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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 Jul 1985

Vol. 360 No. 2

Estimates, 1985. - Vote 47: Health (Revised Estimate) (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £1,070,828,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1985, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Ard-Chláraitheora), and certain services administered by that Office, including grants to Health Boards, miscellaneous grants, and a grant-in-aid.
—(Minister for Health.)

The gross non-capital provision in the Estimate amounts to £1,113.828 million. Allowing for appropriations-in-aid at £100 million, the net non-capital grant provisions is £1,013.828 million.

The net non-capital grant provision represents an increase of about £23.9 million on the corresponding out-turn for 1984, which was £989.910 million. This provision includes an amount of £2.5 million for the commissioning of new units. A further £2.5 million is included for services development in the community area, £0.5 million of which has been allocated to the Health Education Bureau. Further provision will be required to meet the cost of implementation of approved pay awards.

The capital provision included in the Estimate amounts to £57 million.

The level of non-capital expenditure in 1985 which can be approved on the basis of the subhead provisions in the Estimate is about £1,195 million in gross terms, or £1,122 million taking account of income which is received directly by the health agencies such as payments for maintenance in private and semi-private accommodation in public hospitals. The gross estimated expenditure of £1,195 million represents an increase of £66 million on the corresponding figure for 1984. It comprises £740 million in respect of pay, £393 million in respect of non-pay, excluding cash allowances, and £62 million in respect of cash allowances. About 86 per cent of the gross expenditure will be met from Exchequer funds.

The approximate breakdown of estimated gross expenditure of £1,195 million in 1985 between programmes is as follows:

£M or %

Community Protection

19.4

1.6

Community Health Services

154.9

13.0

Community Welfare

93.7

7.8

Psychiatric Programme

139.8

11.7

Programme for the Handicapped

117.7

9.8

General Hospitals

610.3

51.1

General Support, including

research

59.4

5.0

The percentage of overall expenditure in general hospitals is noteworthy in relation to the possibility of gradually shifting expenditure from a hospital to a community setting, as envisaged in the national plan. Indeed, if all institutional costs were combined, they would amount to about £838 million of the gross 1985 Estimate and represent up to 70 per cent of total expenditure. It is thus not unrealistic to envisage the possibility of a shift of some expenditure from institutions to the community.

I am aware, as most Deputies are, that there are institutional services provided in the country which are neither essential to the system of health care delivery nor indeed to the state of health of the community.

No major speech in relation to the health services can omit a reference to the considerable growth in expenditure that has occurred on the services, particularly in the last decade. In 1973-1974 net expenditure amounted to about £143 million, representing about 5.2 per cent of GNP. In the current year it will be of the order of £1,122 million, representing about 7.2 per cent of GNP. While this percentage is high, it has in fact declined from a peak of around 7.9 per cent in 1982.

The factors responsible for the increase in expenditure over the years are pay and price inflation, extension of eligibility for certain services, and improvements and developments of services. In recent times the range and depth of our services have grown rapidly, embracing many new technological advances as well as considerable expansion in the area of personal social services. Not unexpectedly these improvements gave rise to significant extra costs.

Health agencies, including health boards, public voluntary and joint board hospitals and homes for mentally handicapped persons were notified in December 1984 of the approved non-capital allocation levels for 1985. Prior to that — on 16 November 1984 — I met with the chairmen and chief executive officers of health boards and dealt in some detail with the difficulties and opportunities in the health services over the next few years and the necessity to develop plans in accordance with the thrust of the national plan. I alerted the health boards to the need to produce action plans for 1985 spelling out in detail the measures proposed to contain expenditure in 1985, in particular, within approved allocation levels.

Deputies will be aware of the furore in certain quarters about the levels of allocation approved for 1985 and unnecessary and alarming references to the alleged suffering and even deaths which are likely to arise because of measures needed to achieve budgetary targets. I have accepted that the financial situation is difficult. It will call for the exercise of skilful and unrelenting management of resources throughout the year. I am firmly convinced, however, that the funds available are sufficient to enable vital services to be maintained at a satisfactory level and I am also convinced that efficient management of that resource would ensure that the community would be guaranteed the health services essential to its wellbeing. I regret the extreme and irresponsible comments on the situation which are not helpful. They are related to political exigencies rather than to realities.

I am glad to be able to say that I have obtained a capital allocation of £58 million — of which £57 million will come from the Exchequer and £1 million from other sources — for the coming year. This will allow me to keep major programmes of improvement of facilities on stream and to make progress in the planning or building of all projects which I consider essential to preserving the fabric of the health services.

In the general hospital services area, the major schemes at St. James's, the Mater, Cavan and Mullingar will continue. Tenders have been invited for the development of Castlebar General Hospital. In the case of Ardkeen Hospital, I have approved urgent improvement works to go ahead in advance of the overall development of the hospital. Planning of proposed developments at Tallaght, Kilkenny, Wexford, Sligo and Naas will continue. The Midland Health Board have devised an excellent rationalisation programme for general hospitals in their area, including a regional orthopaedic service at Tullamore, and I will be supplying the necessary capital resources for the implementation of the programme. In addition, smaller improvement works — for example, improvement of out-patient and day hospital facilities — will be undertaken at other hospitals.

In the psychiatric service it is intended to continue improving standards in the major psychiatric hospitals, to build or plan a number of new day hospitals and day care centres and to commence development of small psychogeriatric units to improve standards at St. Brendan's Hospital, Dublin. On the mental handicap side, the commissioning of the new centre at Cheeverstown House, Templeogue, commenced last year and when completed this centre will provide 130 residential places and 154 day care places.

Other developments in the mental handicap services include the allocation of £700,000 towards the end of 1984 for innovative recreational and community-based facilities and for minor improvement schemes. In the current year I intend to introduce a planned programme of maintenance works in centres for mentally handicapped people. I am also making special provision to develop a small number of residential facilities for the physically handicapped in line with the recent Green Paper on services for the disabled. In this connection also developments will occur at St. Laurence's Cheshire Home, Cork, and the Barrett Cheshire Home in Dublin. I have just approved the acceptance of tenders for new residential accommodation at St. Joseph's School for the Deaf in Cabra. Construction on this project should start almost immediately. Another major development will shortly commence at St. Mary's School for the Deaf, and planning will proceed for developments at St. Mary's School for the Blind.

Building or planning for essential developments to cater for the needs of the elderly will also continue. Construction of the new geriatric unit at St. Oliver Plunkett hospital will proceed. The building of the new 100 bed replacement geriatric unit at the Sacred Heart Home, Carlow, has just started and planning for other major projects at Dungarvan and elsewhere will continue.

I will also be providing funds to build or plan a number of new health centres and clinics, and to improve existing community care premises. Tenders have been accepted for Blessington health centre. In the case of the proposed health centre for Athlone planning is at an advanced stage and it is hoped that the scheme will go to tender before the end of the year. In addition, community-based treatment and rehabilitation facilities for drug abusers will be developed and the youth development centre at Dundrum is now virtually complete.

All these projects represent the commitment of additional investment in the health services in building up a modern infrastructure suited to today's needs.

As a broad guide to the ways in which resources are applied I would refer Deputies to the 1984 edition of Statistical Information Relevant to the Health Services which I circulated some time ago. This volume contains a wide variety of useful information in the fields of vital and health statistics. It gives a very good view of the range of activity in the health service and the framework within which the services function. It also contains a section on vital statistics and the trends in this area have, of course, a significant bearing on demand for health services. The sections of the population aged under 15 years and over 65 make particularly heavy demands on the health services. The high proportion of our population in these dependent age groups relative to other developed countries is a noteworthy feature of Irish demography. The number of elderly people is of particular relevance since much increased utilisation of health services is a feature of advancing years. While people aged 65 and over represent about 11 per cent of the population, they occupy on average about 40 per cent of the beds in our acute hospitals.

Other points of interest in our demographic trends are the increase in life expectancy, the continuing decline in infant mortality and the decline in births in recent years. The decline both in the number of births and the birth rate is quite marked. For example, the annual number of births declined by more than 7,000 between 1980 and 1983. Looking at that figure, and bearing in mind the demand for extra staff, one wonders what the talk is all about. However, the point is relevant and one which is difficult to get across to people. The collation and publication of these statistics and identifying the trends they imply are an important element in the planning of future health policies.

The strategy for health services over the next three years has been set out in the national plan —Building on Reality. The future objectives of health policy have been shaped by a continuing increase in demand at a time of general financial restriction. The main elements in the development of policy will be a shift towards prevention of disease and an emphasis on community care, ensuring that scarce resources are directed more specifically at those in greatest need.

While there will be a modest decline in real terms in the resources available for health services over the period of the plan, the very fact of knowing the parameters within which we must work over the three years facilitates a planned and orderly approach to the allocation of resources. I am confident that we will not only be able to preserve the essential fabric of our existing services but to re-deploy resources as necessary to develop other essential services in the health area. At the same time we have set ourselves the challenge of delivering in each of the years 1985 to 1987 a more cost-effective service to the public. At the end of the day this theme of "value for money" must be the goal at a time of financial scarcity and in this respect I think I would have the agreement of the providers of services as well as the general health economists and other commentators.

I am conscious of the dependent relationship between the commitment of health staffs and achievement of the objectives set for the health services. The strength, efficiency and effectiveness of the health service is largely dependent on the skills, training, motivation and overall competence of its personnel. In the public mind the perception of the health services is of doctors and nurses attending to the needs of the sick and the dying. However, they are, of course, supported by a whole range of staff, services and equipment — for example, in the areas of catering, housekeeping, maintenance and administration. One is talking about close on 60,000 persons in the service.

In the current economic climate the health service is being asked to increase staff productivity by maintaining the overall quality of services while reducing the number of man hours worked, broadly in line with the level of reductions sought in the Civil Service. This, of course, is not an easy task. But since restrictions on staffing were first introduced in 1981 — they were introduced by the Opposition although there is not a peep out of them now when it comes to the implementation of the policy, but that is another fact of life we are facing— the health service has generally managed, with some exceptions in 1984, to live within its pay allocation.

Much, however, still remains to be done to ensure that expenditure on staff resources is tightly controlled and that the resources are used in the most effective manner. The bulk of health employees work in hospitals which are organisations of considerable complexity. The hospital and other institutional settings provide the greatest opportunity for planned changes in personnel productivity because of the large concentration of personnel within individual physical facilities, the interaction between the many different categories of staff in the delivery of a total service and the pace and extent of technological development, particularly in the acute hospital area.

Very little research or study has been conducted here in identifying areas for decreasing costs and improving the performance of hospital manpower. Between 1978-79 the Department of Health, under the direction of the Minister of the day, inquired from health boards why they were not employing more staff and demanding that they take some more on. Health boards replied that they did not need them, but they were directed to take them on and ensure that returns were sent to the Department so that the new employees, whether needed or not, could be informed of how wonderful it was that they could be given jobs. The taxpayer is paying for that ever since.

The pursuit of this objective of identifying areas for decreasing costs and improving the performance of hospital manpower must become a matter of major priority in the coming year and in the years ahead. It is a task to which each agency must address itself and in which all the necessary support and assistance from my Department will be made available.

The way in which health personnel perceive their responsibilities is critical to the control of expenditure and the achievement of value for money. The employing agency controls the amount of resources made available; the resource user determines, to a large extent, the value obtained for the expenditure. It is this reality which makes management in the health services particularly difficult; but there are proven means of coping, provided there is the willingness and ability to invest heavily in information systems and in the development of people as managers.

I would now like to refer briefly to what is being done in these areas by the Department. In the health services, we have embarked on a major programme to improve various facets of information. We are doing this during a period in which resources will continue to be scarce and existing resources must be creatively managed in order to maintain the required quality and quantity of those services deemed to be most essential. We must give far greater attention than heretofore to what outcomes the service produces as well as looking at all aspects of cost. In many respects the challenge to the health services in the next few years is to move smoothly from administration to management of resources.

The first objective of the programme for the improvement of systems is to provide a better service for patients and clients. It is hoped that good systems will lead to safer, quicker communication between professionals and will also lead to quicker throughput of patients, particularly in large general hospitals. The provision of additional more rapid information on patients and clients will help to frame more effective policies and procedures on admissions to hospitals and institutions.

The second objective is to support the development and implementation of accountable devolved management throughout the system. The ultimate aim is to enable resource users to become budget holders and provide them with accurate timely information not only on what has happened but what is happening. We must provide an early warning system at various levels of management so that corrective action can be taken quickly when budget targets are not being met or agreed outputs are not being achieved.

The third objective is to improve the quantity and quality of information available for policy formulation and review, for planning and resource allocation. Better information on what is being achieved in the service and at what cost will provide an improved basis of resource allocation at national level. It will also help to provide more reliable comparisons between different parts of the service and it will provide a scope for increased use of modelling, helping managements to predict the likely outcomes of various policy alternatives.

Finally, the improvement in information systems, properly adapted, will provide a better basis for research. The availability of more and better information on both outputs and inputs should aid both services research and epidemiology, both of which are crucial to the maintenance of good standards and the taking of correct policy decisions. I was amazed at the lack of detailed effective information when I took office. A lot of the inadequacies were identified and action taken. I have no doubt that we will have greater aspects of critical information available to us in 1985 and the years ahead.

Eligibility for medical cards is normally determined by the chief executive officer of the appropriate health board by reference to agreed income guidelines. I was pleased to be able to announce the revision of these guidelines with effect from 1 January 1985. The new guidelines compensate fully for changes in the cost of living during 1984.

Included in these guidelines is an age allowance for persons aged 66 years and over. This age allowance was introduced from 1 July 1984 and amounts to £5 per week for a single person aged between 66 and 80 years and £8 per week for a person aged 80 years or over. The allowance is doubled if the individual is married. The introduction of this allowance marked a significant improvement in the position of people aged 66 and over.

In accordance with the guidelines a married man aged 66 years or over can have income of up to £100.50 per week — £106.50 if over 80 years — and be entitled to a medical card. This limit will be higher if he has outgoings in excess of £10 per week in respect of his house. At 31 March last, 37.2 per cent of the population were covered by medical cards as compared with 36.75 per cent on 31 December 1984.

The income ceiling for hospital service cards which entitles the holder to free hospital consultant services was increased to £13,500 with effect from 1 June 1985. This revised figure applies to income earned in the year ending 5 April 1985.

Responsibility for collection of current contributions from farmers was transferred from the health boards to the Revenue Commissioners on 6 April 1984. The collection of arrears outstanding on that date remains the responsibility of the health boards. In the 12 month period ending on 31 December 1984, a total of £2.3 million was collected by the health boards as farmers' health contributions. The boards will continue their efforts to recover these arrears, taking legal proceedings if necessary, in a selected number of cases. As an incentive to the boards I have arranged, with the agreement of the Minister for Finance, that the boards will be given the benefit of arrears of health contributions which they collect from farmers in the course of the year commencing on 1 January 1985.

Because of the limited time available, I will shorten my speech. In my circulated script I have said how these contributions will be credited to the Exchequer and then I said that the regulations to give effect to the proposal to apply an admission charge of £100 to any person presenting for hospital treatment who is in arrears with health contributions came into operation on 1 June 1984 and I went on to clarify that aspect. Regarding legislation, my Department have in hands the preparation of a range of legislation designed to improve a variety of aspects of the health and welfare services.

As regards the Children Bills, one of my primary objectives as Minister for Health is to reform the law in relation to the care and protection of children. Our present provisions in relation to children are based largely on legislation dating from 1908. Much of it is now outdated and is not sufficiently in keeping with current concepts in regard to child care. In the next part of my speech I deal with the first of the three Bills now before the House and set out the new arrangements.

On the question of adoption, my Department are in the process of preparing the scheme of a Bill to amend the Adoption Acts, in the light of the recommendations of the Review Committee on Adoption Services. I hope to be in a position to circulate this Bill towards the end of this year.

The Minister for Justice, for his part, has circulated for discussion the draft text of a Status of Children Bill. This aims to eliminate as far as possible the differences that now exist between the way in which the law treats children born inside marriage and those born outside marriage.

The Government are also committed to bringing forward revised measures in regard to juvenile justice. This will be the subject of a further Bill. I am confident that these Bills taken together will give us a solid body of enlightened and up-to-date legislation in relation to children.

Under the new Dentists Act, 1985, I expect the new Dental Council to be set up and hold their inaugural meeting early in November next.

Members of the House will be familiar with both the purpose and the detail of the Nurses Bill. This major legislation will update and replace existing legislation to restructure An Bord Altranais, to improve the arrangements for the regulation of the profession and to give statutory effect to the EC directives. The Bill was passed by the Dáil on 22 May, and hopefully will complete its passage through the Seanad in the early autumn. I am glad the Seanad will be taking the Second Stage of this Bill later this month.

The enactment of this Bill will provide a very good statutory framework for the future development of the profession and the further enhancement of its contribution to the health services. I would like to take this opportunity to pay a special tribute to the work which has been undertaken by the current board and by its chief executive in not only dealing with the problems of today but in doing much of the groundwork necessary to quickly implement the provisions of the new Bill.

Today I circulated the Health (Amendment) Act, 1985, to amend the Health Acts, 1947 to 1970, to enable health boards to charge for services provided for victims of road traffic accidents. Charges had been made for these services under Article 6 of the Health Services Regulations, 1971, but the Supreme Court has ruled that the provisions of this sub-article were ultra-vires the powers conferred on the Minister for Health. I have rectified the position in the Bill circulated today. The loss in revenue to health boards and hospitals resulting from this decision is estimated at £4 million to £5 million in a year.

I now come to the registration of hospitals and homes. For a considerable time it has been my view that there is a glaring omission in our legislation in that there was no control or statutory regulation governing the establishment of most types of hospitals and nursing homes outside of those administered by health boards or corporate bodies. Such statutory regulation, I believe, is essential and long overdue. I have drawn up detailed proposals for appropriate legislation in this area. A considerable amount of work has already been done and I would hope to have my proposals completed in the very near future.

For some time past it has been evident that there is need to up-date certain provisions in the Voluntary Health Insurance Act, 1957, to take account of significant changes which have occurred since the Voluntary Health Insurance Board was originally set up. These changes include the remarkable growth in membership of the Voluntary Health Insurance Board's schemes which now exceeds 366,000 and covers a total of over 1,000,000 persons. Other factors are the considerable expansion of health service facilities over the last two decades and in more recent times proposals by entrepreneurial interests to establish a number of private hospitals in which treatment costs are likely to far exceed treatment costs in the existing range of hospital facilities. I hope to introduce the necessary amendments to the VHI Act during the course of the current year.

Members of the House will be aware of the decision of the Supreme Court regarding maternity services at Monaghan Hospital. I have considered carefully the implications of that decision and have come to the conclusion that an amendment to the Health Act, 1970, is necessary. Otherwise we would be faced with an absurd situation in which it might be impossible to discontinue any hospital service no longer required. I have recently submitted proposals to Government in this regard.

Regarding family planning, Members of the House will be aware of the significant improvement in access to family planning services marked by the recent passage of the Health (Family Planning) (Amendment) Act, 1985, by the Oireachtas.

The effect of the Act will be to spare people of mature years and, indeed, in many cases young years the inconvenience and unnecessary expense involved under existing legislation in obtaining a medical prescription for condoms. It will also extend the outlets from which non-medical contraceptives may be purchased to include doctor's surgeries, health centres, licensed family planning clinics and voluntary hospitals providing maternity services or services for the treatment of sexually transmitted diseases.

As regards the setting of the age limit at 18, all parties in the Oireachtas had already decided last year, with hardly a dissenting voice, that the age of majority should be reduced to 18 years and this change has been duly effected by the Age of Majority Act, 1984. This Act essentially confers full adult status upon each citizen at 18 years of age with regard to rights, duties and responsibilities in general. It would have been quite ludicrous to have ignored this recent Age of Majority Act in the context of setting the age limit in the amended family planning legislation.

I am currently examining the measures which need to be taken to give effect to the objectives of the new legislation, including an up-to-date survey of the present availability of services around the country. On completion of this examination, I will bring the 1985 Act into effect. I anticipate that I will be in a position to do so shortly.

I now come to the care programmes. Quite apart from the introduction of new legislation, my Department are continuing their efforts in the development of health policies and in making the services more responsive to real needs.

Regarding community protection, as indicated in the national plan, a major growth in emphasis can be expected in the future in the whole area of preventive health care. While we now live longer and enjoy better health than any previous generation, we still suffer from much preventable death and illness by the standards of comparable countries.

There is widespread agreement that lives could be saved and active life prolonged by an effective programme of health promotion throughout our community. Health promotion is both the responsibility of the individual and of society at large.

The Health Education Bureau have had considerable success in getting the message across to people that health is a limited resource which can be husbanded and protected by pursuing a lifestyle which gives health every chance. They have placed particular emphasis on encouraging young people not to smoke and to drink in moderation. I made an additional £500,000 available to the bureau to develop their promotional activities in this field and there is evidence of that in our community.

As Minister for Health, I have a responsibility to encourage a more responsible attitude to smoking in society. My aim is to encourage an environment in which the pressure to smoke is reduced and in which the entitlement of non-smokers to a smoke-free environment is respected. To this end, I have the agreement of Government to strengthen existing controls on tobacco advertising and to introduce new legislation to restrict smoking in certain public places and to impose a levy on the advertising budgets of tobacco companies, the proceeds of which will assist the Health Education Bureau to extend their activities in counteracting the harmful effects of smoking. A range of other initiatives is also being taken in the preventive area.

Regarding infectious diseases, I will be launching a measles vaccination programme in the autumn as part of my Department's recommended programme of immunisation and vaccination. Contrary to the popular perception, measles can be a serious illness. It gives rise to expenditure in the health services which is avoidable if an effective immunisation programme, which can be established at considerably less cost, is in operation. The necessary arrangements to ensure the success of this programme are now well under way, including the arrangements to involve general practitioners for the first time officially in the Department's recommended programme.

In the area of sexually transmitted diseases, a review of my Department's control measures is now under way. The 1981 Infectious Diseases Regulations are being revised to make provision for the notification of certain non-specific diseases which are becoming more common in the community. The Department's circular on sexually transmitted diseases is also being revised and up-dated to ensure that an adequate STD service is being provided in all health board areas.

Regarding the acquired immune deficiency syndrome, known as AIDS, this is a relatively new illness which was not recognised as a disease entity until 1984. In July 1984 my Department established a detailed monitoring system identical with that used by the World Health Organisation and the EC. The primary objective of this system is to facilitate the regular dissemination of up-to-date information regarding AIDS and to ensure prompt reporting and surveillance of cases of the syndrome in this country. Six cases of this disease have been seen in Ireland since 1981.

Some concern has been voiced at the danger that this disease might be spread through blood products. The Blood Transfusion Service Board have taken steps to minimise any risk to Irish patients in this regard. All necessary measures are being taken to guarantee the purity of the products supplied by the board.

Regarding drug abuse significant progress has been made in this area since the Misuse of Drugs Act, 1984 was brought into operation.

In the area of education, a set of five video films was developed by the Department of Education, in co-operation with the Health Education Bureau, for use within the context of "Life Skills" type programmes in second level schools, youth club settings, or with parent groups. The HEB also produced, in conjunction with the City of Dublin VEC, a new booklet entitled Understanding Drugs. This is being made available on a limited basis during the current year. Also a lecture series has been organised to accompany the release of the booklet. In addition, I made funds available to Trinity College to enable them to provide a diploma course in addiction studies.

In the area of research, the Medico-Social Research Board were asked to carry out a number of surveys on specific aspects of the drug problem among adolescents. These surveys were completed towards the end of 1984.

The Government Task Force on Drug Abuse recognised that the treatment and rehabilitation facilities currently available for drug abusers were inadequate. In response to this, my Department expedited the planning of an appropriate unit and a suitable location for this has recently been identified and negotiations are now in progress for its possible acquisition.

Additional funds were made available to the Coolmine Therapeutic Community to help them meet the increasing demands being made upon their services. The Coolmine Community also submitted proposals for the expansion of their existing induction centre in the inner-city area of Dublin and the establishment of an induction centre in Dún Laoghaire. I was pleased to be able to make funds available to enable them to proceed with these proposals and, in fact, I recently opened the new centre in Mulgrave Street in Dún Laoghaire.

In addition to the foregoing, the task force also recommended that a new national co-ordinating committee should be established to replace the existing inter departmental committee which was set up on an informal basis without specific terms of reference. I established this new committee earlier this year. This committee now have the responsibility for monitoring progress made in implementing all of the recommendations of the task force and they will be obliged to submit a report to the Minister for Health annually.

Two meetings of Health Ministers of the EC were convened during the Irish and Italian Presidencies in 1984 and 1985 to discuss health questions, including that of drug abuse. A very wide and fruitful exchange of views took place on the drug problem and it was agreed that the EC had an important role to play in this area. The Commission are actively pursuing this at the moment.

Regarding clinical trials, I have completed consultations on an outline of my proposals for the legislative control of clinical drug trials and I have obtained Government approval to the preparation and introduction of a Bill for this purpose.

Regarding the licensing of non-proprietary medicines, in October 1984 I introduced the Medical Preparations (Licensing, Advertisement and Sale) Regulations, 1984. The purpose of these regulations is to control the marketing of medicines for human use. The control is effected by means of a common licensing scheme which applies to all human medicines, both proprietary and non-proprietary, namely generic. The regulations replaced the European Communities (Proprietary Medicinal Products) Regulations, 1975, which related only to proprietary medicines.

Regarding milk and meat, a number of Deputies have raised this issue on a number of occasions in the House. Health boards are continuing their food sampling programmes at retail outlets and pay particular attention to meat and milk. The system of severe financial penalties introduced by my colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, which applies to producers of liquid milk who supply milk contaminated with antibiotics has proved to be a very effective control measure.

The condition of slaughterhouses supplying meat for the home market has been a continuing cause of concern to both the Minister for Agriculture and myself over the years. The Government have now decided that the standards of meat inspection and hygiene at these slaughterhouses must be brought up to the standard which already applies at our meat export factories.

My Department are in close touch with the Department of Energy concerning the discharging of radioactive waste from the nuclear processing plant at Sellafield. Following on the report of the Independent Advisory Group set up in the UK under the chairmanship of Sir Douglas Black on the investigations carried out into the possible increased incidence of cancer in West Cumbria, my Department set up an epidemiological study into the incidence of childhood leukaemia in this country. This study is well advanced. It is only when this study is completed that it will be possible to establish whether or not there is an increase in these cases on the eastern seaboard. This study will also examine the available evidence relating to the hypothesis that there is an excess of Down's Syndrome on the eastern seaboard.

There is a growing awareness of the environment and a developing awareness of the influence which the environment can have on the health of our people. I am anxious to foster this awareness of what we call "environmental health". Incidentally, the air conditioning system in Leinster House could do with a little "environmental health" from time to time.

A good deal has been spoken and written about the environment in recent years. However, sometimes there can be a tendency in the debate and among the various bodies dealing with environmental issues not to give due attention to the environmental health aspects. I think it is not always appreciated that a concern for environmental health is intrinsic to, and cannot be separated from, a concern for the environment generally. It can be readily seen there are implications for environmental health in the activities of a wide range of Government Departments and agencies and I am anxious that there should be a general understanding between them of their responsibilities in this regard.

The inner city of Dublin is in dire condition and any Minister for Health who survives a number of years in the Custom House which is in the centre of the city deserves a medal and the staff who work there deserve certificates. I hope that in the immediate future the Minister for the Environment and I will endeavour to make some improvements with regard to air pollution in the centre of Dublin. The situation is extremely bad and there is urgent need for stringent action.

Regarding the report of the working party on the GMS, I have outlined data well known to Deputies here. Negotiations between my Department and the IMO arising from the report commenced last December. These discussions are at an advanced stage and I hope they will result in significant improvement in the operation of the GMS scheme.

The cost of pharmaceuticals such as drugs and medicines is a major and readily identifiable component of overall costs in the operation of our health services. We are spending £115 million per year in this area. My Department are examining several aspects of the matter, including the degree to which further economies and savings are achievable.

The overall position of the public health services in this regard has improved significantly under the terms of the present agreement between the Department of Health and the Federation of Irish Chemical Industries. The present agreement has effectively controlled the prices of drugs used by the GMS scheme and by the various publicly funded health institutions. The savings to the taxpayer effected by the terms of this agreement are estimated at about £12 million for 1984. That is not to say I will not be taking a rigorous look at the agreement which expires at the end of September. Negotiations have commenced already with a view to drawing up terms for a new agreement to take effect from 1 October next.

The general review of public dental services which commenced in 1982 is continuing. The parties to the review are the Departments of Health and Social Welfare and the Irish Dental Association. Although the present financial situation will not permit the implementation of any modification to the existing services which would involve additional funding, the review is being continued on the basis that it will provide a blueprint for possible future developments when financial circumstances permit. A national survey of the dental health of children was undertaken in March-June of 1984. Approximately 7,500 children were examined. It was an extremely valuable survey and, at a cost of £120,000 which was financed by the Department of Health, it was money well spent. I was very pleased at the exceptional competence of that report.

In the context of the commitment to community services in the national plan, the provision of an effective home nursing service, especially in regard to the aged, is a priority. To be fully effective, a home nursing service needs to be complemented by an expanded home help and meals-on-wheels service. The plan recognised that the integration of medical and social services holds the potential to ensure a comprehensive and planned response to the needs of vulnerable groups. I will do everything possible to expand that service.

The last major review of services for the elderly was the 1968 report. We are now embarking on a further major review and I hope to have that report published within 18 months. The Department have been exceptionally busy with their work. The reappointed National Council for the Aged have published valuable research papers on matters affecting the aged and they, with the Department, have done a great deal of work in that area.

The Government in the document Building on Reality announced that special attention would be given to the needs of travelling people. My Department have a particular responsibility in this area. A monitoring committee was established in September last to review progress towards the Government's objectives. I am pleased to say there has been satisfactory progress in the key areas of health, accommodation, labour and education. There have been monthly meetings and reviews and action has been taken on the matter. My Department have issued comprehensive guidelines on a number of essential health services for travellers. The important additional point I would bring to the attention of Members is that following discussions between the Eastern Health Board and the Department a pilot mobile health clinic for travellers in the Dublin area was scheduled to operate from early July. It is in operation this week. If any Deputy wishes to see the clinic he is welcome to make the arrangement. The clinic will provide developmental services, anteand post-natal care, immunisation and health education for travellers. It represents potentially one of the most significant advances in the provision of health services for the travelling community. I expect to visit it next week. This has been particularly useful.

Regarding the homeless, I am glad to say that the report of the ad hoc committee was completed in December, 1984. The report sets out the guidelines to be followed by statutory agencies with responsibility for the care and accommodation of homeless people. I hope the local authorities and the health boards will be able to respond quickly and decisively to the problem of the homeless.

The work of the National Social Services Board has continued apace. It is doing excellent work and I want to commend that board which was appointed last July for the exceptional work they have been doing for the last 12 months.

I now come to the psychiatric services programme. I have received the report of the study group which was established in this area. I have circulated the report to the various parties concerned and I will be pressing for early implementation of the report's recommendations.

The study group report envisages a gradual transition from a service provided mainly in the larger psychiatric hospitals to one which is largely community-based and where in-patient treatment is only one component in a network of services. The steps needed to bring about this major change are described in the report and quantitative norms are set out for the provision of the various services. In particular, these services include day services and workshops, out-patient clinics, hostels and other forms of residential accommodation.

I will be pressing forward with work in this area. For example, out-patient clinics are now well established in all of the health board areas. Day care services are also on the increase, while there are now some 1,000 places in hostels for the mentally ill. I am confident that there is potential for placing many more patients in this form of community-based accommodation and this will be given special attention in future. Equally, I made a substantial sum of money available in the last three years to carry out improvements in the living conditions of patients in these hospitals. I have been around to a number of the hospitals. The improvements are visible. They are certainly well overdue and they were badly needed but the work is being done and I would invite Deputies who want to see particular aspects of the work to visit the hospitals concerned.

The Green Paper on Services for Disabled People was published in April of last year. One of the aims of the Green Paper was to stimulate a debate among disabled people and the various groups specifically interested in this area. I have now received a number of detailed submissions on the paper. I shall be arranging for officers of my Department to meet with the organisations and I intend to hold a conference in the near future to discuss certain key areas in the Green Paper.

Regarding the physically disabled, as assured in the Green Paper, I am making provision in the capital programme for the introduction of a number of improvements in the residential care area for the physically disabled. I recently announced that I was making funds totalling almost £10 million available for the developments in St. Mary's Home for the Blind, Merrion. These improvements will include new accommodation for the adult blind to replace the existing out-dated facilities, as well as a new children's residence. Planning of both of these projects are proceeding and I expect building of the children's unit to commence this year.

I was also pleased to make capítal funds available for the Barrett Cheshire Home, Dublin and the St. Laurence's Cheshire Home, Cork. I am providing a grant of £200,000 this year to the Barrett Cheshire Home for an eleven-room ground floor extension. I am also making £500,000 available to the St. Laurence's Cheshire Home over a two-year period for the provision of 28 single-bed units to replace existing unsatisfactory accommodation. I have made £80,000 available for the running costs of a new short term hostel for ten to 12 people which is planned for the Cork area. I was down there recently. The hostel will be run by three voluntary organisations for the physically handicapped operating under the group name "ABODE"— Association for the Benefit of the Disabled in the Environment.

Finally in this area I recently announced that I had accepted tenders for the provision of residential accommodation and ancillary facilities for 96 boys at St. Joseph's School for the Deaf, Cabra. The Minister for Education has approved tenders for educational accommodation at the school. Both elements of the project will go ahead in tandem. The total cost of the development will be about £5.2 million of which my Department will be providing about £3.7 million.

Regarding the mentally handicapped services — and here I hope that those who were so busy circulating the parents of the mentally handicapped before the local elections will bear with me when I make the point that I am conscious that much remains to be done before our total needs in the mentally handicapped area are met — I strongly hold the view that in the past two years if I have done anything in the Department of Health I have made very substantial additional resources available in this area. I made additional funds available to supplement resources at the end of 1984 in order to assist them to meet the cost of those projects.

The findings of the census of the mentally handicapped, which was recently published, give rise to questions on the planning norms contained in the 1980 Working Party Report on Services for Mentally Handicapped People. These may need to be reviewed. I have asked senior officials of my Department to report to me on the planning implications raised by the census findings. I can assure Deputies that that area has been a particular priority. In the past year I visited a number of centres and the outstanding work being done in those centres continues to impress all of us enormously.

I now come to the general hospitals programme. In the area of general hospital services the process of rationalisation and development initiated some ten years ago continues to progress. It is ironic that when a Labour Party Minister for Health holds office progress tends to accelerate and they get very little thanks for doing it but the work must be done in the national interest and certainly the work I have managed to do in the last two and half years in this area will I think be accepted in the years ahead as quite exceptional.

In regard to the rationalisation of services, perhaps the most radical changes will take place in the greater Dublin area. The future hospital system in Dublin will be centred on six sites namely, Beaumont, the Mater, St. James's, St. Vincent's, Blanchardstown and Tallaght. These projects are all at various stages of planning and construction. I have been disappointed with some of the attitudes I have encountered particularly in the transfer of Jervis Street and St. Laurences Hospitals to the new Beaumont Hospital. Because of the impasse which has been reached in negotiations with the consultant medical staff of the two hospitals, I have now informed the boards of the two hospitals, Beaumont Hospital Board and the Royal College of Surgeons, that I no longer consider it feasible to transfer the services of Jervis Street and St. Laurence's Hospitals jointly to the new hospital in Beaumont. I have decided consequently that, on a date to be agreed, St. Laurence's Hospital will cease to be funded as a general hospital and all of its services will from then be provided in Beaumont Hospital. I have also decided that the services in Jervis Street Hospital will remain in their present location to the extent and in the form to be agreed with the management of that hospital and will be funded to that extent.

Faced with the responsibility of ensuring that the massive financial resource of £37 million capital cost and approximately £2.5 million so far of equipment which has been put into the construction and fitting out of Beaumont Hospital is utilised without further delay and without further obstruction, I was reluctantly obliged to take these decisions in the light of the protracted but unsuccessful negotiations which have taken place over the past number of months with the consultants concerned.

A substantial number of the consultant medical staff were in favour of changing over but it is the old story of vested interests ruling the roost. I regret that the staff have refused to co-operate with the very reasonable arrangements which have been made to ensure the opening of this hospital. I assure my colleague, Deputy O'Hanlon, that I will not be resigning over this issue. I will be accounting to the electorate on the last Thursday in October 1987 or perhaps the second Thursday as it would be better if it was not too late into the winter, when presumably there will be a general election. The hospital will be open by then.

I have offered the consultants 70 beds in the hospital which has been built and additional beds for acute specialities where these might be required, for example, intensive care, dialysis and so on. There will be a sufficient number of private beds to cover their private practice. As I have already stated there are 750 beds in the hospital.

The money from the beds will go into the hospital budget and no VHI money will go into the coffers of any private company. That is the critical division. It is a public hospital with private beds in it. One must cater for those who are over the income limit and entitled to avail of public or private bed facilities and private consultation. Many more people avail of that than is necessary but that is the position. I have offered to make that space available within the hospital but I assure Deputies that under no circumstances will I agree to give public land on a leased basis to any private company of medical consultants to establish within the campus of the hospital yet another framework of a hospital. I want to see an integrated service, public and private, within the one building.

Where they may want to have private consultations on an outpatient basis, such facilities will be made available within the hospital. I have offered that the totality of the two budgets of the hospitals and all that this entails and all the staff from the two hospitals will go to Beaumont and work there in a very large hospital which will replace the appallingly bad physical conditions in the Richmond and Jervis Street hospitals, conditions which are bad for the staff and particularly bad for the patients and the people of Dublin.

I know that for some reason or other my predecessor caved in when people wanted to lease a slice of land belonging to the taxpayer in order to build another private hospital. I have no objection to people building private hospitals but not on public land and not in the framework of a public hospital.

The Minister is prepared to give them 70 private beds.

Given the scarce resources in the community the money from the 70 beds will go into the ordinary hospital budget of Beaumont. There will be one budget on the site. Presumably the consultants will be paid a private fee for treating patients on a private basis. They would be using public facilities but, as is currently the system, an arrangement would have to be made in that regard.

We have an excellent major new teaching hospital. The design is not as good as I would have wished but then I was not involved in that. My predecessor, Deputy Haughey, was so busy, having it built quickly that he forgot about having an up-to-date design. However, the hospital has now been built and it is of a high standard. The contractor was excellent.

Is the Minister suggesting that Wilton is also unsatisfactory?

The finish in Beaumont is better than in Wilton.

One was designed on the other.

On balance, Beaumont will probably stand up to wear and tear better than the Cork Regional Hospital.

Perhaps it was not such a bad idea after all to use the design of Wilton for Beaumont.

I do not believe in building——

The Minister would not have built it at all.

Like Ardkeen and the others, although the Minister probably would as it is within the Pale.

I would not have sold out the public interest having just built it. That is what happened. Fianna Fáil's capacity to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds never ceases to amaze me.

I assure my colleagues that I will enter into urgent consultations with the board of the Richmond Hospital and with the trade unions there with a view to effecting the transfer as a matter of urgency. I do not suffer from any anti-consultant attitudes or any obscurantist ideological viewpoints. My intention is to provide an acute hospital service without complications to the people in the catchment area which number approximately 200,000. That can be done effectively with a little co-operation.

How are the negotiations proceeding with the other 22 unions in the Richmond and Jervis Street hospitals concerning the transfer to Beaumont? The Minister did not refer to that tonight.

As a former trade union official I am acutely aware of the difficulties there. I will be devoting my energies to that matter and have no doubt that we will succeed.

Sure there are no difficulties there, it is only with the consultants.

Perhaps the Opposition will co-operate with us in that regard.

In the Southern Health Board area the opening of the Cork Regional Hospital in 1978 and of the new Tralee General Hospital in 1984, provided a very firm foundation for a modern general hospital service. My intention is to build on that foundation.

Some time ago I announced a very significant development in the area in the establishment of cardiac surgery in the Regional Hospital, Cork. The detailed arrangements are now being worked out between officers of my Department and the Southern Health Board and the service is expected to be in operation later this year. The generous contribution of £250,000 by the Ford Motor Company will be of considerable help in getting the new service off the ground. In that regard I wish to thank Mr. Patrick Hayes of the company. On behalf of taxpayers generally and more particularly those who will benefit directly from the new service I want to put on record my thanks and the thanks of the Department of Health to this company for their gesture.

It has been quite clear for some time that there was an urgent need for rationalisation of the services being provided by the Cork voluntary hospitals. While the long term plan for the voluntary hospitals was that they should be replaced by a new general hospital, it is obvious that because of the level of resources required this is not feasible for the foreseeable future. I know my predecessor had an obscure plan for another major general hospital in Cork city. That is not on as there are plenty of hospitals in Cork. The problem is to integrate the services there and the rationalisation of existing services is now being planned in consultation with the hospital authorities. Already, the South Infirmary and the Victoria Hospital have agreed to amalgamate their services and operate as a single hospital complex. I wish to thank the boards of those two hospitals and the consultant staff of both hospitals coming as they do from a different ethos in many respects for their outstanding co-operation.

There is the odd reasonable consultant.

Where Cork leads, Dublin will follow and Ardkeen will follow also.

I have my doubts.

It has been agreed also that a central pathology laboratory should be based at Mercy Hospital to serve the requirements of all the voluntary hospitals. Discussions are taking place about the future organisation of ENT services in the area and it is hoped to finalise those without delay. My Department have commenced discussions also with the Mercy Hospital and the North Infirmary to consider how an association between the two hospitals in the provision of services could be achieved. I hope to have the co-operation of public representatives and of the consultant staffs of these two hospitals in these basic co-operative discussions on association and that people will restrain themselves from instilling fear into the populaton regarding the North Infirmary and that we can proceed towards the delivery of the services in the Cork area. At the same time discussions have taken place with the Cork Eye, Ear and Throat Hospital and I have decided that the ophthalmic service will be transferred from that hospital to the Cork Regional Hospital and the ENT services to the other voluntary hospitals. While the Cork Eye, Ear and Throat Hospital has for so many years provided a significant service to the people of Cork and its catchment area, I believe everyone accepts that the rationalisation of the services it provides is a logical development which can only advance further the level of treatment available to the population.

Regarding the Southern Health Board area, regardless of what other problems there may be, I have received outstanding co-operation in the Cork area from all of these hospitals. This is a measure of what can be done. Where rationalisation is taking place it is being implemented quite rapidly and there has been no great furore. This is an indication of what can be done on a cost effective basis. Equally, I commend the Midland Health Board who have an outstanding record in their efforts to rationalise and simultaneously to improve services and now there is the decision to concentrate the maternity services for Laois-Offaly in Portlaoise where a paediatric service will also be established. That question broke the heart of Brendan Corish and of all his successors since. The decision has not been reached without some pain and some controversy but it is now being implemented. Portlaoise will have the maternity services while Tullamore will have the regional orthopaedic service and later services in ENT and opthalmology as resources become available. I am pleased that the recruitment process for the two consultant orthopaedic surgeons is well in hand.

What about the funding for the paediatrician?

It has been a source of acute embarrassment that the midlands is the only major area of the country not to have paediatric cover but I have spared no resource in having a paediatric service provided for the area as a matter of urgency.

Has the Minister agreed to the necessary funding also?

First, we had to provide the necessary space in the hospital at Portlaoise.

Has funding been agreed for a paediatric service for Portlaoise?

There will be a paediatrician in situ so the Deputy need not be concerned on that account.

But the Minister has not agreed to the funding in this respect.

Local long stay units for geriatric patients in Edenderry, Tullamore and Birr have been established. The plan envisages also an enhancement of the role of Athlone District Hospital in the establishment of an industrial medical and nursing unit in association with local industrialists. Envisaged also is a 24 hour accident and emergency service to be provided by a rota of local general practitioners.

I am convinced that the plan offers the most realistic prospect of a comprehensive high quality hospital service for the midland area. I should like to pay tribute to the board of management and to the CEO for their ingenuity and realism in formulating the plan and to the members of the Midland Health Board and to their Chairman, Tom Keenan, who has done outstanding work in that capacity. While some may be unhappy——

Including the Minister for Defence.

When he is unhappy, I am unhappy, too. I am confident that as the implementation of the plan proceeds, the vast majority of people in the midland area will appreciate the wisdom of the approach adopted.

I had hoped in so far as possible to cover the work of the Department which in the past 12 months has been very intensive but I must have regard to the time element.

I have been giving particular attention to the service requirements for the elderly and I have allocated substantial resources for the replacement of totally inadequate facilities and the development of new facilities as required.

In the Eastern Health Board area, a medium term programme for the development of institutional geriatric facilities has been prepared jointly by my Department and the Eastern Health Board. In the next number of years, I will be making capital funds available to enable this programme to be implemented.

Already a major scheme of development has begun in the Royal Hospital, Donnybrook. Up-grading schemes are also being implemented at Brú Caoimhín and Leopardstown Park Hospital. A unit for the young chronic sick is also being provided at Saint Mary's Hospital, Phoenix Park.

Elsewhere a new geriatric hospital is under construction in Dundalk and a similar project is about to commence in Carlow.

A great deal needs to be done to bring our geriatric services up to a reasonable standard. I intend to pursue the agreed programme of development as quickly as possible. At the same time, it is clear to me that the existing regulations governing the minimum standards in nursing homes are inadequate and should be revised. I have examined this in detail and will be finalising my proposals for revision of the regulations very shortly.

While all of this represents a considerable achievement in terms of health service provision for a country of our size and state of development it would be short-sighted to think that there is no more to be done or no improvements to be made in the way we currently operate our services. I am daily reminded of the many unmet demands for social services generally in our society and would freely acknowledge the need for improvement in many areas. I am equally conscious, however, of the tight constraints on resources for the foreseeable future and this imposes an obligation on us all to do things in such a way that the available resources are used to the best effect.

It is fair to say that a great deal of energy is already devoted to this in the health services. One example is the valuable work undertaken by the National Health Council.

In March 1984 I appointed members of the National Health Council. This is a statutory advisory body who were first established in 1948 but the membership of which was allowed to lapse in 1978. I have appointed 36 members of the council for a two-year term ending in March 1986. They are representative of the main interests involved in the provision of the health service and also of the consumer.

It is useful to have a body such as this who, because of their composition, should be able to give advice to me from a broadly-based perspective. Already the council have given their views on a number of draft regulations which I referred to them. They have also made an important and constructive submission to me in advance of the preparation of the national plan. They are now doing additional work in other areas.

Though health research tends to attract little public interest it is potentially of great importance. Changing economic and social conditions have brought with them a change in the spectrum of illness. Research must, therefore address itself to the demands and hazards of our changing environment and life-styles, particularly those that may be peculiar to this country. I am anxious, therefore, that the publicly funded research structure should be such that it can best meet the requirements of these changing conditions.

State-supported research of a medical or medico-social nature is at present carried out by two separate bodies, namely, the Medical Research Council of Ireland and the Medico-Social Research Board.

With a view to a more efficient management of research resources I have proposed that all research conducted by these two bodies be brought under the management of a single statutory authority. I am determined to bring about this change without further delay and have, on Monday last, appointed an Assistant Secretary of the Department to the Chairmanship of the Medico Social Research Board to complete the process by the end of this year.

In conclusion, let me refer to a topic to which I have repeatedly made reference, especially in the past 12 months or so and indeed in the House on many occasions and at meetings and seminars throughout the country, namely, the structures by which our health delivery care system is run. I have reviewed the administration of the service comprehensively. I am convinced that it is far too fragmented and, indeed, complicated for a country of 3.5 million population. I am convinced that the separation of major hospitals and indeed mental handicap services from the health board system is an inherent weakness, particularly in resource distribution. I am convinced that the local health committees as at present structured do not reflect the immediate health needs of the local areas they purport to represent and that, in short, the structure needs to be drastically overhauled and streamlined. I am therefore at this time preparing a submission to Government arising from all of the above on my clearcut conclusions with suggestions as to how the situation can be remedied and more efficient results can be obtained from the considerable sums of Exchequer moneys being made available to the health services.

Will the Minister deal with the common selection procedure at that time as well, considering that he promised it two and half years ago?

It is a separate issue but I am dealing with that at present.

Christmas is coming too.

I hope I shall get co-operation there as well. The final point I made has more to do with the structural organisation of the health services at national, local and health board level. It is to that area that I will be addressing that aspect.

I thank my colleagues for the tolerance they have shown listening to this report. We are coming up to the Summer Recess. The Dáil Adjournment Debate tends to be no more than half an hour at most. I thought it would be a valuable exercise to put these major developments on record. I thank my colleagues, particularly those on the Opposition benches for their tolerance in bearing with me at such length.

While the Minister has gone through 52 pages of a script I would be prepared to give him another five or ten minutes to explain what he means by the last paragraph he read out. It appears to me that it can mean a lot of things. It appears that what he intends is that the health boards would take over all the services, the voluntary hospitals, the lot.

I am sorry if that particular construction can be put on it.

Having listened to the script I should say it is very far removed from the reality of the health services as they obtain at present. While I know the Minister would not have attended health board meetings, although he would have met representatives of the health boards when he met the CEOs and the chairman of health boards, I do not belive that reports of health boards were even read. The Minister's script does not deal at all with what has been the major feature of the health services over the last 12 months, which is the effect of the cutbacks since the last Estimate for this Department was moved.

The Estimate about which we are speaking this evening is for a sum not exceeding £1,070,828,000 which in effect constitutes a 5½ per cent reduction in the moneys allocated to the health services since the present Government came into office. That has had very serious consequences.

I might quote two short passages from the early part of the Minister's remarks. He said:

I am firmly convinced, however, that the funds available are sufficient to enable vital services to be maintained at a satisfactory level and I am also convinced that efficient management of that resource would ensure that the community would be guaranteed the health services essential to its well being. Extreme and irresponsible comments on the situation are not helpful.

The Minister later had this to say:

I am confident that we will not only be able to preserve the essential fabric of our existing services but to re-deploy resources as necessary to develop other essential services in the health area.

That is totally removed from the reality of the situation because any member of the executive of any health board in the country will tell the Minister, or any Member of this House, that they cannot provide the services they are statutorily obliged to do. Certainly, there is no way in which any health board can re-deploy resources for the provision of new services. Everybody in this House, apart from the Minister — and presumably the Government — would accept that that is the reality. All of the health boards had a deficit last year which they have had to carry into this year and they will encounter further difficulties with their financial allocations in 1985. Therefore, far from health boards being able to re-deploy resources from one service to another and provide for new services in their areas, they will find themselves in a very serious state of crisis before the end of this year.

In answer to a question I put down to the Minister in the House on 19 February 1985 about the cutbacks he made much the same comments as he did this evening. When I asked him if he was aware of the concern in health boards that services would be reduced to an intolerable level in the current year and if he would make a statement on the matter he replied as follows:

I am aware of the difficulties involved for health boards in containing their non-capital expenditure in 1985 within approved budgetary levels. Unfortunately, in some instances, exaggerated statements have been made concerning the implications of the budgetary situation for patient care. I am pleased to say that a number of health boards have developed a strategy for 1985 which has, as one of its main objectives, the containment of expenditure within approved allocation levels while at the same time preserving the essential fabric of the services. I am satisfied that it should be possible for all health boards to chart a similar course.

What I should like to know is which of the health boards succeeded in developing a strategy for 1985 which will contain expenditure. I am unaware of any and from my reading of the reports of all eight health boards, I am quite satisfied that that is not a realistic answer to the question. The Minister did say here this evening that exaggerated statements were being made and for political reasons. Perhaps the Minister would tell that to a woman in my constituency who had a lump on her breast and had an appointment with a surgeon. In the same week her child had an appointment with the paediatrician. She was unable to provide transport on both occasions so she hired a taxi to take her child to the paediatrician, neglecting to have the lump on her own breast attended to. Or the Minister should ask the consultant who told me about a patient who came to his outpatients department with a very serious illness. When the consultant went to the matron to ascertain if he could have the patient admitted to the hospital the matron told him he could not have the patient admitted — although there were 40 empty beds there. The Minister should tell him, the people on this side of the House, and people outside who are complaining about the serious situation that they are doing it for political reasons. Or he should tell it to the consultant who found it necessary — a consultant who, as far as I know, does not acknowledge any political affiliation — to write to The Irish Times complaining about the fact that 12 patients waited in a casualty department for admission to hospital; or tell it to a patient with a coronary, of whom I am aware, who waited 15 hours in a casualty Department for admission to hospital. Tell those people that it is playing politics to come into the House and say that a serious situation exists.

It is unfortunate that less than 2 per cent of the Estimate is devoted to prevention. That is an area where we would all agree there should be some development. We welcome the plan to have a major measles vaccine programme in the autumn and also the increased allocation to the Health Education Bureau. I would ask the Minister to look further at what else the Health Education Bureau can do in promoting good health and good lifestyles. In the Estimate last year the Minister told us that he would circulate amending legislation to the Tobacco Bill, before the summer recess of 1984 and this year he has told us that he will be introducing legislation but not when. Is there any reason why it has been delayed? In the Children Bill, the Minister missed a great opportunity to update the legislation in relation to underage drinking. The 1908 Children Act had a provision to cover under-age drinking. It is a pity the Minister did not take the opportunity to update that legislation in relation to what has become a very serious problem in certain areas. It is unfortunate that we did not have one comprehensive Bill in this area rather than the three measures promised by the Minister. While we know the Minister introduced the first phase of that legislation dealing with fostering, glue sniffing and other aspects of child care and that he will introduce legislation on adoption, all we are told about the Juvenile Justice Bill, which is a very important aspect of child care legislation, is that the Government intend to introduce legislation. My concern is that this important legislation will be introduced for instance by the Minister for Justice. That would prove the point that we have been making that we should have one major comprehensive Bill dealing with child care.

The GMS Working Party report has been published and we welcome it and the fact that negotiations are proceeding. There is a serious crisis developing in the general medical service. On 5 June, 1 asked the Minister the estimated over-expenditure of the GMS in each health board area in the current year and if it was intended to correct the deficit and if he would make a statement on the matter. The Minister said that the provision in respect of the expenses of the GMS payments board was £93 million in the current year. My question as to the estimated deficit for each health board area was not answered. I wonder why my question was not answered in view of the fact that on 29 May the GMS payments board had circularised each of the health boards with the information I requested and could not get. The total estimated shortfall in the GMS this year is £8,429,000. The letter gives a breakdown for each health board area. I will not go right down the list because of the time constraint but in the correspondence circularised at the health board meeting was a letter to the secretary of the Department from Mr. Long the administrator of the payments board, dated 16 April 1985. I will quote two paragraphs from it:

The amount allocated by the health boards to the Payments Board is £93 million. The Board has been informed by health boards that payments to the Board will not exceed the amount allocated to them by the Department for this purpose. Expenditure in the first two payment months of 1985 represents 20.7 per cent of total allocation. Expenditure in the same two months of 1984 represented 18.7 per cent of the outturn for that year. On the basis of this trend it is estimated that the Board's allocation will be exhausted not later than November 1985 and the Board will not be in funds to make payment for services given in October and payable in December 1985 unless appropriate steps are taken in the meantime to avoid this situation.

The question also arises as to whether the Board should only pay each month to the amount which would ensure appropriate distribution of its allocation over the 12 months. If instead the Board is to pay claims in full until the allocation is exhausted, then should doctors and pharmacists not be informed in good time that the Board may not be in a position to meet claims at the end of the year. These would appear to be the alternatives that the Board must put to the health boards, for whom its role is to act as agent in paying doctors and pharmacists for the services given under their contracts with the health boards.

There are very serious implications in that letter and it is no exaggeration to say that a very serious crisis is imminent in the delivery of the general medical service to medical card holders. The reason for that is a decision of the Government that in future the funding of the GMS should be by the health boards rather than the payments board. Formerly, the payments board funded that service. It is hard to predict what that service will cost from year to year because if an epidemic of flu for instance broke out, obviously it would raise the visiting rate and the prescribing rate and it would cost more money. This year the health boards are for the first time made responsible for the funding of that service and they are caught as the middle men between the Department and the payments board. They are given £93 million which they hand over to the payments board. They do not have the resources although they were told in a previous letter that they would have to provide their own resources if the allocation which they received for the GMS was insufficient to cater for the needs.

The reality is that the eight health boards have a projected deficit for this year of over £8 million which will have to be found. As the House can see from the letter, what the administrator is suggesting is that in November this year no further payment should be made, in other words there will not be a general medical service for medical card holders, 1.3 million of them, for the last six weeks of this year. That would be a very serious and unfortunate situation. A fundamental element of health philosophy must be to ensure that no person shall be denied medical care because of his inability to provide it from his own resources. While I appreciate the difficulty of people in paying high levels of taxation, I am satisfied that the people are prepared to pay for that very service that will ensure that nobody in this country will suffer because of inability to pay for a health service.

The Government are falling down very badly in regard to providing that level of service at a time of recession and increasing unemployment. The number of medical cards is being reduced in a number of health board areas, the Midland, the Mid-Western, the North-Western and the Western. The number of persons covered by health cards between the end of December 1982 and the end of March 1985 has seen a considerable reduction. That should not be so at a time of recession when more and more people are becoming unemployed.

The Minister said that negotiations were proceeding with the representative bodies of the general practitioners in the scheme, and I hope that these will have a successful outcome. The visiting rate has increased and again this is to be expected, first of all at a time of recession and unemployment but, more importantly, because of the cutbacks affecting the hospital services. People are being discharged earlier because accommodation is not there for them. People have to wait longer to go into hospital, and this inevitably will lead to an increase in the visiting rate by the family doctor outside, and nothing can be done about that.

On the question of generic prescribing, all things being equal, where a generic product is equal in quality a doctor should prescribe it, and doctors must be conscious of the economics of providing medical care. However, one difficulty is that if a doctor writes the generic name of a product he does not know what brand of product is being prescribed. The Minister needs to look at that because going back to 20 years ago when generic products were being brought in by county councils who were administering the health service then and by the health authorities, some of the products did not measure up in terms of quality and bio-availability, and many doctors had no confidence in the generic product. Therefore, if we are to have more generic prescribing we must in some way be assured that if we write the basic name of a product the quality measures up to standard.

The working party report on the GMS contains some suggestions about the inducements to cut the cost of prescribing. I am a little concerned about inducements. I hope that any professional group would do the correct thing medically first and then have the economics of the situation in mind. It should not be necessary to give inducements and there is always the danger that one or two by taking the inducements would perhaps reduce the level of service to below what it should be.

I welcome since our last debate on the Estimate here the establishment of an Irish college of general practitioners. An academic body such as is the college will certainly improve the quality and standard of medical practice.

We have talked about the funding and the difficulties in which the health boards find themselves. It is interesting that a recent report stated that over the last four years there has been no percentage increase in the money allocated to the GMS. The Minister is responsible for withdrawing medical cards from old age pensioners and from students. While he stated over the first two years while he was in office that that decision was made in October 1982 before he came to office, he admitted to the House recently that he was the Minister who implemented the decision in February 1983 to withdraw the medical cards from pensioners. These are people in the older age group who are at high risk, and a case is to be made for a more liberal interpretation of the guidelines. In relation to the guidelines and assessment for eligibility many people face serious difficulties at present particularly in view of the serious crisis situation in the GMS. All the health boards are now much more stringent than they were in allocating medical cards and it is persons who are just above the guidelines, many of them with chronic illnesses, who would normally get a medical card, who are suffering. They are a new poor. These people pay statutory PRSI and income tax which is not taken into account when they apply for a medical card. A person on social assistance who has a net income will have that net income taken into account, but a person who is working will not have his net income taken into account even though it may be lower than that of the person on social assistance, and these people have to pay for all their acute medical care. Some of them also must pay all the various levies, 3 per cent of their income, which they would not have to pay if they had a medical card. They have to pay for a school bus in parts of rural Ireland £3 a week; they have to pay £7 towards their drugs refund if anyone in the household has a chronic illness. This is serious, and I ask the Minister to look at it because there are people who cannot provide from their own resources for medical care for themselves and these people are not receiving medical cards in the way they would have received them, say, a year or two years ago.

The Government came into office on the basis that they would review the 900 items which were the subject of a Private Members' Motion here on which the then Government fell. The 900 items were removed from the GMS list of prescriptions. When the Minister came to office, in fairness to him, he reviewed the list of drugs but, rather than restoring the 900 items to the list, he removed 70 items because they were no longer on the market and 63 items because they were for hospital use only, and 100 items were deleted mainly because they were similar to the items already excluded. Therefore, he increased the number of items that were removed from the list. He restored 96 items to the list but a net increase of 223 items were deleted from the list after the Minister's review when the Government came into office. The Minister's removal of such items as white stomach mixtures and the few remaining cough bottles that were on that list was a retrograde step because many people cannot afford to pay for some of these simple remedies and people with a hiatus hernia or gastritis might need a white stomach mixture. That should be available because there is a tendency to prescribe a more expensive and more potent drug to ensure that people will have something to give them relief. The same applies with simple analgesics for the relief of pain. The most commonly prescribed drug is "Ponstan" which is more potent and expensive than many of the more simple remedies that were available on prescription before the Minister finally removed them.

Regarding the drugs refund scheme, there is much hardship for people, especially those who are just above the guidelines for a medical card. The sum of £28 is a lot of money for these people. The Minister should look again at the scheme.

The long term illness scheme needs to be updated because many incapacitating illnesses are not included — for example, bronchial asthma. There is a society now for people who suffer from lupus and they feel they should be included in the scheme. I would ask the Minister to consider this and to examine the whole scheme to see if some way can be found to provide for people who are seriously incapacitated.

Last year we passed amending legislation dealing with the misuse of drugs. We supported the Government in that legislation. We were disappointed that in the task force there was not a representative of the Department of Finance and also that more powers were not given to customs officials at the point of entry. All the heroin misused in this country is imported. If we could prevent that importation there would be no heroin addiction here. It is difficult to prevent importation but we should aim at it by giving customs officials more power at the point of entry. We should also have a representative of the Department of Finance on the task force dealing with the misuse of drugs.

The Minister did not say what was happening about the inner city drug treatment centre and what the position will be in relation to Jervis Street, St. James's Hospital and Beaumont Hospital.

Regarding the home nursing service, the percentage change in allocation at constant prices is minus 8 per cent for the four years 1980-84. Certainly this is not in keeping with the philosophy of the Government, which we would support, of transferring resources and building up community care services. There has been no significant increase in the home help service. The number of man hours worked in my health board area has reduced over the last two years. With hospital closures and ward closures there should be a significant increase in the number of home helps. In some health board areas a home help can be provided for a patient only by removing the service from someone else. In the Western Health Board area there are 300 beds out of use because of closures. That is the area of the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Donnellan.

I hope the Minister of State will be supporting me in my demands that a proper level of service be provided.

I will have my own expression of opinion.

The dental services have, perhaps, suffered more than most areas of the community care service since this Government came to office. Over 80,000 people — 40,000 children and 40,000 adults — are waiting for dental service. While the children may get service in 18 months, some of the adults will never get a service because the health board public dental service has been abolished for adults in certain areas. Yet the Minister can tell us tonight that not only is he satisfied and quite confident that there is enough money to provide the necessary services but that the health boards will be in a position to redeploy money to create new services. At the same time the statutory service which the health boards are obliged to provide, namely a dental service, is not being delivered. I have suggested in my area that the health board should announce publicly that they are not in a position to deliver the health service and should advise people, certainly the parents of young children, to sell something in the house and get a child's tooth filled rather than put that child on a waiting list and wait until the tooth is so carious that it has to be extracted. A widow came to me at my political clinic who had two children, one of whom, a 15-year-old daughter, had carious teeth but could not avail of a dental service because no such service was available due to the rundown over the past two years.

The position regarding orthodontists is the same. There were advertisements for five orthodontists for five health boards. I recognise that there were not applicants for them all but nevertheless I do not understand why there were not advertisements for the eight health boards. Perhaps that would have been more successful.

The sight-testing scheme is in much the same state as the dental scheme. An elderly person living alone who uses spectacles to watch television or read a book is in a very serious situation if he or she breaks the spectacles and cannot have them repaired because there is no service. This is the position. Yet we are told there is money to maintain the essential fabric of the services.

There are long delays in the hearing services. In conjunction with his colleague, the Minister for the Environment, the Minister might consider introducing legislation to deal with the high level of noise. I have no doubt that there is a diminution in the level of hearing of many people as a result of noise. I wonder if the noise level in such places as disco halls has ever been assessed and if any thought has been given to legislating to control that noise.

What would the Deputy suggest in that area?

I would suggest a maximum number of decibels above which it would be illegal to make sound. I am satisfied that hearing is being damaged by high levels of noise. It is possibly one of these areas where there is a difficulty because it is not directly a responsibility of the Department of Health and more the responsibility of the Department of the Environment. Nevertheless it would be unfortunate if something were not done simply because two Departments were involved. It is a question which should be tackled fairly soon.

Obviously the Minister of State is not a frequenter of discos.

Not at this stage.

The community welfare services account for approximately 8 per cent of the Health Estimate. It is important when talking about the cost of health services and the proportion of GNP spent in this area to recognise that this figure is not included in other EC countries, so we would have to reduce that figure from the GNP to find a comparable figure with other EC countries. I would ask the Minister to see if the mobility and domiciliary allowances could be applied a little more liberally, particularly in families where there are hardships.

The free fuel scheme is not the responsibility of the Minister for Health. Nevertheless the health board operate the scheme on behalf of the Minister for Social Welfare and he should look at the system of appeal, because the Ombudsman will be very busy unless a proper system of appeals is introduced into the health board system. It appears that the superintendent community welfare officer who makes the decision on the first occasion is also the appeals officer and it is important, now that the Ombudsman has assumed responsibility for certain functions of the health boards, that the health boards should have a proper appeals procedure.

Voluntary bodies have suffered over the last few years because they have not got increases to keep them abreast of inflation. This is a tragedy because it is important socially to encourage voluntary bodies to look after the less well off in their communities. The National Council for the Blind and the Social Services Council, who provide meals-on-wheels, should get support; but unfortunately, because it is a non-statutory service, it is the first to suffer at the hands of health boards who do not have money and, as I said earlier, all the health boards are in deficit.

The elderly make up 369,000 persons over 65 years of age and of course the ideal environment for them is in their own communities. We should be making some effort to develop the community care services. The housing scheme for the elderly operated by the health boards is also worthy of support and much good work has been done through that scheme, which should be continued.

I should like to see physicians for geriatrics as part of a community care team rather than as part of a hospital team. Perhaps there could be limited home visitations because I am concerned that the system of admission to many of the residential care centres for the elderly leaves a lot to be desired in that the people making the decision never see the patients and work on the basis of information supplied on a form. It would improve the service considerably for elderly people if the geriatrician was a member of the community care team. Perhaps someone — not necessarily a person with a high qualification — could be appointed to the larger homes for old people. These could be doctors working in the GMS who could provide the service on a part time basis. Perhaps too doctors could be appointed who do not work in the GMS but who would pay domiciliary visits to the elderly when requested to do so.

We would certainly support the development of more day hospitals and day care systems. Has any thought been given to setting up a school of chiropody because one of the most important ways in which we can help the elderly is to keep them mobile. One way of doing that is to ensure that there is a proper chiropody service. Many people are incapacitated by poor foot conditions as a result of reduced circulation, diabetes and so on. If we had a properly developed chiropody service available there would be a saving in terms of the number of persons who suffer serious incapacity, including amputation, as a result of bad circulation. Recently I visited the Mater Hospital and I was amazed at the numbers of persons chronically ill in one ward who were taking up acute medical beds, the most expensive in the country. They had had amputations because of poor circulation.

The Minister told us that the Government would be providing some resources for projects for the elderly and I should like him to tell us what these are. There is a serious problem in relation to residential places for adult mentally handicapped and I should like to know if the Minister has any plans for these people. I know that he improved the services for the mentally handicapped but there are still many problems. For instance, the mentally handicapped are discharged at 18 years of age and often go home to elderly parents who are not able to look after them. There are no places which cater for these people.

With regard to community care, it is sad to see so many buildings left unopened because of insufficient staff. I refer to Cootehill in my own constituency where there is a hostel for 12 mentally handicapped children who would benefit from attendance at the school for mentally handicapped in Cootehill but unfortunately the hostel has not been opened. It has been built for over two years but the health board are not in a position to staff it. It is a sad reflection on our health services that we spend capital money on providing these facilities without bothering to staff them.

In relation to the European Social Fund, I should like to ask why the allocation to the health boards has been reduced so considerably this year. Apparently the Minister or his Department did not have an input into how the money would be spent. It appears that the Minister for Labour and the Minister for Finance made the decisions on this occasion and that the health boards will get approximately half of what they received in previous years.

I welcome the report on the psychiatric services and the emphasis on the shift to community care. However, there are 6,000 psychiatric nurses and only about 150 of them work in the community. More could and should be done to have these nurses working in the community. We welcome the idea of smaller psychiatric units in general hospitals and the idea of sectors of up to 25,000 as outlined in the report. If we are going to develop community psychiatric services, it is important to recognise that it will not save money. It is a myth that if you provide medical services in the community it will cost a lot less than in hospitals and people are now beginning to realise that it is just as expensive to provide services in the community. There would be a spin off to other people in the community if more services were available. It is important that we do not start discharging people from psychiatric hospitals into community care services that do not have the facilities for them. A lot has been written about the experience in Italy and the United State where the discharged people are now congregating in areas of the big cities and are not being adequately looked after.

I should like to ask the Minister to look at the whole question of nurse training. At St. Davnets there has not been any nurse training for the last three years. A serious problem will arise if too much time elapses before nurse training is reintroduced. Another area that needs to be dealt with — it is similar to the problem of noise — is the whole question of alcoholism and excessive drinking. There are so many Departments involved that at times it is difficult to get the right policy organised and implemented. Since the Estimate was debated last year there have been reports by the Irish Management Institute on absenteeism. The problem is quite frightening. The Department, in conjunction with other Departments, should formulate a proper policy to ensure we save people from the serious problems created by excessive drinking.

With regard to the acute hospital side, we have referred to the closures, reduction in staff numbers and in weekend and locum cover, which are all creating problems. Every day we read in our newspapers of more problems. According to today's newspapers the International Missionary Hospital in Drogheda has, for the first time since it was opened, closed 50 beds. The authorities at the hospital are concerned about that. They have written to consultants and asked them to reduce their clinics by one per week because of overcrowding. Inevitably, this must have an effect on the level and quality of health care to be provided. Those with access to health care will be all right but others will be denied access to the health care they need.

The Minister spent some time on the question of Beaumont and transfers to that hospital. I do not have any doubt that there is a fundamental ideology at the back of this. The Minister's predecessors, the leader of our party, Deputy Haughey, and Deputy Woods, agreed to allow the consultants have a private hospital on the grounds at Beaumont. The Minister suggested that they succumbed to pressure from vested interests. I suggest that they had a very positive approach to the problem. They had concern for the public patients who would be attending Beaumont Hospital. I do not have the slightest doubt that it is in the best interest of the public patients that the doctors should be on the campus for as long as possible during the day. Tonight the Minister told us that he did not mind where the consultants erected their private hospital as long as they did not build it on publicly owned land. I would be very concerned where they build it. I want to avoid what happens in some parts of Dublin. If I were a public patient in Beaumont and had surgery this morning I would not want the consultant to be operating in the private nursing home at St. Michael's Dun Laoghaire, in the afternoon. I would like to think that the surgeon was across the lawn on the campus at Beaumont. That makes very sound sense by whatever standard one judges it.

At no stage did the consultants ask that they be provided with a facility out of public funds that they were not prepared to pay for. They were prepared to lease or buy the land and erect the private hospital themselves. It is important to recognise that we do not have a full and free comprehensive nationalised health service. There is a section of the community, approximately 20 per cent——

That is no excuse for having a two-tiered system.

It was not Fianna Fáil who introduced the two-tiered system. The Minister is not doing anything to get rid of the two-tiered system because if he was he would be advocating a nationalised health service similar to that which operates in the UK with everybody having a free comprehensive service. The integrated system of private and public health care has served the country very well. I am concerned that, if we continue to go in the direction the Minister is going, we will polarise private and public medical care into two compartments.

Why then does the Deputy want a private hospital built? That is polarisation.

Public patients will suffer. There is a clinic in Blackrock and if the Minister succeeds in polarising public and private medical care consultants, particularly those in specialties where they are in short supply, will opt for private medical care. Who will suffer? If the cardiac surgeons opt for private medical care who will suffer? The private patients will not suffer but the public patients will lose access to those top consultants who are in scarce supply. It is important that we do not do anything to damage what has been a very successful system in the interests of public patients. The private patients are able to provide for themselves and will be able to follow the consultants for their private treatment.

Do the private patients come first?

The Minister will have time to reply.

The Deputy should ask the people what happens when one goes into a hospital?

I deprecate very much Members conducting a debate across the floor of the House with two Deputies speaking at the same time. That will not be tolerated.

We are both in the VHI.

We have to be in the VHI because there is no nationalised health service here. It is a mistake that it is not being accepted that there has to be a system to cater for private patients because our health service is not a full, free and comprehensive one for everybody in the community.

The Minister has driven the public patients out of the VHI.

This is a confined debate and I insist that there should not be any interruptions from either side of the House.

I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the position because there is no doubt that it is in the interests of the public patients who will be occupying beds in Beaumont Hospital that the consultants be on the campus as long as possible every day. There would not be any loss to the Exchequer. In fact, there would be an income to the Exchequer from the consultants building their own private hospital. The Minister should allow them do that. He would also save a further 70 or 80 beds which he intends to give away in the public hospital. Those beds would then be available for public patients.

When one considers that only one major hospital is available on the north side of the city one will realise how essential it is that sufficient public beds are available in that area. Blanchardstown was to be developed into a major hospital but, obviously, the Minister has not any plans to deal with that matter in the near future.

The Minister met the medical organisation on the question of charges to consultants for the use of equipment in public hospitals. That will put an extra charge on the consumer because if it is implemented, which I doubt, the consultants will transfer the charge to the consumer. Many of the consultants are already paying a contribution towards the use of the equipment in hospitals. The equipment has been paid for out of taxpayers' money but the public will be asked to pay extra money for the use of that equipment if they are hospitalised. A person has a right to private health care if they wish. By introducing all these charges, and because of the massive increase in charges for accommodation in health board hospitals, more and more people who are prepared to pay for their own health care are being forced back into the public sector. That sector is already overcrowded and, with a reduced allocation, is barely able to cope with the people they have full responsibility for. It is not the time to force this decision. It is interesting to note that the Minister met the professional organisations but was unable to reach agreement with them. He then gave a direction to the health boards to get in touch with the consultants, at a time when the consultants, like all the other health board staff, are doing their best to live within the reduced allocation. They are to be complimented for the way they have co-operated over the last two or three years.

We have the largest admission to hospital per 1,000 of any EC country. I have no doubt this is related to the poor development of our community care services and our hospital outpatient services. I ask the Minister to have a serious look at the outpatient facilities. In the North Infirmary in Cork there is only one room and the surgeon and patient are in that room. The surgeon is a highly paid technical person and if there were two or three dressingrooms he could increase his throughput. I would ask the Minister to look in terms of capital expenditure at improving the outpatient facilities and the range of services available in hospitals.

I would like to see an examination of return visits to hospitals, combined care, which is a feature of the maternity hospitals. If such a scheme were implemented it might reduce the number of people going back to outpatients departments. Many health boards will not pay for pathology services for persons who hold a hospital services card, if the test is sent by the family doctor. This means that if a person cannot afford to pay £30 for a test to be carried out, he will be sent to the outpatients department of the hospital and many tests will be carried out at much greater expense to the health boards. We must ensure that the patient gets the proper level of services. This area needs to be looked at because it should not be more attractive financially for patients to go to hospitals.

It is necessary that hospitals develop their information and management information systems in the interest of more efficiency. What is happening in the computer controversy? Has there been a change of decision in the Department? The Minister referred to the Supreme Court decision on Monaghan Hospital. The health board received a letter telling them they would have to close and dispose of the hospital before the Minister would sign the contract for Cavan. The health board held firm and said they wanted to retain the Monaghan Hospital. In my view, they were in the best position to judge what was right but the Minister took the board to Dublin and informed them he was going to close the maternity unit. I ask him to reverse that decision. It may be necessary to change the legislation in some areas but it should not be necessary to change it in relation to Monaghan. It would create a great deal of goodwill if he accepted that the maternity unit should not be closed.

The Minister closed the maternity hospital in Bantry and promised the people they would have ante-natal clinics in Bantry with consultants coming from Cork. Now two years later, they have no ante-natal clinics and people in Castle-townbere are 110 miles from the nearest maternity hospital, the same distance from Nenagh to Dublin except that the roads are not so good in West Cork. This is totally unacceptable. I want to know why the Minister did not honour his commitment to provide the ante-natal clinics in Bantry. I know the consultants would not go from Cork to Bantry, and I would have to agree with them, because while an orthopaedic consultant does not have a contract to be available if somebody breaks a leg, an obstetrician has a contract to be available if a women is in labour. He cannot be 60 miles away at an ante-natal clinic. I ask the Minister what he intends to do about the Bantry problem.

The Minister wrote to the health boards and told them they could retain any further health contributions they collected. Over the last year they made an effort to collect the outstanding health contributions but, unfortunately for them, they sent them to the Department. Would the Minister return the contributions they collected for last year?

I do not understand why the Minister is amalgamating the Medico Social Research Board and the Medical Research Council. I have reservations about that amalgamation and about bringing them directly into the Department of Health. Those bodies carry out two different functions. The Medico Social Research Board over the years have built up a confidence with professional people who are committed to confidentiality. I believe that if the board are brought into the Department, that confidence may be eroded and the same type of information may not be forthcoming. That board are a semi-independent, semi-State body and have the confidence of the professional people, but they are not subject to the direct influence of the Minister for Health. I believe that by bringing these bodies into the Department the Minister may have a direct influence. It could happen that an assessment they were going to carry out might not be politically right and the Minister might not give his approval. I wonder if this is a wise move.

The Voluntary Health Insurance Board is a consumer organisation with about 330,000 subscribers. I wonder if, in any contemplated changes in the legislation, the Minister will take their views into account. Chapter 3 of Comhairle na nOspidéal's last report makes sorry reading. It deals with their difficulties with the Minister and what they believe was an infringement on their statutory obligations because the Department of Health have to be informed and have to give sanction for appointments.

We are still concerned about the appointments system of trainee student nurses whereby the training hospital would not have an input into their selection. This is a matter of concern to many of the training schools.

Certainly the food and hygiene regulations need to be updated. I should like to see a public slaughterhouse run by some public Department, where all slaughtering would be carried out under proper control.

I ask the Minister when the study on leukaemia and the effects of Sellafield, formerly Windscale will be completed and available. Also, what talks or contact have the Minister's Department had with the various local authorities in relation to settling the travelling people and what sort of co-operation is he receiving? What positive arrangements have been made for the homeless? In previous Estimates, the Minister told the House that a Green Paper on the health services was imminent. In this Estimate he has not mentioned that. Can we expect a Green Paper on the whole future of the health services and, if so, when?

From the document, Building on Reality, I quote as follows:

The Government remain fully committed to fulfilling the social obligation which society owes to all who may find themselves in need of health care. Health services will be available either free or at tolerable levels of cost to all those who need them.

I submit that this is very far, indeed, from the reality with which we are faced today, where services, and indeed statutory services which should be available, are not available. People who are unable to provide services for themselves are being denied them.

The Minister has alienated himself from many of the health boards. In fact, one, the Western Health Board, went so far as to call for his resignation.

That would not surprise the Deputy now, would it?

I know that the Minister of State had nothing to do with that. Talking about resignations, the Minister told us earlier this evening that he would not be resigning——

Not for a long time yet.

——over his threat to close the Richmond Hospital. That is a very serious threat to the Minister. The Richmond Hospital have the only major brain surgery unit in this country. Many who suffer head injuries as a result of car accidents, brain tumours, or brain haemorrhages depend on that hospital. If any Minister were to close a hospital which contained such a brain unit, that Minister should resign. He went on to tell us that the next General Election would be on the second Thursday in October, 1987. Perhaps if the Taoiseach hears that he is pre-empted by that announcement, he might ask the Minister to resign.

No, we get on quite well together.

Well, when the Taoiseach hears that he told us the date of the next General Election——

He is not like Deputy Haughey. He does not even tell us who is to be the next Lord Mayor. Is Deputy O'Connell going to be the next Lord Mayor? Is he in favour for that position now?

That does not arise in this debate.

It is the Taoiseach's prerogative to tell us the date of the next General Election. The Ceann Comhairle was not here at the time and might not know when that date will be.

It would be an important thing for the Ceann Comhairle to know too.

This is a democratic Coalition, not an oligarchy.

The Ceann Comhairle does not have to worry.

Order, please. There are only a few moments left.

Because of the manner in which the Minister has approached the whole question of the cutbacks, the morale of the staff working in the health boards has been reduced. I call on him to re-establish good relations with the boards. It is fundamental to the proper running of the health services. Would he also try to restore the morale among the personnel working in the health services by admitting that Government policies have failed and by calling a halt to the present dismantling of the health services?

The Minister of State has ten minutes.

It has been and will continue to be the policy of this Government to maintain a health service for our people which provides access to all, irrespective of means, to the highest possible standard of treatment and care. That as a society we have succeeded in bringing the health of our population and the health services we provide up to the accepted standards in developed countries is implicit in any comparison of international indicators of health and health services.

In 1985, net expenditure on the health services will amount to £1,122 million. In addition, there will be capital expenditure of £58 million to develop hospitals and other facilities. This massive provision represents almost 20 per cent of the entire Exchequer provision for non-capital public services. The health services now employ in the region of 58,000 people and provide a wide and sophisticated range of services. Given the limited resources available, our health services are by and large very good, both in facilities and in the competence of the staffs employed.

The health services do not get enough of those resources.

There would never be enough of them from the Deputy's point of view. Deputy O'Hanlon spent approximately £200 million in the course of an hour and a half.

On what did I spend it?

The Minister of State should not invite interruptions, nor should there be interruptions.

The present serious constraints on the growth of public expenditure have drawn disproportionate attention to the adjustments now necessary in our health services. This is understandable, given the legacy of inflated expectations arising from the major growth which occurred in the range and scope of these services over the last 15 years. It also deflects attention from the very real and steady progress which is being made, in spite of the financial constraints, in improving and developing the services.

The reality with which we are now faced is that public services generally must be provided within certain limits. We have passed the stage where Government can be irresponsible about spending targets and simply expand the volume of spending to accommodate every special interest group looking for this or that concession. To have continued down that path was to invite economic disaster and ultimately the possibility of much more stringent controls on public spending.

And we developed the five-day syndrome.

This is the policy which the Fianna Fáil Party in Government pursued, while not realising it. They were in Government and that created the problems that exist today.

As every householder knows, it is not possible to live continuously beyond one's means. To attempt to do so is to invite the wrath of one's bank manager and in this respect an economy is no different from a private householder, although the Opposition do not seem to understand that.

Tell that to the medical card holder on 1 November when there are no longer facilities available.

What this Government have set out to do — and succeeded in doing, to judge by the recent returns on Government spending, is to cut their cloth according to their measure. We have decided, given the many pressing demands for public services and the limits on our available resources, what the maximum appropriate spending on health services in 1985 will be. Since the beginning of the year, considerable efforts by the Department of Health and the health agencies have been devoted to ensuring that spending will not exceed this level, while at the same time maintaining essential standards of service to patients and clients.

Tell that to the medical card holders. The Government are dismantling the health services.

Though the amount of money available is limited, let us be quite clear that it is still an enormous investment of resources. We are talking here of a level of net non-capital expenditure corresponding to almost £22 million each week during 1985. This huge investment is a clear demonstration of this Government's commitment to maintaining the high level of health service provision which this country is fortunate enough to enjoy.

There is a disquieting over-emphasis on the Opposition benches on the negative impact of what they see as cutbacks in health services. Yet, where is the evidence of the negative impact on health of the tighter management of health services? After all, this is the primary objective of our health care system. Despite the callous shroud-waving, the critics of this more responsible approach to health service management have been singularly unsuccessful in producing any hard evidence to support the general accusations and allegations they make.

There is, in fact, a very positive side to controlling the growth in health spending. In a large and complex organisation which grew so rapidly and in so unconstrained a fashion during the late sixties and early seventies there was undoubtedly scope for efficiency improvements. There has been a major effort in the last couple of years to eliminate inefficiencies and by so doing to ensure that the best value is obtained for every pound of taxpayer's money which is spent on the health services. This process of seeking out and eliminating any remaining areas of inefficiency will continue, at least while this Government are in office. If by some accident there is a change of Government, I presume we will go on a spending spree again. Given the limits on total resources and the obvious need for development of services in some areas, few will disagree with the logic of cutting out any waste and redeploying resources to worthwhile developments.

The Government are committed to look after geriatric patients but we cannot open a geriatric unit.

The Minister of State has only a few minutes left. The Deputy should allow him to speak without interruption.

What has happened at Ardkeen is a classic example of the way the Government act.

In this context, then, new or extended services can only be provided by way of redeployment of resources from other areas either by way of saving or reducing and eliminating services which are perceived to be of a lower priority. In future, then, agencies will have to identify and specify the resources which they are in a position to redeploy when they are considering plans for developments.

There has been considerable controversy of late about opening some new units which have been completed in the recent past but which have not been opened. In my own area, for example, we have had the long running saga of the new maternity unit at Galway Regional Hospital. This unit was provided to relieve overcrowding in the existing unit and, while it will be dealing with the same number of births as the old unit, the Western Health Board were looking for 75 additional head staff and in excess of £800,000 per year to open it.

In the present difficult budgetary situation there simply is no way that additional resources could be provided on such a scale. The board were asked repeatedly to re-examine their request and to identify resources which they could redeploy to open this much needed facility for the mothers of Galway but I regret to say that the response was very disappointing. In a genuine and very sincere effort to relieve the situation and to assist the board in the obviously difficult task which they had, the Minister made available £2000,000 last May to enable the unit to be opened. I regret to have to say that despite this the unit is still not opened nor is there any indication about when it is likely to open.

The local elections are over now.

One must take into consideration the numbers employed in the Western Health Board in recent years. For instance, in 1974 a total of 4,295 people were employed by the board and today that figure is 6,348. Yet, the Western Health Board cannot redeploy. The question must be asked why the board needed so many additional staff in the intervening years.

I call on the Minister of State to conclude.

The Minister has given me a few minutes of his time to finish my contribution. There has been more than an additional 2,000 staff in a few years but yet the board cannot redeploy.

When we tried to redeploy in the South Eastern Board we were told we could not do it.

At the same time the board were looking for additional resources to commission the new CAT scanner which is being installed in Galway.

The Government did nothing——

Order. The Deputy should behave himself.

There is little doubt that this facility is needed. It will bring considerable medical benefits to the people of the west and will result in some financial savings to the board. We have again asked the board to see if some resources could be redeployed for this purpose and to quantify the savings which would accrue by bringing the scanner into use. Again, I regret to say the response has been very disappointing and negative.

If the Deputies wish to know a little more about the CAT scanner I will give them some information. In 1981 it was No.4 on the priority list. A member of the Fianna Fáil Party made the decision to provide a sum of £750,000 for its purchase. What the public, this House and the press do not know is that the agent who sold the scanner was an election agent for a very prominent Fianna Fáil man in Dublin, now an ex-Member of Leinster House. To pinpoint it a little more, he is a Member of the European Parliament at the moment.

Is the Minister of State saying that there should not be a CAT scanner in Galway?

The Western Health Board have numerous plans for developments and extensions to services but they will have to realise that these plans cannot be implemented unless resources can be redeployed to finance them. There is no point in having grandiose plans that we cannot afford. The board should consider seriously and re-evaluate all the services they are providing to see if they could be provided more efficiently, or if all of them are needed on the present scale. I would not be at all surprised if such a review indicated several opportunities for savings and perhaps even the closure of a hospital.

The Regional Hospital in Galway?

If the Deputy wants to say that, he can go ahead and do so. He need not worry, the Regional Hospital is solid and safe. If we are to advance and take maximum advantage of new technologies and practices, we will have to phase out services and facilities which are of doubtful value. This is a general principle which applies not only to the Western Health Board but to all health agencies funded from the public purse.

The Minister has less than ten minutes to speak.

I thank the Chair.

It is a matter for the Minister for Health.

He has allowed me time to continue.

Between you be it.

We are spending £12 million on a new hospital in Castlebar. That is the birthplace of the Leader of the Opposition, but all he could offer was £100,000. If members of the Western Health Board applied themselves to the task on hand——

It is obvious that the local elections are over.

They are not doing their job at the moment and I refer in particular to one ministerial appointment. I am speaking of one individual from the medical profession who never attends a health board meeting but he is available for comment to the papers and television after the meetings. They passed a vote of no confidence in the Minister for Health and they can go ahead and pass another vote if they wish. It does not matter that much. If they did the job they were supposed to do they would have more to do than pass votes of no confidence in the Minister.

In 1987 they will pass one on the Deputy.

The number of people employed in the health services in 1970 was 40,000 and today it is almost 50,000. The cost of the health services in 1973 was £143 million and today it is £1,200 million. The number of people is greater than ever before and the cost is greater but still the Opposition complain.

The service is not better.

It is like the promises the Opposition made during the recent election. If the health services were to be expanded in the manner they promised it would cost an extra £300 million. Where will they get the money from?

What about the five regional hospitals?

(Interruptions).

I am bound by Standing Orders.

I am sorry I did not get an opportunity to hear the Deputy.

I did not have an opportunity because I had to listen to the nonsense that emanated from the Minister of State. He purports to be a Minister of State but he is a disgrace to the House.

(Interruptions).

I am bound by an Order of the House. The Minister for Health must conclude.

I should like to make a few brief comments on the observations of Deputies.

He took up half the time of this debate and now he wants to grab the rest.

I am bound by an Order of the House and no one should know that better than Deputy O'Connell.

There was no order made that I was not allowed to speak tonight.

The Deputy should behave himself. An Order was made here today and the Deputy agreed to it.

Also, by agreement, the proceedings on Vote 47 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 12 o'clock midnight and the Minister for Health shall be called upon to conclude not later than 11.45 p.m.

He took up half the time of the debate.

The Deputy should be rational. The Chair has nothing to do with the Order that was made.

The Minister took up one and a half hours giving figures which he has trotted out on a number of occasions.

I hope that when the Deputy reflects on the matter he will come to the conclusion that he has behaved rather badly.

Far from it.

In relation to Beaumont Hospital we should try to keep a sense of perspective and balance in our assessment of the position. I am at a loss to understand why there is a preoccupation with the building of a large number of private beds in a separate building on the Beaumont campus. There are no private beds in the Richmond Hospital and no one has complained. No consultant has complained. There are private consulting rooms in the Richmond and a portakabin.

There are private beds.

I have been through Jervis Street Hospital and have seen the private beds there. It is a very old house and the beds are in an old building on the side of the street. No one has complained that Jervis Street Hospital services were being destroyed because they did not have an adequate number of private beds. The phenomenon of private beds arose because when Deputies Haughey and Woods met the senior consultant staff they could not give them things quickly enough.

Is the Minister faulting them because they wanted to improve the service?

They could not give them promises quickly enough or land fast enough to palaver them.

They were to pay for it and for the hospital.

We are providing up to 85 beds for private patients within the hospital and the money from those beds will go into the budget of Beaumont. We are talking about £3 million a year maintenance costs for those beds and that money should not go into a private company which is on public land but owned exclusively by medical consultants.

The Minister is depriving 70 public patients of those beds every day.

I object to handing over £3 million, which is the amount of money which would come from those beds——

This is nonsense.

——to a private company. This hospital is not just a public hospital. It is a teaching hospital in which there would be a major presence of professorial staff and staff from the Royal College of Surgeons. There is no question of consultants running away from the hospital and not being available for public patients just because they have private patients. The private patients will be within the hospital, as will medical students. It is a major Royal College of Surgeons teaching hospital and should be kept together on an integrated coordinated basis. Are Deputies O'Hanlon, Ormonde and O'Connell seriously suggesting that the neurosurgical facilities of the Richmond Hospital would not be better in Beaumont? There are no private beds in the Richmond but there might be some in Beaumont.

There are private beds in the Richmond.

It would be a travesty of medical reaction if they were not prepared to support that.

The Minister's socialist ideology is totally out of touch with reality.

(Interruptions.)

If we want an integrated service it is appropriate that those who must discharge their common contracts for public patients do so in one location and not trot from a private hospital into a public hospital.

The Minister said they could build a private hospital anywhere they liked as long as it was not on the land at Beaumont.

The Minister is as illogical as he is perverse.

The Minister is doing a U-turn.

The question of a private company leasing land or being given land with services having to be provided from the main hospital, speciality beds being provided on the private side and people having to go from the private hospital to use beds in the other hospital would lead to a lack of co-ordination. Private companies have a notorious habit of coming and going.

It would not cost the State one penny.

Consultants are known to fall out with one another. In the heel of the hunt if the private company goes bang who picks up the tab? It is the taxpayer. As Deputies well know, running a private hospital is extremely expensive and having the prospect of that around a public hospital is not something to be generally encouraged. Leaving aside the allegations of a particularly perverse ideological attitude on my part——

Perverse is right.

——I am prepared to enter into negotiations with all the interests concerned. I have no doubt that sense will prevail and that this major facility for Dublin will be opened on a rational basis.

What about the 22 unions? Will the Minister talk to them?

During the debate I listened to Deputy O'Hanlon list out the inefficiencies and inadequacies of the health services. His requirements would cost in the region of £120 million but he did not offer a shred of a suggestion as to how existing services might be better used. It is the old story of spend more. That is not a solution. I throw out a simple challenge. I do not know of any patient who is denied acute medical care where that care is necessary. If people are in casualty for 15 hours I would ask seriously who is organising that casualty unit? Why should a patient be left for that length of time in a casualty unit?

Because there are no beds available. They are all occupied.

I must put the question.

Is that really the story?

In the Western Health Board area 300 beds have been lost.

The people opposite should not depend on anecdotal nonsense written by people in a fit of pique and which appears, not in editorials in The Irish Times but in the letter columns of that paper. The matter deserves more serious treatment than that.

What about the Minister's fellow member of the ITGWU in Cork last week?

Question put and declared carried.
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