that area. The boatyard gave a lot of work and at its peak between 70 and 80 people were employed. If we are to modernise, develop and support our fishing industry we certainly need a progressive boat building industry.

With regard to research and development, I should like to point out that it is 21 years since an important report on that aspect was issued. The publication of the report followed the visit of the late President Kennedy to Ireland. With the late Seán Lemass. he suggested that a committee be established to make recommendations regarding the development of our fishing industry. It is sad to record that since then very little tangible support has been given to research and development. I suggest that those involved in research should do more of their work on location. They should inhale some of the sea air around the south and western coasts. They should get away from the barrels of salt water and sail in some of the choppy waters around the Fastnet Rock and the Dursey Sound.

The 1964 report also suggested that a fisheries research field station be established at kinsale. I do not accept the excuse given for the failure to carry out that work, that it is not possible to trace the owner. The Land Commission is no longer with us to delay this matter any longer. If we are to have a progressive industry we must have the support of research and development, proper processing and marketing and a modern fleet. If we are given a minimum derogation period of 20 years our industry will be able to cope with any competition from Spain, Portugal or any other country.

Minister for Fisheries and Forestry (Mr. O'Toole)

I propose to divide up my 30 minutes by taking 20 minutes myself and giving five minutes to Minister of State D'Arcy and the remaining five minutes to Deputy Sheehan. I support the amendment tabled by the Minister for Foreign Affairs in regard to this issue. Last night, the Minister indicated the reasons for his amendment and I do not propose to repeat what he said except to reiterate the very basic point that we cannot exclude Spain and Portugal on a permanent basis from any part of Community waters. Deputy Daly seems to think that we have a right and an obligation to do so but there is a certain amount of tongue in cheek in his statements because Deputy Daly, as a former Minister, attended many Council meetings in Europe and took part in the formulation of the Common Fisheries Policy. He must know that in relation to member states, certain rights are conferred by membership and that they demand these rights under the Rome Treaty. It is only through negotiation that derogations are looked for and, if successful, acceded to. We are now seeking derogations from first day access by Spain into Community waters and those adjacent to our coast.

In case anybody has the idea that we should be ashamed of the fishing industry or that it is not developing along the lines which we wish to see, perhaps a few figures will indicate what I am talking about. In 1963, we were catching roughly 26.000 tonnes of fish in this country. 20 years later, in 1983. we were catching 200,000 tonnes, an increase of 700 per cent. In money terms the 1963 figure was roughly £1.1 million as against £53 million in 1983. In export value, this amounted to £85 million. By any standard or measurement you care to apply, that is progress which is still being maintained despite the many difficulties which beset the industry at present. In the same period, direct employment in fishing increased to 8,500 and, if you take ancillary employment into account, it brings the figure up to 13,500.

Deputy Joe Walsh is a very practical, reasonable and fair politician. He stated that all we could hope to gain is the maximum derogation. He is not insisting on the crazy principle which has been enunciated by some of his colleagues that Spain should never be allowed in, when they know that this is not possible. I compliment Deputy Walsh on his practical and reasonable stance on this issue. He raised the question of research and development, and in the national plan there is a reference to the production of a white paper on the fishing industry which is now being prepared. It will outline the framework for our policy attitude to the fishing industry in the coming year.

In relation to restructuring, he raised the subject of laying up or decommissioning grants which are part of the Common Fisheries Policy structures. There are restructuring grants and decommissioning grants. I strongly make the point that we should not concentrate too much on decommissioning grants because the capacity in our fleet is about right to meet the catch opportunities in our waters. While other countries can and do avail of these because of overcapacity in their fleets, we do not suffer from that and we want to increase our catches. We have the capacity to do this within the existing fleet.

In relation to the Baltimore boatyard, I assert once again that, in the past, Bord Iascaigh Mhara were involved in the boat building business but I do not think it is a suitable business for a semi-State body and I have advised them that they are never again to get involved in this kind of commercial enterprise. If the private sector see that there is an opportunity for them to make a profit in such an industry, it is open to them to avail of it and no doubt they will when they are convinced that there is profitability in this kind of enterprise.

The fisheries chapter relating to the enlargement negotiations has been discussed in this House on more than one occasion. I have been accused, as has the Minister for Foreign Affairs, of allowing a position to obtain where the subject of fisheries was left to the end of the negotiating period. Anyone who takes an interest in this will know that the reason it was left to the end was that it was such a knotty problem but it is now being discussed at length. With the Minister for Foreign Affairs and his Minister of State. I was involved for four days last week at a Foreign Ministers' Council in trying to ensure that the present discussions would result in the most favourable deal possible for this country and our fishermen. These negotiations were postponed from last week and they are starting again tomorrow morning in Brussels. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, his Minister of State and I will be there to ensure that we hold our line. Indeed, that line has been held in spite of what has been reported in the press and enunciated by Members of the party opposite.

We have sought a long period of exclusion by Spanish fishing vessels from the Irish box. We have also sought restrictions on the numbers of vessels that will eventually have access to the Irish box and other restrictions in relation to quotas and species, and all these demands are in place. I understand that the Minister for Foreign Affairs pointed out last night that the allegation that a Spanish armada will descend on our coast, throwing 13,500 people out of work. is nothing short of political hogwash.

Mr. P. Gallagher

What constitutes an armada?

Mr. O'Toole

As the Minister said last night, 1 per cent at most of what now constitutes the Spanish fleet will be involved in the EC fisheries.

Mr. P. Gallagher

Can the Minister guarantee that?

Mr. O'Toole

That 1 per cent is based on a standardised size of boat. When a number of boats is mentioned, that number refers to a standardised size of boat and not, as has been said today, that they could pick X number of the biggest boats available, in other words, ships. That is not on and we should understand that.

Mr. P. Gallagher

What is the horse power?

Mr. O'Toole

700 horse power.

Mr. P. Gallagher

That is a big boat.

Mr. O'Toole

I agree it is not a small boat.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Wyse)

Please avoid interrupting because everybody will get an opportunity to contribute to the debate.

Mr. O'Toole

This country and the Council are insisting that Spain will get realistic quotas which do not disrupt the percentage we get in the EC fisheries context nor will it be allowed upset the distribution key which took a long time, as Deputy Daly can tell his colleagues, to sort out within the context of the Common Fisheries Policy negotiations. That distribution key will still be intact. As the Deputy is aware, the TAC is based on scientific data which is strictly adhered to by the Commission in its proposals and by the Council in deciding tax and quotas.

Mr. Daly

The Minister for Foreign Affairs did not say that last night.

Mr. O'Toole

I want to refer to illegal fishing. Of course we have had problems with illegal fishing. I would like to compliment our Naval Service for the work they have been doing in that respect, but, as any fisherman can tell you, despite the success of the Naval Service, a lot of illegal fishing is still going on. As of now, we are depending for control purposes on our physical presence on the high seas to apprehend vessels that are fishing without licences — at the moment there are 106 licences operating west of us outside the box, granted not by this Government but by the EC — vessels which fish species they are not supposed to be fishing, or vessels which are fishing inside the box. This is illegal at the moment. These vessels are being apprehended and will continue to be apprehended by the Naval Service while they are in breach of the regulations.

The Government's position on the negotiations was given in this House on 6 and 7 March 1985. Spain has argued consistently against any exclusion. They want to be in from day one. We have said no. The negotiations taking place are being handled at two levels. Negotiations are taking place within the ten member state Council on which agreement must be reached before a negotiating position is put to the Spanish negotiators by the Presidency of the Council on behalf of the EC. It is not the Commission who negotiate in this case but the member states. The Commission are there in an advisory capacity, giving technical and other advice. Last Thursday morning at 2 a.m. for the first time the Spaniards agreed to a five year derogation. Up to that time they wanted entry from day one. Prior to that the Commission had proposed a seven year derogation period in respect of the Irish box and we have now brought the Council round to a unanimous position that the derogation being put to the Spaniards is ten years.

Mr. Daly

That was decided at the summit last December.

Mr. O'Toole

I am giving the up-to-date position of the European Foreign Ministers Council as of last Thursday morning and that was at the insistence of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and his Minister of State who were there. I am giving this information first hand——

Mr. Daly

That was agreed at the summit last December.

Mr. O'Toole

Is the Deputy prepared to accept that for the first time we have got agreement in Council on our stance, which has not changed? I am somewhat amused because three weeks ago 30 minutes after Deputy Daly sought 20 years as the bottom line, Deputy Lenihan sought 15 years. Now, three weeks later Fianna Fáil say they should never get in. It is time they got their act together.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. P. Gallagher

We agreed 200 miles——

Mr. O'Toole

The Deputy is talking about the economic zone.

Mr. P. Gallagher

Do not distort the facts.

Mr. O'Toole

When the Deputy mentions 200 miles he is talking about the EC economic zone.

Acting Chairman

The Minister has two minutes to conclude. Please do not interrupt.

Mr. O'Toole

On top of the ten year derogation which is being put as Council position at the insistence of this Government, there are restrictions on the numbers and species, and on accession the inspectorate which is now in place, complete with log books as from April fool's day——

Mr. H. Byrne

Appropriate.

Mr. O'Toole

I would not say it was appropriate. The inspectorate will have a right from 1 January 1986 if Spain succeeds in gaining accession by that time and the enlargement is completed, to go into Spanish ports, scrutinise records, demand to know where catches were caught, the volume of catches and so on, a power they do not have now. We now depend on our physical presence on the high seas. We do not have the follow-through which we have in respect of other EC member states, but we will have when the enlargement has taken place.

The North Sea has been mentioned. We have been accused of lying down and following the Danes, French and British to get away from an imposition of Spanish vessels in the North Sea. This is a total misnomer. At no time has a word been said by the Spaniards about the North Sea. They never fished in the North Sea. They are not now seeking that facility and they have no intention in the future of fishing in the North Sea. The question does not arise.

Mr. P. Gallagher

They have no traditional rights here.

Mr. O'Toole

They do not want to go in there.

Mr. Daly

Not yet.

Mr. O'Toole

The fact is that some day they may very well do so. As far as we are concerned, we would be in favour of such a move for very obvious reasons. We have not moved one iota——

Mr. Daly

Except backwards.

Mr. O'Toole

——from the original demand we made and through our insistence the Council of Ministers for Foreign Affairs have now come around in toto to our way of thinking. They put our ten year derogation demand last week to the Spanish negotiators and will be putting it tomorrow at some stage as a Council stance. If there is any move from that we will not accept it. Together with all the other controls that will be in place when they gain access, the best possible deal will be secured for our fishermen.

We are either for enlargement of the Community or we are not. I ask Fianna Fáil if they want to see the Community enlarged. If they do, there is a certain price that we must pay. If they do not, then let them stand up and say so.

Minister of State at the Department of Fisheries and Forestry (Mr. D'Arcy)

I welcome this debate. Although the negotiations are at a delicate stage, this debate could be helpful. While some wild statements were made by the Opposition some good ones were made as well. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry have stated fully the Government's position in relation to the difficult negotiations on Spain's accession to the EC. I do not propose to repeat what they said but there are a number of points I wish to refer to.

We are all aware of the size and effectiveness of the Spanish fleet. Everyone is concerned at the effect of enlargement because of the size of the Spanish fleet. It was suggested in some quarters that the entire Spanish fleet would head for Irish waters immediately Spain became a member of the EC. That is not so. It is the intention of the Government and of other Governments within the EC that the number of Spanish vessels which may fish in Community waters will be severely restricted. The most recent Presidency compromise which is before the Council would allow only a small fraction of the Spanish fleet to fish at any given time in Community waters. There will be a quota restriction and strict monitoring controls on Spanish fishing in our waters. It is important to note that Spanish access will be limited to a number of species and there will be no entitlement to quotas of species such as cod, haddock, whiting, plaice, mackerel and herring which are of particular interest to our fishing fleet.

Mr. H. Byrne

How can we guarantee that?

Mr. D'Arcy

These are the negotiations.

Mr. H. Byrne

It is guarantees that we want.

Mr. D'Arcy

We must not overlook the fact that Spanish entry has an advantage. It will provide an exceptionally useful outlet for Irish exports. This point has not been mentioned before. Fish consumption in Spain is at a high level. Demand cannot be met and has not been met for a number of years by the Spanish fleet. We have a foothold in the Spanish market for shellfish, salmon and hake. With the removal in due course of the duties and import restrictions the outlook for expanding exports from Ireland is bright.

There are two sides to this story. What we must concern ourselves with is how we maximise returns from fishing exports in the interest of the national economy and our fishermen. This Government have given top priority to securing export markets and the accession of Spain and Portugal re-inforces our determination to secure more and better markets for our fish in the future.

There are many positive aspects to the industry and we are working to develop them. We have given BIM a new and dynamic direction in relation to export markets and I am confident they will respond with the kind of market development which will secure the future for our fishermen. Spain and Portugal will be members of the EC and perhaps the advocates in Fianna Fáil of withdrawal by Ireland from the EC might see in such an action a logical Fianna Fáil solution to the preservation of fishing limits for the future.

Mr. G. Collins

That is a cheap snide remark.

Mr. D'Arcy

Unfortunately we in Government have tu deal with reality and that is why we are preparing ourselves for the battle of the market place where our fishing industry will make the kind of advance necessary to secure its future.

Mr. G. Collins

That was a cheap snide remark and should be withdrawn.

Mr. D'Arcy

We do not fear the accession of Spain and Portugal like the Opposition. We will bring home the best possible deal for our industry and will regard the expanded EC as a better and bigger potential market for our product. I have every confidence that this deal will be in the interest of our fishermen and I support it.

Mr. P. Gallagher

Hang your head in shame.

Mr. Sheehan

I praise the Ministers concerned for the manner in which they are dealing with the EC negotiations. I ask them to ensure that they get the best possible agreement for our industry. Our fishermen are not afraid of the Spanish fishermen, they never were and they never will be. They can and will match any challenge from the Spaniards——

Mr. P. Gallagher

If they are given the chance.

Mr. Sheehan

——provided they are properly equipped to do so. Under the proposed package Spanish boats will be excluded from the Irish fishing box for ten years and only a certain number of boats will be allowed to fish in the box from 1996 to 2002. I ask the Ministers concerned to negotiate the best deal possible and to demand special EC aid for us to build up our fishing fleet to Spanish status, that is to provide our fishermen with trawlers of over 100 feet in length and with 1,000 horsepower engines. I assure the Opposition that if our fishermen get the opportunity they will meet and beat the Spanish invasion threat.

Mr. H. Byrne

If.

Mr. Sheehan

It is essential to secure aid from the EC and it could be a very valuable bargaining asset to our Ministers in reaching a final agreement. The time has come to face reality as far as the fishing industry is concerned. If our fishermen are given boats which are of the same standard as their Spanish rivals it would allow them to fish from Monday to Friday in the rich fishing grounds within the 200 mile zone and why not Rockall and the North Sea?

I remind Deputy Walsh that there is a fishery rescue package in lhe form of an interest subsidy scheme of £l.2 million this year, thanks to the Minister for Fisheries. At least it is a step in the right direction. I was amazed at Deputy Daly's allegation last night that there was a total sellout of the Irish position in the negotiations with Spain and Portugal. I remind the Deputy that it was a Fianna Fáil Government, in which Deputy Daly had a mighty role to play, that sold the fishing industry down the river 12 years ago in EC negotiations. Why did Fianna Fáil not stand firm on behalf of the fishermen then? What steps did they take to keep the Danish, Dutch, French and German trawlers out of our fishing waters? Why did they capitulate on that occasion and allow fishing boats from those countries to fish in our coastal waters? Why did Deputy Lenihan, as Minister for Fisheries, in 1977 not pursue the issue of the 200 mile limit and protect the interests of Irish fishermen? He did not worry if EC boats fished up to the bridge of Athlone.

Mr. J. Walsh

Or Schull Pier.

Mr. Sheehan

He was not concerned if our fishery patrol service was not able to man the 200 mile zone. Why did he not make special arrangements with the EC to equip our patrol service to enable them to patrol that limit? I was amazed at the number of doubting Thomases on the other side of the House. I am amazed when I hear Deputy Walsh still talking about Schull Pier. He need have no worries aboul Schull Pier. That pier will he there, thanks to the Minister and thanks to the Coalition Government who had the courage to face up to the facts.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Sheehan, your time is up.

Mr. Sheehan

The only parly who ever sold Irish fisheries down the drain were the Fianna Fáil Party. Everybody knows that.

Mr. Coughlan

I welcome the opportunity to make a few brief points on Spanish accession to the EC. No matter what the Government say, Spanish accession poses a massive threat to our fishing industry, an industry which is in its infancy and is not capable of withstanding competition from the Spanish fleet at present. Our industry needs time and a great amount of financial assistance to make it competitive and to ensure its survival.

Spain's lishery strength is equal to 70 per cent of the fisheries in the ten EC member countries. This fishery regime is bound to pose a great threat not only to the industry in Ireland but also to the fishing stock and the fishing rights of the Common Market's maritime nations. Last night we were told by the Minister for Foreign Affairs that only 1 per cent of Spain's fishing fleet would be allowed to fish in the Irish box. That in itself is somewhere in the region of 100 to 175 trawlers.

Mr. O'Toole

Not in the Irish box. That is the 200 mile limit.

Mr. Coughlan

I take the Minister's point. It will still create terrible problems for us because they will monopolise our fishing. We have very few large trawlers. The Irish fleet at present consists almost exclusively of in-shore and middle distance trawlers which can rarely stay at sea for more than two or three days. They could not possibly compete with the more sophisticated trawlers which will be sent here by the Spaniards. I hope the Government are taking full cognisance of the facts and that they will make money available in a very short time to ensure that we are competitive. Many of our boats are old and some are obsolete. Unless financial aid is made available by the Government, the threat which is now posed will become a reality.

It is now clear that large sections of the northern Spanish fleet are openly operating illegally in our waters. From recent arrests and incidents off our coasts it would seem that those illegal activities are becoming more brazen, possibly in anticipation of Spanish entry to the EC. Even if Ireland, quite rightly, is committed politically to the accession of a democratic Spain, we should be putting maximum pressure on Madrid to guarantee that they will control this pirate fleet. There is no other word we can use for it. We need guarantees from the Spanish Government that they will move against trawlers now openly violating Community fishing regulations.

While our fishery protection services are excellent, they are still inadequate. We must protect our fishery grounds to the best of our ability. I do not think we are capable of protecting them at the moment. The Government would be justified in asking for financial aid from the EC to ensure that our fishery patrol vessels are increased in numbers. They will have to contend with an ever-increasing number of Spanish boats. The Minister said we could go to Spanish ports and monitor the amount of fish they catch. I find that very hard to take. It is not feasible. At the moment we cannot monitor the illegal fishing in our waters. Perhaps we will be afforded an opportunity to put observers on Spanish boats. Unless more vessels are made available for fishery protection, our stocks will be totally depleted. We need more information, but we also need stricter control. If we are to have effective controls we need more vessels.

It was stated here last night that our present patrols were capable of controlling fishing in the Irish box. I do not think that is true. That statement was made by a member of the Government but I do not think it can be substantiated. Our fishing industry is in its infancy. There are great opportunities in the industry for expansion especially on the processing side. I hope that in the very near future more finance will be made available and more opportunities afforded to industrialists to go into this very lucrative business. There would be job opportunities for many people if this line were pursued.

Mr. P. Gallagher

I should like to refer to a remark made by the Minister of State, Deputy O'Keeffe, about political opportunism on this side of the House. We in Fianna Fáil are the people who initiated a debate on the negotiations taking place with Spain and Portugal on their proposed accession to the EC. We have been realistic about this at all times. There has been no cover up on this side of the House. The Government have never made us aware at any time of what was happening or been prepared to meet with the industry, speak with them and get their opinions. They were prepared to tell the industry some weeks ago that our fishermen were catching too many mackerel off the west coast of Ireland and were to reduce the amount of catches, otherwise the quota would be filled before the end of March. Then we would not be good Europeans and would be flouting the regulations. There is no problem when the Spaniards are flouting the regulations, as they are now.

I will refer now to a remark which will go down in history as far as our fishermen are concerned. The Minister, Deputy D'Arcy, was asked by me in this House to try to correct the imbalance of the mackerel quota between the UK and here. He is on record in this House as saying that it was pointless looking for an increase of mackerel quotas when we could not sell the mackerel we have. If we have a Minister of State such as that, he is the first man whose resignation I am calling for tonight. However, I shall be calling for more resignations before my contribution is finished.

A few weeks ago I stated in this House, when we initiated this debate, that the proposed enlargement of the EC will have disastrous effects on our fishing industry. The Basque fishing fleet, 1 per cent or whatever it may be, will have a serious effect and imperil our whole fishing industry. It will jeopardise the future of 13,000 jobs in the poorer parts of this country.

This industry has a potential which can only be developed if the Government secure a realistic deal during the on-going negotiations with the Council of Ministers. We require a reasonable transitional period to allow the industry to reach the required state of development. Only then will we be able to compete with the major fishing industries, including the Spaniards.

At this juncture I should like to congratulate the fishing industry on its performance — the fishermen, processors and all those involved in the ancillary industries — for having done a tremendous job during very trying times. We are now being prevented from continuing to do this by the action of the Government who are completely out of touch with reality.

Mr. Sheehan

The fishermen were prevented by lack of a Fianna Fáil policy.

Mr. P. Gallagher

The Minister for Foreign Affairs says that if we accept Spanish entry into the EC we must accept that they have a right to fish up to 12 miles off our coast after the proposed 10 years. I ask the House and the Minister whether the Treaty of Rome considers exceptional cases. When we joined the European Community the protocol on Ireland, annexed at the time to that Treaty which we signed indicated that the fundamental objectives of the European Community included the steady improvement of living standards and working conditions of the peoples of the member states and the harmonious development of their economies by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and eliminating the backwardness of less favoured regions. It was stated that it was in the common interest that these objectives be attained by Ireland. At this time we are not having that opportunity. The industry will take a retrogade step as a result of the negotiations taking place. The morale in the industry was never lower — and this is before the negotiations are completed.

The Minister must be aware that the Spaniards can never be trusted at any time. They have flouted the law time and time again and a typical example of that is the "Sonia" affair. Over the last three years, 85 Spanish vessels have been apprehended within our waters. In 1983, fines totalling £1.3 million were imposed. These are the people whom we are going to welcome into our waters. £1.3 million is a small cost for fishing within those waters. All the Spanish boats pay into an insurance pool and the fines are paid out of that. When a boat is being apprehended by our naval vessels, this gives a greater opportunity to the other boats to fish while that naval vessel is tied up ashore. In addition, the Spanish Government are aware of this and are contributing to the insurance pool to help their fishermen flout the law and fish illegally within our waters. The Spanish are being offered in excess of £20 million to phase down their fleet, we are told, but the fact is that this sum, and more, is being given to modernise the fleet, to adapt and refurbish it and come to fish off the west coast of Ireland, the most prolific fishing grounds in the Common Market.

If necessary, we must invoke the powers of veto. There can be no question of abandoning the principles of veto. This is the only guarantee that we have to fully protect our interests. The fishing industry is a vitally important element of the economic and social life of the west and of all our coastal regions. Despite what one of the national papers said last Sunday, the industry is vital to the national economy and that of our poorer regions.

Mr. MacSharry

On a point of order, is it in order for civil servants present here to he handing briefs to Deputy McGinley, as they have done already via the Minister and I understand are now doing again?

Mr. D'Arcy

I object to that. The brief has been handed to me, not to Deputy McGinley. I should like to inform the Deputy of that fact. I am perfectly entitled to give it to Deputy McGinley if I want to.

Mr. G. Collins

The Minister is only an intermediary.

Mr. McGinley

I have my own brief, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. P. Gallagher

We will hear about the telegram later on. I referred to the necessity of invoking the veto and we will see if the Minister is prepared to do that. Why has it to be the west coast of Ireland all the time? Why not the North Sea? Why are we not as tough and prepared to hold out as the Danes have held out? The only reason the Spanish are not going up to the North Sea is that the Danes will not accept that. They will invoke the veto.

Mr. D'Arcy

That is wrong. The Deputy should get his facts straight.

Mr. P. Gallagher

The Minister will not suggest anything to us, because he is not aware of what is happening out there. He is given no responsibility whatsoever within the Department. All he is doing, coming from a coastal county, is selling the fishermen.

Mr. Sheehan

That is what the Deputy's party did.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Sheehan, please.

Mr. P. Gallagher

Reference has been made to the number of licences and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs said last night that these would be in two figures. I take it that is under 100. I put it to the Minister that under the base list in areas 5b, 6, 7 and 8, 150 boats will be licensed to fish. In the second list there will be in excess of 100 boats with the right to fish there. The Minister must remember that these licences are related to the horse power of each boat. The horse power in this case is 700 and if the horse power is reduced, then the number of boats can be increased to fish in these waters. They can fish at any time and that means that up to 250 boats can come in. The Minister tells us not to get excited about the Spanish armada, but what constitutes an armada if 250 boats do not?

We have been told time and time again that no quota species will be affected, that the Spaniards will not touch our mackerel, herring or any other quota species fish. Who believes the Spaniards? They will fish our mackerel and our herring and the other quota type species. With the prospect of the mackerel and herring stocks becoming depleted, we now should be developing our fishing of whiting and horse mackerel, but the Spaniards have been in a position to fish those types long before us. They have a quota for these and will have a quota for hake, monkfish, megrim, prawns, white pollock. We are being out-manoeuvred in Brussels. We require sufficient time and must ensure that at no time in the future can the Spaniards fish inside the 50 mile limit. It would have a detrimental effect on our industry.

Unfortunately, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry are not here at present, but I put it that they are completely abandoning our fishermen. There has been doom and gloom throughout the fishing industry during the last couple of weeks. Our fishermen are prepared to invest in boats in excess of 130 feet and as large as 200 feet to mix in with the Spaniards, but without any grant aid from the State or from Europe it is not possible. I do not see any effort on the part of our Government to obtain grant aid for boats in excess of 130 ft. The owners of these two boats of 200 ft. will not be given licences by the Government in order to fish and mix with the Spaniards. That is the type of attitude prevailing. Ten million pounds are being made available by private enterprise here. If this were some foreigner coming in here he would not be treated in this manner by the present Government and Ministers. This is the case throughout all ports, from Burtonport to Killybegs, to Greencastle, throughout the west coast, along the south and east coasts, we can hear the death knell in the distance, the bells ringing as far as they are concerned. Let no Minister or Deputy from the Government side of the House tell us that this is a good deal as far as the fishermen are concerned. The Government have abandoned them, leaving them in mid ocean, out in the Atlantic, without even being prepared to throw them a lifebelt.

A rescue package was introduced some weeks ago to help owners of boats in difficulties. Indeed An Bord lascaigh Mhara are not yet aware of the finer points of that package. Certainly the overall percentage of boats able to avail of this package will be very small. I put it to the Minister that the amount of money the Government are making available for this rescue package is in the region of £70,000 only and not £3 million as he is endeavouring to suggest.

Mr. D'Arcy

We never stated £3 million, £l.l million. The Deputy should get his facts right.

Mr. P. Gallagher

The original demand was for 20 years and that has yet to be contradicted in this House, and there was to be no access within the Irish box.

The whole future of the industry is at risk. Even at this eleventh hour the Government should categorically state that the Spanish demands or indeed the compromise of the chairman of the Council of Ministers, Mr. Andreotti is not acceptable to us. The question should be let go to the Summit and, if it is not agreed there, then let us wait, let the Spaniards wait for a further period after 1 January 1986 if we are to protect the interests of our fishermen. The Government have an obligation and a duty to protect the interests of our fishermen hut they are selling them down the river.

This is the second sell out. They did it some time ago when they could not obtain a reasonable quota. I contend that the people who are negotiating on our behalf in Europe are not capable, are being out-manoeuvred by Mr. Moran, the Spanish Foreign Minister. We must ensure cast iron protection for our fishing stocks. We cannot yield on the 20 year transitional period, with no entry into the box, if our fledgling fleet is to develop. It is at present on its knees. I have every confidence in the fishermen, in the industry, in the processors that we will get off our knees, that we shall compete with the best if we receive the assistance and support of the Government. In the past the Spaniards have shown scant regard for the future of our industry. We have been out-manoeuvred by them time and time again. They are much tougher negotiators. I put it to the Minister present this evening that in the middle of the negotiations, Mr. Moran did not leave Brussels and head for Madrid but our Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Fisheries — when the negotiations were at their height — did what no good captain does, abandoned the ship. They flew back to Dublin leaving the negotiations in the hands of a junior Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe. Let them contradict that. They were the laughing stock of Europe that evening when they left, ran from it all, leaving the sinking ship which no captain would ever do. Let that be contradicted.

Mr. D'Arcy

Rubbish.

Mr. Sheehan

Rubbish.

Mr. P. Gallagher

Let us adopt the stance of the Spaniards in their clear, determined follow-through, in stark contrast to the foggy attitude of this Government. As a member of this party said at the time, during our period of the Presidency, all we did was to cobble together an agreement to placate the other members. We had a lever at that time but we did not use it.

I want to refer again to this famous 1 per cent which, in terms of percentages, sounds relatively small, it being contended that we have absolutely nothing to worry about — the 175 boats which I maintain will be 250 boats, or in excess of that figure, coming into these waters. Then the Minister of State has the audacity of perhaps innocence to tell us that we have a large market in Spain, that there is tremendous potential there. The only potential there is in Spain is to sell a few cray fish in the north of Spain. If the Minister believes that these boats come and catch our fish to sell them to some other country, not exploiting the so called markets in Spain, then he is not capable of holding his present position.

Mr. D'Arcy

Unfortunately the Deputy does not know what he is talking about.

Mr. P. Gallagher

I am surprised at the absence of Labour members of the present Government who profess at all times to want to protect our national resources. This was an opportunity for them to stand up and be counted. It is ironic that in this House this evening, last evening and every other evening there was no Labour member sufficiently interested to come in. I believe they are embarrassed and ashamed of the deal being done at present, that they do not want to be involved or seen in here. It is time they stood up and protected the interests of the ordinary fisherman and the 13,000 people employed in the industry.

To give an indication of the potential of the industry I should say that in 1978 landings amounted to 76,000 tonnes, which increased in 1983 to 200,000 tonnes. Our exports increased between 1978 to 1982 by 215 per cent and employment in the industry between 1976 and 1983 increased by 35 per cent. There is a natural progression there and, with the proper agreement, that figure of 13,000 could be doubled with added value on shore. There are many people with projects at present in the pipeline which I believe they will abandon. There are many people who are prepared to add value to the fish being landed here. It has been suggested we should have done this long ago. After all the industry is only in its infancy. These people should be given the full support and co-operation of the Government.

I might refer to the size of the Spanish fleet, which is greater than the total Community fleet. The fact that they have come in here illegally points to the fact that when they can come in legally, there will be no way in which we will be able to protect our coast line. We are not in a position to do so at present and we will not be in a position to do so then with the area that will have to be covered. At no time have we been told that more money will be provided for protection vessels. We shall have to depend on the same protection vessels. There is no question of us receiving £26,000 which is being made available to the Spaniards. There is no possibility of that being made available to our fishing industry to update, refurbish and grant aid the purchase of larger boats.

I do not despair this evening because this motion could be carried by the House. Four Deputies of this House sent a telegram to the Minister last week, Deputies McGinley, Kenny, Coogan and Begley, saying: "Stand firm against the demands of the Spaniards to fish in Irish waters", four members from the Minister's own party urging him to stand firm against the Spaniards, perhaps hoping that the rest of us would not hear it. Deputy McGinley, a colleague from my constituency whom I shall respect after I see him voting this evening, said sa sreang-scéal go gcuirfidh na Spáinnigh deireadh le tionscal na n-iascairí —"stand fim against the Spaniards because they will put an end to our industry". I say to those people this evening: be sincere, look after the interests of your constituents whom you represent and they will look after you. Not only are we talking about the 13,000 people on the east coast but we are talking also about their friends and relations throughout the country. However, this deal may be sufficient to bring down the Government. The various Ministers will hang their heads in shame every time they look out on the Atlantic and realise they have sold out the fishing industry, though this is not the first time they have done so.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please. Deputy Gallagher must conclude now.

Mr. P. Gallagher

The Government are selling out the industry again.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Gallagher must resume his seat.

Mr. McGinley

As one of the signatories to the telegram referred to, I confirm that we did congratulate the Ministers on the stand they have adopted since the negotiations commenced in Brussels. We congratulate them on how successful they have been so far in those negotiations. We referred to the outrageous demands of the Spanish Government in seeking immediate access to Irish waters on their accession to the Community. We are not disappointed. I am sure if Deputy Sheehan had been in Dublin on the morning the telegram was sent, he would have signed it also.

Mr. Sheehan

My constituents are well looked after by our Minister.

Mr. McGinley

All of us here realise the potential threat posed by the Spaniards to our fishing industry. I use the word "potential" advisedly because the negotiations being conducted by the Ministers will avoid a catastrophe. The Spaniards have a fishing fleet that is bigger than the combined fishing fleets of the existing EC countries. Consequently, they are in a position to cause immense damage to our industry. However, we must accept that sooner or later both Spain and Portugal will accede to the Community. That is a political reality. I cannot see the EC developing further. I do not visualise any extra finance being made available. The Germans are on record as saying that they will not contribute any extra moneys to the Community until the question of the accession of Spain and Portugal is dealt with. Within the next year or earlier both of these countries will be members of the Community, but we must fight against their demand for immediate access to our fishing waters. Deputy Gallagher says that our case should be treated as exceptional. The fact that Spain is not being granted immediate access to our waters is proof that we are being treated exceptionally.

Mr. Sheehan

Hear, hear.

Mr. McGinley

I trust that during negotiations agreement will be reached whereby the Irish fishing industry will be given time to develop. When the Spaniards realised that immediate access would not be granted they were prepared to accept a five or seven year transition period, but now a ten year period is being talked of. If we use those ten years prudently and invest adequately in our fishing industry, we will have an industry that will be sufficient to protect our interest. I would demand also that there be a severe limitation on the number of boats allowed enter our waters after the transition period and, most important, that there be stringent controls on the number of Spanish vessels allowed in. Deputy Gallagher said there was no consultation with the Opposition on the question of Spanish accession. I would point out to the Deputy that before Christmas the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation of the EC discussed Spanish accession and no doubt there were Fianna Fáil members present at that meeting. The Minister and his Minister of State have been very active in pursuing new markets for mackerel abroad, especially in Africa. Only last year 20,000 tonnes of mackerel were stored in Donegal but there is very little stored there now.

Mr. D'Arcy

There is none there now.

Mr. G. Collins

The Government must accept that there is very genuine concern in regard to the future of our fishing industry. This is not merely the view of people on this side of the House. It is the view, not only of Deputies in this party who represent constituencies in which fishing is a major activity, but of the representatives of the fishermen and of their organisation. They realise that this is a particularly delicate and tricky time for them. They realise that their livelihoods are at stake. Their concern must be accepted by every Member of the House.

There has been very limited discussion in the House of the problem for our fishing industry that will result from the accession of Spain and Portugal, but Spain in particular, to full membership of the Community. One would have thought that plenty of Government time would have been given in the House for discussion of such a problem but for some strange reason which is confusing to say the least, the Government have refused to give any Government time for a discussion of this important topic, I am chairman of the all party Dáil Committee who examine EC secondary legislation. Deputy Manning is vice-chairman of that committee while some of those people sitting in these benches are members of the committee. The committee had a worthwhile discussion on this topic. We produced a unanimous report and unanimously we requested Government time for discussion of the subject in the House but we were refused that request. Whatever limited debate has taken place on this matter, a matter that affects the livelihood of 13,500 people, it took place only as a result of the efforts of our spokesman, Deputy Daly, who raised the matter during Private Members' Business, and of others who, through hard work by way of parliamentary question, succeeded in having the matter raised now and again. This is not good enough. This Parliament has an important part to play if it is to be representative of the people. Unfortunately, there was no Government initiative in having a debate begun. Of course, there is a very heavy and grave responsibility on this Government, and in particular on the Minister for Fisheries and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, to protect our fishing industry. There are many good reasons for this, not the least of which is the question of the livelihood of the 13,500 people engaged in the industry. I regret that our Government allowed this serious matter to be pushed to the end of the queue, to be left until the final moment for decision. This was a major tactical error on their part. Now we find ourselves under extreme pressure on many fronts, from other member countries with other interests who are trying to force the pace so as to finalise negotiations.

Mr. O'Toole

Spain is under pressure, too.

Mr. G. Collins

I will come to that in a moment. A major error was made by the Government, and especially by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and by the Minister for Fisheries who was advising him, in allowing the fisheries question to be left until the end of the day. On one occasion here during Question Time my party leader and I tried to elicit a definite assurance from the Minister for Foreign Affairs that all negotiations on this serious matter would be concluded before Spain would be allowed accede to full membership of the Community but even then the Minister refused to give any such assurance. Even at this late stage, I say to the Minister and the House that we must not allow the threat of the West German Government to withhold the increase in VAT and in own resources to force our hand at the cost of the welfare of our fishing industry. Naturally they have not the same interest in fishing as we have. They do not depend on it to the same degree as we depend on it and it is not going to cause any major economic upheaval in West Germany if our fishing industry collapses.

Of course there is another reason why that pressure is coming from West Germany. It is because there are outside influences coming to the surface within the EC. The EC is an economic alliance, not a military alliance. I am talking about the influences coming from NATO.

We know that a short time ago Spain became a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation which is a military alliance. The Minister suggested to me that there were other pressures on Spain. Of course there are internal political problems in Spain regarding whether Spain should continue to be a full member of NATO. That is the political problem that Prime Minister Gonzales is facing because in the run-up to the election he made certain statements that now he probably wishes he had not made. It is important to West Germany from a political point of view that Spain should stay in NATO, so much so that now, irrespective of the consequences to us of Spain's membership of the EC, they are prepared to put pressure on us.

I say to the Minister that on every occasion when we had the opportunity in this House in the past 18 months we warned of the pressure that would come as a result of the club of NATO and its importance to our colleagues in the EC which I stress once again is an economic alliance and not a military alliance. That is unfair pressure on us and it was not helpful to our cause recently when the Prime Minister said that if Spain's accession to the EC were slowed down much longer he would not be able to deliver on keeping Spain as a full member of NATO.

We did not need the contribution last night from the Minister for Foreign Affairs on what is involved for us as a nation with regard to full membership of the EC. We fully appreciate and understand what is involved. This party when they were in Government, against part of the present Government and in particular the Labour Party, in the early seventies, were involved in very successful negotiations regarding our accession to the EC. We fully understand the principles of membership and our obligations. We support fully in principle the development of the EC for the obvious, simple and selfish reason that it is vital to our existence that the Community should go from strength to strength. We want to improve it but we also say that the present state of our fishing industry must be considered as it is at the present time. All of us accept that our fishing industry has a long way to go before its full potential is reached. We accept that heavy financial investment has to be made if it is to survive and to develop. Now is the time for the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry and the Minister for Foreign Affairs to be present at the negotiating table in the EC. They should ensure that we get all the aids available for the development of our fishing industry if we are to withstand the pressures that will come on us when Spain becomes a full member of the EC. Now is the time to do that, not afterwards. If we look for help afterwards the strength of our bargaining position will have diminished greatly. We have not had any assurances that our fishing industry will get the necessary financial commitment if we are to withstand such pressures.

Spain has a fleet of 17,500 fishing boats, a colossal fleet. We know that much of the fleet requires heavy investment to bring it up to the necessary standard to be effective. Is it not obvious that with Spain's accession to the EC it will be a major drain on whatever resources are available for the development of their fleet and at our cost?

Mr. O'Toole

Additional funds will be available.

Mr. G. Collins

I should like the Minister to tell us what aids we can expect before Spain enters the EC in order to develop our industry. He should tell us what aids will be guaranteed after Spain's entry for the development of our fishing fleet to bring it to the stage we would like.

Mr. O'Toole

Spanish aids are outside the current levels.

Mr. Sheehan

Fianna Fáil should have thought about that 12 years ago.

Mr. G. Collins

There is a genuine fear not only on this side of the House but among the fishermen that they will not be able to withstand the pressures the Spanish fishing fleet will put on us. This has been said time and again not only by us but by the elected representatives of fishermen in their own organisation. I have read carefully what the chairman of their organisation, Mr. Joe Maddocks, has said, I have read his accusations against the Government and of his displeasure at the way negotiations have been handled. I have read and have heard what the secretary of that organisation, Mr. Frank Doyle, has said. The one man I miss on this occasion is Mr. Joey Murren. He used to be the voice of the fishermen and I do not understand why he is not talking up now.

Mr. McGinley

He is engaged in working on behalf of fishermen.

Mr. G. Collins

Is he working for fishermen in a voluntary capacity? Is he an unfettered spokesman for the fishermen now when he should be, as he was when Fianna Fáil were in office?

Mr. McGinley

He is doing excellent work for the fishermen.

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy would do well to talk to fishermen in County Donegal. It might have been better for the fishermen if Mr. Murrin never took the 30 pieces of silver.

Mr. McGinley

He is the best chairman the fishermen could have.

Mr. O'Toole

On a point of order, that kind of allegation against somebody who is not here to defend himself is absolutely disgraceful and it should be withdrawn.

An Ceann Comhairle

We should try to preserve standards here. We should not attack people who are not here. Somebody threw across the floor of the House an accusation about 30 pieces of silver. That should be withdrawn.

Mr. G. Collins

The same gentleman has taken a job and is receiving a reward for it—

Mr. O'Toole

A sum of £600 a year.

Mr. G. Collins

One thing is certain, that whatever reward he is getting for it has closed his lips at this most important time for the fishermen. Perhaps the reason he got the job was to prevent him from being the active spokesman he would wish to be——

Mr. O'Toole

On a point of order, may I repeat my request to the Chair? A serious allegation has been made by the Deputy against somebody who is not present to defend himself. I am now asking the Ceann Comhairle to ask the Deputy to withdraw that statement.

An Ceann Comhairle

I heard an accusation of 30 pieces of silver. I do not know who made it. It should be withdrawn.

Mr. G. Collins

I have one and a half minutes left. I have one more allegation to make and one more accusation to make in this time; it is against somebody who is in this House. That accusation is against the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, who, for some strange reason which has not been explained to us, left the negotiations the other evening in Brussels and left two young Ministers of State in charge. God knows——

Mr. O'Toole

They are very capable——

Mr. G. Collins

——if one is to judge the strength of those Ministers of State in negotiating on behalf of the fishermen by their contribution to this debate either tonight or last night, it is easy to see why Mr. Frank Doyle and——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time is up.

Mr. G. Collins

——and Mr. Joe Maddocks of the fisherman's organisation are totally disillusioned and have accused the Minister of selling out on them.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. P. Gallagher

They sold our land and they are now selling our waters.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 66.

Tá

• Allen, Bernard.
• Barnes, Monica.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Myra.
• Barry, Peter.
• Begley, Michael.
• Bell, Michael.
• Bermingham, Joe.
• Birmingham, George Martin.
• Bruton, John.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Liam.
• Carey, Donal.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Collins, Edward.
• Conlon, John F.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Cooney, Patrick Mark.
• Cosgrave, Liam T.
• Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
• Coveney, Hugh.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crowley, Frank.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Deasy, Martin Austin.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Donnellan, John.
• Dowling, Dick.
• Doyle, Avril.
• Doyle, Joe.
• Dukes, Alan.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• FitzGerald, Garret.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Glenn, Alice.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hegarty, Paddy.
• Hussey, Gemma.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Keating, Michael.
• Kelly, John.
• Kenny, Enda.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McLoughlin, Frank.
• Manning, Maurice.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Molony, David.
• Naughten, Liam.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East)
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Brien, Willie.
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• O'Toole, Paddy.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Prendergast, Frank.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Ryan, John.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
• Skelly, Liam.
• Spring, Dick.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
• Yates, Ivan.

Níl

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Andrews, David.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Byrne, Seán.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Conaghan, Hugh.
• Connolly, Ger.
• Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Daly, Brendan.
• De Rossa, Proinsias.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Fahey, Francis.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Foley, Denis.
• Gallagher, Denis.
• Gallagher, Pat Cope.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Hilliard, Colm.
• Hyland, Liam.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Leonard, Tom.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Mattie.
• Brennan, Paudge.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Browne, John.
• Leyden, Terry.
• Lyons, Denis.
• McCarthy, Seán.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McEllistrim, Tom.
• Mac Giolla, Tomás.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Morley, P.J.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West)
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Dea, William.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Edmond.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• Ormonde, Donal.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Browne.

Amendment declared carried.

Motion, as amended, put and agreed to.