Having had time to deliberate on this I now find that the fears we had are unfounded. The only people involved under the section are those pursuant to section 4 (3). If we look back at the section it will be seen that the only people involved are those who have custody of the bull or the owner or any person having charge or management of lands or premises on which the bull is found. I am happy with that and it clears the air on a valid point made by Deputy Noonan.
Control of Bulls for Breeding Bill, 1985: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 21:
In page 5, lines 32 to 38, to delete subsection (3).
(Limerick West): In view of what the Minister has said, I am prepared to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 8 agreed to.
SECTION 9.
Amendments Nos. 22 to 25, inclusive, not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 9 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): I agree with the amount of the fine not exceeding £1,000. I know it is at the discretion of the court, but does the Minister not consider that £1,000 is excessive?
No. We are dealing with people who deliberately do something wrong. That is the maximum fine. If the provisions in the Bill are to be adhered to, the deterrents must be tough.
(Limerick West): Where there is a conviction the permit holder would have to surrender the permit to the Minister. What happens to the permit and what happens to the bull?
Where there is fraud and the bull which is found on the premises is not the bull for whom the permit has been allowed, the permit for that animal is not valid and must be withdrawn.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Question proposed: "That section 10 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): In subsection (2) the people who can be convicted are set out. They are the owner of the bull, the person to whom the bull had been lent, hired or leased or the person who is the owner of, or the person having the charge or management of the lands in which the bull is kept and who does not establish that the bull was on the land without his knowledge or consent. If the owner of the bull is known, this should be sufficient instead of convicting the person to whom the bull is hired, leased or lent or indeed the owner of the land concerned.
If the bull were lawfully and properly leased to another farmer and if, for the sake of argument, that farmer decided to switch bulls or to contravene the law in some other way, the person leasing the bull is responsible. The same would apply to a person on whose land the bulls were.
(Limerick West): Subsection (4) refers to “an approved organisation”. Is the Minister referring to the breed society or to some other organisation?
I am referring to the breed society.
(Limerick West): Nobody else is involved?
No.
(Limerick West): Would the secretary or someone representing that organisation furnish proof that the bull is a bull within the meaning of the Act?
If he says the bull is not included in their herd book, the onus is on the owner of the bull to prove it is.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 11.
Question proposed: "That section 11 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): We referred to this section earlier in regard to regulations. Is it the normal procedure to lay regulations before both Houses for a period of 21 days?
Yes.
(Limerick West): If necessary, may they be debated in the House?
Yes.
(Limerick West): Would such a debate be at the discretion of the Government or could it be demanded by a Member of the House?
I am sure that if a Member of the House wished to raise any point in regard to the regulations, we could have a debate in the House.
(Limerick West): Would the full details of the regulations be outlined in the document?
Yes.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 12 and 13 agreed to.
SECTION 14.
Question proposed: "That section 14 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): When will the Bill come into operation?
With everybody's co-operation, I hope it will be in operation in the autumn.
Is it intended to take on extra people to ensure that the Bill will be effective?
That is a more suitable question for Fifth Stage.
Question put and agreed to.
Title agreed to.
As there are no amendments on Report Stage, we will move to the Fifth Stage.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."
I will now repeat the question I asked earlier. Is it intended to take on extra people to ensure that the Bill will be effective and, if so, when will such personnel be appointed?
We do not propose to take on any extra staff. The Bill is so designed that existing staff should be able to cope with it.
Because there was a necessity for this Bill, the Minister knows that if it is to be implemented properly more staff are needed.
I will allow that as a question.
That is our decision and we will be in a position to see that everything is in order.
Question put and agreed to.