Vol. 359 No. 4
asked the Minister for Justice if he will consider amending section 6 of the Moneylenders Act, 1933, to prohibit the granting of a certificate for a moneylender's licence in cases when the applicant is shown to have taken allowance or pension books as security for loans.
17.
asked the Minister for Justice the steps, if any, he intends taking to restrict the activities of moneylenders who are exploiting the severe financial difficulties of a large and growing number of families.
(Limerick East): I propose to take Questions Nos. 16 and 17 together.
As regards Question No. 16, it is an offence under the Pension Books (Prohibition of Alienation) Act, 1932 as extended by the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Act, 1935, section 63, the Children's Allowance Act, 1944, section 17, the Social Welfare Act, 1952, section 63 and the Defence Act, 1954, section 263, to take an allowance or pension book as security for a loan. If a licensed moneylender is shown to have acted in this manner he would risk prosecution as well as refusal of his application for a certificate of fitness on the ground that he was not a "fit and proper person to hold a certificate". I have no evidence that these provisions are inadequate. No reports of complaints have been made to the Garda or myself of moneylenders holding allowance or pension books as security for loans.
If, however, any evidence of moneylenders engaging in such practice is brought to the attention of the Garda they will take appropriate action including, if the evidence is sufficient, criminal proceedings. Accordingly, if the Deputy has any particular case in mind I would invite him to bring it to the notice of the local Garda.
As regards Question No. 17, it is not clear from the question what specific activities the Deputy has in mind. In this context the Deputy will be aware that I have answered a number of questions in the recent past in relation to various aspects of moneylending. I refer the Deputy to replies to Parliamentary Questions Nos. 625 — Volume 354, No. 6, column 1216 — of 29 November 1984; 640 and 641 — Volume 355, No. 10, columns 2221 and 2222 — of 12 February 1985; and 480 — Volume 355, No. 11, columns 2461 and 2462 — of 13 February 1985. When answering these questions I also mentioned the position of the Garda Síochána and suggested that Deputies should bring any particular cases they might have in mind to the notice of the local Garda.
I should like some clarification. Does the Minister's reply mean that a certificate would be prohibited only in a case where the Garda had taken a prosecution against an individual? Can a certificate be refused on evidence from the Department of Social Welfare or other Departments in cases where the Garda have not taken a prosecution?
(Limerick East): The Deputy's precise question was about the use of pension books as security for loans. There is a whole series of provisions in different pieces of legislation which make it an offence to use books such as pension books or children's allowance books as security for loans. If a licensed moneylender is shown to have acted in this manner by accepting a pension book, he risks prosecution. It would be a matter of making a complaint and getting him prosecuted. Obviously that would weigh very heavily in a refusal of his application for a certificate of fitness on the grounds that he was not a fit or proper person to hold a certificate. I am sure one could be deemed not to be a fit and proper person to hold a certificate in the absence of deemed not to be a fit and proper person to hold a certificate in the absence of criminal proceedings, but some other evidence would have to be shown.
That is precisely the point I wanted to make. Can the individual concerned be prohibited from getting a certificate in cases where criminal proceedings have not been taken? The other question is: does this offence with regard to moneylenders also apply to banks such as the major banks and the banking groups giving loans? Does that prohibition also apply to them — they cannot take pension books or children's allowance books as security for loans?
(Limerick East): It does not just apply to moneylenders. It is an offence under the Pension Books Act, 1932, to take an allowance or pension book as security for a loan. There is no reference to moneylenders in that. On the question of fitness to be granted a moneylender's licence, section 6 of the Moneylenders Act, 1933, deals with a certificate required for the grant of a moneylender's licence and specifies the conditions. I will provide the Deputy with a copy if that would be helpful.
