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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Jun 1985

Vol. 359 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Health Services: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann condemns (a) the failure of the Government in many instances to meet their statutory obligation to provide medical attention for persons in need of it; (b) the withdrawal of medical cards from persons who should be entitled to them; (c) the closing down of hospital wards; (d) the wasteful delay in opening Beaumont hospital; and (e) the general rundown of vital health and welfare services in every area.

Since this Government came to power we have alerted the House on numerous occasions to the serious consequences that would arise from the policies they were pursuing in administering the health services. The Government chose to ignore the warning and now every health board is in crisis and people, particularly the less well off, are suffering a degree of hardship unknown in the country for the past 30 years.

Not one health board was able to meet their financial commitments in 1984 and the situation has deteriorated seriously during the current year, the direct result of the Minister's actions. Every Member of this House, and particularly those who are members of health boards, are aware of the serious situation. They know that it is the less well off, the elderly, the unemployed and the handicapped who are suffering most. This is the result of actions of the Government who promised on coming into office — I will quote from their document, the Joint Programme for Government:

In carrying through this programme of reform we shall ensure that the existing level and quality of health care will be maintained. In particular, care must be taken to ensure that any adjustments do not militate against the less well off.

Certainly the reverse has been the case because it is the less well off who have suffered. There has been an unprecedented reduction in the level of services in acute hospitals, in long stay hospitals and particularly in community care services. The health boards are in a state of crisis. They have done their best to provide health services within their reduced allocations.

In his amendment the Minister says the Government have provided £1,071 million in the current year for health services but if inflation is taken into account the figure should have been £1,132 million. In other words, there has been a cutback of 5 ½ per cent in the allocation for health services since this Government came to office. This is the cause of the problems. It is the reason the health boards and the voluntary hospitals are in a state of crisis. The Government have not given sufficient funding to ensure that these institutions can administer the health services as they should be administered.

From reading an answer to a question I put to the Minister on 19 February 1985 it can be deduced that there has been a considerable reduction in the allocation to each health board. The North Western Health Board have had a reduction in real terms of 6.7 per cent in the past three years. The Western Health Board suffered a reduction of 6.6 per cent, the Mid-Western Health Board a reduction of 5.9 per cent, the Midland Health Board a reduction of 5.6 per cent, the North Eastern Health Board a reduction of 5.1 per cent, the South Eastern Health Board a reduction of 4.7 per cent, the Southern Health Board a reduction of 1.6 per cent, and the Eastern Health Board a reduction in real terms of 1.2 per cent. When one takes into account the rapidly expanding population in the Eastern and the Southern Health Board areas, it is obvious that the reductions of 1.6 per cent and 1.2 per cent are not a true reflection of the real situation in those two health board areas.

For the first time, the health boards this year were given an allocation to provide payment for the general medical services. They were informed that any excess in expenditure on the GMS would have to be met from their overall allocation. They were also told that if they saved anything they could use the savings elsewhere in administering the health services. However, there will not be a saving in the allocation for the GMS this year. In fact, each health board is in a serious situation as a result of having to fund the GMS. Previously it was funded from central funds through the general payments board but this year the health boards are obliged to fund the service from the extra allocation given to them by the Minister.

A week ago I submitted a question and today I received an answer. Question No. 591 on today's Order Paper asked the Minister for Health "the estimated overexpenditure on the GMS in each health board area in the current year; if it is intended to correct the deficit, and if he will make a statement on the matter". I received the following answer:

The provision in Subhead G3 of the Health Estimate in respect of the expenses of the General Medical Services (Payments) Board is £93 million in the current year. This represents a 7 per cent increase on the provision for 1984, i.e. £86,681 million. The provision was based mainly on an estimate of the numbers eligible for general medical services and on reasonable average levels of visiting and prescribing by general practitioners involved in the services. I am concerned that the visiting and prescribing rates have shown an increase in the early months of this year, and unless the situation is corrected, problems may arise in funding the scheme. The question of the measures which might appropriately be taken is at present under active consideration.

The answer to my question explains many of the problems because I was able to find out that the estimated over-expenditure by the health boards is £8.04 million. In the North Eastern Health Board the projected deficit at this time is £1 million. The fact that it was not possible for the Department to give me that information is an indication that they are unaware of the problems facing the health boards. They do not appear to be in contact with the boards because I am sure they would have been only too willing to give the Department the information in view of the serious situation that exists.

The manner in which the question was answered and the attitude and approach of the Minister to the health boards is probably a contributory factor to the very serious situation of the health boards. The expected deficit in the running of the general medical services will be over £8 million for 1985. That leaves the health boards with three alternatives. The first is to save money from other services, which is impossible in view of cutbacks, because all the other services in the health board areas are suffering as well. The second alternative is to allow the general medical services to collapse when the allocation for the current year has been spent. It has been suggested to me that in certain health boards areas that could happen in the middle of November, that the health boards would not be in a position to pay either doctors or pharmacists for their services from the middle of November to the end of the year. Their third option is to curtail the level of service. This appears to be the only practical option as a result of the new system of payments. It would appear that this is what is happening in all the health board areas from the information I am receiving from my colleagues in this House and those on health boards.

In a letter to the chief executive officers of the health boards of 30 April 1985 it was pointed out that there would be no increase in the allocation for general medical services in the current year irrespective of whether or not there was a deficit. The letter detailed negotiations at present in progress with the medical practitioners and with the pharmaceutical industry. The letter continues to say:

In the short term, however, pending the outcome of these various negotiations, a significant contribution to cost containment can be made by health boards themselves through their control of the numbers covered by medical cards.

That is telling the health boards to have a stricter interpretation, in other words, that people who would normally receive medical cards from the health boards will not now receive them.

I might continue to quote the letter:

Each additional person covered by a medical card will cost a health board nearly £80 a year on average. The vigorous application of the guidelines for medical cards in accordance with the standardised procedures agreed in 1983, following the report of a working group established by the Department, would help to secure control of numbers. Applicants whose incomes exceed the guidelines should be issued with cards only where it is clear that hardship would otherwise arise. Equally, control of numbers rests upon effective review procedures to ensure that cards do not continue to be held by those no longer eligible. The issue of cards for the shortest realistic period and their review by the due date should ensure a continuing turnover of partients within the medical card population. It may well be that this would produce a further significant reduction in the number of eligible patients and thus ease the problem of funding.

We would all agree that medical cards should not be issued to persons who are not entitled to them for one reason or another. Equally we would all agree that the CEO's throughout the health boards should decide on the guidelines from year to year. I believe that the guidelines are too low and that they should take account of statutory deductions. I gave an example in this House before of a man with four or five children who had a gross income of £145 and whose net pay after PRSI and tax were deducted amounted to £112 which left him ineligible for a medical card even though the £112 was well inside the guidelines for a married man with three or four children. While we all accept that there has to be guidelines, what we are now saying is that the rigorous investigation, the manner in which this letter from the Minister's Department is being dealt with by the boards means that people who would normally receive a medical card will not now receive one. We are concerned that there are many people, particularly those in greatest need—not necessarily those with the lowest income but those who are just outside the limit of the guidelines — who are not receiving medical cards because of the method of investigation, and who are not in a position to provide medical care for themselves.

It is significant that in four of the eight health boards the number of medical cards has dropped considerably since the Minister came into office—the Midland, the Mid-Western, the North Western and the Western. When one considers that we are in recessionary times, with massive unemployment and increasing redundancy, it is extraordinary that the number of people covered by medical cards has been reduced in any health board area.

A rigorous investigation has been carried out. Persons who are unemployed have their income taken into account on the basis of their P60 for the previous year which does not always take account of their present income. Redundancy money is taken into account in assessing eligibility — the small amount of redundancy money that a person would receive was not always taken into account, so that is something new. Many people find themselves denied a service which they cannot reasonably be expected to afford because of insufficient funding by the present Government. It is not the fault of the health boards because they were confronted with this situation. They were told that in 1985 they would be responsible for financing the general medical services. They were given an allocation and told they would have to finance the services from other sources if they had not sufficient funds in their allocation. As everybody knows, with the cutbacks, there is no other source within the health boards from which to find funding.

There are over 80,000 persons on the waiting list for a dental service, over 40,000 of whom are children. For example, there are 10,000 children on the waiting list in Kerry and 9,000 children on the waiting list in the Carlow-Kilkenny community care area. This is an intolerable situation, to have young children needing fillings on a waiting list who, by the time they are seen by a dentist, will have to have teeth extracted. How any Minister or indeed any Member on the Government side of the House could be satisfied with that level of service and could support the amendment submitted by the Minister is a mystery to me. It is easy to quantify the dental service because the figures are there in terms of the waiting lists. There is also the fact that the ad hoc dental scheme has been abolished in practically every community care area, which is an indication of the serious situation obtaining. There are community care areas where children only will receive treatment: adults will not receive treatment, except expectant mothers and handicapped persons. The reality is that those only — irrespective of their income, whether they have a medical card, a pension, a supplementary allowance or anything else — who can afford to pay for a service will receive it. There has been no public service available to many people since this Government came into office.

The sight testing scheme has been abolished in many community care areas, which means there are now many persons in the community who are unable to make provision for dental service or sight testing. These people have no access to such services at present. For example, a widow with two children with a medical card receiving £67 a week made representations to me about her 15 years old daughter who had a number of precarious top teeth in the front. No service was available to those people because the relevant health board did not have the funding to provide the necessary dental service.

It is estimated that there are approximately 500 beds due to be closed in coming months as a result of the cutbacks. This is as a result of the directive from the Minister to the health boards requesting a reduction in the number of staff employed, overtime and locum cover. For example, in the kidney unit attached to the Meath and St. James's Hospitals all the beds for those services have been closed in St. James's Hospitals and 15 have been closed in the Meath. The waiting list has gone from 148 in May 1984 to 275 in May 1985. The waiting list has doubled in one year. This has put tremendous pressure on the staff of the hospital and must create a risk for patients. I quoted in this House a letter from a consultant in a kidney unit in this city in which he outlined the case of a young man bleeding from his kidney who could not be accommodated immediately because 40 beds were closed at that time and in which he stated that he hoped to get the man in as soon as possible. That was a potentially very serious condition and because 40 beds were closed the surgeon could not accommodate him.

At a meeting of the Southern Health Board in Cork yesterday when an allegation was made that patients prematurely discharged from the hospital had died as a result of being discharged too soon, the chief executive officer pointed out that the board were being forced by the Department to leave unfilled two out of every three vacancies.

That is not true. The embargo does not apply in the health services.

I am quoting from a report of the meeting in the Cork Examiner and they quoted what the CEO said.

The usual nonsense.

It is all right to say the embargo does not apply, but the reality is that the Minister pointed out to the health boards that two out of every three vacancies should be left unfilled.

(Interruptions.)

When the Minister met the CEO's and the chairman of the health board in Newbridge last November he pointed out a number of options to them as to what they might do, and told them if they could find the money elsewhere they could fill the vacancies.

(Interruptions.)

The health boards depend on the Minister and his Department for the money, so they cannot find the money elsewhere.

(Interruptions.)

I will not have interruptions from either side of the House.

On numerous occasions the Minister stated that there had been no redundancies in the health services, but many vacancies have been left unfilled and this amounts to the same thing. In one hospital in this city a patient waited 15 hours in the casualty department to gain admission. There are currently 3,000 patients on the waiting list of that hospital for outpatient treatment.

Recently, an eminent surgeon in Dublin found it necessary to write a letter to The Irish Times pointing out the serious difficulties and delays in admitting emergencies and urgent cases to hospital. He stated that in one hospital on the same morning there were eight emergency patients lying in the casualty department with no available beds for their admission. These included a person with coronary thrombosis, a person with a fractured leg, a person with a head injury and a person suffering from urgent pneumonia, and all had been over 12 hours in the casualty waiting urgent admission. It is only in the last two years that such a thing has ever happened.

He has withdrawn the whole thing since then.

That was an eminent surgeon in this city.

(Interruptions.)

If we are orderly the debate will be more effective.

One of our largest psychiatric hospitals. Our Lady's Hospital in Cork, begins a series of ward closures this week as a result of Government cutbacks. It is estimated that 12 wards out of 40 will be closed for the summer months. In Galway in the Regional Hospital in Merlin Park 287 beds will be closed for the months of July and August, causing problems in terms of the waiting list for both in-patient attention and out-patient services. In Limerick a renal dialysis unit has not been opened as a result of the cutbacks. In St. Lurke's Hospital a new very advanced chemotherapy machine or a radiotherapy machine is not in use although it has been there since 1984.

The Minister's record since coming to office has been of cutbacks. There has not been development in the services. The Minister wrote to our health board and wished to know what plans they had to close and dispose of the local hospital in Monaghan before he would sign the contract for the building of Cavan Hospital. The Minister closed the maternity unit in Bantry and promised the people that they would have an ante-natal outpatient service in Bantry, but that has not been provided yet, and the Minister knows that there will not be an ante-natal service in Bantry because consultants in Cork would not consider it in the best interests of the patients that a service be organised from 50 miles away. Numerous wards have closed, two thirds of the vacancies have not been filled, weekend cover has been reduced and specialist units are being closed and some units are trying to operate a day hospital. Most of the patients in these units come from the country, and it is totally ludicrous to have a patient coming from the country and having to return home and come back again in the morning when coming for any medium surgery. The locum cover is causing problems particularly where consultants are necessary, for example in the psychiatric service. If a consultant goes on holidays or goes sick there is nobody to replace him except perhaps a registrar or junior staff, and that is not acceptable. Fianna Fáil are not opposed to a review of the costs of the health service. We accept that a health service is an expensive service and we are in favour of greater efficiency in the service. The Government are not concerned with the problems they are creating for people. They are totally insensitive to the needs of people. They keep referring to figures such as percentages of GNP when they should be taking into account the per capita expenditure. We have the second lowest per capita expenditure in Europe. Only Greece is lower than us.

The Government must decide what kind of health service they wish to provide for people. The joint programme for Government seems to have been thrown in the waste paper basket, as the Government have gone in the reverse direction. Instead of looking after the needs of the less well off the Government have created a situation in which these people must find the money to provide essential services. The Government must produce and implement a positive policy before the whole service collapses. All over the country equipment and buildings are standing idle. When I asked the Minister what buildings and equipment were vacant as a result of insufficient funding the answer I got was that the information sought was not collected by his Department on a routine basis and that I could get the information by addressing an appropriate inquiry to the chief executive officers of the health boards who were in a position to provide it. This is an indictment of the Government and the Minister, that they are not sufficiently interested to know what is happening as a result of their policies. A cat scanner that cost £631,000 is not in use in Galway. I understand that the health board in Galway yesterday accepted an offer of £100,000 from the Minister to open that unit even though that money was insufficient to open it. They accepted the £100,000 and I suppose are thankful that a local election was coming up because they felt that it was as a result of the local election they were getting that offer from the Minister who up to now refused to give them any money. For the mentally handicapped a number of buildings are lying idle, and the Minister's reply to me in the Dáil was that this was because of the current restrictions on recruitment in the public sector and the lack of development funds.

Contrast this with the Government's stated policy to develop the services for the mentally handicapped in Building on Reality. I have quoted from a letter to a consultant from a family doctor explaining that he could not take a patient who was in urgent need of care into a hospital because he did not have the accommodation. The usual procedure nowadays is that people have to wait longer for admission to hospital. They must telephone the hospital regularly to see when a bed will be available from them. This is all new. Does the Minister accept that the health boards are in a crisis, that they have a deficit? Last year, 1984, the health boards' combined deficit was £10 million. In 1985 obviously they will carry that £10 million and the deficit will be £20 million, and it was estimated in December that they would have a deficit of £17 million. The Minister had consultations with some of the health boards and reduced this figure, but that did not take into account the £8 million projected as a deficit that the GMS will cost. The time has come for the Government to ask themselves what kind of health service they intend to provide for the people. It is obvious that they have thrown their programme for Government in the waste paper basket. They must produce and implement a positive policy before the whole service collapses.

The Minister in his amendment is asking Dáil Éireann to commend him for providing a comprehensive health service. No Deputy in this House could commend the Government for the manner in which they have administered the health services. The cutbacks have been savage and every health board and voluntary hospital are facing a financial crisis due to the massive reduction in funding by the Government. The Minister also states in his amendment that the resources allocated to the health services are sufficient, which everyone knows they are not. The Minister deplores what he calls the constant exploitation by the Opposition. I am sure that the Minister has more information than I have on proceedings at the annual meeting of the ITGWU, and I wonder if he includes them in the Opposition in view of their positive call on their national executive "to initiate a programme of activity aimed at ensuring that the Government restore the health services to a level where they will be capable of catering for the needs of the people". From reading the debate of the ITGWU it is obvious that they share the concern that we in Fianna Fáil share and have expressed here over the last two years, and recognise the deterioration in the level and quality of health care that is being provided.

Deputy Lenihan, and I remind him that he must conclude at 7.35 p.m.

I appreciate that, and Deputy O'Connell wants to make a contribution.

The main aspect I would like to address has been dealt with already in depth by Deputy O'Hanlon. That is the question of the health administration and services being reduced to the level of financial support that has occurred. This has never happened before since the foundation of the State and it calls for the condemnation of a Minister, particularly a Labour Minister, who should be concerned from the point of view of principle with ensuring that services are maintained, enhanced and developed. The whole essence of the health services development in Ireland over the years, with all Government's particularly Fianna Fáil Governments, has been looked at in a highly principled manner. More than any other area of public administration, health is a caring and compassionate matter which goes to the heart of the Irish people's way of looking at matters. It is part of the idea of looking after our neighbours that sends so many of our people abroad to do work in that regard. This Government for the first time have started to reverse that attitude, approach and idea and to go into a calculated bookkeeping decision to cut back drastically on health services. It is also spelt out in their document Building on Reality. The reality is a miasma. On page 136 of that document we read that over the next three years there is a reduction in real terms in regard to current expenditure on health. That is not referring in any way to the capital aspects. That is a naked book-keeping transaction approach to an area that requires a highly humanitarian, sensible and Christian approach such as characterised all Irish Governments and Minister of Health until the present Minister came in here as a Labour Minister, and totally contrary to the ideals and principles with which he should have been informed, proceeded to implement a totally conservative monetarist financial policy in regard to health.

I and many people outside the House would say that the duty of a Labour Minister and of the type of administration that we have at present is to ensure that health above all else is one area where Labour policy and ideology and ordinary humanitarian decency should obtain in regard to expenditure. We in Fianna Fáil over the years have always initiated and developed a caring and comprehensive approach to the administration of the health services. If we start on a course of neglecting people who are in ill health, then we are on the road to a ruthless way of life and a type of society totally alien to Irish traditions, values and ideals. I warn the Minister for Health in this respect. I speak from very practical knowledge from going around in recent weeks among people. The degree of neglect of our people in health matters at the moment is an aspect of which we cannot be proud and in regard to which we must carry a degree of shame and the responsibility lies with the Minister. At no level in the whole administration of medical and health services is the Minister held in anything but the highest degree of public odium and contempt, and not only from the recipients, the patients who are the important people. They are saying that they cannot get their beds or their operations. They are suffering, they are dying. They are not getting the services they are entitled to. It applies to the medical profession, the nursing profession, the people who administer our hospitals and right through all aspects of health administration. There is public opprobrium in a very big way for a Government who does not appear to care.

The planned Government expenditure in this document shows precisely what I am talking about. As a Labour Minister for Health the Minister is associated with it and he will carry the opprobrium. It is part of general Government policy which epitomises the essence of this Government's reactionary approach in an area in which the Irish people have always had the strongest feelings because of our respect for human life. In this document we have epitomised the whole essence of the monetarist approach of the Government which has been spelled out so well by Deputy O'Hanlon.

I should like to give way to another person who is well versed in this area, Deputy O'Connell. It is an area in which Fianna Fáil's reputation stands very high. It is a very shame-making episode in our political history to have a Labour Minister in charge of the most reactionary, negative and back-tracking period of medical development since the foundation of the State.

I am astonished at the gall of the Minister for Health in bringing in his amendment. No one but a fool, or an imbecile or a naive man would bring in such an amendment. I was astonished to hear the Minister saying that they provided £1,071 million in comparison with the £895 million provided in 1982 by the Fianna Fáil Government. The Minister should do his homework and take into account the increase in inflation over those years. This year the health services are short of over £106 million. That is the state of affairs today. Hospital beds are being closed. There is a tightening up on medical cards. The position has deteriorated so badly that we now refer to this Minister as the most hated man in the country. He is the most despised man by virtue of the fact that he takes sadistic pleasure in everything he seems to be doing. He has made enemies of the medical profession, the nursing profession and the para-medical profession because of the sadistic pleasure he has taken with regard to closures, cutbacks and delays in hospitals.

Normally I might find some justification for what the Minister is doing. I can only attribute what the Minister is doing today to weakness at the Cabinet table. He is not able to ensure that the necessary finance is available. Whether the Minister likes it or not, people are in a very serious condition. People need operations. People need medical help. People need cancer therapy. These people are being deprived. It is a damning indictment for the Minister that he should tolerate this. I can only attribute it to a terrible weakness at the Cabinet table. He is not demanding more money for this essential and vital service. He should consider his background, to consider the fact that he calls himself a socialist. A pseudo socialist would be more appropriate because of the attitude he has adopted.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and insert: "commends the Minister for Health for continuing to provide comprehensive health services for all persons in need despite the severe overall limitations in Exchequer resources, notes that the Fianna Fáil Government in 1982 provided £895 million for such services compared to £1,071 million provided by the Government in 1985, further commends the Minister for Health's repeated assurances that the current resources allocated to the health services are sufficient with effective management to ensure the delivery of essential health services to the community as a whole and deplores the constant exploitation by the Opposition of the fears and concerns of the sick, the elderly and the handicapped and their families about these services."

It is a rather unique accolade to hear my erstwhile colleague Deputy O'Connell criticising me. I may change my policy in relation to the health services but I will never change my party.

That is pseudo socialism.

That is a very cheap comment by the Minister.

That puts Deputy O'Connell in his correct historical perspective. This is a local election replay of the Fianna Fáil health services Private Members' Motion of last February. The Fianna Fáil team on this occasion looks just as jaded as it was last February and it will not win this replay this evening.

What about the transport union?

The amendment speaks for itself. It has been circulated to all Members of the House. The Fianna Fáil Party constantly criticise the Government for having allegedly failed to provide sufficient funds to finance expenditure in the health services. Yet the same party criticise the Government for not reducing public expenditure to the extent which they regard as necessary in the present difficult economic situation. These are totally opposite viewpoints, and yet they are both critical of Government policy. May I ask Fianna Fáil what precise policy they wish to pursue in this social policy area? Is it to provide more funds for the health services? If that is so, where is the extra money to come from? This motion is yet another example of the "hurler on the ditch" syndrome of the Opposition Party.

The Minister should be made Minister for Finance.

I urge the public not to be deceived by this replay by the shroud wavers in opposition exploiting the elderly and the fears of the Irish people, exploiting the nursing profession and stirring up trouble in hospitals and health boards. Health care needs money, and some deliverers of the health services, and particularly some members of the medical profession with a specialised interest, will indulge in any amount of scare-mongering to gain more money for themselves generally on the backs of the taxpayers. It is Government policy to provide responsible control of public expenditure. This means the establishment of cash limits for each of the public services, including the health services, taking into account the relative needs of each service. In the share out of the 1985 resources available, the health services got £1,014 million in grant terms for noncapital expenditure. This sum will support a gross expenditure level of about £1,200 million compared with about £1,130 million taking account of income from various sources at estimate stage last year.

What about real money?

This is an exceptionally large allocation by any standards. As Minister for Health, I would have wished to see more and more money made available for better, improved and more developed services along the lines outlined in the Government's national plan. I have no doubt that, in present economic circumstances, the amount of money we have received is sufficient to provide adequate services and with prudent management we can provide health services, and they will be provided if the Opposition will stop indulging in shroud waving and if people do the work they are employed to do.

What about the transport union at the weekend?

Is that the Minister's union?

It seems to me that many people do not yet appreciate the significant growth that has taken place in expenditure on the health services over the last decade. In 1973-74 net expenditure was about £143 million representing about 5.2 per cent of GNP. In 1982 the figure had increased to £952 million representing almost 8 per cent of GNP. The expenditure level in 1985, which can be supported by the Estimates provision, will reach about £1,122 million in net expenditure terms. When direct income from patients' receipts accruing to health agencies is reckoned the amount available for expenditure on the health services in 1985 will, as I have mentioned, reach a total of about £1,200 million.

If Deputies have any difficulty in accepting those figures, I will arrange for a departmental briefing on how the figures are broken down. The Book of Estimates is available. Deputy O'Hanlon alleged that, out of a total allocation of £1,200 million, at the end of 1984 the health boards were short by £10 million. In fact, the figure is working out at about £6 million. This time last year this alleged £10 million was in the region of £17 million. At the end of 1984 the health boards discovered they had deficits of about £6 million, which in the context of spending £1,200 million is a relatively small sum and spread over the next three years is absorbed into budgets quite easily.

(Interruptions.)

I have only got half an hour, some of which has already gone, and I want to deal with some other aspects. The growth in expenditure has been caused by a very substantial degree of growth in our health services. Admittedly, we have had pay and price inflation, and these have pushed up the cost of the health services, but our services have improved very considerably. Our acute hospital services, spread throughout the country, are as good as any in western Europe. I have been in many countries since I became Minister for Health and I have been in many countries since I was on the Council of Europe on a health committee from 1970 to 1982 and I have a reasonable experience of hospitals in other countries. Our acute hospital services are generally very good. Our psychiatric services have been very steadily improved. Since I came into office I have put £6 million of capital money into our psychiatric hospitals to clean out some of the dirt and some of the incompetence in terms of the general improvement of our psychiatric services, and that money has been spent. Fianna Fáil Ministers did not do that because psychiatric patients are not good voting fodder in terms of collecting votes at election time.

That is a disgraceful remark.

(Interruptions.)

That is a disgraceful remark.

The Minister should withdraw it.

Is it in order for the Minister to make remarks of that kind? We have certain standards. We will not descend to that kind of gurrier level. Is that to be the way the Chair allows debate to proceed in this House?

I have no control over the Minister. Would the Deputy please allow the Minister to continue?

A feature of the psychiatric service has been the general improvement in the standards of accommodation and facilities in district mental hospitals by the expenditure by this Government of £6 million on schemes of refurbishment. I emphasise this Government. The staff, in fairness, are co-operating quite exceptionally in that regard. Increasingly we have the provision of prehospital training units and rehabilitation wards for such patients. Our mental handicapped services are extremely good and are being progressively developed, with a particular emphasis upon community services. If any Deputy thinks that I have not allocated moneys to our mental handicapped services. I want to inform the House that I have, in particular, taken money from the acute hospital area and I have put money into the mental handicapped area. I challenge any Opposition Deputy to come with me and see what has been constructed in Swinford, to come out and see Cheeverstown, to come to Belcamp in County Dublin, to come down to Creagh House in County Sligo, come to Glenmaroon or come to Drumcar in County Louth. Deputy O'Hanlon knows the improvements going on there now. I will take Deputies over to Galway and Ballybay or if they want to go to Gort where they will see that all these developments have taken place because I have allocated the money directly into them and major improvements have been made in our mental handicapped services.

Likewise, on the physical handicapped side Deputies have only to go down the road and they will see that for the first time in decades we are improving and redeveloping the school for the blind in Merrion and Saint Josephs in Cabra where we have pumped money into that institution as well. It is not spectacular cat scanners. It is not spectacular this or that in acute hospitals, it is money going into the most deprived people in our community. All Fianna Fáil are thinking about are beds in acute hospitals, waiting lists, imaginary and otherwise.

(Interruptions.)

I want to come to the general medical services. We are providing an outstanding GMS service. It is very expensive and we are providing it on the basis of a first rate general practitioner service and medicines so much so that, as Deputies know, four out of every ten people now have medical cards. This is the first time this has happened in the history of the State under any Minister for Health. This year alone we are spending £93 million on the medical card system. In-visiting rates are going up and so are prescribing rates, although I have some suspicion as to why.

(Interruptions.)

I will not put them into the Irish Medical Times for a few weeks yet.

How many in the Western Health Board have lost medical cards?

At the moment four out of every ten people in the country are in receipt of medical cards. In some counties six out of every ten people have medical cards. Of course, the Opposition allege that we are taking medical cards from people. This is entirely untrue. The current situation is that the allocations for the health boards and the other health agencies for 1985 have been determined in an equitable manner on the basis of the resources generally available to us. I have acted in an even handed manner with the health boards. I propose to arrange a series of meetings with the chairmen of the health boards and their management teams after the local elections when the new boards are in, which is a logical time to do it, to review the position on the basis of expenditure trends to date. Meanwhile, senior officers of my Department can be called on at short notice by the health boards or hospitals to discuss detailed issues. I was rather ironically abused when some health boards said they would be short £9 million in 1985. One southern health board now work out that they might be short £2 million. The Eastern Health Board were supposed to be short £3 million or £4 million in 1984 and it is now worked out they might be, out of a few hundred million pounds, a few hundred thousand pounds short. That is the reality, and all the raving in the world will not convince people——

(Interruptions.)

I have repeatedly stated that I am endeavouring to improve the overall position of the health board finances. One positive step which I have taken is, as I have announced, that health boards will be allowed to retain moneys collected in respect of arrears of health contributions owed by the farming community. This means, in effect, that the boards' approved expenditure in 1985 may be increased pro rata with arrears collected with retrospective effect from 1 January 1985. I hope this will induce local farmers to pay arrears due without further delay in the knowledge that their statutory obligation must be paid and it will help to ease the funding problems of their health boards, although I am somewhat sceptical about the Opposition's attitude, because Fianna Fáil have just announced that they will abolish the car tax as some incentive to farmers to pay the health contributions.

(Interruptions.)

A specific aspect of the Fianna Fáil motion relates to medical cards. I would point out that I was the first Minister for Health in the history of the State to bring in a particular age allowance for persons aged 66 years and over. This allowance was introduced from 1 July 1984 and amounts to £5 per week for a single person aged between 66 and 80 years of age and £8 a week for persons aged 80 years and over. The allowance is doubled if the individual is married. The introduction of this allowance marks a significant improvement in the position of people aged 66 years and over.

Under the existing income guidelines a married man aged 66 and over can have an income of up to £100.05 per week or £106.50 a week over 80 years of age and still be entitled to a medical card. This limit will be even higher if he has outgoings in excess of £10 a week in respect of his house. I have tried to do this on a responsible basis. The Fianna Fáil Party gave medical cards to every pensioner over the age——

And the Minister took them from them.

Every pensioner is entitled to them.

The Minister is suffering from withdrawal symptoms.

I met pensioners with bank pensions, contributory old age pensions and so on who had substantial incomes and yet they had medical cards which Fianna Fáil gave them and decided to withdraw in October 1982 and then because there was a general election they did not implement their decision. At least I was honest about it and implemented it.

It is the first time that the Minister has admitted that he withdrew them.

I can give the date of the Fianna Fáil Government decision.

February 1983.

Nobody has lost a medical card in any health board area where they are legitimately entitled to one.

But nobody.

The Minister is in cloud cuckoo land.

At present 1,300,000 people are covered by medical cards, which is a record number of GMS patients. It is 40 per cent of the population.

That is an indictment of the Government.

As regards the closure of hospital wards——

Right, left and centre.

——there are 19,000 acute beds and at any given point some hundreds of them are closed or being refurbished or there are holiday periods as in the months of July and August. It is not unusual for hospital wards to be closed.

The Minister is talking to intelligent people.

I wish to thank some of the hospitals. Hume Street Hospital has agreed to be a day care hospital. I have encouraged hospitals to open up day beds and five day week beds and not have people admitted at weekends. Generally speaking it has been very successful.

Has the Minister opened a hospital?

What about Beaumont?

One can get sick between Monday and Friday.

I am sure the Tánaiste will open one in Tralee on 10 June.

The level of contribution from the Opposition to the debate is remarkable.

The Minister to proceed without interruption.

Do not tell lies.

I wish to deal with an aspect which has not been dealt with by Deputies opposite in relation to Beaumont Hospital although it is mentioned in the motion before the House. I regard the commissioning of Beaumont Hospital as being a vital element in the provision of a modern acute general hospital service for the population of Dublin. Beaumont will be one of six major general hospitals in Dublin which together will provide a comprehensive hospital service for the area. I repudiate the allegation which has been made by Fianna Fáil that it is any fault of mine or through neglect on my part that it will not open by the middle of this year. I have been prepared to make the necessary resources available for the equipping of the hospital to enable it to open on schedule, but I will not be blackmailed by anyone into opening this hospital on the basis of making public land——

The Minister did a U turn on the nurses' home.

Who are the blackmailers?

Please allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

The Minister is making wild charges.

I will not be blackmailed on the basis of making public land——

This is the same stuff.

——bought by the hard pressed taxpayers available as my two Fianna Fáil predecessors indicated——

The Minister will take 70 beds off the public hospital for private use.

Spoken like a true socialist.

The Minister has only eight minutes left. Please allow him to speak.

I will not have a situation where my predecessors entered into undertakings giving public land to a private company of medical consultants.

The Minister used the word "blackmail".

He is giving them 70 beds, which is much more expensive.

That land was bought by the public but it was given to the company on the basis that they would build a private hospital, duplicating resources on a campus which has 730 beds, 70 of which I am prepared to permit consultants to use——

At public expense.

——for their private patients on the basis that the money from them will go into the budget for the hospital. There will be no exploitation and no sell out such as occurred under Deputies Haughey and Woods.

(Interruptions.)

Order please, Deputies.

Please, Minister, not Deputies.

I hope common sense will prevail and that my proposals will be accepted. Officers of my Department are meeting with the Irish Medical Organisation tomorrow because I am determined to open this hospital. I will open it in a responsible way within the budget. There will be no redundancies. The two budgets from the Richmond and Jervis Street Hospitals will be moved to Beaumont Hospital. I am appalled that there should be such opposition when at present the substandard accommodation and facilities in Jervis Street Hospital and in the Richmond Hospital have to be tolerated by the people. Greed, suspicion and obduracy will not permit it to be opened as it should be in the public interest.

Is it equipped?

I reject the suggestion of the proposers of this motion that I am running down the health services. In 1983 there were 572,660 patients discharged following in-patient treatment in acute public hospitals. That was a record per capita for any country in western Europe. That was half a million people out of a population of three and a half million. Out-patient attendances at these hospitals totalled over 1.5 million. There were 23,000 admissions to psychiatric hospitals and the number of out-patient attendances was in excess of 45,000. Our mental handicapped services catered for 9,000 people.

There are some deficiencies in our services, but I deny that anything by way of the allegations of the Fianna Fáil Party stand up. We are spending £23 million a week on our health services, a unique record figure. In addition capital expenditure of £58 million will be incurred in the health areas in 1985 and a further £119 million over 1986-87 on the provision of hospitals and other infrastructure.

Figures before people.

Deputy O'Hanlon said there was a shortage of staff in the Southern Health Board. This year they are employing 216 more people than they employed in 1983 arising out of the commissioning of Tralee hospital.

The Minister did not build that.

The Opposition have no policy in regard to the health services except to spend and spend and to accede to every demand from every quarter. I am surprised that the party opposite, which got £300,000 in research money from the taxpayer since going into Opposition, have not been able to put together six pages of foolscap which might constitute a health policy.

That is a low down comment.

How many pages were devoted to it in Building on Reality?

How much are the Government spending on consultancy services?

This Opposition tours the country promising a new maternity unit here, a paediatric unit there, a private hospital site here, dispensing largesse all over the place, writing little notes to matrons without going to Government, making promises——

(Interruptions.)

Order, please, the Minister has five minutes in which to conclude.

We will hear more nonsense.

Looking at the party's local election manifesto and trying to put a personal costing on it I came up with a figure of £76 million on the health side. When you add to that the £200 million — I suppose £40 million would be for construction projects on the hospital side — that is to be spent on the construction area and realise that they will reopen the Verolme Cork Dockyard, reconstitute Irish Shipping, employ 600 more gardaí——

What has all this to do with health?

The Minister is going to sea.

The man is a disgrace.

(Interruptions.)

Whether it is natural gas, VAT on newspapers or abolishing water charges, building more prisons, opening Knock Airport, the Fianna Fáil Party——

(Interruptions.)

What about the transport union?

The general hospitals in Cavan and Mullingar recently commenced major building projects. I have continued with the development of the Mater Hospital, which is now well under way, and part of it will be opened next January or February. I am sure Deputy Haughey will attend the opening. We are also going ahead with improvements to St. James's Hospital and we will invite Deputy Haughey to the opening.

Tell us about Castlebar.

As the Deputy well knows, a major scheme of building has now gone out for tender in regard to Castlebar General Hospital.

(Interruptions.)

St. Oliver Plunkett Hospital, Dundalk, is being redeveloped, the Cheeverstown Mental Handicap Centre has been opened and more resources, both current and capital, have been allocated to the mental and physical handicap services than under any previous Minister for Health. Services which are needed have been provided, such as the cardiac unit in the Mater, which has been substantially expanded. The children's hospital, Crumlin and the Cork Regional Hospital have also benefited. For example, now that the health board have finally accepted our views on the matter, the maternity units in Galway and Kilkenny will be opened shortly. I have provided resources to many other bodies, notably to the Brothers of St. John of God and the Brothers of Charity to enhance the great services which they provide for the mentally handicapped.

The Minister must not have heard what happened in Galway Hospital.

I have not spent my time as Minister for Health trying to respond on a give-away basis to every cant and hypocrisy which exists in those services. I never made false promises to the matrons or boards of the many hospitals which I have visited. I never issued any special ministerial pleadings for the appointment of political friends to health agencies.

What about Beaumont Hospital?

I never made any special representations to hospitals to have students appointed as nurses or to have student nurses enrolled. I never directed Comhairle na nOispidéal to create consultant posts where none was warranted.

What about the Western Health Board resolution yesterday calling on the Minister to resign?

I struck off doctors from the GMS who prescribed irresponsibly and I did so without political fear or favour. Wherever I have seen waste and inefficiency in regard to drugs or hospital care, I have eliminated it.

The Minister eliminated efficiency.

I am not beholden to any professional group, hospital board or to any political pressure group in my work and when I cease to be Minister — which will probably be the last Thursday in September 1987 — Deputy Haughey will have ample opportunity to analyse what was done and my conscience will be clear in that regard.

Bring on the Labour cheerleaders.

I propose to confine my remarks to section (d) of this motion, namely the wasteful delay in opening Beaumont Hospital.

The attitude which this Minister for Health has adopted towards the Beaumont Hospital project since he came into office and his failure to have this hospital fully equipped and opened can only be described as a major scandal. When I came into office as Minister for Health in 1977 no progress of any kind in providing this hospital had been made by my predecessor, another Labour Minister for Health, who had been in office since 1973.

Because I was aware of the urgent need there was for this additional major general hospital on the north side, I arranged as quickly as possible to have the site acquired, to expedite planning and to get construction started. As a result of brilliant work by the professional team involved and equally prodigous efforts by the building firms and their workers, we completed the hospital in record time so that it was ready for occupation 18 months ago. This urgently needed hospital built to the highest modern standards, at a cost of £53 million to the Irish taxpayer, has been lying idle since it was completed because of the confrontational, dictatorial policy adopted by the present Minister for Health. The people of the north side of Dublin are being deprived of the first-class medical service this hospital could provide and the very considerable employment it could make available in the locality because of the ideological antics of this Minister.

When the grand design of this fine new hospital was being thought out, it was decided that a private clinic for consultants should also be established on the same site. This was a sound, sensible decision and in keeping with the best modern medical thinking and practice. It is essential that patients in a public general hospital have available to them readily and on demand the best medical specialist and consultant services. By far the best way to ensure that the patients in Beaumont would have such a service available to them would be to have adjacent to the general hospital a clinic and consulting rooms in which consultants and specialists could carry on their practice. In this way, the valuable time of consultants would not be wasted going back and forward across the city but their essential skills would be immediately and readily available to the general hospital patients. It is clear from the latest belated offer which the Minister has made that the basic common sense of this proposal is now accepted.

I decided at the outset that it was in everyone's interest to make available in the grounds of the new Beaumont Hospital a site on which the private consultants of the two existing hospitals which are being merged into Beaumont would come together and provide the facilities that they would need. I want to emphasise that this would be at no cost whatever to the State or to the public hospital patients. The idea was that a site would either be sold or leased to the consultants at the appropriate cost and all facilities would be provided by them at their own expense. Nobody, except an ideological fanatic, could object to such a proposal. The present Minister for Health, however, in pursuance of his own personal vendetta, has sought to renege on that original decision and that is the sole reason why this hospital is not open today.

The antics of this Minister for Health have been particularly disreputable. He has changed his stance radically since he started the dispute. Doing a complete U-turn he has just recently offered the private consultants 70 beds free of charge——

Not free of charge, nothing is free of charge.

——for their own private use in the public hospital, thus acknowledging that the presence of consultants on the campus of the general hospital is simply essential. However, his own ideological prejudice has led him into a position where he is now forced to offer public property to private consultants when he could have had all their services available at no cost to the State had he maintained the original position.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Labour Party, presumably because they are ashamed of their role in this matter and are very much aware of the widespread feeling of anger in the community at the failure of the Minister for Health to have this hospital opened, recently circulated a particularly audacious and disreputable leaflet. In a tactic typical of this Minister they seek to divert the blame for the present situation to someone else. The leaflet contains the following very cynical statement. Referring to the hospital, it states that is was first proposed by Labour Senator Flor O'Mahony in 1974. If that is an attempt by Labour to claim credit for the building of Beaumont Hospital, it can only be regarded as a joke. In 1974, if my memory serves me right, Flor O'Mahony as he then was, was an adviser to the Minister for Health who was doing absolutely nothing about providing a hospital in Beaumont. Nothing whatever was done about Beaumont Hospital until Fianna Fáil came into office in 1977, when we set to work immediately to get it built. The Labour Party leaflet goes on to completely distort the situation by an unwarranted attack on the private consultants concerned. It is typical of the Labour Party and the Minister for Health that they would seek to cover up their own failure by trying to put the blame on anybody except themselves.

The delay in the opening of Beaumont Hospital at enormous public cost and to the serious detriment of the people of the area is directly attributable to the socialist, ideology-based manoeuvrings of this discredited Minister for Health who is putting his own personal prejudices before the welfare of the people of the north side of Dublin.

The Minister and the Labour Party are entitled to their belief in socialist medicine but they are not entitled to indulge them at public expense and to the detriment of the people of Dublin. The record of this Minister for Health would make a British Tory Minister look like a fairy godmother by comparison. He has wrecked our health services, closed down wards, deprived people of vital medical attention, imposed cutbacks on a scale never before experienced. But perhaps his most personally damaging and prejudiced action is his failure to open this fine new hospital that Fianna Fáil built for the people in Beaumont.

(Interruptions.)

Like other speakers from Fianna Fáil I am glad of the opportunity to speak in this debate. This is the third time in the past six months that Fianna Fáil have raised this issue concerning the cutbacks in the health services. Maybe we were naive in thinking that as a result of our previous motions we could expect some improvements in the position but, unfortunately, as members of all parties are aware instead of improving it has deteriorated. The total inadequacy of funding is reflected in every region, in every hospital whether ran by health boards or voluntary concerns.

The reason that we once again bring forward such a motion is to draw attention to the plight of the poor and the underprivileged and to the hardship being inflicted on them by the Government, more astonishingly by the Labour element in the Government. One can recall that is was a Labour motion of no confidence which brought down the Fianna Fáil Government in 1982 and it seems all the more bizarre that a Labour Minister for Health is inflicting such hardship on our poor and underprivileged. I should like to jog the Minister's memory about that debate. One of the Minister's colleagues warned the then Minister, and the incoming Government, the Coalition, that any attempt to worsen the health services would be fought with all the powers at the disposal of the Labour Party, hollow words indeed when one considers the performance of a Labour Minister for Health.

Should we be surprised? Are these not the same Labour Members who stood idly by last summer and allowed the abolition of the food subsidies which was ably announced by the Tánaiste while his Fine Gael friends ran for cover? Is this not the same Minister whose first action on taking office was to remove medical cards from old age pensioners and followed that by withdrawing medical cards from students? Is it any wonder that he continues to inflict hardship on the poor sections of our community? The Minister promised new regulations for the 16-18 year olds when he removed the medical cards from them to ensure that they could at least get hospital services cards but two years later we are still awaiting those regulations. The result is that that group are in no man's land; they cannot get a medical card or a hospital services card.

In the last debate on this issue I pointed out that for the first time ever the allocation for the GMS was included in the overall allocation for health boards. At that time I pointed out the dangers of such a move and said that for the first time ever the GMS was in open competition with the general hospital services for an already inadequate allocation. Unfortunately, the warnings I gave then have been borne out. Many health boards say that the funds available to the GMS will run out towards the end of October or the beginning of November. What will happen to medical cards then? Will they become another statistic to be noted, then forgotten about by the Minister? Is this why the Department of Health wrote to CEOs in recent weeks instructing them to rigidly apply the guidelines in relation to the obtaining of medical cards and, as a result, denying many who would under normal circumstances be entitled to them?

The CEOs, it appears, no longer have any discretionary powers and in cases of financial hardship and severe medical necessity they can no longer grant these people cards. The Minister and the Government, still insist that the underprivileged are not suffering. There is a further danger from this action because the Minister has now introduced financial competition between the GMS and the general hospital services. There is a danger that patients who require hospitalisation will be refused admission because of the financial position.

In our last debate on health cuts I went through the shortfall region by region and those shortfalls have been well documented since by my party and the media. I should like to quote three headlines which appeared in national daily newspapers last weekend. On Friday night the Evening Herald carried the following headline: Health Cutbacks Attacked by Nurse. The Irish Times on Saturday carried this headline: Cuts In Health Services Deplored. It is interesting to note that that headline concerned a report from the ITGWU annual conference in Cork. That is the Minister's union. At that conference delegates deplored the delay in opening Tralee hospital which cost more than £15 million. I note from this morning's issue of The Cork Examiner that the Tánaiste tried to jump on that band wagon and failed. The failure to provide a dialysis unit at Limerick was condemned at the conference.

Mr. Kevin Hunt from Galway told the conference that the democratic rights of workers in the health boards were being eroded by the cutbacks. Mr. Joe O'Callaghan, secretary of the union's Cork Nos. 7 and 8 branches said that the health boards are an area of crisis. Those comments came from the Minister's fellow trade unionists. They did not come from Fianna Fáil but from men after his own heart. On Monday the Evening Herald carried the following headline: Cutbacks Blow to Hospital. The story that followed described how 12 of the 40 beds in Our Lady's Psychiatric Hospital in Cork are to be closed. A short time ago the Minister loudly proclaimed what he had done for the psychiatric services but he did not tell us that they are closing those 12 beds in Cork. Because the community cannot cater for those patients they will be put into the existing wards. The workers at the hospital who are members of the Minister's union have said that the result of such a move will be a return to the conditions of 20 years ago. That was not a statement from Fianna Fáil but from a member of the ITGWU, the Minister's union, at last week's conference.

I do not intend to deal with the shortfall in each health board but I should like to refer to the position in the South Eastern Health Board. In 1984 we had a deficit of £1.9 million. All the clouding will not change that. That amount becomes a first charge on our 1985 allocation and it will be reflected in the year's estimate. Therefore, the very minimum shortfall we have in the south east in 1985 will be £3.8 million, irrespective of the cutbacks we achieve this year. The effect of this shortfall will be a massive increase in waiting lists for surgical and medical clinics. There will be a closure of hospital beds for many weeks during the summer months and the health of patients will be put in jeopardy. The non replacement of doctors and nurses on holidays will mean that for many weeks of the year we can only provide an emergency service. Due to an inadequacy of staff we have the position in one of our hospitals of an anaesthestist having to cater for three surgeons at the same time. Is the Minister saying that the patients involved are not at risk? We have a singlehanded obstetrician in Clonmel who works almost 24 hours per day seven days of the week and we cannot get assistance for him.

At the final meeting of Comhairle na nOspidéal — it may well be the last one if the Minister has his way — I asked what the guidelines were for a singlehanded obstetrician and I was told there were none because Comhairle does not recognise such an entity and no such singlehanded post should exist, but it does in Clonmel. At that same meeting we sanctioned an additional post of anaesthetist for St. Vincent's Hospital, Elm Park, a seventh post. Why? It is my view that the reason was that the funding had been made available by the Department of Health. Obviously, some hospitals are more equal than others. It is bad enough having inadequate funding but it becomes all the more galling when those inadequate funds are unfairly distributed.

I referred in the past to the scandal of the unopened units which cost in the region of £7 million and now lie idle.

Is the Minister proud of what he has done for the health services?

What type of economic madness is it to build these units and then not staff them? The one that really upsets me is the 26-bed geriatric assessment unit at Ardkeen which has been left idle for two years in spite of the pious platitudes contained in Building on Reality to the effect that it is the Minister's intention to make provision for the needs of the increasing number of elderly people. Those are laudable sentiments, but unfortunately the reality is something else. I suppose there is no point asking what happened to the Regional Hospital in Waterford? The report has been lying on the Minister's desk for three years and we are still no closer to opening this hospital.

I could go on all night, but may I refer to one more subject? The Midland Health Board are the only board managing to live within their allocation, but to achieve this they must close down the maternity services in Tullamore and transfer them to Portlaoise, and the famous orthopaedic unit at Athlone, which was promised by the Taoiseach no less, is no more. But then we know what that man's record is in relation to broken promises. I wonder if the Government have managed to find candidates for the local elections in Athlone as a result of that decision?

In conclusion, may I appeal to the Labour Party once again, if they have any conscience or even in the interests of self-preservation, to support our motion tonight? They should not depend on the Coalition partners, because they will dump them as they did in the past. The Labour Party should regain some of their dignity and professed consideration for the underpriveleged, and support this motion.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá 70; Níl, 64.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East)
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West)
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies F. O'Brien and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Barrett(Dublin North-West).
Question put.

Silence, please. I have received a request from all sides of the House to insist on silence when a division is being taken.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

As a matter of fact, I sometimes think that if all the people who request silence remained silent there would be no noise.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Item No. 75, motion in the name of Deputy O'Hanlon and amendment No. 1 in the name of the Minister for Health. The question is "That the amendment be made". On that question a division has been challenged.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 64.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East)
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West)
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies F. O'Brien and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Barrett(Dublin North-West).
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That motion No. 75, as amended, be agreed."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 64.
Question declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6 June 1985.
Barr
Roinn